@drgnx said:
@thejman250 said:
@drgnx said:
@thejman250 said:
@nelomaxwell said:
@thejman250 said:
- Replace one black character with another black character.
- Because Batwing definitely has to be black. Interesting.
Could've been asian or hispanic would've been cool too I think. Personally I think anything but white male could fit at this point because we all know we need another white guy running around in a batsuit policing people .
- If DC's going to make a character Black, simply to have a Black character i think that they should be more discreet about it.
Like how? Replace a white Character with a Black Character, cause would go totally different, or just create a new Black character and give him a new title as soon as they cancel Batwing and call him something else (DreadWing anyone)? I know, lets wait a year or 10 before launching the next Black character?
I mean when Barry got replaced with Wally, I didn't hear any of this reasoning, Batman gets replaced with several other family members and no one applies this logic, but a Black character gets replaced with a Black Character, heaven forbid that DC "might" clearly want a Black character in that role...
- "Like how"? Perhaps in a way that wasn't so painfully obvious.
- Am i supposed to care that you have a Black character just to have one? At least Simon Baz was inserted in a more discreet manner.
- Diversity simply for the sake of diversity is not something i'm fond of. What's next, create a random gay arabic black character simply for the sake of having a gay arabic black character?
- Yes, this applies because Wally definitely wasn't a part of the series thus far. Oh wait, it doesn't and your argument fails. Surprise, surprise.
- Batman gets replaced by Family members who weren't a part of the series thus far. Oh wait, your argument fails here as well.
- Replacing one black character with another black character simply to have a black character fill that role is completely different than having your sidekick replace you when you happen to fall in the line of fire as they've basically been training for that scenario.
- Try again, and hopefully you'll have better arguments next time.
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"Like how"? Perhaps in a way that wasn't so painfully obvious.
Like give an example to back up your point, under their current constraints (Their goal to introduce a character close to Batman, different and unattached to David, and yes, a Black one at that, and under their obligation to finish off story lines of the current Batwing).
- Am i supposed to care that you have a Black character just to have one? At least Simon Baz was inserted in a more discreet manner.
How was it more discrete, explain, don't just state
- Diversity simply for the sake of diversity is not something i'm fond of. What's next, create a random gay arabic black character simply for the sake of having a gay arabic black character?
You repeated you first statement but replaced Black with Diversity, what does any of this prove? Will you be complaining about women next too? Here, is something to chew on: the first 2 versions of Batgirl were introduced in the same manner(out of nowhere, related to per-existing characters). Chew Away!!!
- Yes, this applies because Wally definitely wasn't a part of the series thus far. Oh wait, it doesn't and your argument fails. Surprise, surprise.
What difference does it make if he was part of the series before or not, Was Simon, your example, part of the series before they introduced him? NO! You need to be introduced at some point, there is no rule of when.
- Batman gets replaced by Family members who weren't a part of the series thus far. Oh wait, your argument fails here as well.
No it does not, because nobody cried about them replacing Batman with another WHITE character, which was my point, because you're crying that a Black character was replaced with another Black character without discretion. The only thing that fails is your comprehension. Trying to point out that Luke is a new Character, which apparently his has been shown prior, is pointless because it is nothing new for a new character to appear out of nowhere. So there is nothing indiscreet about just introducing a new character and retconning them into history, which means your basically crying about a Black on Black replacement and looking for reasons to justify it.
- Replacing one black character with another black character simply to have a black character fill that role is completely different than having your sidekick replace you when you happen to fall in the line of fire as they've basically been training for that scenario.
Except, no one complained that a White character replaced a white character, like when Azriel took over Batman, I didn't recall him being a side-kick. You still never explained why DC needs to be discrete either, but nice attempt to dodge the main point I was making. It has not escaped me with your "responses" ...
Try again, and hopefully you'll have better arguments next time.
The only thing I failed at was getting a proper response from you.
Like give an example to back up your point, under their current constraints (Their goal to introduce a character close to Batman, different and unattached to David, and yes, a Black one at that, and under their obligation to finish off story lines of the current Batwing).
- I don't need an example to back up my point sir. I'm not obligated to brainstorm for DC simply because they lack the brain capacity to do it themselves.
- Yes, Batwing has to be black, because they must have a black character. Oh ok. Having a black character, just for the sake of having a black character. Surprise, surprise.
