thopples

Can an Omnipotent go back in a previous timeline and fight a previous version of itself that has a distinct consciousness from itself? If you believe in Absolute Essential Omnipotence, this cannot be.

Do you believe it makes sense for an Omnipotent to go forward in time and stop a future version of itself from making a decision? How would that even work?

2 Omnipotents across Spacetime? 3 Omnipotents across Spacetime? That may be debunk their Omnipotence.

No, an Omnipotent is "Temporal" but only "Presentist Temporal" they cannot be consciously divisable entiteis across linear layers of linear time where there is a distinct Omnipotent consciousness in different time spaces where they can meet each other. Omnipotents must be unified entities across all linear time, experiencing their own transcendant Time Dimension that flows with no existing future or existing past to itself.

(btw. It is impossible to time travel in a Time that functions like Presentism as the past and present don't exist).

An Omnipotent must be experiencing its own Time Dimension, where, its future possible decisions do not exist for him to time travel forward to, and he cannot time travel to a previous version of himself and convince himself not to do X before X happened, otherwise we have conflicting wills.

In order to justify a Temporal Omnipotent that functions like this, as a divisable entity across Eternalism, you have to adjust your meaning of Omnipotence and you are not talking about Classical Theistic, Transcendental Omnipotence anymore. You have to define an Omnipotent as just unbeatable but still may be rivalled and we have many Omnipotents.

Omnipotents must exist outside of the realm of Eternalism (or Growing Block) where entities are divisable across well-ordered linear layers of time (past, present, future) otherwise we are not defining the same kind of Omnipotent.

Composite DC can be interpreted in many different ways, if you value validity by measure of establishment, then the Presence is Omnipotent because his numerous showings across 4 different authors combined make him very believably Omnipotent to the point that any new showing as of recent can be dismissed as an outlier if we average ALL his showings, the Presence is the Source, Overvoid entity who transcends GEB who is stalemating an aspect of the Presence, the Light who Lucifer treated as just as a property of the Presence, not Presence entirely

If you value new feats that are ridiculous outliers and contradict 90% of the stuff we know best of the Presence's best showings, then yeah, your contention might make sense.

I go over the fact Presence has no actual anti feats and all those are forms, the only question I have is if darkness came before light and if they are equal or not. The main points I bring up for questioning.

GEB cannot be equal to the Presence because GEB and the Light are just consequential emergent creations/properties of the Presence. In Dan Watters' Lucifer, the Presence preceded the Light as the Light only began existing once the Presence created Lucifer (Lucifer is the Light Bringer and the Great Darkness) and Lucifer clearly describes the Light as if it was a property of the Presence, so the Light is most likely just an aspect of the Presence as the Presence created darkness that caused the Light to exist.

Also, Lucifer proved that he was the Great Evil Beast all this time because by erasing his own existence, he literally erased the Great Evil Beast's functions of evil over reality.

In Swamp Thing Vol. 2 (part of Vertigo btw), the Light and the Darkness are revealed to just be two halves of the dichotomy of Heaven and Hell, while the TRUE GOD exists beyond Heaven and Hell, beyond all layered realities and beyond Time and Space, exhaling his quintessential perfection beyond dualities. Swamp Thing clearly distinguishes the GOD from beyond Timespace from the Light.

Gallery

The Presence was also about to destroy Heaven, Hell (which contained GEB in it), and all 3 Creations, in Lucifer, everything would have been destroyed ex nihilo, so GEB cannot be equal to the Presence.

Hadou Gods should not be bound to the concept of power at all? If Naraka is omnipotent, then hajun and luci stalemate. If presence is not omnipotent, I side with Hajun completely. Infinite power can mean so much in this instance.

Naraka is not Omnipotent.

Ok, he doesn’t predate death itself and his willpower isn not above hers.

her will power is stronger

Death only exists in Lucifer's Creation because Lucifer allowed it in an earlier chapter, this guidebook statement is inconsistent for not remembering that fact.

Asking who wins between Azathoth vs Lucifer, that's like asking Presence vs Lucifer, in which case Lucifer loses.

Azathoth is like some sort of unconscious boundless source omnipotent entity, it would be like Lucifer using Azathoth's own manifested power against himself and nothing will happen.

