Post is 75% done -- thanks for the bump, ahah.
TheTrueBarryAllen's forum posts
Apologies for such a delay on my part -- school just started up again so my free time was totally lost. I've got the long weekend to get my post up though, so expect something.
Countering Sly's Nitpicking
Congratulations, you've made an error in assuming the capabilities of my characters and spent far too much time trying to prevent my prep from happening instead of responding to it. Let's take each of your statements apart one by one so you can actually focus on some counter's next round.
The first thing and most important issue with your prep is that alot of the items included in it are not part of your character's arsenal and therefore it would be heavily out of character for them to use them in the way that you have stated unless shown otherwise. If you have feats or examples of these characters using other people items willingly and effectively then let me know and I'll move on from this point.
- Hank Henshaw has utilized Kryptonian & Apokolips technology throughout his history. He's also given Lantern Rings (in the OP) due to having used them in the past.
- Weather Wizard was one of the Rogues who worked with T.O. Morrow to create Replicant, the super-rogue. He also has worked with each of the Rogues (being one himself) and knows where their hideouts are, and yes, they have multiple versions of all of their weapons.
- Cyborg has knowledge on the Watchtower and everything inside it due to being connected to the Grid and serving as the essential database for all friends/foes of the Justice League. He also battled against Mento several times alongside Beast Boy and became familiar with his Mento Helmet during that time period.
Most of the time, when in the prep-phase, it takes place on an uninhabited world, even if the world itself is usually populated. So I shouldn't have to fight anyone, but, since you seem to think I'd have to fight people:
- Weather Wizard wouldn't have to fight the Rogues to gain access to the Humanifold & their weaponry, and if he did then Cyborg Superman could simply turn all their tech against them. Weather Wizard wouldn't have an issue with it due to perfect team work.
- Cyborg can simply port in/out of Mento's Mansion and obtain the Helmet. In fact, I'm fairly sure Mento retired and the Helmet is simply sitting in his house, of which Cyborg is highly familiar with due to his encounters in the past. Also worth noting that Mento is a friend of the Titans despite going mad early on and fighting against them for several years.
- The Watchtower defenses can be shut down by Cyborg if they activated against Henshaw & Weather Wizard. Henshaw could also simply BECOME the Watchtower like he's done in the past when he turned ALL of it's defenses against Batman & Superman.
- Henshaw went into the Fortress of Solitude during Rebirth and used the equipment within to enact a part of his plan, he would be willing to do it again in order to prep here; it's also worth noting that Cyborg has also shut down the Fortress' security systems in the past.
Let's move on.
Unlike my prep, where the tech used by my characters is not only easily accessible, it is standard for the team. They have actual feats using each piece of tech. Whereas your team seems to be reliant on items that it would be out of character from them to use. And so far you have provided no reason to why they would act in this manner especially considering they have no knowledge on who they are fighting and what their powers are. No one on your team is a notable tactician so I'm not seeing where this grandiose scheme is coming from.
What a load of crap.
Weather Wizard has experience with the following technology:
- Rogue Weaponry
Cyborg has experience with the following technology:
- Mento's Helmet
Hank Henshaw has experience/knowledge of the following technology:
- Duplicator Ray (and pretty much all other Kyrptonian Technology)
The only item that 'MIGHT' be questionable is the Prometheus Helmet which I could simply do without, so if you want that taken out of the fight, sure, you've got it.
Cyborg Superman is huge on upgrading himself, he did much of this during the Sinestro Corps war when he installed a variety of "odd technologies" into himself in order to become the perfect combat machine, he's not against incorporating new technology to become stronger and more powerful.
Both he & Cyborg are also master tacticians. Henshaw has created a variety of grandiose schemes throughout his history and Cyborg has the ability to run probability outcomes and prepare for pretty much any scenario; he's also one of the JL's master tacticians alongside Batman, especially within the N52/Rebirth world.
Dismissing the two of them as pushovers is a serious mistake, sure, they're no 'Maker' but that doesn't mean they're brainless idiots, especially when the two of them have prep history.
You also mention that they have "no reason" to act in the way they're acting -- I don't see how improving their fire power and providing themselves with additional resistances because none of them can counter something like TP for example in their vanilla forms (excluding Henshaw) is out of character, you're grasping.