You don't need to back up your points in a debate? .... Concession accepted
How was it more discrete, explain, don't just state
- Figure it out. I don't have to explain my opinion to you sir. Try again.
Concession accepted
You repeated you first statement but replaced Black with Diversity, what does any of this prove? Will you be complaining about women next too? Here, is something to chew on: the first 2 versions of Batgirl were introduced in the same manner(out of nowhere, related to per-existing characters). Chew Away!!!
- Yes, because David was definitely related to someone else prior to his inception. Oh wait. Your point fails once again.
- If you are illiterate i'm not going to keep reiterating myself. My point is clear as day, figure it out.
Except I'm clearly talking about Luke. Notice I used the word "replaced"? Before you talk about illiteracy, you should learn to read.
What difference does it make if he was part of the series before or not, Was Simon, your example, part of the series before they introduced him? NO! You need to be introduced at some point, there is no rule of when.
- Everything sir. Your examples that you brought up failed completely. RIchard and Wally didn't suddenly turn white when they became Batman and the flash, they had been white for what is most likely a longer period of time than you have been alive.
And Luke didn't suddenly turn black so you fail. I also find it funny you comment about their starting color has nothing to do with the actual point regarding how Simon's introduction varied in being discrete, You'll need to troll harder kid.
No it does not, because nobody cried about them replacing Batman with another WHITE character, which was my point, because you're crying that a Black character was replaced with another Black character without discretion. The only thing that fails is your comprehension. Trying to point out that Luke is a new Character, which apparently his has been shown prior, is pointless because it is nothing new for a new character to appear out of nowhere. So there is nothing indiscreet about just introducing a new character and retconning them into history, which means your basically crying about a Black on Black replacement and looking for reasons to justify it.
- Your point that failed atrociously.
- Richard didn't suddenly turn white a couple years ago, he had been white for a time period that is most likely longer than your life. People were going to complain about Richard replacing Bruce because he was white, even though it was the logical step and he had been white for over 50 years? I highly doubt that. The same thing goes for Wally. Two of your pathetic attempts at examples. Surprise, surprise.
Luke started off as Black, so again, your point about Dick's stating color is nonsense and adds nothing to your "argument". The point about someone complaining that DC replaces white characters with others, is that is dumb, just like complaining that DC is replacing a Black character with another because you have failed to give a reason why Luke is clearly not a logical step to be the next Batwing. DC didn't want to cannibalize another character or plotline, so they went with a new character and someone they purposely didn't want associated with David. And as Luke is a new character, as everyone is quick to point out, I find it baffling they would say his is not a logical/good/whatever choice as we know little about him. All people really know is he is black, and that seems like an issue. And Batgirl has already shown that you can introduce a character abruptly and have them make a strong impact.
So by your own reasoning of why Dick can replace Bruce and not be subject to scrutiny of Same race replacements and your use of Simon base as an example of discrete introduction, I'm still waiting for a solid reason that makes Luke an illogical choice. OH wait you don't need to back up your statements do you?
- My comprehension failing is your opinion, try again. As far as i'm concerned, DC is making a character Black just to be Black.
- That's your opinion that there's nothing "indiscreet" and i'm not going to argue with you as i don't really care what you think. As far as i'm concerned, they should do it more discretely. The end.
- I don't need to justify my opinion sir, and especially not to you. You have no authority on the internet, nor does DC.
- I think it's indiscreet and i won't be buying this trash. The end.
LOL you build such a solid argument, however will I overcome this disassemblement of my argument, this staggering analyses and rebuttal, and your killer closing statement.
Except, no one complained that a White character replaced a white character, like when Azriel took over Batman, I didn't recall him being a side-kick. You still never explained why DC needs to be discrete either, but nice attempt to dodge the main point I was making. It has not escaped me with your "responses" ...
- Why i think DC needs to be discreet? I don't have to explain my opinion to you. I don't know who you think you are, but get over it.
Here is a hint, if you're going to post your opinion on the forums, people will question it. You choose to respond to my comments, don't cry because you can't back it up. Concession accepted!
- Because Azriel suddenly appeared after Bruce was crippled, and he definitely wasn't a previously established white character in the series. Another failing point. Surprise surprise. Bruce told Tim to train him. He was basically a sidekick of sorts. Try again.
