Countering Krona I: BFR
I guess I won’t bury the lede here: Based on the feats you’ve shown, Krona cannot travel across dimensions.
The Achilles’ heel of all your debates is that you don’t read your source-material in enough detail before sourcing your feats. After reading Tales of the Green Lantern Corps, I can conclude that your interpretation and use of those scans are devoid of context and entirely misleading.
Krona was not opening holes in spacetime or jumping across dimensions at will throughout this entire story. He crossed through dimensions once, when he entered our universe from the Realm of the Dead, and only did so through that onedimensional rift.
Krona did not open the dimensional rift between the Realm of the Dead and our universe with his own power. Here is the sequence of events from Tales of the Green Lantern Corps #2:
Long story short: After Krona was transmuted by the Guardians into pure energy (more on this later, as I’ll debunk your “energy prison” argument), he was sent hurtling through the cosmos before inadvertently entering Nekron’s Realm of the Dead. A rift was accidentally created because Krona’s immortal presence in an undead dimension caused a universal anomaly.
Or as described in the third page I posted above: “For Krona was an immortal…and that was an anomaly the infinite could not abide. Thus, the dimensional rift between [Nekron’s] dimension and your own was created.”
As shown in the same page, the rift was already created when Krona’s energy form first entered the Realm of the Dead. Nekron subsequently decided to restore Krona’s physical body and sent him to enlarge the rift, to allow Nekron to enter our dimension.
You’re making it sound as if Krona tore a rift between the two dimensions with his own powers. When in truth, the rift already existed before Krona was even freed from his energy prison. Krona didn’t open the door. It was already unlocked and ajar—he just pushed it wider.
Not to mention, if Krona can open dimensional portals, why didn’t he just do it again? At the conclusion of the story, Krona is bested by the Guardians and is herded "like cattle” back through the dimensional rift, forced to return to the Realm of the Dead:
The Guardians then seal the dimensional rift between our universe and Nekron’s realm, trapping Krona. So, if Krona can travel between dimensions at will, why would that contain him? It’s a simple question: why didn’t Krona just reopen another portal?
Krona did not return to the Realm of the Dead with his own powers. You claim in your second scan that Krona returned to Nekron’s dimension after “brutalizing dozens of Lanterns with ease.” But as I’ve already established above, there was only one dimensional rift (that Krona didn’t create with his own powers), and Krona only crossed it once.
So, what’s the explanation for your second scan? Simple: It was Krona creating a portal to teleport himself to another part of the universe. There are two pieces of evidence to support this conclusion.
1: We never see Krona reenter the Realm of the Dead. After besting the Green Lanterns at the end of #2, he teleports himself away from Oa as shown in your scan. In his next appearance in the following issue, Krona is teleported to the location of the rift by Nekron to fight the Guardians:
2: Later in #3, a Guardian creates a portal to transport the Green Lantern Corps from Oa to the location of the rift to fight Krona:
Note the distinct visual similarities between the portal created by the Guardian, and the portal created by Krona in your scan. With the evidence presented, I think it’s sound to conclude that Krona didn’t travel into another dimension as you claim, but merely teleported himself across the universe.
Bonus Misconception: The Worldsoul
I’m going to keep this brief for the sake of our voters because Busiek’s Trinity is a nightmare to explain, but in the simplest terms:
The Worldsoul’s “realm” is not another dimension, it is the Worldsoul’s mind. The Worldsoul is not some being that lives in another dimension, it is the sentient consciousness of the Earth. Inthe first scan below, Krona concludes that every celestial body has a “planetary consciousness/intelligence”—defining the Worldsoul as the mind, with Earth as the body.
This is further confirmed by the Worldsoul itself during its mental conversation with Krona, when it accuses Krona of destroying its “physical form” (see the second scan below) after Krona blows up the Earth.
Krona is simply having a psychic conversation with the disembodied mind of the planet. There is zero indication that the Worldsoul lives in/comes from a different dimension, and it is explicitly stated to be the mind of a physical planet.
Krona won’t be “popping” back into this dimension or “catching [my team] off-guard.” Which brings me neatly to my final point: Krona won’t be one-shotting Mordru or Larfleeze by erasing them from existence either because, as always, you’ve grossly misinterpreted your own scan.
