You won the mobility and durability arguments decisively. Wan has very impressive feats in these departments, and you presented them well. I particularly liked your use of Vaatu's out of combat movement to ascertain his speed. These kinds of feats are often ignored, and your use of them shows a high level of familiarity with the verse. When ANTHP brought up the air spout, you responded with all the relevant counters, exposing the glaring flaws in his argument. It makes no sense to assume Tenzin can dodge, change elevation, match Wan's speed, and fight competently from atop the spout based on the feats presented. The pixel scaling you used to measure Wan's range convinced me he will have a significant reach advantage over Tenzin.
However, the scaling you used to find Wan's power was problematic. The way spirits react to blunt force is inconsistent and difficult to quantify, and you shouldn't have relied on it so much. The cliff feat is the most glaring example. Spirits are immune to physical damage, so it was unclear what you thought would happen if Vaatu wasn't strong enough to tank the hit. Would his body collapse inward like a flat tire? Still, the size of Wan's attacks and their impact on Vaatu's body (when they didn't go through it), was enough to show Tenzin will struggle to block them.
You took the wrong approach when discussing Tenzin's air shield, as ANTHP pointed out. Aang's feat shows the force of combustion bending is in the blast, not the beam. Instead, you should have focused on the tiny crater P'li's attacks leave, and used them to prove she isn't as powerful as ANTHP made her out to be. She lacks clearcut destructive feats, and you should have taken advantage of that as you did with Tenzin.
Your attack speed arguments were impressive, especially your use of the spirits flinching away from Wan's bending to prove they were hurt by his attacks and wished to avoid them. Together with Wan's high ground and AOE attacks, this convinced me that Tenzin would be tagged before long. ANTHP claimed Wan would be taken down before that, but Wan's toughness and his ability to form the cloud quickly and even midair in case he fell made that seem unlikely.
ANTHP
You presented Tenzin very well, providing extensive context to all of his feats. The variety of skill feats you posted established him as the more skilled fighter, while the impressive reaction speed feats proved he will be able to dodge Wan's small projectile attacks without much trouble. Wan's durability was impressive, but you showed that Tenzin had the power to take him down if he managed to land a series of consecutive hits. Scaling his power of Kya's slam was effective, and the mech feats, although not directly applicable, was too good to ignore. The reaction speed feats you used were great, especially those Tenzin performed against the Red Lotus. You convinced me that if Tenzin can get the fight into close range and keep it there, things will end badly for Wan. When discussing defense, you used Tenzin's feats against P'li's combustion bending to make a strong argument, and Mial didn't do enough to counter it.
You made two big mistakes in your arguments, which I believe cost you this CAV. The first was hyping up Tenzin's air spout while having no feats to back it up. Wan is one of the most mobile characters in the series and claiming Tenzin was as mobile with this little substance came off badly. Instead, I would have focused on Airbending enhanced leaps and other explosive, unsustainable mobility tools, admitting that Tenzin would have to wait for Wan to get close and use them effectively to land a hit. You did point out that Wan sometimes approaches his opponent, but Mial countered by showing that he doesn't get that close, maintaining a distance of more than thirty feet, and by pointing out that Vaatu is much more mobile than Wan. If you had based your argument on more explosive types of mobility, thirty or so feet would have been close enough, but with the unsubstantiated air spout, it didn't seem Tenzin could close the distance.
The second mistake was the way you treated Zaheer. Most of the arguments you made relating to him were unconvincing. That Tenzin didn't hit him hard because he wanted him to stay close, that a simple air spout would have knocked him out, that Tenzin wasn't pushed to his limits or wasn't trying his hardest to fight him even though he was fighting for his family. If you presented Zaheer as a more powerful opponent and provided more feats for him, Tenzin's battle against him could have been a strength instead of a weakness.
Well done to both of you for completing this behemoth of a debate. I vote for @mialthefencer.
The description does not explicitly say exactly when it is set, but the details give a fairly clear implication that the story is most likely set in the middle of book two.
"Team Avatar is suddenly ambushed by the Fire Nation" means it takes place during ATLA. Zuko leads the Fire Nation after the war, and if they were talking about some sort of rebel group they would have phrased it differently.
