Timandm's forum posts
First - You're welcome to post your blogs within mine, any time..
Secondly - as odd as it may seem, I could follow your rant. And I enjoyed it.
Thirdly - You and Avenging X-Bolt really should write a parody of all things X-Men. Not only would I buy it, I'd sell it for you!
@Jorgevy said:
Well, up until recently, my understanding was that SHIELD was an agency owned and run by the U.S. But someone pointed out that it is now affiliated with the U.N.@Timandm: wolverine is canadian, why would the US issue anything?
So, thinking that it was a U.S. agency, any arrest warrant held by SHIELD would have to have been issued by a US federal court. That's what I was thinking.
@lykopis said:
@Jorgevy said:
@Timandm: wolverine is canadian, why would the US issue anything?
This, lol and if Queen Elizabeth killed anyone within the walls of Buckingham palace, then it would be England who would be charging her. What does the nationality of either matter? It's where the crime happened that dictates where the trial would be held.
It was manslaughter.
(Keeping it small --- the essay above pretty much reflect my take on things).
YES!!! THIS is EXACTLY my point. It is where the crime happened that matters... The crime happened on UTOPIA.... So, again, who issued a warrant for the arrest? Utopia does not belong to the U.S.
@Teerack said:
Couldn't agree more... The Hulk killed hundreds? Thousands? During Fear Itself. Ben Grimm killed thousands? Maybe tens of thousands? But not only were they not arrested or charged... They've been accepted into The Avengers. Now, some will point out that The Hulk and They Thing were being controlled by a super powerful entity and therefore not responsible for their actions... Odd that Scott Summers was also controlled by a super powerful entity (in fact a much more powerful entity) and he kills only one person and BAMN he's the most wanted criminal in the world... Perhaps if he'd just agree to join the Avengers that would settle everything...I honestly feel it was more the actions of the avengers that got Xavier killed then what Scott Summers did, and honestly how many people did Wolverine kill? How many mutants were killed by Wanda as a result of M-Day?
The Scarlet Witch goes crazy and kills Hawkeye and Antman... Then changes all of reality so that her father is the ruler of the world... Then changes it again but depowers more than 15 million mutants and murders an untold number of them.... but she's not guilty of anything. All she received was a firm talking to from the X-Men... Oh, she also received an invitation to rejoin the Avengers.
Summary: Cyclops possessed and controlled by a force so powerful it could destroy the entire universe. He is attacked by the Avengers on Utopia... (Hawkeye shot him in the neck with an arrow.) and then he lashes out and Xavier dies... and THAT is murder...
.....................Hulk and Thing are possessed by force so powerful that it can destroy buildings...and cause earthquakes... They do untold damage and kill an untold number of people.... and that WASN'T murder...odd how that works.
Well, I have to admit that SHIELD being affilitated with the U.N. is news to me... I didn't realize that. I remember that it was first started by Nick Fury and the acronym stood for something else... and I knew the acronym had come to stand for "Strategic Homeland Intervention Espionage Logistics Directorate".. Which of course directly implies American...@Timandm said:
1: Cap, we're in Australia. You, the Avenges, and SHIELD have no legal authority here. What you're doing is illegal... Like when you illegally invaded Utopia...
2: Do you have a warrant? Charles Xavier died on Utopia... Did you get a warrant from the courts of Utopia to have me arrested?Just a couple nitpicky things on my part:
1. The Avengers are not just an American team, they're authorized to operate in any nation affiliated with the United Nations. Same with SHIELD, for some reason in recent years there has been a shift towards SHIELD being an American agency instead of an international peacekeeping agency again authorized by the United Nations.
2. I don't think Utopia ever really was recognized as a sovereign nation.
But, after reading your post, I looked at a few pages and you're absolutely right. It IS a UN affiliated organization. Thanks for straightening me out on that.
However, that still leaves a rather large question hanging.... If SHIELD is authorized to make arrests, who issues the warrants for those arrests??
As for Utopia, I would have to go back and look it up, but I do believe it was recognized by the UN as a sovereign nation.... It was most definitely recognized by the kingdoms of Wakanda and Atlantis...
Not only is it absolutely NOT neo-nazism... It actually sounds like a free society...
You said that some people hated it. You also said some people didn't because it was just fiction....
What you're telling us is that people are having and expressing opinions about the book, or at least, about that quote.
But don't you see it? They are JUST talking. Each of them is free to form and have their own opinion. Not only that, but they are free to EXPRESS their opinions without fear of arrest, punishment, or death.