First off, Krona didn’t erase the planet from existence. “Undo an existence” in this context literally means to destroy the planet. Krona doesn’t have vast reality-warping powers and has never been shown to, even at his strongest in Busiek’s Trinity. If he did, why would he spend 4 issues trying to fend off Earth’s heroes during the final arc, instead of just snapping them out of existence, or “one-shotting” them like you claim he can?
Secondly, Krona didn’t halt the “total erasure of the planet's existence after sensing its soul which he later harnessed.” He destroyed the planet which revealed its Worldsoul, and then the Worldsoul died. Krona explicitly calls it a “dying whisper” and speaks of it in the past tense: “The planet was alive.”
I genuinely have no idea how you concluded that Krona can reality-warp, or that he even “harnessed” the Worldsoul from those two pages. The whole point of the issue was that he didn’t succeed, which is why he spent the next 30+ issues destroying planets to try and find more Worldsouls, which is how he ended up destroying Earth in the series' conclusion (and its Worldsoul barely survived).
In short, Krona can and will be easily BFRed by Mordru into another dimension and will have no means of returning to the battlefield until Mordru allows it. At which point, Mordru and Larfleeze will eliminate him swiftly before Krona has time to pull out any nonexistent reality-warping powers.
Countering Krona II: Strategies
Krona’s Energy Form
I fail to see how Krona’s mental defenses alerting him that the Guardians arrived on Earth is even relevant here. And…? Both teams know that everyone is on the same planet. How is that going to stop Mordru from instantly locating Krona’s position before he can even react, especially since Mordru’s not locating him via telepathy?
Also, I don’t know if you want to be hyping up Krona’s psionic powers when they utterly failed in alerting him to the Controllers’ plan to betray him during Trinity:
The Controllers have an extended telepathic conversation in Krona’s presence, revealing their plan to double-cross him. This was Krona’s strongest form, and yet where was his telepathy here?
As for your “energy prison” argument, you’re literally just splitting hairs and playing the semantics game at this point. There’s no distinction here; Krona’s body was converted into pure energy and he was unable to escape from this form.
Let’s look at Krona’s official biography in DC’s Who’s Who…
Or in the Tales of the Green Lantern Corps miniseries, which you have repeatedly cited in your own arguments…
- “Transforming [Krona] into energy again…”
- "The Guardians could transform Krona into energy…”
- "The Guardians reduced him to pure energy…”
Or in Trinity, another series that you have repeatedly used as evidence…
But wait, I know what you’re going to say! Those are all just retellings of the original story from Green Lantern #40, when Krona first escaped from his energy form. Fine, let’s look at that original issue; here’s what happened after Alan Scott and Hal Jordan defeated Krona at the end of the story. Read the last panel:
Well what do you know? The Guardians once again reduced Krona into an energy-form.
As for your claim that Trinity Krona is somehow “passively pure energy and nothing but incorporeal energy,” show me one scan from that series proving this statement of yours. You straight up just posted an empty claim with zero evidence to support it.
Trinity Krona still had a corporeal form. He could still be hit (as shown in my earlier scan where he gets decked by an amped Superman), he could still interact with physical spaces and objects. He actually left footprints on the Earth’s surface after being freed from the Cosmic Egg…
How is that remotely equivalent to being reduced to disembodied energy without physical form or control? How is that even “incorporeal” by any definition of the word?
Here are the facts:
- Krona (specifically him, i.e. his physical body) was reduced into pure energy…
- From which Krona couldn’t escape without external aid or circumstance…
- And this happened twice. Twice.
I’m getting really tired of explaining Trinity. Many of the rudimentary flaws in your argument could have been easily avoided if you had just read the series more thoroughly.
Krona, even at his most powerful, does not possess universe-level matter-manipulation.
Because the closest you can argue for this form of Krona is that he possesses some low level of cosmic-awareness. He’s shown to have some understanding of the universe, that its planets have minds. Later in the same issue, he’s shown to be able to sense these “Worldsouls” telepathically (also shown in the earlier scan where he talks to Earth’s Worldsoul).
