@asgardianweapon: Dude, you literaly changed my mind at least twice until now.I tought that Maestro was impressive and you told me jobs i reasearched it and yeah you´re right, then we had the whole Beta ray discussion which i conceded that the planet was small.
I don't think telling me that i convinced you one version of Hulk sucks is really helpful in your proclamation of being a Hulk fan lol. I mean even if you didn't concede it, the writer literally came out and said it was a very small planet. So it's not me that even convinced you of that it was the writer literally coming out and saying it.
So why do you always aprouch me with bad faith? Yeah i got some stuff wrong in what that thread about the list? but from them to now i read up on many older issues read bagels and some cavs to get understand more and fact check what i remembered by head and only made some slight mistakes (the issue where i said like 15 and it was 12). If your point is that i missed that Hulk became stronger in the 00 then it isn´t valid as i knew and acounted for that in the my point , hell even when i made that thread of list the gamma mutates 5 mounths ago i put pre core amp bellow current savage
It's not bad faith, I have just seen the exact same thing from you as i have seen from some others, but at the end of the day why do you even care what i think? Or why do you need to prove yourself to me? If you really like Hulk than you can continue to do so regardless of what i think, but if you do post something that i find incorrect i will comment on that as i would with anyone else, even if it was Ghostravage or Bagel or Acidskull, etc...
in which i meant that in that period of time Hulk and Thor comparision would be an almost 1 to 1 so to Hulk to dismember and destroy the robot with a hit means that Hulk had to be multiple times stronger than when he first came in the fight
When Hulk first came into the fight he was quite literally at the bottom of his anger levels, in fact no anger even existed in him from what we've seen, which is almost unprecedented because Hulk 99% of the time starts of at some anger level and then gets even angrier to overcome an obstacle, here he was basically crying and feeling sadness and just didn't want to fight anyone but kept saying he was sorry, that all changed as soon as he saw Jackie get hurt and he got pissed of, so i have no idea why you want to put some exact scientific method of measuring how it's "impossible" for him to get that strong that quickly when the whole point of the character is to literally smash conventional wisdom and "logic" and Al Ewing himself has come out and said Hulk can basically do anything he wants as he does not work on logic or science. He even gave this explanation to some Thor fanboys that whined to him how Hulk was able to break Thors skull with 1 punch almost killing him "because that doesn't sound possible, it means Hulk had to be multiple times stronger...." You see where i am going with this?
Hulk entire shtick is to do the impossible which is why he is one of the only characters to have with physical strength alone done "dumb" stuff like break time multiple times, break reality, break the pages of the comic book, overpower himself, grab energy as if it was made of solid matter, hold open worm holes, break barriers that are suppose to get stronger with his strength but somehow he overpowers that even though it makes no sense, separate matter and anti-matter, etc... things that shouldn't be possible with brute force alone and in some cases AT ALL but that's the point of the character, so Ewing writing a pissed of Hulk as being able to rip the arm of someone who had Hulks strength while Hulk was at the bottom of his anger is not at all hard to imagine. This is the same character that gave himself a super power out of nowhere(literally pulled it out of his ass) to be able to see ghosts just because Banner was afraid his dad would come back as a ghost after he killed him lol and in Ewings run randomly gave himself the ability to smell lies.
@asgardianweapon: I mean he could lock devil and bring green skarr by manipulating gamma energy.And in here he was also manipulating Gamma so...
But he didn't manipulate Green Scar, we have yet to actually see Green Scar in the comic, he only took his appearance
True, when i started i hadn´t read the issue 39 so yeah you´re right but tbh i don´t know yet if Terns can really change forms willy nilly as he has only changed to his monster form and the other one he had to "eat" Brian so...
This is what i meant when i said it's impossible for you people to change your minds... Leader literally transformed into a giant xenomorph queen from the Aliens movie
And you aren't sure if he can just transform willy nilly into anything he wants... He also had to eat Brian to take his place under TOBA and understand everything TOBA wanted from Brian, and NOT because he couldn't change into his appearance.
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he did made Hulk able to ressist Xemmu
He didn't even do that, Leader himself resisted Xemnu from inside Savage Hulk.
Nah you´re almost convincing me tbh.
Can't tell if you are being sarcastic, but ok.
Of corse he has became stronger when someone he cares about but i don´t think you get the massive increase that would be needed to rip his own arm one handed. Hell i ain´t even saying that it´s impossible to savage to do so, i just think it would need more than that to make an at least 30x.
This is the problem you are trying to put numbers on it, when Ewing didn't think in numbers when he wrote that scene. A weakened Hulk has ripped an amped Absorbing Mans spine out of his body, while weakened ripped Hollow Rulk into pieces, almost tore Wonder Mans head off(confirmed by the writer) and wasn't even angry there, broke Thors skull with a punch, dented Surfers board to the point it was screaming in pain, etc... Ewing doesn't put numbers on how much is needed to do each of these.
The only thing Ewing does is treat Hulk as basically the strongest there is, so there isn't much of anything he can't do when it comes to doing it physically.
You missed my point entirely when i mentioned Thor. I did so because at that time they were an almost 1x1 comparision, so for the Hulk to dismember a bot 2 the strength of Thor this boost should be massive.When grey hulk defeated Abomination he went from like barely hurting and moving him to defeating him and he even cites that he would be 10x stronger.
And then look at how far they have come since then, in their last encounter Hulk broke Thors skull with 1 punch and he didn't even do it while someone close to him was hurt. Hulks strength can fluctuate much more greatly nowadays than back then, I have shown examples of this like going from Banner to almost breaking a continent all in 1 page.