Barbra appeared out of nowhere and took up the Batgirl mantel out of nowhere. That was my example, not Azriel. The only difference between Barbra and Luke is that there was a gap between the 1st and second Batgirl. Batwing does not have that option because they don't want to cancel the comic. Azriel is just one example of replacing a character of a particular skin color with another character of the same skin color without there being uproar.
Since you clearly don't understand what I've done. Let me explain, I've have deconstructed your argument into its various components.
- Replacing a character with of one race with a character of the same race.
- Introducing a character abruptly (which can include replacing characters)
- Azriel, Dick, Jason, Wally, apply to point 1
- Barbra, Simon apply to point 2 (and technically 2 as well)
A proper argument requires each of its points to individually stand scrutiny. Every time I attack point 1 you've been trying to use point 2 as a crutch even though point 2 is invalidated by your own use of Simon as an example as well as Barbra.
If the concept of replacing a person of a specifically color with a person of the same color is not in itself taboo (point number one), and Introducing a character abruptly is not Taboo I can't see why the combination of the 2 situations would suddenly be so uncanny, especially for Black characters.
I find it laughable that you're unwilling/unable to clearly state why a Black replacement character needs to be intruded discretely, while at the same time, not willing to even define what you mean by discretely, while taking into consideration that the choice to swap was itself relatively sudden.
You don't need to back up your points in a debate? .... Concession accepted
- There definitely wasn't a concession and definitely not to the likes of you. Nice reach.
- I'm not obligated to follow your every demand, try again.
- There is no reason i should have to come up with solutions for DC's idiocy because i'm not being paid to do so. They pay people for a reason, they can figure it out.
- However, me not giving you an example of how it could be done doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. If this is your argument, it's one of the most pathetic arguments i've ever heard. The "absence of evidence = evidence of absence " crap again, hilarious. Wherever i am, that argument never ceases to amuse me.
- I'll throw you a bone though. Simon Baz was introduced discreetly as far as i'm concerned. There's more on this below if you actually read it.
Concession accepted
- Once again, this is cute because there was never a concession. Try again.
Except I'm clearly talking about Luke. Notice I used the word "replaced"? Before you talk about illiteracy, you should learn to read
- Right kid.
the first 2 versions of Batgirl were introduced in the same manner(out of nowhere, related to per-existing characters).
- Introduced is now replaced? I think you need to go back to second grade and learn how to read.
And Luke didn't suddenly turn black so you fail. I also find it funny you comment about their starting color has nothing to do with the actual point regarding how Simon's introduction varied in being discrete, You'll need to troll harder kid.
- Because i was definitely speaking about luke and not david and i definitely brought up Wally and Richard. Oh wait, that's not the case. Try again.
- They had been there for years, if there starting color was an issue it would have been one over 50 years ago or so. Try again.
- You brought up wally and richard, i brought up Simon. Try again.
- Wally and Richard definitely do not have anything to do with Simon.
Luke started off as Black, so again, your point about Dick's stating color is nonsense and adds nothing to your "argument". The point about someone complaining that DC replaces white characters with others, is that is dumb, just like complaining that DC is replacing a Black character with another because you have failed to give a reason why Luke is clearly not a logical step to be the next Batwing. DC didn't want to cannibalize another character or plotline, so they went with a new character and someone they purposely didn't want associated with David. And as Luke is a new character, as everyone is quick to point out, I find it baffling they would say his is not a logical/good/whatever choice as we know little about him. All people really know is he is black, and that seems like an issue. And Batgirl has already shown that you can introduce a character abruptly and have them make a strong impact.
So by your own reasoning of why Dick can replace Bruce and not be subject to scrutiny of Same race replacements and your use of Simon base as an example of discrete introduction, I'm still waiting for a solid reason that makes Luke an illogical choice. OH wait you don't need to back up your statements do you?
- Then i think you need better examples for your point than Batman being replaced by Batman jr. who has been there for over 50 years or so. Not some random black guy being introduced in africa, and then being replaced by a guy who wasn't even in continuity at all as far as i know.
- I think you would be the one to give a reason why Luke would be a logical step to the next Batman. You brought him up the same way you attempted to bring up Richard and Wally, and those points certainly failed. You'll have to do better than that.
- So now you're telling me what DC wanted to do? Ok, you would definitely know what DC's mindset was.
- Because introducing a character abruptly was definitely a one of my points before. Oh wait, it wasn't as this is nothing new in comics. Try again, and read properly.