That’s literally it.
Nothing in your scan verbally suggests or even visually demonstrates that Krona can manipulate matter on any scale. Sensing the molecules of the universe is not the same thing as being able to bend the universe to your will, or even proof that one can apply it in a practical combat situation.
How is “I indulge in the growth of every cell” even equal to Mordru’s “bend virtually any force in the universe to his will”? This is the biggest stretch of a feat’s interpretation I have ever read.
Show me one instance of Trinity Krona using matter-manipulation in a practical combat context. Just one showing, of an in-character Krona at his most powerful, using matter-manipulation against an opponent. You can’t. Even something as simple as turning a staff into a snake.
Here’s the blunt truth: Trinity Krona is overhyped and largely featless. And this is supposedly the most powerful incarnation of the character you’re representing in this debate.
Finally, as for your scaling of Hal Jordan as a planet-buster, you’re correct. I made a mistake with the dates, not realizing that when you cited Justice League of America #140 (1960), you were referring to the volume’s year of publication, not the issue itself.
Now here’s where you’re wrong: Green Lantern didn’t even blow up a planet in that issue.
That’s a scan from the next issue, #141, where it’s revealed that Green Lantern didn’t destroy the planet as you claimed.
Rather, the Manhunter Cult used a device known as an Illusiotron to create the visual illusion and a hypnotic suggestion that the planet was destroyed, and no longer exists…all in an attempt to frame Hal Jordan. Aka Green Lantern didn’t blow up a planet, aka Krona didn’t tank “planet-busting energy-projection.”
“Incorrect statements betraying a lack of knowledge on the subject”? That’s been the theme of my entire rebuttal to your second post so far. As I said earlier, the glaring flaw in all your arguments is that you never properly research the context of your feats before using them.
I don’t think it’s even up for debate: Unless it’s part of his standard powerset, Darkseid cannot summon the armies of Apokolips. To equate Darkseid calling Kalibak...to Larfleeze summoning an Orange Lantern from his ring is absurd. That’s like me arguing for Black Panther vs. Batman and saying T’Challa can summon the Wakandan army.
The same goes for your Shadow Demons. The Shadow Demons were minions of the Anti-Monitor that Darkseid presumably co-opted during the events of Death of the New Gods. He has never been shown to be able to create them, ergo, they are not allowed to be used in this battle. Your claim that the Shadow Demons are an "extension of Darkseid's will" is also a totally meaningless claim, backed by zero evidence whatsoever.
Anyway, remember what I said about Mordru being able to replicate almost any power Darkseid possesses?
Darkseid & BFR
If anything, you noting that Mordru actually paused to gloat and introduce himself before attacking the JSA simply strengthens my argument for Mordru’s speed. Mordru appeared and spouted all that dialogue, so it’s not like he ambushed the JSA or took them by surprise.
And yet Mordru was still able to “fire off nearly a dozen spells” before either Jay Garrick or Liberty Belle could even throw a punch? Again, both are noted by Wally to be among the six fastest on Pre-52 Earth. To say this feat has nothing to do with Mordru’s speed but only his "proficiency" is preposterous.
You claim that Mordru doesn’t have superhuman speed and yet you’ve also elected to specifically ignore my next feat, showing Mordru out-reacting a blitzing Jay Garrick, and BFRing the speedster before Garrick could even touch him:
And here’s another similar feat just to put the nail in the coffin:
Including the first feat I’ve posted, that’s three times now that Mordru has out-reacted Jay Garrick. As for your scan of Darkseid redirecting Vykin’s Boom Tube, I hardly think that’s a legitimate counter to Mordru’s BFR strategy.
A Boom Tube is not the same as Mordru’s instant dimensional BFR spell.
The Boom Tube’s true name (as revealed in Morrison’sSeven Soldiers) is “Boom Lane.” It’s basically a path across two points of space. You still have to physically walk across and traverse the “lane” to get to the other end. I.e. time still passes within the Boom Tube and it is not true instantaneous or automatic teleportation.