Now, when the government or people start killing others because of their opinion of a book, or for simply reading a book, THEN you will be seeing Neo-nazism in action...
Keep a calm head and remember... Leave no evidence.... I'm just sayin'.I had my comics moved into a drawer until I had my shelf setup. Well, the drawer was open and my girlfriend had put her coffee mug on top of it and knocked it over...
Yeah...
Anyway, only a few were ruined (and a couple novels, my World War Z and Rise of the Governor) but LUCKILY I had 90% of my comics in plastic bags to keep them safe during my last move.
RIP Marvel 1602, Walking Dead Vol 16 and Wolverine: Origin :(
Doing the bump!
Oh, a good thread is all too often like a war.... It never REALLY ends...*grabs popcorn* am I too late for the show?
Your responses are anything but boring! Wrong, stupid, ignorant, and trite CERTAINLY, but not boring.... LOLOL!!! I'm just playing! Put down the keyboard. No one has to get hurt here... (the spoiler thing is a good idea.)
I wouldn't use the word kidnap -- lol -- they didn't show up to kidnap Hope. Captain America was pretty much out in the open in terms of taking Hope under SHIELD protection.
Well, the word Kidnap, by definition, means to Unlawfully (illegally) seize and carry away a person by force.
He didn't come to specifically kidnap her. He was hoping she would go willingly, but he made it perfectly clear that he WAS going to take her whether she was willing or not.
We've already agreed that Cap had no legal authority in Utopia. And we know that Hope did not want to go with the Avengers at that time. If Cap and company had taken Hope at that time, it would, by textbook definition, had been a kidnapping.
However, I think we do agree that the Avengers and the X-Men should absolutely have worked together to protect both the earth and Hope... The Avengers certainly had more resources, but those resources could have been made available to Utopia...
He didn't come to specifically kidnap her. He was hoping she would go willingly, but he made it perfectly clear that he WAS going to take her whether she was willing or not.
We've already agreed that Cap had no legal authority in Utopia. And we know that Hope did not want to go with the Avengers at that time. If Cap and company had taken Hope at that time, it would, by textbook definition, had been a kidnapping.
However, I think we do agree that the Avengers and the X-Men should absolutely have worked together to protect both the earth and Hope... The Avengers certainly had more resources, but those resources could have been made available to Utopia...
Yes and no. There are two different sets of actions contained within all the X-Men did at the beginning of the god-awful event called Schism.
1: They had no legal authority to enter other countries without going through customs or proper protocols. So, they broke the law to enter these other countries and defend people against giant killer robots. They absolutely broke the law of those countries, but they were right to do so.
An important distinction here. The X-Men have NEVER wrapped themselves up in an American Flag and claimed authority. They quietly (well.. they tried to keep it quiet) entered these other countries, saved lives, and left. They did not TELL the other countries what was going to happen.
2: They attacked a facillity manufacturing and sending out these Giant Killer Robots that were targeting mutants (although something often went wrong and these things started attacking humans as well)
Sending the Sentinels out to kill mutants was an act of war.... The X-Men were not only right to fight back, they had no other choice since no one else would protect mutants. To my mind, this was simply fighting a war. If Germany sent Sentinels to attack and kill citizens of the U.S., then that would be considered an act of war and the U.S. would fight back... In the U.S., the Congress must declare war to make it official and to give the President the authority to use the military for battle. On Utopia, Scott made the decision to go to war...
1: They had no legal authority to enter other countries without going through customs or proper protocols. So, they broke the law to enter these other countries and defend people against giant killer robots. They absolutely broke the law of those countries, but they were right to do so.
An important distinction here. The X-Men have NEVER wrapped themselves up in an American Flag and claimed authority. They quietly (well.. they tried to keep it quiet) entered these other countries, saved lives, and left. They did not TELL the other countries what was going to happen.
2: They attacked a facillity manufacturing and sending out these Giant Killer Robots that were targeting mutants (although something often went wrong and these things started attacking humans as well)
Sending the Sentinels out to kill mutants was an act of war.... The X-Men were not only right to fight back, they had no other choice since no one else would protect mutants. To my mind, this was simply fighting a war. If Germany sent Sentinels to attack and kill citizens of the U.S., then that would be considered an act of war and the U.S. would fight back... In the U.S., the Congress must declare war to make it official and to give the President the authority to use the military for battle. On Utopia, Scott made the decision to go to war...