- You mean why your point of RIchard replacing Bruce fails after he had been there for over 50 years? That's the logical reason, he had been there for over 50 years and had been established as white from BATMAN #1. If the first Robin from Batman #1 wasn't going to become Robin, please tell me who was. John Stewart? The Joker? Or perhaps Aladdin?
- I don't see why anyone would tell you that this point would work sir.
- You mean the way Luke is and obvious attempt to have a black character just to have a black character and that DC is getting rid of David simply because they don't like the sales of the book and nothing more?
- If you actually read Green Lantern, you would have known that Simon becoming green lantern has little with him being arabic, nothing to do with sales, and nearly everything to do with the plot. Moreover, it wasn't forced in the least. Oh, for your information Sinestro is back as well now and apparently hal will be back shortly as well.
- I don't need to back up my opinion, because opinions can't be true regardless but i damn sure can if i choose, and especially against your pathetic arguments.
Here is a hint, if you're going to post your opinion on the forums, people will question it. You choose to respond to my comments, don't cry because you can't back it up. Concession accepted!
- If only i needed to back something up against your pathetic arguments. I'm not here to please you kid, try again.
- You can question my opinion all you want as i don't care what you think either way.
- Being unable to back it up is different from choosing not to kid, because you seem to ignorantly think i have some obligation to do so in order to please you. Try again kid.
- As if there was a concession to the likes of you.
Barbra appeared out of nowhere and took up the Batgirl mantel out of nowhere. That was my example, not Azriel. The only difference between Barbra and Luke is that there was a gap between the 1st and second Batgirl. Batwing does not have that option because they don't want to cancel the comic. Azriel is just one example of replacing a character of a particular skin color with another character of the same skin color without there being uproar.
Since you clearly don't understand what I've done. Let me explain, I've have deconstructed your argument into its various components.
- Replacing a character with of one race with a character of the same race.
- Introducing a character abruptly (which can include replacing characters)
- Azriel, Dick, Jason, Wally, apply to point 1
- Barbra, Simon apply to point 2 (and technically 2 as well)
A proper argument requires each of its points to individually stand scrutiny. Every time I attack point 1 you've been trying to use point 2 as a crutch even though point 2 is invalidated by your own use of Simon as an example as well as Barbra.
If the concept of replacing a person of a specifically color with a person of the same color is not in itself taboo (point number one), and Introducing a character abruptly is not Taboo I can't see why the combination of the 2 situations would suddenly be so uncanny, especially for Black characters.
I find it laughable that you're unwilling/unable to clearly state why a Black replacement character needs to be intruded discretely, while at the same time, not willing to even define what you mean by discretely, while taking into consideration that the choice to swap was itself relatively sudden.
- Oh, Barbra was your example not Azreal even though you brought Azreal up? Is it because Azreal fails at this point? The answer is obviously yes. Nice try.
- Azreal was already there within canon continuity.
- Additionally, the second Batgirl was Asian /Asian american if i'm not mistaken. OH LOOK, DIVERSITY THAT ISN'T SIMPLY FOR THE SAKE OF DIVERSITY.
- They didn't get rid of Barbra specifically to have some Asian replace her did they? No, she had a specific story with the joker that resulted in her being crippled? I suppose this is your concession then.
- My argument is that they are having a Black character simply to have a Black character and nothing more.
- When was "point 2" ever a part of my argument? Sure, it makes it obvious what their doing, but what they're doing is the important thing here which you apparently failed to read.
- Every time you "attack" "point 1" your examples have been utterly, utterly trivial so i suggest you do better. As i said before, i , along with other people, frown on diversity simply for the sake of diversity.
- Again, both of these points make it obvious what they're doing. However, it is apparently not obvious enough for you.
- Have you been reading? I don't care if you replace one character with one of the same race, but if you're just having diversity just to have it then i will frown upon it.
- Replacing a character with one of the same race may be frowned upon depending on how it's done, and it makes certain things painfully obvious.
- You're clearly illiterate as you apparently don't understand the phrase "diversity only/simply for the sake of diversity". It's funny that your "points" weren't actually points of my argument, they just made my point clear as day.
- Clearly a Black character doesn't need to be introduced discreetly as Luke certainly isn't being introduced discreetly. However, if you don't introduce them discreetly it's obviously diversity for the sake of diversity. I'm not sure if you understand what that is though.
- Discreetly doesn't necessarily have to do with time sir, i suggest you familiarize yourself with a dictionary
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