Mentioning Toph means it can't be in book one or any book two episode before "The Blind Bandit"
Katara is not in her book three outfit she adopts in "The Headband" and at least from the phrasing I don't think it would make much sense for it to be in between 301 and 302, or between books two and three (which is already covered in part by some lost adventures short comics).
It of course wouldn't make sense for it to take place in the Ba Sing Se arc. I also don't think it makes much sense for it to be in between any of the episodes leading to Ba Sing Se (starting from The Library).
Thus the comic most likely place during book two, sometime in between the end of "The Blind Bandit" (206) and the beginning of The Library (210).
Here, you claim that War Machine's mark 2 and Iron man's mark IV is the same, because they were able to brawl and trade punches. That's hardly the case. First, this was not a serious fight. Second, it just means that Mark IV doesn't hit hard enough to break Mark II, and vice-versa. It doesn't tell us which suit is stronger. If you ask me, Mark IV being more advanced is an obvious answer.
This was a serious fight, Tony was drunk and angry and intended to beat Rhodes, he had no reason to hold back more than War Machine did. Their punches also packed the same amount of force.
These are VASTLY different suits with different feats. Them fighting alongside eachother doesn't prove they are comparable, just like Cap and Thor fighting alongside eachother doesn't prove they are the same.
They weren't fighting alongside each other, they were fighting each other and War Machine had Tony pinned down and unable to escape.
Feats for how durable are the hammer drones? Sorry but these things are straight fodder. We already established they aren't even bulletproof, and I can't recall them surviving ANY of the attacks.
They are still armored robots and War Machine's ability to tear through them doesn't imply that they aren't durable, it implies that War Machine packs a lot of power.
Why would you assume that? I mean Iron man suits have very impressive lifting but striking is a different story. Do you know how powerful of an animal a REGULAR rhino is when it comes to striking? Rhino's weight can go up to 8000 pounds, which is the weight of a mid-sized truck. Rhino's can charge at 35 MPH.
According to Wikipedia "A mature rhino typically stands about ... and weighs around 700 kg (1,500 lb), though the largest individuals have been known to weigh as much as 1,000 kilograms (2,200 lb)" so the weight you used was wrong. The Rhino that hit the Mandalorian wasn't charging at full speed, so a Rhino's full speed shouldn't be used here either. This feat is not nearly as impressive as you made it out to be.
All of this doesn't matter though. A rhino's horn is made of Keratin, a material much weaker than steel. Steel, for example, has a Young Modulus (ability to withstand pressure) ranging between 190 GPa and 215 GPa, while Keratin has a Young Modulus of 2.5 GPa at most. A Rhino can't possibly break through steel (as War Machine can) because such force would break his horn.
Rhino's can casually crush steel exteriors of a car like paper:
A crock bite is as much as 3700 PSI (or 722 joules) of piercing force. A 9mm bullet from a rifle, by comparison, has 540 joules. Yeah a crock bit is more powerful than a bullet.
Why are you using energy to compare the impact of these attacks? A bullet is pushed from the barrel with a force "often exceeding 50,000 PSI", and applies similar pressure on its target, 3700 PSI is nothing compared to that.
Also you are yet to post some good feats for that minigun to begin with.
That minigun is a real-life weapon and Mando doesn't have the feats to tank its shots.
Here's Mando taking a point blank energy generator explosion to the face. The generator powered a blaster machine gun that was said on screen to be able to atomize entire armies of opponents, so the intensity of explosion should be FAR above any real life TNT equivalents of similar size.
The power of an explosion is measured by its size because every shockwave continues to expand until it loses it's energy and dissipates. That tiny explosion was much smaller than the explosions War Machine's weapons can generate and it still knocked Mando down, not an impressive feat.
Besides, Jango's armor provides a lot more well rounded protection that War Machine's suit from what we've seen so far.
His armor doesn't have the feats to tank any of War Machine's attacks.
Also War Machine's suit can't even survive Jango's weaponry if he hits him right in the chest or head piece.
His headpiece is just as protected as his body and Jango doesn't have the firepower to harm War Machine even if he hits the reactor, something he is incapable of doing based on his lack of feats against fast-moving targets.
