vuviper

I'm omniscient. Ask me anything

@venomoushatred1001 said:

Ms. Marvel speedblitzes.

How fast is she? Has she ever blitzed anyone before?

@Jezer said:

@vuviper said:

Knowing how to be able to doesn't mean he'd be able to gain the ability instantly without any training or preparations.

My argument is he could only know how to do it in no time at all if that were a possible thing to know.

No, because that would be assuming that the magic didn't work as soon as a speedster touched him. With no reaction or movement on his part. Remember, I said that this magic worked subsconsciously meaning he doesn't have to consciously activate it. Furthermore, that would be assuming that the magic didn't work instantaneously or faster than the speedster - magic that works on its own may not be limited to human speeds or human reaction times(since it doesnt have the limitation of a human body).

And the point isnt that his omniscience allows him these abilities, is that his omniscience allow that he may use these abilities through methods we can't ever know. So we can't count them out.

And, like I said, its completely possible that this omniscient person hypnotized or persuaded this person to agree to use X's as his side, but then when the game starts he tricks the person to play with O's(his side). Thus the omniscient person wins. Or, even simply, to convince the person that when he got three in a row, the omniscient person won instead of him.

See, you're missing my point. Which is that he may know these abilities through some knowledge gleamed by his omniscience. I'm not giving him these abilities, they are easy possibilities that may be true because this guy is omniscient. In other words, Mr Omniscient may know how to make a gun magically appear. He may know how one with his physical capabilities can do a backflip despite his lack of experience. In the case of our doubt on what an Omniscient person knows how to do, the omniscient person is essentially omnipotent.

Omniscient doesn't mean he has magic....

Omniscience does mean he'd know how to attain those abilities if it is possible to do so. And it would still require time.

He didn't win within the rules of the game. People are not allowed to use/draw other people's game piece.

I know what your point is, I just completely disagree with you. I never said that he can't make a gun appear but the fact that he knows how to use a gun does not by definition give him a gun. The fact that he knows how to beat a speedster does not give him the means to do so. Does he know how to obtain the means? Sure. But he is incapable of doing so without assigning abilities beyond knowledge and invulnerability.

@eisjfiejss said:

@vuviper said:

@eisjfiejss said:

@vuviper said:

In tic tac toe, it is impossible to not win with 7 moves. (As in there is no way you can place 7 pieces in a 3 by 3 grid and not get 3 in a row)

I think what Jezer means is that humans may think it is impossible to win with 7 moves, but that does not necessarily mean it is so. An omniscient being may well know how to win with less. We just can't comprehend how.

Yeah, I don't buy in to that haha

Sure. Everyone has their own opinion and you can remain with yours until someone convinces you otherwise..

mhm I'm fine with someone thinking omniscience means you can know unknowable things. Omniscience is a fictional concept anyway, which is impossible to describe in any kind of self consistent way. I choose to use it to describe knowing all there is to know.

@eisjfiejss said:

@vuviper said:

In tic tac toe, it is impossible to not win with 7 moves. (As in there is no way you can place 7 pieces in a 3 by 3 grid and not get 3 in a row)

I think what Jezer means is that humans may think it is impossible to win with 7 moves, but that does not necessarily mean it is so. An omniscient being may well know how to win with less. We just can't comprehend how.

Yeah, I don't buy in to that haha

@Jezer said:

@vuviper said:

No, because that's assuming he doesn't know a way to win regardless of his reaction time or any physical reaction being made on his part.

I mean, what if he knows subconscious magic that works to reflect any force against him back on the user? It's subconscious, so it doesn't work on his human perception(percieving the attack). It works regardless of the fact that he's a statue compared to the Speedster. And then the Speedster KO's themself.

These are the kind of possibilities that may exist, that he knows about, that we have no clue about since we're dumb humans of limited IQ who don't know everything.

My point is that you can argue that there may be a way to do literally anything - just that we simply don't know about, due to our lack of knowledge.

As for your game of tic tac toe: Suppose that the omniscient person knows how to win that by knowing how to get the person to defeat themselves? Supposed they know omniscient level hypnotic suggestion or psychology or the right words to say. Supposed he knows how to use Fantomex's misdirection, misdirecting the person into defeating themselves?