For example, why would your team have access to the Fortress of Solitude? None of them frequent the Fortress. And its possible that the Fortresses defenses would target them as uninvited guests. And even if they could get into the Fortress, why would they go straight for the duplicate ray especially considering that no one on this team has used or even interacted with said device. That fact itself shows that this would be hella out of character.
Both Cyborg & Henshaw have been to the Fortress and both of them can disarm the security. Henshaw in Rebirth used plenty of Kyrptonian technology in order to bring together some of Superman's greatest foes. Henshaw is simply using his knowledge of his own genetic coding (Superman's) with that of the Duplicator Ray to add an additional member to their team, just like how he went to the Moon to dig up Eradicator and broke Zod out of Prison for the sake of making a plan work.
Ignoring the fact that villians such as Weather Master and Cyborg Superman, would definitely trigger the JL's automated defenses, why would Cyborg think to steal various trinkets from the Watchtower that he has never used before. Especially since Cyborg would only have experience fighting against items used against the JL in the New 52 since he only served in that continuity. He has little to no experience with Pre-52 items such as Prometheus' helmet among other things. Even if he did have experience with these items, why would Cyborg or any of the memebers on his team feel the need to armor themselves with these items. It would be like if I use Xavier to get the Mind Gem in prep. Theoretically, he could do so but... is it in character?
Ignoring the fact that Cyborg and Henshaw could shut down the defenses in an instant, Cyborg has detailed knowledge on each of the Justice League's friends and foes. Him taking a single item to improve his team's effectiveness in combat doesn't seem out of character in the least, especially when he knows who Prometheus is and what he's capable of.
Regardless, if you don't want us to have the Prometheus helmet then fine -- this is the only point that I agree might've been a stretch, but even then, it's still very, very plausible, you just lack creativity.
Additionally, Cyborg building his own t-spheres is a stretch. One, Cyborg has absolutely no knowledge on my team or what they will be bringing to the fray. So why would he randomly focus on building t-spheres or countering them.
You're right, he doesn't have any knowledge on your team, and that matters.... why?
Batman built his own T-Spheres because he thought they'd be useful. Cyborg is with a group of people that rely heavily on technology and has access to the information to create this device that'll aid them. It's not random nor is it a huge focus.
Another stretch is that Henshaw would use his technopathy to duplicate the tech found in the JL Watchtower especially since he has little to no practical experience with said tech and has not perform anything close to this feat while in character. Not saying he couldn't do it but you have yet to show me that he could.
Henshaw literally WAS the Watchtower before.
I also love the single bit of dialogue he has here -- I will use EVERYTHING in my power to defeat him. Seems like the attitude of someone who would be willing to do anything/everything to become more powerful, but, idk, might not be in character for him.
I'm sorry if this feels repetitive but the same case kinda goes for this part of your prep as well. Just because Weather Master has knowledge of his teammates equipment doesn't mean that his first thought will be to armor himself to the T with tech he doesn't use normally. There's a question to if he even has access to equipment like Mirror Masters tech which should be with you know Mirror Master. But more importantly, he has no motivation to suddenly pick up his mates weapon. Nor, does he has the expertise of Mirror Master needed to perform the feats on MM's level. The same goes for the other Rogue weapons.
The Rogues leave their copies of their gear hidden in their various hideouts. Penguin had even stolen some of it and sold it on the Black Market to the highest bidder, the argument that the weapons "wouldn't be there" is a serious waste of time and I'm honestly annoyed I have to respond to something this mundane.
And you're right -- it might not be Weather Wizard's idea, but the two technological prep lords on my team who are constantly upgrading themselves to be as versatile as possible, they might find the idea of obtaining that tech enticing.
There's also very little experience required to use that technology to the fullest -- sure, the Rogues themselves are more familiar with it, but Cyborg and Henshaw should have no problems with it, and Weather Wizard has been around it his whole life. The only two who MIGHT struggle would be Alice & Bizarro but that's not a big deal.
This case in heavily emphasized as none of the other characters on your team would want to use these weapons. Cyborg Superman, Black Alice, and Cyborg already have their own formidable powersets to bring to the table. Unless they knew how outclassed they were, why would they feel the need to add items they have never used before to their arsenal.
...and Cyborg Superman and Cyborg are constantly upgrading themselves to become more powerful. Sure, Henshaw didn't NEED the Yellow & Green Power rings he obtained during the Sinestro Corps War, but they were a nice power addition to his already massive set of powers.