The reason why we cannot have Paradoxical, Illogical Omnipotents is that the moment you bring the subject of discourse outside the domain of logic and reason, I can literally say whatever I want about your Omnipotent.

Because if an Omnipotent is beyond logic, that means I can say Omnipotent = Banana, it doesn't make sense does it? Well, you threw logic out the window didn't you?

I can say an Omnipotent can be defeated by a snail, or an Omnipotent can be defeated by a cookie, or an Omnipotent can be destroyed by a toothpick, or even a planck-sized pointy object.

It doesn't make sense right? Well, that's what happens when you describe entities beyond any form of logic, because without logic, I can blither gibberish string of words with no meaning.

Like I can say "Omnipotence = dkalfjadsflkdsajv;kdsajf;ldsafja;lkdfjdsaflajfdalf therefore Yamcha can solo Omnipotents" doesn't make sense right? Well, that's the consequence of your Omnipotent when you bring logic outside of the domain of discourse.

With logic and reason, it is from that we induce a hierarchy of power, of causal relations both physical and immaterial, of an orderly relation of time from which any kind of power can be exercised without chaos, how 5 atom bombs > 2 atom bombs, etc.

So power is a consequence of Logic, power comes from logic, therefore an Illogical Omnipotent is an oxymoron. And all Omnipotents (if they are Omnipotents) are Logical.

The Light is the Overvoid, and the Great Darkness is even older than it, in fact it caused the flaw in the Light that led to the creation of the multiverse.

We are in a thread assuming the interpretation Lucifer created the Multiverse, and not GEB, and assuming Lucifer where GEB is just Lucifer, so this scan doesn't work and my Swamp Thing scans still applies where God is distinct from the Light. So my Swamp Thing scans still applies.

Hilariously, Lucifer and GEB are the same and by that GEB is inferior to the Presence as the Presence can destroy Lucifer any time he wants. So even if you insist GEB created the Multiverse, well the Lucifer canon agrees with you and Lucifer/GEB is inferior to the Presence.

Perhaps if this thread was a "Ignoring literally everything in Vertigo, DC Cosmology" your argument would work but it doesn't.

Scans of the Presence causing multiversal destruction multiple times? If the Presence can cease to exist without the Darkness then why can't a battle with the Darkness weaken it?

The Presence ceasing to exist had nothing to do with beliefs, it had to do with the existence of Lucifer, that's what it relied on. With Lucifer gone so was the Presence.

Then you admit that Great Evil Beast and Lucifer are the same (thus disregarding that JL Incarnate scan) since you are trying to use the Lucifer scan against me.

Now I counter you with this:

Destiny of the Endless is LITERALLY just a side-effect of the Presence's power over Creation. This means that what ceased to exist wasn't the Presence entirely (otherwise Destiny of the Endless too should stop existing) but just his Light.

The Presence was never equated to the Light according to Lucifer, but rather, "his Light" meaning the Light is just a property/aspect of the Presence due to Lucifer's wording.

Scans of the Presence causing multiversal destruction multiple times? If the Presence can cease to exist without the Darkness then why can't a battle with the Darkness weaken it?

The Lucifer 2000 comic has the Presence leaving his Multiverse, leaving all of Spacetime, that depended on his existence, to falter into destruction and oblivion, this did not affect the Presence's power at all and he was unfazed by it, meaning he is not dependent on the Multiverse/Destiny's Book, the Light on the other hand was affected by Multiversal destruction.

Lucifer also left his father's Creation/Destiny's Book many times, and this did not affect the Presence either.

Presence also, as I said many times, nearly destroyed 3 Multiverses and would have been unfazed by it too.

The handbook doesn't mention religious beliefs or different aspects (except for the Voice) it very clearly states The Presence, and it even says that Presence came to monitor the new multiverse, so that's clearly referring to the real Presence, how else would it monitor the multiverse if it existed before it? Even the Light existed prior to creation.

You realize that this scan of yours has a huge problem that even backfires on you in many ways? It's so hilarious that you really hate reading your own stuff.

The Presence described in this scan existed AFTER the Multiverse existed, not before it. In this scan, the Presence is not the Creator (and contradicts most other stuff we know about the Presence) but rather an emergent property of Creation.