This is shown throughout DC canon, but you only need look at the first issue of New Gods to see how one has to physically walk across the Boom Lane:
Compare this to Mordru’s BFR spells, which again, are in-character andinstantaneous:
1-2: Mordru BFRs the Legionnaires to their ship…in an instant
3: Mordru BFRs Atom-Smasher into a painting dimension…in an instant
Darkseid won’t have the opportunity to redirect Mordru’s spell because it’ll all be over before he can do anything. So, unless Darkseid has a feat proving that he can summon one specific target from a pocket mystic dimension that he has zero knowledge of...at will...and do it while simultaneously battling Mordru and Larfleeze...I’m afraid my team’s original strategy remains valid.
Darkseid Can Die
The only time that Orion has killed Darkseid (not counting Simonson’s Orion for obvious reasons) was during the events of Countdown to Final Crisis. That’s also the only time when Darkseid’s death didn’t stick, as his essence was subsequently reborn as “Boss Dark Side.”
In Final Crisis, after being fatally wounded by Batman’s radion bullet (with help from the Flashes), Darkseid’s body was killed and his essence shattered by Superman. That was the end of Darkseid in the New Earth continuity.
In Darkseid War, Darkseid is killed by the Black Racer-Flash and the Anti-Monitor. The only reason why Darkseid came back was because Grail resurrected him using an ancient Amazon ritual. It’s not as if Darkseid was unkillable, or that he came back to life using his own powers.
Your claims that Darkseid is unkillable, that none of his deaths were permanent, or that Orion is somehow required to kill him are all entirely baseless.
I’ve just listed two different examples (one from New Earth, one from Prime Earth continuity) where Darkseid was killed permanently by someone not named Orion.
Darkseid’s Other Powers
Mordru possesses telepathy, so it stands to reason he also has mental defenses:
- From the DC Who’s Who entry in my first post: “The ability…to read minds, and to mentally control others.”
- “I can pry the information from your skull if I have to. I can leave your shriveled form shrieking and sobbing for all eternity.” – Mordru to Sandman
- Mordru creates an illusion to fool the Wizard Shazam into thinking he was destroyed.
I’d also like to point out that a telepathic assault seems wholly out-of-character for Darkseid, who typically prefers physical/energy-based confrontations against opponents of similar power-levels. I don’t recall Darkseid using TP as his first move in the numerous times he’s fought the JLA or the rest of DC’s superheroes, even when he has full knowledge on their capabilities.
Also, your feats for Darkseid’s supposed telepathy are entirely lacking:
- New-52 John Constantine? You’re comparing a human mage to an eternal Lord of Chaos? Also, worth noting that John successfully fools Darkseid into thinking the Earth was destroyed with a magical illusion in that same issue. Proof that Darkseid isn't well-versed in the mystic arts.
- Darkseid didn’t control Grail “across galaxies” here. Grail simply had a nightmare about Darkseid because she feared/hated her father. Being a daughter of Darkseid, she would occasionally be possessed by her evil side, hence why she tried to kill her mom on the next page. Here’s her killing a bunch of people on instinct as a baby, as proof.
Darkseid defeated Mordru in The Great Darkness Saga? You mean the story where a severely-weakened Mordru was trapped for years, and then seconds after being freed, a seriously-amped Darkseid (who stole powers from various 30th century villains and artifacts) attacked him from behind? That story?
At any rate, it’s Pre-Crisis and irrelevant to our discussion, but I hardly think you can use that as an accurate gauge on how to defeat this incarnation of Mordru in a fair encounter.
As for your scans of Darkseid’s energy-manipulation:
- There is zero indication that he is absorbing the energy of Zeus. Darkseid simply blasted Zeus with his Omega Beams.
- Wonder Woman is not an energy being/energy-manipulator. I do not see why this is impressive. You can argue she’s a demigoddess if you want, but Diana will always be a herald-tier in terms of power at best.
- Darkseid is not Galactus, he does not “consume planets for sustenance.” Darkseid is referring to Apokolips here, which in the New-52 needs to consume planets to survive.
Compare your questionable showings to Mordru’s own…
Mordru casts a spell (in secret) that absorbs the power of Dr. Fate while they’re having an extended mystical battle across dimensions. Every time Dr. Fate throws a spell, Mordru gets stronger, until he’s finally able to defeat Dr. Fate.