In conclusion, the main problem with your prep is that it is out of character for your team to behave in this manner. I learned this lesson the hard way as it is the only reason I've ever lost a CAV before *Knocks on Wood* In my second CaV against Higorm, I argue that my team of warriors would back off to safety instead of engaging the battle like they normally would. And HiGorM being the expert debater he is pointed out that was hella outta character and that there was no reason for my team to behave in that way. And I believe that you have made the same mistake. Your team has no idea what's coming so they can't prep to specifically counter my team ( Cyborg and the t-spheres prep agrument for example) and they definitely don't have a reason to go out of the their way to use other peoples equipment.
My team didn't prep to specifically counter YOUR TEAM.
- They already had a counter against any sort of magic due to Black Alice -- they need not spend time countering that.
- They have counter's against technology, but could bolster those counters easily with knowledge that Cyborg has. Thus the T-Sphere creation.
- They have no counters against TP (aside from Henshaw) and needed a counter to that; hence the application of the Lantern Rings (which Henshaw already has on his person considering I bought him WITH RINGS, and the Mento Helmet that Cyborg has experience with), thus they utilized their knowledge to cover this.
I would understand your gripe with my prep if I was claiming that Cyborg Superman would build items from the Marvel Universe or something of that nature, but I'm literally visiting 4/5 places using someone who can teleport everyone instantly and at least one person on the team having knowledge of the place they've traveled to.
An hour isn't as short as you're making it out to be -- and what this team could accomplish given their powers and abilities is pretty great.
How do you expect your team to come up with a scheme like this and collect the materials for such a plan in an hour? Setting aside the fact that it would be out of character to do so, there isn't any master strategists or prep-gods on your team like there are on mine. Nor do they have the mindscape to make the most of their prep time. So how would they come up with a plan to gather various trinkets from around the DCU especially the obscure or protected ones, and then actually executing it in a hour?
I have individuals who can prep and have the "mindscape" to come up with extravagant plans. The locations being visited are all very common locations for at least 1 member on the team, we have access to silent & instantaneous teleportation via Cyborg's Boom/Hush Tubes.
Stating that I don't have any "prep gods" on my team when I have someone who is literally a walking database and another whom almost took down the entire GLC by himself via an "extravagant plan" isn't wise.
Hank Henshaw vs Spartan
Apparently this is an elephant in the room?
Spartan who has rendered himself invisible, is poised to neutralize the highest priority target once the battle starts as it is best way to achieve victory. He has been described as having one goal: victory at any price. Once he has a battleplan he will exxecute with mathematical precision.
...aaaannnd Cyborg Superman has the same sensory abilities as Superman, so invisibility isn't gonna do much of anything. The other stuff here is just fluff.
Given that even before his Void upgrade he could sense power levels like so, he will identify Cyborg Superman as the most powerful person here. Given that I have shown Spartan can scan entire cities for bio-signatures, and other things...
Cool. I'll accept that he'll view Cyborg Superman as the most powerful even though everyone on my team pretty much has the same level of power(s) after my prep and viewing Henshaw as the most "powerful" seems subjective and like you're targeting the character who has the best chance of beating Spartan first, but I'll take it.
Now for some reason, you believe that Cyborg can make his teammates invisible to tech like Mr. T even tho
Yep, I do.
The only way Majestic could get around the tactic was through his hypersense detecting particle variance which only gave him a nanoseconds worth of warning...
Seems like a pretty fancy way of saying there was an energy signature change that happened. Henshaw is fully capable of noting these energy shifts/signatures (like he did with Blue Energy Superman) and would respond to them.
Now add in the fact that Spartan is invisible (to visuals and to tech) and your team will be preocupied with Spartan's Army of sentries and its safe to say Henshaw will get blitzed.
Technology can't "see" Spartan, but, as I had shown with the scans in regards to Mr. Terrific and his T-Mask, that invisibility is wildly over-stated. Henshaw is a unique case in that he's a cyborg, man and machine. He has Superman's senses to detect Spartan through his invisibility, and his organic parts would allow him to bypass his "invisibility" to technology.
The army of Sentries is a moot point considering they'd get turned against you in an instant. Cyborg Superman was capable of turning entire populations and planets of technology to his will.
Now lets take the fact Tao who could remake reality was rendered inert by the creation blades as shown in the mini post it is safe to say Henshaw is out of the fight.
