thopples

Please explain to me, when was Marvel's cosmology and its abstracts at their most powerful?

Was it before Starlin's retcon making TOAA not Omnipotent? Was it before LT was killed by the Beyonders? In what year of revision was Marvel at its most powerful?

Because we can possibly define a "Pre-Retcon Marvel Cosmology when it was at its most powerful" we can call it the "High-point Marvel Cosmology" and use that for debates instead.

If we can define a Pre-Retcon Beyonder for debates and ignore future retcons/future anti-feats and jobbing of the Beyonder, we can do the same for the rest of the Marvel abstracts.

Lucifer also flew to the end of the Multiverse, flying to the Source Wall, not using teleportation but by motion/flight (which is countably additive as a function). That is also not something I said.

The character you are a fan of, demonstrated that the Presence's Multiverse is finite in some dimensional axis and in some areas, it is finite in many of its structures but infinite in many others of its structures, but ultimately, the Presence's Multiverse is Infinite on the inside, but finite from the outside.

The only thing that is Boundlessly Absolutely Infinite in DC is the Void, as in, it is infinite in the sense that it is not bound by some finite object from a higher layer of existence, since the Void is Infinite and Eternal by the time Lucifer 2000 concluded.

Eternity? You mean Eternity from Marvel? Pardon, but I don't recall such a character in DC.

That doesn't make any sense. What do you mean by "Beyond Infinity"? If you refer to certain properties that bypass units of power, like some sort of weird hax or conceptual mechanics, ie. an immaterial ghost who can tank an infinite amount of physical energy, because of properties that are removed from some other type of value due to an ontological indifference and type error.

But in terms of size, the Source Wall is literally not infinite in size. You can reach the end of the Source Wall via a spaceship or just "flying" there, you realize Lucifer literally flew to the END of Creation right?

Yahweh's Multiverse is only internally infinite, infinite but bounded by a finite shape.

Proof that multiverses exist?

How do you know any verse is infinite in size? You go by a narrative statement, most preferably an omniscient narrator of the story, then you just believe it and accept it based on a statement.

If we're being super strict, DC's cosmology isn't even infinite at all given that it's all bound by the Source Wall Bubble, of course you can argue an object is infinitely larger on the inside but that's all Bounded Infinity, not Unbounded Infinity.

But that doesn't matter since a lot of the cosmic magic is qualititatively amped by an Unbounded Infinite being beyond the Source Wall.

LT typically goes by statements, ontology and power-scaling. Not feats.

But that's fine. The only evidence we have that a multiverse is infinite are statements that it is infinite, and we assume it to be true anyway.

You said you don't think yet you argue for something that cannot be thought of.

The moment you claimed things occurring beyond your reasoning, it's possible, therefore a Banana can defeat an Omnipotent because the statement "Banana defeats Omnipotent beings" falls within the realm of what is beyond logic and reason.

If you consider things that are beyond logic and reason, therefore a Banana can defeat an Omnipotent, then why bother discussing Omnipotent beings?

> Trying to use logic and reason to argue for something beyond logic and reason

And then you wonder why you're not being taken seriously. If it's beyond logic and reason, why are you trying to talk about it?

And asking for "feats" of the Banana is a question based on Versus debating "logic" as you demand proof for accepting its validity, so there, you are trying to use logic again when you claimed that it's beyond logic. So therefore, by continuing to argue against me, you conceded.

At least we both agree Nigh-Omnipotence is a thing.

I agree, hence why I wonder why you give restrictions to TRUE OMNIPOTENCE. Logic and consistency are subject to OUR thinking.

Omnipotence is a never ending on-going study of philosophy, there could be an infinite or an absolute infinite amount of variations of Omnipotence that one can describe. And there will be problems we have to solve and we as Omnipotentists (those who believe Omnipotence can be used in a versus debate) will always encounter such problems and we will solve it.

But that doesn't mean you tell others that their definition of Omnipotence is "fake" when they agree at least that it's the greatest power in fiction, that's not approaching a debate, that's dismissing it,.

But there are things that cannot change, there can be no multiple co-equal Omnipotent Wills, therefore an Omnipotent Mind is simultaneously perceiving all of Creation's Spacetime from their perspective.

Put it this way, imagine you and I are time travelling together, Cosmic, across Spacetime. Can you escape the Omnipotent's will? No. Let me show you what happens. Consider this scenario.