Well...yes. Was he trying to do the right thing? Yes, he was. Did things go as he had hoped? No. Was the splitting of the Phoenix Force an accident? Yes. Was he responsible for that accident? Yes.. As such, he must bare the responsibility for the things that happen as a result of his accident.
An ambulance driver who accidentally runs someone over, is responsible.
A surgeon who accidentally amputates the wrong limb, is responsible. (this actually has happened a number of times.)
A police officer who accidentally shoots an innocent bystander is responsible.
Tony Stark was responsible.
Bearing the responsibility for his actions HAS to be more than him simply saying the words, "I take responsibility for my actions." He's done nothing. In fact, until that very moment he hadn't even acknowledge or accepted what he'd done.
Now, to be clear, Stark was on the moon (or at least in outer space) when he split the Phoenix Force... There are no laws governing warfare with cosmic entities in outer space, so he broke no laws... Legally, he can't be held accountable. He cannot be charged, arrested, detained, or prosecuted because, quite simply, he broke no laws.... But everything that happened after the splitting of the Phoenix Force, has to be viewed from the perspective that Tony Stark set those specific events in motion...
An ambulance driver who accidentally runs someone over, is responsible.
A surgeon who accidentally amputates the wrong limb, is responsible. (this actually has happened a number of times.)
A police officer who accidentally shoots an innocent bystander is responsible.
Tony Stark was responsible.
Bearing the responsibility for his actions HAS to be more than him simply saying the words, "I take responsibility for my actions." He's done nothing. In fact, until that very moment he hadn't even acknowledge or accepted what he'd done.
Now, to be clear, Stark was on the moon (or at least in outer space) when he split the Phoenix Force... There are no laws governing warfare with cosmic entities in outer space, so he broke no laws... Legally, he can't be held accountable. He cannot be charged, arrested, detained, or prosecuted because, quite simply, he broke no laws.... But everything that happened after the splitting of the Phoenix Force, has to be viewed from the perspective that Tony Stark set those specific events in motion...
I think this is one of those times where the leader gives himself plausible deniability. Now, to be completely fair, I do think Cap would have done everything in his power to avoid having to kill Hope. Nonetheless, it was clearly stated as an option. THAT was the real reason Wolverine was there. No one and I mean NO ONE takes Wolverine to a potentially volatile meeting as a representative, liaison, or go between. I honestly believe Cap wanted Wolverine there to kill Hope if every other option failed...
To be clear, I never said Cap 'wanted' to Kill Hope. I just see that as the only viable solution he had at the moment.
Something to consider: Wolverine knows from experience that, once the Phoenix force is inside the host, you cannot kill the host unless the host wants to be killed. How many times did Wolverine stab and kill Jean? Many... and she came back each time. Once, when they were trapped on a part of a space station floating into the sun, he stabbed and killed her... And she came back with much more power.... So, what's the point here? Having Wolverine along to kill Hope just in case is a solution that will work ONLY BEFORE the Phoenix reaches Hope.... Cap knows this. Logan knows this.
To be clear, I never said Cap 'wanted' to Kill Hope. I just see that as the only viable solution he had at the moment.
Something to consider: Wolverine knows from experience that, once the Phoenix force is inside the host, you cannot kill the host unless the host wants to be killed. How many times did Wolverine stab and kill Jean? Many... and she came back each time. Once, when they were trapped on a part of a space station floating into the sun, he stabbed and killed her... And she came back with much more power.... So, what's the point here? Having Wolverine along to kill Hope just in case is a solution that will work ONLY BEFORE the Phoenix reaches Hope.... Cap knows this. Logan knows this.
I honestly could not agree more.... Now, did you notice that the Avengers were at that wedding as well?
Much in the same way that a drunk person is entirely aware that they are drunk...But in that case, if they stop drinking, they will sober up...
A person drunk on the power of the Phoenix cannot simply 'stop.' It simply is not an option. The Phoenix will always be there and will, over time, gain complete control of the host IF that person was never meant to be the host.
So, yes, Scott and Emma were completely aware, but there wasn't a thing they could do to stop it. It simply wasn't an option...
Hope, on the other hand, did have the will power to control the Phoenix. She even had the will power to give up the Phoenix. But then she was BORN to be the host for the Phoenix.
