Uchiha_Macho

I am very sorry it took some time to respond. Priorities are nice thorn in the side of debating your favourite character. I've also had to respond to a CAV that can be found here: count_dooku-vs-itachi-uchiha. Anyhow...

@dunmer

You complain about my reading skills when you carelessly played around with words in your sentence? Your sentence again; ''A smarter opponent can defeat a burlier one'' so in other words a burlier opponent isn't smart to face of against a smarter opponent.

Wrong. I'm questioning your reading skills because they suck. I'm very sorry that concept behind simple English is too complex of a supposition for you to understand. But what part of that is my problem? I shouldn't have to spoon feed you these indications just because I use sentences that are very straightforward in meaning, but contain too many big boy words for that slab of meat between your ears to process. This entire dilemma could have been solved had you opened a new tab in google and ran the search "what does the word burly mean?". Hopefully next time you'll research definitions for words you think you might know, but aren't 100% sure about. And if that's too complex for you: BigKidsDictionary.com

You might be right, but what you are forgetting is that not only is Madara burly but he is also smart to boot. That's not an excuse to pardon Itachis failures or his inability to stack up to Madara in terms of smarts and intelligence.

Yet you haven't produced a single scrap of evidence that suggests he is smart, let alone being smart when compared with Itachi. More importantly, to the point of his first physical death, his battle-record suggests he's everything but smart. This is someone who believed the 'Leeroy Jenkins' berserker approach was the best method to fight someone clearly stronger than himself. And despite Hashirama's professed warnings that Madara wasn't strong enough to take him on, and that it would be ideal to surrender for the sake of peace, Madara still got his ass kicked. Outside of that, there's only one statement to suggest Madara's intelligence-level might be on par with a seven year-old Itachi:

"He made the Bijuu wear Susanoo like an armor. Damn Madara... You're smart!"

While a giant fox-monster clad in Susanoo's wear might be something of a spectacle, It's the tactical equivalent of putting an industrial-made coat on to keep it warm. Creative? Yes. But considering he had the most intimidating tailed beast along with the most powerful mangekyou technique at his disposal, there should be little room for error. Yet, Madara did just lose control of the strongest monstrosity within minutes of fighting; despite the nice fox-protective clothing he had made in preparation. However, using critical analysis behind Hashirama's statement, one might view this panel as a mark against his intelligence, rather than in favor of it. This is for two reasons:

1. Not only has Hashirama fought against Madara on many occasions, but he's also known him for most of his life. Yet, only when Madara uses the full strength of the nine-tails against him does Hashirama have the epiphany that Madara might actually be somewhat intelligent. What does this mean? If you use your brain and employ something called 'critical analysis' you might find the answer... if Hashirama only just decides that his old rival could be smart, it likely means that Madara hasn't done anything considered to be 'smart' up until and before that point. This is despite having years of battle to demonstrate tactical ingenuity.

2. It isn't a particularly advanced application of battle technique. As I mentioned before, combining jutsu's has been something modern shinobi regularly employ. Whether it is integrating ninjutsu with weaponry: ie, Sasuke's chidori-sword. Or combing two opposing elements to create a more powerful attack; such as Kakazu using his fire & wind bodies in unison. One can also convolute Naruto's harem technique with the above, seen as he's simply using a clone jutsu combined with a transformation feint to meet his perverted ends...

Those are just two reasons why Hashirama's statement isn't necessarily conclusive. Of course, when it comes to blind praise from the First Hokage, then Itachi wins the day:

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rennegan which is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any eye power Itachi ever had.

Well done! And if I didn't read the rest of your post, I might think you're trolling with this point. Did you ever wonder why Itachi might not be interested in awakening the Rinnegan, or even the demoted Eternal Mangekyou? Well gee... I don't know, maybe it's because he wanted Sasuke to actually keep his pair of eyes and eventually surpass him? However, I'm sure that if Itachi wanted to unlock the rinnegan, he would have done it in a natural lifespan. Seen as he mastered the 3 tomoe aged only eight and found weapons that would make him completely invincible. Whereas Madara could barley land a rock across a pond. So Itachi >>>>>>> Madara, no?

Most of his kinsmen only started to defect after the village was created (they were mostly tired of the constant fighting, not that they knew they couldn't win).

Guess what? You're wrong. Again. What a surprise. Enlightenment:

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What part of that panel says that "they were just tired of fighting, not that they knew they couldn't win". Because the one I'm reading says this : "everyone could see the Uchiha were inferior in our battle". Which... you know, indicates that Uchiha probably couldn't win. I don't think it get's much simpler than that now, does it? Seen as comprehensive English isn't your strong point, I would offer to draw you pictures to better explain that concept. But it appears the Manga has already done that for you. Why not try and actually read it?

Madara who has been all along trying to gain independence or autonomy for the Uchihas is the cause of Itachi cowardly murdering them all? you must be joking. Madara always warned them that Konoha would turn on them one day, but they failed to listen to him. Even wen he was cast aside he still tried to fight for his people (that shows how honorable he was). Itachi who was but a child on the other hand was so clueless that he thought going about killing women and children would solve the Uchiha problem.

