Exar is definitely the most impressive Sith up to his time, but I think that even Revan or Bane sort of surpassed him in might and greatness.
Revan is definitely up there. Though, as for Bane being stronger than the Sith of Kun's lineage, you must understand that Lineage contained individuals such as Freedon Nadd.
And we know that Nadd traveled to Onderon and conquered the planet one-man-army-style, defeating an army of beast riders in the process. You know: The guys that ride on drexls, these gigantic flying beasts that are highly resistant against force influence, so that one of them almost killed Darth Bane. Nadd defeated an army of that on his own. Give me a call, when Bane (or Sidious for that matter) goes on a rampage against a foe like that, and spends his days after that with blaster target practice using Jedi as targets (as Nadd did, when the KotoR codex entry on his blaster gun is correct).
And of course, the creator of the Ancient sith Kevin Anderson, has personally confirmed Exar Kun is the strongest Sith of his lineage.
Let's be truthful @wollfmyth209. You won't address the aforementioned reasons because you can't refute the points made. Fair enough. And hey, if Sidious is your favorite character, then I understand it's a sour subject when one's favorite isn't deemed invincible in every thread they're featured in.
@noobsnowman: Sidious is not creating a wormhole in under a second for a opening manuver in a battle without some prep.
Please note that Palpatine as of ROTS isn't fully capable of controlling Force storms in any significant measure, much less to use it in a direct conflict. But if we're comparing a full powered Sidious-clone of the Dark Empire series, to a comparably weakened version of Kun against an opponent they've faced before. Sidious is unable to breach Luke's innate Force shield with an attack of his own, yet...
Exar Kun joined the attack, adding more deadly force. The ancient Dark Lord of the Sith lashed out with waves of blackness, driving long icicles of frozen poison into Luke's body.He thrashed, but felt helpless. To lose control to anger and desperation would be as great a failure as if he did nothing at all. Luke called upon the powers that Yoda and Obi-Wan had taught him - but everything he did, every skillful technique, failed utterly."
It's pretty clear why Tom Veitch, the creator of Dark Empire believes that Kun is slightly stronger than Sidious.
Exar Kun has a decent chance of at least making it a battle and not a rag doll fest.
I'd say a ragdoll is very unlikely. In fact, and repeating what I said earlier - In case you still think, that Sidious will even be capable of utilizing the force in a offensive fashion, you may want to check Kun's force defense. Being attacked with "the most devastating attack possible using the powers of the light side" (Odan-Urr, Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, p.81), he merely recovers in split-seconds to kill his assailant:
Odan Urr attempts to attack first, fails and then tries to defend himself and fails once more. Give me a call when Sidious successfully defends himself against advanced force techniques and manages to overpower people actively defending themselves, other than Maul and Savage.
Of course, If you weren't aware of how powerful Odan Urr was alreadyThe Power of the Jedi Sourcebook states he's the Yoda of his time.
I hope it's clear why I don't see Sidious winning this.
I agree Exar is extremely formidable. You make a strong case, I'm curious of the speed comparison myself, I'll check it out. I still think Sidious takes a slight majority. But I like your post and reasons why Kun should win, nicely done.
I've said before that I don't consider "force speed" feats to be impressive, due to the fact that pretty much every character i capable of using such. It's a very very basic ability and the respective instances of use are hardly comparable.
Is Luke in Shadows of the Empire (between ESB and ROTJ) "faster" than anybody else already, because he sees the motions of a super-humanly fast Assassination droid in "slow motion" while using force speed in an involuntary instance (it just happened to him)? Is Mace the fastest, because his movements are "invisible" in contrast to the "lightning fast" movement speed of Kar Vastor? Is Bane the fastest, who can move so fast that time appears to have stopped for him?
I find it hilarious to compare those speed feats, since - obviously - the characters are all capable of applying them on a certain level and it is rarely a deciding factor in fights. What I find rather laughable is the suggestion, that Sidious must be faster than everyone else, based on just this alone:
He turned desperately to Saesee Tiin. "Master Tiin – you're the telepath. What am I thinking right now?" Tiin frowned and cocked his head. His blade dipped. A smear of red-flashing darkness hurtled from behind the desk. Saesee Tiin's head bounced when it hit the floor. Smoke curled from the neck, and from the twin stumps ofthe horns, severed just below the chin.
Kit Fisto gasped, "Saesee!"
The headless corpse, still standing, twisted as its knees buckled, and a thin sigh escaped from its trachea as it folded to the floor.
"It doesn't..." Agen Kolar swayed. His emerald blade shrank away, and the handgrip tumbled from his opening fingers. A small, neat hole in the middle of his forehead leaked smoke, showing light from the back of his head."... hurt..."
He pitched forward onto his face, and lay still.
Mathew Stover: Star Wars Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith, Chapter 17.