The only way to make this consistent with older stuff is that the Presence spoken of here is not the real Presence as this Presence in this scan is not the Creator, and is a Near-Omnipotent avatar of the true Creator of the Multiverse, and if the Presence is Near-Omnipotent, whatever he is an avatar to must be Omnipotent, and since Lucifer is really just GEB and GEB is really just Lucifer...... that true Creator that existed before reality is superior to GEB/Lucifer.

It's never stated that only an aspect ceased to exist, show proof otherwise.

Sorry, but Sandman Overture is my counter against this insinuation. Dream of the Endless retconned the Multiverse's spacetime with Dreams, affecting and rewriting even Destiny's Book, causing everyone to forget the destruction of the Multiverse due to his retcon.

Only Glory of the First Circle/Shekinah (Presence in hebrew and Judeo-Christianity) was unaffected, and if an aspect of the Presence is unaffected by changes to the Book of Destiny, then the Presence has properties outside of Destiny's Book and still continued to exist in some form.

Glory also is the one who bound the Endless with many rules and laws and we know from Lucifer that Destiny is a manifestation of the Presence's approach to Creation, and Great Evil Beast is bound to Destiny of the Endless. So Presence = Glory of the First Circle > Destiny's Book > Great Evil Beast

The Presence's Omnipotence only gets wobbly (but not impossible) when Composite DC and this literally can change next month or the next, but in the Matteis canon and the Vertigo canon, and assuming a Composite pre-Monitor DC Cosmology, he is certainly Omnipotent.

Virtually all the anti-feats of the Presence can be eradicated away when we consider he almost destroyed all 3 Creations where it is revealed that any limitation of the Presence was a withholding limitation, nothing more, nothing less.

And since the Vertigo Presence is a Superior Hadou God with no anti-feats of being less real to the top-layer or being bound by the concept of raw power, and his Infinite power is unlimited, any God that scales power from the Presence like Lucifer easily murderstomps Shinzaverse by just appearing, just like how Lucifer destroyed the Mansions of SIlence Multiverses.

Um yeah? Phantom Stranger mentions the Light, and he also mentions the Voice, he never says they're the same thing. In fact there isn't really even a wiki entry for the Light nor is it brought up in handbooks or even mentioned, the Voice however is, which suggests they're seperate.

You mean that there isn't really a separate entry for the light, means that the Voice and the Light are the same?

Occam's razor, the simplest solution is the best one. Rather than saying that PS and Spectre are serving two separate Gods, the Light and the Voice, we assume they are the same because the Light having no entry of its own proves it's not a distinct entity.

You're evidence doesn't even mention they're the same thing lol.

Your evidence doesn't mention they're not. See how I can turn it against you? But I am in the advantage point because Occam's Razor. And because the Light is not a distinct entity, it isn't distinct from the Voice.

GEB literally formed a partial truce, that's why he went into slumber, and the Light was also weakened after the battle as well, it was said to no longer shine as bright.

The Light is nothing more than an aspect of God who is beyond Timespace and Heaven. Go see Swamp Thing V2 075 https://view-comic.com/swamp-thing-v2-075/

Swamp Thing describes the different levels of existence, here he explains the Light and Darkness (GEB) as being in Heaven and Hell.

But then when he gets to the realm beyond Time and Space, he says God exists there, breathing in and breathing out, there is a God that is above the Light and GEB and he the Light is likely an aspect of God (as is the Darkness too).

After explaining Heaven and Hell, ST goes on to explain as we go beyond all boundaries and beyond all spacetime.

"God breathes in and God breathes out" Implying the Void is a distinct God from the Light, and this could be the Overvoid.

I said GEB had a stalemate with a weakened Light, how does that imply they're the same? Did you even read what I said? Also so far only the EH has appeared in JL Incarnate, we've only seen feats from a portion of the GEB not the whole thing.

Yeah, and I'm saying the Light isn't the Presence because the Presence causes Multiversal destruction multiple times and survived unscathed, and doesn't get weakened unlike the Light that gets weakened by the destruction of universes.

See?

Now you're contradicting yourself, you said the Presence can easily destroy the GEB, but doing so would cause the Presence to die as well, so how is he so much more powerful if he's dependent on the GEB? Also the GEB is more so an aspect/version of Lucifer, not Lucifer itself.