Wrong again. Just because Madara believed his actions were correct or justified, doesn't make them so. He might have thought that his leadership would result in an independent state for his clan, when really it would have left them in an early grave (see panel above). I'm not sure how to embed this notion into that dense skull of yours, so I guess I'm left with this :

'Mangafax disagrees with you'.

To adress your hypothetical scenario where Itachi is fighting in that era rather than Madara, I suppose he would have come to a much earlier peace agreement, sparing the lives of many in the process. Perhaps if a young Madara had the wisdom of a Hokage, he might have done the same.

That act was the bed rock of the idea of the village creation no matter how you want to interpret it. Mind you that same ''fine art of of throwing rocks across a pond'' was what created an enabling environment for the likes of Itachi to master and refine his skills as you said. If itachi were to have born in Madara's era he would have been worse than he was when an enabling environment was created for him by yours truly Madara (and Hashirama). So in short Itachi owes all his petty achievements to Madara.

Oh really?

So essentially, you'd prefer to argue that Madara's rock-throwing hobby allowed Itachi to become the genius he's recognised for? You might have to explain that one in more depth, because it's foundations are a little shallow. While you're thinking of way to make that Idea sound intelligible, it might be an Idea to search up artistic symbolism and understand how it relates to Madara skimming stones. Now, unlike what you described, the act of skimming a stone across a pond didn't miraculously create a civilisation for Itachi to live in. It took the agreed peace between two opposing parties. Which was the idea of Hashirama and not Madara. In the end, Madara was one of the last to be swayed from the constant warfare. And of course, it didn't take long for him to start plotting against the village after that, did it? So no, Itachi doesn't owe any gratification to Madara whatsoever. But it's nice to see what you'll stoop to when you get desperate.

Anyway, even though you've basically lost the debate at this point, here are just a couple of scans that go against your grand ideas:

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Quotes:

"It seems like we won't be able to reach that idiotic pipedream"

Madara Uchiha

"We had arrived at the place farthest from the dream we had wanted to realise"

"But I couldn't let go of that dream"

Hashirama Senju

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"Let's end this. If the greatest shinobi, the Uchiha and the Senju join hands... the country will stop finding other shinobi clans to take us on. And one day the fighting will stop."

Hashirama Senju

"Hashirama, when are you gonna stop spouting your childish dreams?!"

Madara Uchiha

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If it wasn't abundantly clear already, Itachi does not owe "all his petty achievements to Madara." lol.

No you are grasping at straws. We are not deliberating whether or not Madara following the tablet BZ changed was wrong or not. Madara planed everything to carry out his plans to achieve what was written on the stone. He did it perfectly too. That alone goes to show how vastly superior he is compared to Itachi. He plans also managed to accommodate the likes of Itachi again (how awesome). You are always crying wrong, as if that would make any of your counter arguments concrete lol. And you are also conveniently forgetting that there are two completely different masterminds in play here. Which makes your whole argument irrelevant. Why isn't it Madara's win when it was Madras plans Obito was continently following all along.

Again, I congratulate Madara for almost turning a global populus into an army of feckless myrmidons in his plight for 'world peace'. He's certainly a mastermind for that! But if you're wanting to praise Madara for Kaguya's achievements, then it must be said that Obito was really the one to carry the plan forward - for the most part. So if you're attempting to re-write the fact that this plan had only one true mastermind, then you better star acknowledging Obito's headway. In fact, you can thank the entire akatsuki seen as they were able to actually capture tailed beasts. Otherwise that's a pretty obvious case of double standards in your argument. Not that I'm surprised, seen as you were trying to argue that Madara's stone skipping skills were responsible for all of Itachi's feats.

And oh Obito was always continently following Madaras plane even if he had a different agenda.

And oh, Madara was always continently following Kaguya's secret plan, even if he had a different agenda. No double standards now.

Still speaks nothing of his tactical understanding of battle. I mean seriously didn't you see how he failed miserably at coaching Kaguya tactically in the final battle.

So because the arch-villain lost her battle in a series that was about to end, Black Zetsu's words aren't credible? So is Madara also tactically inept for loosing his battles with Hashirama? Or even worse, literally getting one-panelled in his most powerful incarnation by Zetsu himself. I'd say that's quite the epitome of failing miserably, don't you think? Or are you, once again, desperately clinging to whatever idea comes into your head, because you know that this is an argument you can not win against the facts? I will repeat myself once again. Black Zetsu is perhaps the most credible character when it comes to knowledge of techniques and the history of the Naruto. Having influenced and manipulated many many prominent individuals including Indra, Madara Uchiha, Obito, Kabuto and Nagato and a countless amount of others. He has limitless knowledge of techniques and how they're applied. Yet, despite having full knowledge on all the individuals above, he believed that the Yata mirror and the Totsuka sword made their user completely invincible. If you want to claim that they don't make Itachi invincible, you have to prove that they don't. Otherwise there is no reason to put your personal opinions above a statement made in the source material. Perhaps if you weren't concerned with making up your own series of events, and actually read the manga, you might understand why.