Also, let’s not forget the first feat I posted of Mordru draining the magic of an entire universe, while also simultaneously draining three incarnations of the Legion of Super-Heroes.
“Some form of soul manipulation?” You showed Darkseid sealing one person’s “life-force” (I’m discounting the Firestorm Matrix feat, since that’s not soul-manipulation)…I showed Mordru absorbing the souls of an entire universe…
Can you honestly argue that Mordru, who is capable of absorbing souls on a universal scale while also stealing all their knowledge and powers, would be incapable of protecting his own soul? Regardless, soul-manipulation was never a part of my team’s strategy, I merely used it to display how Mordru possesses greater feats of soul-manipulation than Darkseid.
As for matter-manipulation, it’s heavily implied (per your own scan) that Darkseid was only able to create Stayne from the Source because Highfather created an equivalent in Takion. I hardly think Darkseid casually creates reality-warping beings from thin air while engaged in battle, and far as I can tell, nothing you’ve shown suggests Mordru can’t just one-shot Uxas with mystical transmutation either.
Finally, as for Darkseid's resurrection powers, I’ve already established that Darkseid will be defeated first while Krona is trapped in another dimension, unable to intervene. At any rate, it’s not like Darkseid’s resurrection powers will have much use if Krona is converted into energy form and sent hurtling through the cosmos in a win by Incap.
Conclusion: Our Battle
In closing, I believe it’s fair to say I’ve successfully defended my team’s strategy on all points.
Mordru will sense Krona’s presence via his energy (for which Krona has zero counters for) and BFR him into a pocket mystical dimension before either Krona or Darkseid can react. Krona has displayed zero feats proving he can travel across dimensions on his own power, meaning he will be effectively trapped, and I want to stress this tactic is entirely in-character for Mordru.
The spell is also instantaneous, meaning that Darkseid will be unable to redirect the BFR, unlike a Boom Tube. Based on feats shown so far, Darkseid will have zero means of recovering Krona from the pocket dimension, especially when he’ll be too busy fighting Mordru and Larfleeze.
I’ve already stated why the Shadow Demons are not a viable strategy in this battle, but I will leave it to ET to counter Chime's points about the Orange Lantern Corps. After Darkseid is summarily defeated, Krona will be allowed to return, at which point he too will be destroyed.
Your team’s counter-strategy is also full of logic leaps which I’ve already debunked at length:
1. Krona BFR: Krona has zero defenses against dimensional BFR, and Darkseid can’t bring him back, rendering all your team’s arguments for Krona instantaneously null and void.
2.Telepathic Assault: An in-character Darkseid, even with basic knowledge of his opponent’s capabilities, does not rely on telepathy to win a battle. So far, your team has not provided any feats showing that Darkseid even utilizes TP in a combat scenario. I would also like to remind you that Darkseid typically leans on raw strength/energy-manipulation, especially against opponents of similar power-levels.
3.“One-Shot Hax”: Krona doesn’t have vast reality-warping powers or universe-level matter-manipulation. These are nonexistent powers derived from poor feat-interpretation and a flawed comprehension of the source-material. Similarly, the suggestion that Darkseid can one-shot Mordru via energy-drain is…questionable, given that none of the Darkseid feats shown were…y’know, actually about draining energy.
4. Coherent Strategy: I'd also like to point out that, two rounds in, your team still lacks a unified coherent strategy for defeating Mordru and Larfleeze. Your team's entire argument for winning basically boils down to "Krona uses TP and Darkseid uses the Omega Beams somehow." Your team is allowing ours to dictate the tempo of the entire battle, which puts you at a serious disadvantage, as all you're stuck doing is playing defensive and attempting to counter our strategy.
5. One-Shot Hax: Krona has shown zero defenses against being converted into an energy form—if you want to use all a Composite character’s strengths, you have to take all their weaknesses as well. As for Darkseid, so far, he has shown zero defenses against mystical transmutation. And that’s just Mordru's powers, we haven’t even gotten to Larfleeze yet…
And with that I pass it over to @emperorthanos-.