Let's talk about a hypothetical situation.... You are out with some friends at a party or dance club... Someone, and you don't know who, slips a powerful narcotic into your drink... Well, before you even realize it, you're stoned. or wired... or whatever it is called these days... Let's also say that you are completely aware of your condition. Will you have the sensibility to stop drinking and partying? Will you have the sensibility to get yourself to an emergency room? It's possible, but not likely. However, let's imagine that you do have the will power to stop partying and you do manage to get yourself to an emergency room and you do ask them to help you detox.... If the narcotic in your system was like the Phoenix, the doctors would eventually tell you there was absolutely nothing they could do. It's there forever. They would wish you luck and advise that you always maintain control... What do you think the odds are that you would actually ALWAYS remain in control?
We all know Rachel Summers was in possession of a small 'portion' of the Phoenix Force and she not only controlled it, but used it rather effectively. But that was only a small portion and Rachel is a special case, what with her being the daughter of Jean Grey.
Scott and company were taken over by a force they had absolutely no chance of controlling. They were pretty much doomed the moment the Phoenix Force took them.
A person drunk on the power of the Phoenix cannot simply 'stop.' It simply is not an option. The Phoenix will always be there and will, over time, gain complete control of the host IF that person was never meant to be the host.
So, yes, Scott and Emma were completely aware, but there wasn't a thing they could do to stop it. It simply wasn't an option...
Hope, on the other hand, did have the will power to control the Phoenix. She even had the will power to give up the Phoenix. But then she was BORN to be the host for the Phoenix.
Let's talk about a hypothetical situation.... You are out with some friends at a party or dance club... Someone, and you don't know who, slips a powerful narcotic into your drink... Well, before you even realize it, you're stoned. or wired... or whatever it is called these days... Let's also say that you are completely aware of your condition. Will you have the sensibility to stop drinking and partying? Will you have the sensibility to get yourself to an emergency room? It's possible, but not likely. However, let's imagine that you do have the will power to stop partying and you do manage to get yourself to an emergency room and you do ask them to help you detox.... If the narcotic in your system was like the Phoenix, the doctors would eventually tell you there was absolutely nothing they could do. It's there forever. They would wish you luck and advise that you always maintain control... What do you think the odds are that you would actually ALWAYS remain in control?
We all know Rachel Summers was in possession of a small 'portion' of the Phoenix Force and she not only controlled it, but used it rather effectively. But that was only a small portion and Rachel is a special case, what with her being the daughter of Jean Grey.
Scott and company were taken over by a force they had absolutely no chance of controlling. They were pretty much doomed the moment the Phoenix Force took them.
I hate to give Bendis credit for anything. I REALLY do... but... sigh... It seems to me that he has created a story that is NOT black and white. The issues are not so clear. Our conversation alone is proof of that... While Scott, Emma, and Captain America may see things as black and white... AND while they present their black and white views in dialogue, the overall story is quite convoluted and confusing.....
If it weren't, you would clearly see that I am absolutely right about everything here and you are completely and totally wrong... LOL!!!! (I really do amuse myself sometimes...)
If it weren't, you would clearly see that I am absolutely right about everything here and you are completely and totally wrong... LOL!!!! (I really do amuse myself sometimes...)
In the scent that I posted in this thread... Captain America tells Scott that he is under arrest for the Murder of Charles Xavier... So, here's the question:
What court issued the warrant for the arrest of Scott Summers on the charges of murder?
Was it a U.S. Federal court? Think about this....
An arrest warrant is a warrant issued by a judge on behalf of the state, which authorizes the arrest and detention of an individual, or the search and seizure of one's property.
I copied and pasted that from Wikipedia, but it's correct...
So, which court do you think issued the warrant for the arrest of Scott Summers?
Phoenix destroys entire planets. It destroyed one that we see on panel (who knows what others) on its way to Earth
Sooo... After the Avengers kidnapped Hope from a foreign nation against her will.... Where EXACTLY were they going to hide her? Manhattan? Avengers Tower? Was there any spot on Earth they could have hidden Hope from the full power of the Phoenix? and if Hope had been removed from the planet, what would have stopped the Phoenix from destroying the entire earth just by flying through it?
So, which location would have been safer to keep Hope in... Utopia (Away from population centers) or New York City????
Now here is a question I would honestly like to see your direct answer to: Does Captain America have the authority to go to any other country in the world and demand they hand over one of their citizens? If that country refuses to give up their citizen to Captain America, does he have the legal authority to invade and take that citizen?
Captain America didn't want to arrest Hope -- he wanted to keep her safe
No one disputes that. and he COULD have done that had he not tried to invade Utopia and kidnap her. You did note that he just showed up and demanded that Scott hand hope over, correct? Now, what gave him the legal authority to do that?