If for some reason you do manage to destroy Henshaw's body you haven't killed him and he'll jump to the next available piece of technology and will turn it into a new body for him -- that could certainly be Spartan. He did a similar thing to the Alpha Lantern, Boodikka during ROD.
In fact, he created a new body using technological scraps in mere SECONDS.
He'd simply do the same thing to Spartan.
Sidenote: Member how you said my team doesn't have transmutation resistance. Spartan is literally resisting reality warping here so...
Cool, 2/3 members of your team don't have transmutation resistance.
Spartan, if he feels necessary, can teleport Cyborg Superman away to the middle of the Boomspheres which prevents the possibility of a rescue. The swords need to be removed for Henshaw to be able to regain his bearings (if he can recover before the battle is over that is) and anyone that gets close to the broken Cyborg will be teleported apart...
And due to his own ability to teleport and/or take over the Boom Sphere's this isn't an issue, also, the Creation Blades are shards of the Creation Engine, an ancient piece of powerful technology. Henshaw could simply add them into his own being, especially considering we're talking about the guy who freely used the Source Wall and bent it to his will via Technopathy.
Also worth noting that destroying Henshaw's body doesn't kill him.
Xavier can attempt to TP Cyborg Superman as he has incapped a Sentinel with a mind blast and has breached psionic defenses of planetary telepaths and has fought entities like the Dark Phoenix (with help still impressive none the less) before. (Can provide feats if necessary)
....and Cyborg Superman has been explicitly noted to resist telepathy and has the added bonuses of the Mento Helmet and the Lantern Rings, the very same rings that could counter MMH's telepathy, who is on par with Charles. Next?
The TP argument that stated before extends to Cyborg especially since he doesn't have psionic shielding that Cyborg Superman has. Due to the outta character nature of your prep, there will be no trinkets bolstering your TP defense. So like I said before, he could TPed in a variety of flavors. But lets just say you get slept.
Now your main argument is that Cyborg will use technopathy to shut down our teams tech. (provided he can do so before getting slept. Keep in mind it took him a significant amount of effort and time to hack in the Motherbox tech so this won't be easy). Here's why it won't work even if he gets the chance to attempt.
Cyborg Superman is doing this, not Victor Stone Cyborg. It also didn't take him a significant amount of time to hack the Motherbox technology and that was when he was literally FIRST MADE.
Weather Wizard & Black Alice
Both are immune to TP due to Lantern Rings + Mento Helmet, so we'll ignore that.
If Spartan want's to focus & kill Weather Wizard, go for it. Literally just bought him for knowledge on the Humanifold and the Rogue Weaponry.
If Spartan wants to focus & kill Black Alice I'd note she has the ability to teleport away given the tech she has access to thanks to prep, but, like with Weather Wizard, she's on my team to counter magic. You don't have that so Alice isn't essential and I won't waste time arguing for her survival.
You underestimate my team and their knowledge/ability to prepare for an encounter/willingness to do whatever it takes.
You provide no legitimate counter for Cyborg Superman and I'm still waiting on how Spartan resists his technopathy, or how the Boom Sphere's resist it, or how the apparent army you have resist it.
You mention using TP to probe my team when they have more than enough in the name of TP defenses.
If you manage to destroy Cyborg Superman's body you haven't killed him and he'll simply do what he did to Boodikka to Spartan, there goes the only worthwhile member of your team.
Spend your next post attempting to counter Cyborg Superman's technopathy instead of dodging the question and making a flimsy argument against my prep.
@sirfizzwhizz: His physicals and durability have allowed him to fight Aquaman level foes before, but he doesn't have tons of feats in regards to that to really allow for much debate.
And it honesty seemed like this was intended to be a spite thread, and no offense to you, but I wouldn't put it past you to do such a thing.
No, I just don't think he's physically strong enough to take Invincible down in H2H and I'm unsure his White Sound Cannon would be able to put him down before Invincible rushes him.
Cool narrative tho.
So why is he on the Justice league team again?
He's fully capable of taking down most technological threats due to his connection to the Grid and his ability to integrate foreign technology into his being makes him highly adaptable. He can run chance/probability simulations, analyze the environment and create 3D rendering's of the battleground, and more.
Like -- he's a useful member of the League. Did you literally just create this thread to try and bash him?
No, I just don't think he's physically strong enough to take Invincible down in H2H and I'm unsure his White Sound Cannon would be able to put him down before Invincible rushes him.
Cool narrative tho.