Not to mention, if Jango is fast enough to keep up with top jedi masters, he can react to bullets in time to fly away before he gets tagged with minigun.
No cannon Jedi can bullet time. Some might be able to avoid bullets using precognition.
Here's energy fields (legends) that Jango uses in his game:
And if you must know, yes, they exist in canon as well, so it's not like I'm even abusing a legends exclusive here.
The problem with this argument is that Jango doesn't use the spherical energy shield that appears in these sources, he uses a body enveloping energy shield that only appears in that video game and should be considered a video game mechanic.
Wirst-laser is typically used to cut through alien metals in SW universe, so it definitely should go through titanium, especially the alloy Rhodes is using, which is vulnerable to heat.
That's a baseless argument, you didn't even post any instances of lasers being used to cut metals in the SW universe. Industrial lasers are used to cut metals in our universe, but most weaponized lasers aren't capable of doing so.
Wrist-rocket is a computer-guided, homing explosive, and even if it's a minor one, and it's unable to get through Rhode's suit, it can at least force him to lose balance in the air, or serve as a counter for any homing explosives Rhodes can send Jango's way, if he has any.
It doesn't have the feats to hit War Machine.
The focused vibrator cell that Jango uses allows him to cut through metal specifically. We see this when he is able to stop his momentum, sliding down a slick, and curved metallic exterior of the Kamino's cloning fortress, while being dragged by Obi Wan's weight additionally - by cutting his vibro blades into the metal just by touching the surface.
Is that supposed to imply he can cut War Machine? He can't even cut through this random metal roof, his blade has left no visible scratch on it.
This type of vibro blades is also specifically mentioned to be able to go through even strongest armors in Star Wars universe. So obviously, going through titanium suit from real-life-like universe will be a piece of cake for these babies.
War Machine's durability can't be scaled of real-life Titanium no matter how many times you try, and you didn't provide any source for this statement so it's meaningless.
But that's not what we're talking about here. Iron man also has a very hard time pulling the breaks when he reaches his top speeds.
Based on what?
This makes him an easy target even if he is fast, because his movement is very linear, and for master marksmen like Jango, moving a target moving in a straight line is childs play.
Jago has never hit a target that even approaches the speed of sound while War Machine can break the sound barrier easily, he is not going to tag him.
He doesn't have to turn his entire body. Why would you think that? Mandalorian jet pack can fly you left, right, even backwards without changing your positioning at all.
Jango is moving at a snail's pace, no wonder he doesn't need to do much to change his momentum.
You haven't showed ANY agility feats for War Machine. Even Iron man has very questionable agility in his suit, Rhodes has none. Especially when comparing to an acrobatic and dexterous warrior such as like Jango.
War Machine has kept up with Iron Man for an entire chase until finally bull-rushing him to the ground, he certainly scales to him. Jango is not even in the same league.
Can you mane specifically what exactly was so acrobatic about this scene?
What do you expect him to do, a pirouette? He outmaneuvered two fighter jets, that's a very impressive feat.
Outmaneuvering two linearly moving jets with tremendous effort is impressive now?
Jango can't outmaneuver a linearly moving bird on his best day. You haven't posted any impressive feats for his jetpack.
Catching an object moving linearly at a similar speed as yourself is supposed to be a feat of agility, acrobatics or dexterity Sorry, but it's simply not. If I run next to another girl, jump on her as she runs, pulling her to the ground with me, does that make me an Olympic level gymnast?
What? If you chase an Olympic level runner for a few minutes and maintain the distance between you and her, your speed and agility are comparable. Not to mention War Machine wasn't in his most advanced armor and he was trying to help Tony avoid him through voice chat.
Canon blaster fire has not established speed and was calculated to move at 130 MPH on YT. This is not an impressive feat.
The link doesn't work, can't address it.
He was using force dash, an ability he didn't use against Jango.
Jumping on a vehicle moving at an unknown speed is not an impressive feat.
Obi Wan is a legitimate speedster, FAR above War Machine and Iron man.
Not based on these feats.
Tony being able to react to a shell can be easily classified as an outlier, since we see him countless times tagged by bullets and even arrows, without reacting in time.