Also Michael didn't necessarily bring him back, he killed an angel who fell into heaven, thus repeating the cycle and bringing back Lucifer.

That only applies to the Judeo-Christian aspect of the Presence, it doesn't apply to his ultimate self that can traverse the Void and exceed dependency on the Multiverse, cause Multiversal destruction as he himself isn't weakened, as he constantly demonstrated in Carey Run Lucifer.

There is a Presence dependent on belief.

There is a Presence NOT dependent on belief, like the one that Dream of the Endless spoke to, Glory/Shekinah an aspect of the Presence who was immune to Dream's spacetime retcons, or the God beyond timespace in the ST scan I showed you.

The Presence allows himself to become part of religious beliefs or not.

It also points to it being near omnipotent, so the Presence being weakened is not impossible.

It doesn't apply to the Overvoid who is not predicated on religious beliefs though, and the Presence has multiple aspects as the Overvoid, and the one in the multiverse predicated on religious beliefs.

No it refers to the Presence as the supreme being of the omniverse, and also calls it near-omnipotent, you can't pick and choose what you want. And you already admitted the Presence ceased to exist in the newest Lucifer run lol.

When it called the Presence near Omnipotent, it was referring to a Presence that existed AFTER reality, not BEFORE it. The Presence has an aspect that existed BEFORE reality, and also AFTER reality, he allows religious beliefs to shape lower aspects of himself.

The Overvoid is not predicated on religious beliefs, and the Presence is also the Overvoid. There is a Presence predicated on belief and one not predicated on belief, this is the Overvoid.

Read your own scan.

Also, Destiny of the Endless's book is a side-effect of the Presence's power, only an aspect of himself ceased to exist.

All I asked for scans to show that the Voice and Light are the same being, but you haven't proven that. In fact Phantom Stranger, who's commanded by the Voice didn't refer to the Light as the Voice. He used the term "light".

That proves that the Light and the Voice are synonymous beings, because to the Phantom Stranger, the Light and the Voice are the same, and you have no evidence that they are distinct.

Has Spectre or PS ever distinguished the Voice or the Light? No, because PS is also commanded by the Voice and commanded by the Light because they are the same.

It's so hilarious that you provide my own evidence against you.

Ran away? They had a stalemate and then he went into a slumber, ran away would imply that he was losing or the Light wasn't stopping and he ran.

He ran away to Hell, and the Presence almost destroyed the Multiverse, all its inhabitants, the GEB included with it had he destroyed hell. GEB is literally weakened by that fight because he has to collect all his avatars to destroy one Multiverse while the Presence can casually destroy it without reunifying all his aspects at all.

I never said it was on the same level as the Presence.

You said GEB and the Presence had a stalemate and you are desperately trying to place GEB on the same level as the Presence even though feats of the Presence across many authors and anti-feats of GEB in the JL Incarnate prove otherwise.

Again more made up claims, where is it said that the Light is predicated on human beliefs? The Pre-Crisis multiverse being a feeding ground for the Gentry means they're not just limited to one multiverse, that's just

The fact that the loss of Infinite universes in one Multiverse weakened the Light? Whereas the Presence himself doesn't get weakened by such a thing.

Do you have scans to support this claim? An issue number at least? Is the GEB ever brough up in the comic?

Here.

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Lucifer-2018/TPB-The-Devil-At-Heart?id=191349

Lucifer erases himself from Destiny's book, causing Darkness and Evil to disappear, this causes the Presence to also cease existing because he is dependent on Darkness (who else could the Darkness be if not GEB?) as Presence is dependent on GEB/Lucifer's existence and vice versa, until Michael Demiurgos brought Lucifer back.

Well it did say "possibly", but it does mention that the Presence is near-omnipotent, and there is only one entry for The Presence, it's aspects like The Voice has a seperate entry so no there's no differentiation going on here between a multiversal or omniversal presence.

An internal DC editorial fuck up. They were wondering to place Presence as being Multiversal or Omniversal then placed both just because for the lulz, but far far far far far more evidence in DC Comics points the Presence as being Omniversal, not Multiversal.

Especially in JM De Matteis's Presence where his Presence is the Overvoid and absolutely surpasses and transcends all in Creation and is Omnipotent according to him.