You and I decide to have fun and time travel to different points of history every second, we are pressing our "Time Travel" button every second and each time you and I are transpored to a different point in history.

An Omnipotent exists in a higher universe (that is greater than our own) and in his realm, Time flows differently and doesn't flow the same as Time in the regular physical Universe. And in the Omnipotent's Home-Dimension, he has his own Clock or Watch that flows separately from the rest of the Universe, as he observes you and I time travelling to different point as we move back and forth in time every second. And he can measure us using his own time.

Omnipotent Clock Second Tick 1 --------> Cosmicreign and Thopples time travelled to 1943

Omnipotent Clock Second Tick 2 --------> Cosmicreign and Thopples time travelled to 2020

Omnipotent Clock Second Tick 3 --------> Cosmicreign and Thopples time travelled to 10,000 BC

Omnipotent Clock Second Tick 4 --------> Cosmicreign and Thopples time travelled to 23,000 AD

Omnipotent Clock Second Tick 5 --------> Cosmicreign and Thopples time travelled to 60,000 BC

Five seconds passed for the Omnipotent, and in each second, you and I time travelled to different points of the Universe, that means that no matter what we do, we cannot escape the measurement of an Omnipotent's TIme.

So notice this, for the Omnipotent God, his watch only ticked five seconds linearly forward in his own time nad it flows independently of the Timespace of the rest of universe. ie. the Omnipotent's clock is still moving linearly, not forward and backward, and exists flowing linearly independent of YOUR time stream and experience and transcends the changes to timeline in all creation and can measure your changes to history.

And we cannot "Turn Back" Omnipotent time, as Omnipotent Time is irreversible to itself, transcendent to our time, and there are many layers of time.

An Omnipotent's consciousness time stream dimension is indivisable, immovable and eternal, irreversible and indivisible. This is why an Omnipotent is really overpowered (among many other things) because the Omnipotent's Time Stream flows independently of regardless of the Time Flow of Creation.

There are two separate time dimensions if an Omnipotent is a given, one is Omnipotent Time, this is the Time stream of the Omnipotent that is absolute and unified across the rest of linear time, and then there is Creation Time.

So if I turn back time in a Universe, only the Omnipotent (among maybe others) is unaffected because their time stream is absolutely untouchable to any domain outside of their own domain of time.

Do you understand? I say an Omnipotent transcends Time because its own Omniscience implies it experiences all of Time at once, and flows independently of Creation time.

If Omnipotence can be defined by levels and layers, then it is not Omnipotence, it's just really powerful reality warping or Nigh-Omnipotence.

I define (true) Omnipotence as something whose power is absolutely unrivalled and can absolutely defeat anything, do anything of course, within the realm of logic and consistency.

This definition of Omnipotence isn't false because legit philosophers consider it. Simply calling it false isn't an argument.

If Omnipotence is beyond our comprehension, we shouldn't be able to even talk about it. Yet we are, and we are describing what an Omnipotent can do.

The moment you tried to reason with human langauge that an Omnipotent must be things and that, you used human language to describe and define your Omnipotent, therefore it is bound within the realm of what humans consider consistent and non-contradictory from a metaphysical standpoint if it is to be considered, so your argument is sort of self-defeating.

The guidebook tells you that Death forced her way into creation bypsassing Lucifer when we know that Lucifer withheld Death from his Adam and Eve, and brought Death in his Creation upon request, so it didn't describe what was shown on panel, it contradicted an established earlier chapter. If one wants Death to not occur in Creation, just simply don't make anything die in it, which is what Lucifer did until he willingly let Death into his Creation, ceasing to withhold Death and allowing his Man and Woman to die at their request.

An Omnipotent may manifest itself into individuals assigned to one in the past, present and future, but all these manifestations and avatars are dependent, contingent, inferior to, and act according to One Supreme will, and this Supreme Will's temporality is indivisible across time, and experiences all of Creations' Linear Timespace simultaneously.

If an Omnipotent creates a temporal avatar of itself, well, there that is true but remember this avatar must be inferior to the real Omnipotent. But the real Omnipotent itself cannot have a divided consciousness, each one equally as Omnipotent as individuals as the other and each with a different will as you have multiple Omnipotents each one that may have a different opinion and will, therefore conflict and thus debunking Omnipotence.

We also cannot have Illogical Omnipotents as that is the same as saying TOAA is inferior to a Banana since you moved the domain out of logic. Therefore we can only have Omnipotents that do things that are possibly describable.