You didn't post a single instance of that happening.
That's just cheap attempts at lowballing.
No, it's called looking at the way the feat was presented instead of using faulty scaling and mental gymnastics to prove jetpacks, which never had a supersonic feat in all of Canon are somehow hypersonic.
Visual tools aren't always in harmony with real-life physics, it's normal.
It's not. The visuals are supposed to communicate to the viewers what's happening in the scene.
Sorry, all context considered, space ships are obviously massively hypersonic, and it's been seen as consistent throughout the entire saga.
You convinced me Jango's ship is capable of hypersonic travel, but he wasn't doing so at the time. What you're doing is like looking at a man running beside a sports car and saying: "he must be running at 200 MPH" instead of "the car must be moving slowly".
It's super-advanced, alien, futuristic tech, why would you say it can't handle supersonic speeds, simply based on how the armor is constructed? Maybe the helmet is attached to the rest of the armor with some energy field. Maybe the armor's force fields protect the user from negative effects of hypersonic travel.
In the Mandalorian, the place you've taken this "feat" from, the helmet is not advanced Tech and has no force-field, it's just a piece of tough metal that can't protect people from the harms of hypersonic travel.
Not to mention, Flying at high speeds at all times is not at all how Rhodes fights. We see him hovering in one place in the air many times throughout his fights, especially when he is firing his weapons
That's how he fights when he is up against a group with no ranged attacks, he wouldn't fight this way against Jango.
Why can't plasma beams from a futuristic, sci-fi universe travel at light speed? I mean it's not like physics of Star Wars are based on our real life physics, right? Yes, the article says it's plasma, but it also says it's a beam of light. So there is no reason to believe why it can't be both, when it's pure fiction.
In the article you posted, it was explicitly stated blasters do not fire lasers ("often mistaken as lasers") so we have no reason to believe they move at light speed.
Are you really using the material argument?
Yes... why not?
Funny how it's okay to disregard physics when discussing SW tech but War Machine's armor must be exactly as tough as real-life Titanium even though it can tank strikes and explosions that would easily destroy real-life Titanium.
You don't get to cherry pick here. Either we assume MCU Earth is comparable to ours, or we assume it's all fiction, so you need to dig up feats for absolutely ANYTHING.
The MCU is similar to our universe in most aspects, but like most action movies, it breaks the laws of physics from time to time. War Machine's armor was shown to be much more durable than any real-world metal and that's why we can't scale him to it. If MCU bullets were consistently portrayed to be moving at a different speed than real-world bullets, we wouldn't scale them to their real-world counterparts either.
Droids are durable because they can resist blaster bolts and blasters are powerful because they can harm droids? That's circular logic. It's also based only on a sourceless statement from a Wookieepedia article that's not up to date. In truth, super battle droids have shown no particular resistance to blasters or lightsabers in the battle of Geonosis and in all other encounters they were involved in.
If you wanna stick to plasma, even our real world plasma has as much as 25 000 degrees Celsius, which is an absurd amount of heat, 4 times hotter than core of the earth is estimated. Do you seriously think War Machine can survive heat on this level, when extremis guys can melt it and shut it down with their single heat touch?
War Machine has already survived heat on this level against Whiplash because lightning-based attacks naturally produce plasma. The level of heat Extremis can produce is unknown.
How did he exactly "tank"? them? They were clearly destroying his suit, he was completely immobilzed just by getting tangled by one of the whips.
War Machine's suit was fully functional after the fight and he was entangled by the whip for quite a long period. He was immobilized by the electricity, not the heat.
If Monaco tried to actually cut him in half, how do you know if he wouldn't be able to do it?
Monaco had his whip coiled around War Machin's neck, if he could cut through him, Rhodes would have been decapitated. Iron Man was also able to tank a direct slash from Monaco and War Machine's durability is comparable to his.
Vision obviously didn't shoot Rhodes with a blast this intense. He was just trying to damage Falcon's wing, he wasn't trying to kill him.
Vision doesn't understand or properly controls the power of the mind stone and he wasn't aiming at Falcon directly so he had no reason to hold back even if he could.