He and the Avengers could have surrounded Utopia and protected Hope...
"Hi, Scott. The Avengers and I would like to protect Hope. Do you mind if we stay here in your country where we have no legal authority to tell you what to do, and help protect her? Hank Pym and Tony Stark would like to work with Dr. Nemesis on a backup plan."
Ironman did not force the Phoenix onto those X-Men. It is so misleading to say as much. He wanted to destroy it -- sure -- hell yeah, considering the history behind that entity. It didn't work -- it split up (ugh -- again -- wtf)
Tony did not FORCE it on the X-Men on purpose. It was an accident of HIS creation... If he had not broken up the Phoenix Force (regardless of how good his intentions were) the Phoenix would not have ended up in Scott, Emma, Namor, Piotr, and Illyana.
and it ended up with people who WANTED it to show up -- who in all fairness, probably would have taken the Phoenix into themselves had they the option
That is POSSIBLE. But, even in the Marvel universe, the police do not arrest people on what PROBABLY would have happened. We don't know what PROBABLY would have happened.. and you cannot judge Scott and company based on what they PROBABLY would have done...
It was Scott who was all -- let it come -- we can use Hope -
Yep... Scott was an idiot. No doubt. So, the answer was to kill Hope before the Phoenix got there? What gave Cap the right to decide to kill Hope?
And by the way --- The Avenger weren't "there" when those depowered kids were killed in the bus but let's not forget all the adults took off almost immediately to go gallivanting and hobnobbing with the world elite at T-Challa's and Storm's wedding.
How does that absolve the Avengers of doing nothing? Not showing up and helping clear the wreckage? Not investigating and find those responsible? The Avengers did nothing.. Why?
You say they went "gallivanting".... This was AFTER the fact... They had saved who they could. Scott sent X-Factor after the ones guilty. So, the X-Men were doing something... The Avengers did nothing. Again...Why?
Scott killed Xavier. They all power-tripped horribly as the Phoenix Five
Of COURSE they power tripped horribly.. That's not a surprise, is it? But the Phoenix should never have been in Scott... and if Tony Stark hadn't broken it to pieces, it never would have entered Scott and he never would have power tripped...
If someone else injects YOU with a drug that drives you insane, are YOU responsible for the damage you do under the influence of that drug? No... Now, I realize Tony did not do it on purpose, but the fault was his NOT Scott's.
If she focused on the disaster of that meeting between Cyclops and Captain America on the shore of Utopia -
Cap shows up to a foreign country uninvited and demands one of their citizens... And you blame Scott for that meeting being a disaster? That doesn't make sense.
Well, people have a funny way of deciding what they WILL and what they WILL NOT see... I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it is...@Timandm said:
I don't think people are disagreeing with Scott and Emma helping mutants... They're disagreeing with Scott and Emma not surrendering to the AvengersHelp me out here: how are these things not mutually exclusive?
And furthermore, I'd actually like to hear someone who blames Scott & Emma for doing something wrong, and who wants them to surrender, actually address the points raised by those two. Because there was not even a sliver of a hint of a doubt in my mind after reading this issue that they are completely justified and just.
I've actually asked many times, exactly 'what are the charges' against Scott?
From what I've seen, the only thing he did (and this is while under the influence of the Phoenix Force) was defend himself against the Avengers. In the course of doing so, he killed Charles Xavier. Somehow, others see that as murder... They somehow ignore that, up until that point, the only law that Scott had broken was illegally entering Kun Lun... But no one on earth can arrest or prosecute him for that. Emma had killed at least one person, but I don't even know if the Avengers knew about that.... Namor attacked Wakanda but that was Namor not Scott or Emma... Illyana locked people in a prison in Limbo, but that was Illyana, not Scott. Also, locking people in a prison in a different dimension was perfectly acceptable by the U.S. when Tony Stark did it... he locked heroes in the negative zone and treated them any way he wanted... but that was legal somehow...
So, all those things were done by Namor, or Emma, or Illyana or Piotr but not Scott.. He had broken no laws whatsoever...
And the Avengers kept "Poking the Phoenix Five with a stick" (words of Reed Richards) until they provoked the cosmically powered five...
But, I don't think you will ever see anyone state an actual crime that Scott had committed. Nor will they tell you exactly what law was broken. They will not tell you what court should issue the warrant for Scott's arrest...
What you have are people angry with Scott because he defended himself... Life isn't fair. And apparently if you're a mutant, it's even less fair...
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