Well we weren't talking about magic, but even if his omniscience allowed him some ability that we today would see as magic, it still requires action and action requires time.

In tic tac toe, it is impossible to not win with 7 moves. (As in there is no way you can place 7 pieces in a 3 by 3 grid and not get 3 in a row)

If you're using omniscience to grant him abilities beyond the ones he's been given (Like use magic, or use misdirection) then you're starting to walk towards omnipotent. Knowing how to use sometime like magic or misdirection doesn't mean you can use it or have access to it. Mr Omniscient will know how to use a gun, but that doesn't mean one magically appears, he also knows how one does a backflip, but that doesn't mean he has the physical ability to do so.

@Shawnbaby said:

So, according to you guys then he has omniscience...but he isnt allowed to use it in anyway that would help him win the battle?

Essentially yes. Except it isn't that he isn't allowed to use it. But he has no way to utilize his omniscience before it is over

@eisjfiejss said:

@vuviper said:

You're not getting it. True, knowing how to do something does not equal to being able to, but the omniscient person would not only know how to do something, but also know how "to be able to".

Knowing how to be able to doesn't mean he'd be able to gain the ability instantly without any training or preparations.

My argument is he could only know how to do it in no time at all if that were a possible thing to know.

@Jezer said:

@The Man of Yesteryear said:

@Jezer: Perhaps for the sake of this battle omniscience should be defined as "knowing everything possible?"

Yeah.

But even then, one can always argue that just because we(limited knowledge and intelligence) can't think of a way for an omniscient person to win under these conditions,

it doesn't mean that an omniscient person can't think of a way to win. Since our knowledge and understanding compared to his is the size of an atom compared to the universe. Whether or not we can think of a way for him to win is irrelevant to whether such a way exists.

CONCLUSION: There is no way to logically argue that the omniscient person doesn't win. We can either think of a way for him to win and then conclude that he wins(because he would automatically know it). Or, conclude that he doesn't lose because we don't have enough knowledge of the universe to know if there isn't a way for him to win(which he would know) and therefore can't draw such a conclusion.

We actually can argue that he doesn't win because is unable to act in time to make use of his knowledge. It's like asking if an omniscient person can beat any normal man/woman/child in game of tic tac toe where their opponent is allowed to make the first 7 moves. There simply isn't any way for the omniscient person to win in that scenario within the rules of the game. You don't actually have to be omniscient to know it.

@spiderbuck said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@jashro44 said:

@Shawnbaby: Yes but I'm assuming in a case like this we go with the scenario that makes this a random encounter. I agree with the omniscient is allowed to prepare for this fight he will stomp.

If its a random encounter for the omniscient then he isn't omniscient...which makes your argument a paradox.

This.

No it doesn't it just means he wasn't allowed to prepare anything before hand. Sure he knew he was going to fight the speedster, but it's not like he's allowed to bring devices or a suit of armor, or lace his skin with toxins.

@Shawnbaby said:

@jashro44: It doesn't have to say Prep. Being Omniscient means that you always have prep. It's a package deal that comes with knowing everything.

Doesn't mean he was allowed to bring anything or modify the environment in anyway. So he'd still lose in a "random encounter"

@eisjfiejss said:

@BMEZY said:

@eisjfiejss: the only way the omniscient person would do it in the right amount of time is if he had flash's or zoom's speed and reaction timing (in which he doesn't). Hell, the omnscient person doesn't even have prep to plan or prepare for anything substantial. he just knows stuff. that's all.

You still don't understand what I mean. We as humans, by logic, think that the only way an omniscient person can do it in the right amount of time is if he had the same level of speed, but that is because human mind is limited. There could very well be a way through which one without superspeed can react to one with superspeed. We think it is impossible because we can't picture that happening, but that does not mean it is impossible. An omniscient being would know how to react to a speedster even without superspeed, and know how to do it in less than one picosecond of time.

Another way to think about this is, if an omnipotent being wanted someone without superspeed to be able to react to someone with superspeed, would that be able to happen? Yes, because an omnipotent can do ANYTHING. By logic that doesn't make sense, but omnipotents (and omniscients) are beyond logic.

Knowing how does not equal being able to. The omniscient is not the same thing as omnipotent.