A mute point. You provided no feats that Arc Reactor which is either completely exposed or at best protected by thin glass, is immune to any damage at all, let alone immune to heat, that Rhodes entire armor is highly vulnerable too.
The arc reactor has tanked many attacks, including the explosions I posted. Jango doesn't have the feats to harm it.
Obviously, being able to shoot down an opponent who can casually time blaster shots and has force precognition is a great feat for Jango.
Are you saying Jango made the blaster bolts go faster? He shot the Jedi a few times and the Jedi failed to deflect the shots, anyone who can fire a blaster can replicate this feat.
Ooops that's a fail if I ever saw one big bro! Because he didn't hit Iron man at all.
He got very close and Iron Man is a hundred times more mobile than Jango.
He's been flying around chasing Falcon for the most of the airport fight, shooting at him, but we never see him tagging Falcon even once.
War Machine didn't want to hit him and Falcon is quite fast himself.
I posted feats for Obi Wan, I hope that's enough. If you still doubt jedi masters are capable super-human fighters, let me know.
Not every Jedi scales to Obi-Wan, as the Jedi who couldn't deflect a few blaster bolts proves.
Wanda wasn't even KO'd, and she's just a kid compared to Jango. Also also, Jango's eardrums are protected by an advanced helmet. Also also also, I proved helmet protects from hyper sonic flight. Also also also also, I also proved Jango's energy shields protect him from sound attacks. A quadruple counter for a gadget that's not even lethal. Talk about overkill! I'd move to more potent weapons if I were you.
Jango's eardrums aren't more durable.
Jango's eardrums aren't protected by the helmet, he can still hear with it on.
Jango is not capable of hypersonic flight.
Jango's energy shield either doesn't exist or will be taken out by the machine gun in a second or two.
Iron man doesn't have super speed. He aim dodged a tank shell he was expecting that one time, that doesn't make him even a bullet timer.
It's not his only speed feat and at least he has some solid ones. He can also react to things mid-flight, which means a lot considering his flight speed.
Like I said, on consistant basis, Iron man is tagged with bullets, arrows and even slower projectiles, like Falcone's drone.
Most characters have some low showings, it doesn't invalidate all their previous speed feats. That drone was also quite fast and had Falcone's speed added to its own.
Putting Rhodes on a constant fire guarantees he is getting tagged immediately. There is no reason to think otherwise.
Since when are Jango's blasters automatic? He isn't capable of constant fire.
I've shown both Jango's reactions (dodging a lightsaber strike from OW)and combat speed (keeping up with Obi Wan in CQC) to be far above anything Rhodes, Tony, and most other MCU characters have ever showed.
Obi Wan's best feat is deflecting blaster bolts that move at an unknown speed, and that's a reaction speed feat. You posted no working combat speed feat for him. Jango somewhat scaling to him means very little.
Summary
Jango doesn't have the durability to tank any of War Machine's attacks. War Machine strikes harder than a rhino and his bullets are more powerful than an alligator bite. Even if he can tank bullets, his armor doesn't cover his entire body so War Machine will quickly hit an exposed spot.
Jango isn't capable of hitting War Machine. He never tagged anyone that fast and his projectiles aren't as fast as real bullets if we are using Canon blasters.
Jango can't harm War Machine with his blasters as War Machine has tanked the more powerful electric whips Whiplash used.
War Machine can easily hit Jango, he has tracked and nearly tagged Iron Man and Jango's many times slower. Even if Jango can avoid some of his shots (he certainly can't) he won't be able to deal with War Machine's multiple weapons and high rate of fire.
How is this quote so misunderstood? Mandrakk isn't hitting TR with the heat of 10 billion suns or the blood of 52 universes, he is asking him if he can feel the things he fed on and intends to destroy in order to break his resolve. Later, he even asks TR if he can hear the sound of the space between the present and Lois Lanes death, further proving my point.
Since when do characters hit their opponents with an attack and them ask them if they felt it? Would Mandrakk next ask: "can you feel the power of my punch colliding with your face?"? The part with the blood of 52 universes also seems to be completely ignored, even if he is talking about his attack, the suns are only a tiny fraction of it.
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