The example that you gave me, is from incredible hulk 632 if i´m correct isn´t it? Do you really think the level of anger that Hulk showed in heart of the monster is an indicative of "normal" savage Hulk levels? specially when he was going worldbreaker just before?
I showed you Hulk going from Banner to Hulk in 1 page and almost breaking a continent. Hulk was holding back here, he was at his normal until they reached Umars dimension where he actually let go and became as angry as possible. He didn't go worldbreaker before any of this. Are you sure you read Hulk comics??? Maybe you just glance them over?
Like i genuinaly don´t get why you think i´m a Hulk hater and downplayer.Like i can´t really grasp that. I showed you before, when you tried doing that gotcha about Thor skull in immortal Hulk that i ain´t that Thor fan that simply ignore evidence and say muh favorite character
Because of the way you downplay and continue to downplay and come up with excuses, your lack of knowledge on certain even basic things, etc.. The problem is you could have just been doing that because i tried to use a gotcha on you, so i don't know the true intent of your actions.
The post, which i think people deleted shows clearly i saying that Thor was stomped by devil Hulk. When the person that i was debating with tried to say that was Thor jobbing i went against that. Hulk beat Thor fair and straight. That was why i was debating for IH against Black adam and etrigan two characters i consider to be around Thor levels.
But how can IH beat the 2 of them when he doesn't have the anger for it though? He needs to get 30x angry or something i guess.
@asgardianweapon: Ok, so my take of this is that Hulk was at least a little affected by Sam´s gamma manipulation that he was doing in the battlefield
There is literally no proof of this.
The leader has been show to kinda manipulate Hulk´s emotions after the defeat of Xemmu where he calmed Hulk in what seems to be mind control.
We now know that this is incorrect, before we thought he took over Green Scar but in reality he didn't he just disguised himself as Green Scar.
So he never even manipulated Hulks emotions at any point, he did however take the opportunity of Xemnus tp assault to lock away Devil Hulk, that's everything he did and later we see that he tried to chain Savage Hulk next to Banner and Fixit.
The previous examples that you showed, in my way of viewing did nothing to disprove the notion that it could be because of Stern manipulation. A 3x times increase after a whole fight where Hulk lost wouldn´t be enough to rip his own arm as a matter of fact this only supports my argument.
They did plenty, the problem with comicvine and its users like yourself is once you are stuck in one way of thinking, it's impossible to change your minds. Like Hulk grew stronger in that instance WITHOUT ANYONE BEING HURT, he just grew stronger 3 times because he was angry from the fight itself, yet here he was looking at Jackie McGee being hurt and that pissed him off seeing someone he considers a friend has always driven Hulk to become insanely strong. So how you can spin that this somehow supports your argument is beyond me.
Every time i saw Hulk doing such a quantifible multiplier on his strength someone he loves deeply was hurt on in peril of doing so: Betty, Jarella, caiera and many of those significant increases had a fight/quite some time before.
Or his friends like Rick Jones, Doc Samson, Jackie Mcgee. Hulk was also in a fight in this instance, he wasn't fighting back but he was getting beaten so no matter how much he didn't wanna fight, it certainly caused him anger to get hit over and over.
The most similar comparision was when hulk got mad after Jarella and fought that robot that was suposedly 2x Thor strength and broke the robot apart in the end in the fight. Hulk and Thor being very similar in strength in that fight but Hulk still needed the fact that Jarella was dead( i think) and some time to really get to this level of strength
You just keep exposing how little you know of the Hulk, this was WAY BACK when Hulk was about equal to Thor in strength, which has changed in the 90's and early 2000's when Hulk was hailed as stronger of the 2 and then was further bridged when Hulk got the core breach amp that made him even stronger. Hulk does not need time to get that stronger, he has literally gone from Banner(his human form) to Hulk angry and strong enough to almost break a continent with his transformation alone
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So yes Hulk can go to ridiculous levels of strength and anger on his own, without needing any outside stimulation.
You can hate and downplay Hulk all you want but you literally have no evidence Leader did anything to manipulate his emotions there, in fact this whole emotion stuff was debunked when we saw that Leader never even manipulated Green Scar in the first place, the argument should have finally died then and there.
@asgardianweapon: I dunno what you want me to say more, I can just repeat myself that there don't seem to be any external factors for Hulk ripping Absorbing Mans arm of, Hulk has grown in anger dramatically and quickly at times, so this is nothing new and he has notoriously overpowered his own strength(if that makes sense) when someone else was trying to use it against him, case in point Leader trying to use Hulks own strength against him, which Hulk manages to overpower in a couple of minutes and without any added anger stimuli, just his own stubbornness
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A similar thing happened when Kree trapped Surfer, Strange, Namor and Hulk inside some bubbles that used their own strength against them and the more they fought the weaker they become and then as everyone else succumbs Hulk just get's pissed off enough and breaks through it
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This really isn't anything new or surprising as a Hulk fan yourself i am sure you are aware of this. The problem with what Absorbing Man did is he copied Hulks strength but not his rage, Creel wasn't angry at the time, while Hulk was, not because Leader did something to him but because he saw Jackie get hurt which is what made him angry, I know you will say "well Leaders presence was making Titania in particular appear more hostile than normal" and yea that's true but at the same time it did nothing to Hulk, who was not interested in fighting at all in the beginning and only started fighting back when Jackie got hurt, if Leader was the one making him angry there would be no reason to show Hulk reacting to Jackie being hurt which is the whole point.
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