He actively encourages Tiin to read his mind and then capitalizes on the distraction of the Jedi Master(s). And while this might seem very fast (and probably was), you may want to take a close look at the fact that Fisto can say "Saesee" and the body has time to collapse to the floor, before Kolar gets hit as the second victim of Sidious surprise attack with a previously concealed weapon. Fisto, unlike his comparatives is able to block 3 strikes pertaining to the film, and last a fair bit longer in the novel adaptation before he's slain; despite favoring a form that almost utterly abandons defense.
While Fisto is clearly a master swordsman in his own era. I wouldn't say he's any better than Warb Null benefiting from a fairly potent darkside enriched environment boosting his abilities, who's both skilled and fast enough to hold off a band of 4 Jedi in one instance. And what is Ulic's response to Null's obvious talent:
It's already established that the aforementioned battle took place on a darkside enriched environment (read:nexus), meaning Ulic as a Jedi apprentice would be performing to a lesser extent than in normal conditions. If that wasn't enough, Warb Null diminishes his ability further by pressing a wall of dark force against his opponent. Yet in the next panel...
Role call:
Ulic is a Jedi Apprentice and not anywhere near his prime as a Sith Lord
He's is being actively drained by Iziz, while it's only logical to assume his darkside adversaries receive a boost
Warb Nulluses his power to weaken Ulic further, but is only able to block a single strike
With some exceptions, Power in the Force = speed and reactions, and I've done more than enough to prove Kun is comparable to Sidious regarding raw potency. Of course, you may add Kun's lightsaber to the menu, which comes with adjustable blade length and even the intensity of the lightsaber beam, which enables him to strike through the weapons of possible opponents. And, of course, Kun is equiped with his battle armor, that is made of cortosis weave, a material that does resist lightsaber hits, with cortosis being known to be able of causing lightsabers to shorten out. That would at least allow Kun to care much less about getting hit than the people Sidious did encounter before, if not even leave Sidious without a weapon, should he manage to get a hit in on Kun.
Sidious is not creating a wormhole in under a second for a opening manuver in a battle without some prep.
True that it's not under a second, but he was capable of channeling it in the midst of combat.
Listen I never said Sidious would lose, I realize in my earlier post I said slight majority for Sidious but I meant STRONG majority,
No, Sidious wins this easily. I would say that he stomps.
but of all the Sith I think Exar Kun has a decent chance of at least making it a battle and not a rag doll fest.
There are Sith who can make it a battle, but Exar Kun is definitely not one of them.
Ahh Noobsnowman, I'm always appreciative of your stellar reasoning. Do I sense upset from Sidious' number 1 fan? Thanks for providing that huge amount of proof for your claims. Oh, wait. You didn't. You just assume that this is true, like every other Sidious fanboy. Yet, you can't prove any of it. So?
That was via force power, and this is a lightsaber duel.
That would be to assert force power isn't a factor in duels when it is one of the most, if not the most important facet regarding light saber combat. To suggest that Caedus can fence on par with someone who's hilariously more powerful then him in the Force, is to suggest that Caedus is more skilled. Which is pretty much impossible regarding every source that depicts them dating back to the Vong war. Luke's augmented physicals are better which is delineated during their fight, especially as Caedus is amped during said battle and Luke isn't.
Also, the logic that telekinetic force usage didn't relate to the latter confrontation is going to negatively affect your stance as a whole. Seen as Caedus needed to telekineticly pull himself toward a vong utensil to stop Luke from stabbing his chest, ending the confrontation in a very, very brief manner. But as you said this is a saber duel , he won't be afforded the luxury of such tactics. Of course, if I did allow force usage in this battle, then Caedus would be reduced to a charred husk anyway.
And Luke never tried to replicate that on their second due to massive PIS
Better.
Your lowballing is comical.
I'd like to re-frame that quip to yourself. In stating that Caedus has any parity to Luke regarding a duel or otherwise, is indeed a lowballing move on your part. You have nothing to back up this posture.
Caedus stalemated a bloodlusted Luke in a duel,
If a quote exists to assert, or even imply that this battle was a stalemate, please bring it to the attention of everyone. Otherwise your sophistical interpretation of this battle; as defective as it is, is your only form of evidence. And that's clearly not enough. If we're talking with respects to blade for blade in a prurient sense (as in what this battle is) Luke would have destroyed Caedus in a very, very brief duel.
At the beginning of their fight, Luke essentially has Caedus' number. He elbows Caedus, drops him to his knees, hits him with a knee to his chin, and then nearly finishes him off with a stab to the chest. At this point, Luke and his nephew have met blades twice.
Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been."
Inferno
BTW - Kit fisto managed to block 3 strikes from a BL'd Sidious.
And the environmental advantage hardly favours Caedus
Reaching, making excuses for what happed on paper and more reaching. As it stands the Caedus only managed to deal significant damage because of this advantage paired with Luke's prior injury. This advantage meant that had it not been there, Caedus would have died in the span of 3 strikes.
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