Also that scan of yours only refers to an aspect of the Presence created by religious beliefs that existed after a given Multiverse existed, and it doesn't apply to the Overvoid Presence who existed before reality did like in Matteis, Vertigo, M. Carey, Ostrander, etc.

I already know the Presence and the Voice aren't the exact same thing, but again you're just bringing up things not relevant to the question at hand.

Which is irrelevant to my question, the Voice being restricted to SOG or whatnot doesn't prove that the Voice is the Light.

Ok? This still doesn't prove that the Voice is the Light, you've yet to showcase that.

TLDR, you are repeating yourself and I realize that you do nothing to draw commonality between the Light depicted in the JL Incarnate and all other previous versions of the Presence who is unharmed by Crisis events that he himself caused.

You realize the fact that the Light is weakened by one Multiverse proves that the Light is just an aspect of the Presence who often causes near Multiversal destruction right?

And you haven't proven that the Light that faced the GEB is on the same level of power as the Voice, there's no mention of the Light being in the SOG, in fact there's almost no mention of the Light outside of the Swamp Thing storyline and JL Incarnate.

Lmao, you said it yourself that GEB ran away to Hell, during that time, GEB was almost destroyed by the Presence during the duration of Lucifer. Meanwhile the Voice is hanging in the opposite of Hell, in the Silver City, all in all, the Presence transcends Creation and GEB doesn't, and exists in infinitely many other Multiverses and is the Overvoid itself and GEB is literally bound by the Concept of Destiny of the Endless's book in Lucifer.

The Presence literally has aspects of himself that one can kill and weaken with Prep, but it doesn't affect his true transcendent infinite self.

What evidence do you have that GEB is operating nearly on the same level as the Presence in the Overvoid?

The new stuff just mentions the Light, that's it, it doesn't say that this the Voice, you're the one trying to fit in this new theory that the Light is just the Voice without any evidence to back it up. Also the Empty Hand was feasting on the Pre-Crisis multiverse prior to JL Incarnate, so it's not exactly limited to one multiverse.

The Pre-Crisis Multiverse is literally just 1 Multiverse among infinitely many others in the Omniverse, so whether it is the Pre-Crisis Multiverse or not, he is still not a threat to the grander Overvoid.

The fact that the Light is predicated on human religious beliefs (while the true Presence himself isn't) is proof that the Light weakened in the JL Incarnate spoken of, is just an aspect of the Presence because the Presence survived unscathed many times while the Light was weakened.

Do you have any evidence that the GEB is "bound" to Destiny of The Endless?

Read the latest Lucifer chapter comic. The Great Darkness of the Multiverse ceases to exist once you remove Lucifer's name from the Book of Destiny of the Endless, this also causes the Presence's Judeo-Christian aspect to cease to exist as the Presence depends on the GEB's existence and the GEB, on the Presence. The fact that Judeo-Christianity is limited to only 1 Multiverse and GEB is symbiotically independent and essential to just a Judeo-Christian God of human belief proves that GEB's influence doesn't extend beyond Destiny.

That's literally the plot of the latest Lucifer comic.

You're evidence isn't sufficient, you're just posting random scans of a being called the Voice, but none of it actually shows the Light and the Voice as the same thing.

Likewise, what evidence do you have that the Light that got weakened here is legitimately the same as the different versions of the Presence from Matteis to M. Carey, and co. who either utterly transcend the Mayhem of the Multiverse, all the way to the Void, and is not affected by Crisis events while the Light is?

Solve this inconsistency for me please, and then I'll shut up, wait, better yet, explain why the erasure of the GEB is a function of Destiny of the Endless's book in Lucifer????? The same Destiny who is just a side effect of the Presence's Plan, and whose book is limited only to 1 Multiverse in the Overvoid?

Also the New DC Multiversal Handbook says the Presence is the known arbiter known multiverse, but not possibly the greater omniverse, so it does cast doubt on it ruling over other creations, it also refers to it as "near-omnipotent" not omnipotent.

That only refers to the aspect of the Presence in that local Multiverse.

This scan here I have is literally from the same guidebook, Perpetua is the Creator of the Multiverse, and the Presence as the Omniverse's SUPREME BEING, that means Presence >>>>>> GEB.

That scan you have is only referring to the Multiversal Presence, not the Omniversal Presence.

The cards are stacked against you.