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TheIrishDoctor

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#1  Edited By TheIrishDoctor

@silentnightz: Look, I don't want to continue this back and forth that isn't going to lead us anywhere. All I'll say is that you keep trying to assign intent to what I am saying that is clearly not there. I've made it clear several times that it may be entirely possible that these high-ball interpretations of Bleach feats are totally accurate, and I've said over and over again that the low-ball interpretations that I am giving are almost certainly not exactly right. The reason I'm presenting them is to show how huge of a gap there is between the high ball estimate and the low ball estimate. Since the difference between these estimates are so astronomical, we cannot use them to justify making any real claims.

Despite this you have repeatedly assumed that I am making claims that I am not and even have gone so far as to assume either dishonesty or blanket ignorance on my part when I have admitted to mistakes I've made. I'll admit to another one right now, that I completely and utterly missed the second hole in the ceiling on the panel which shows the Lanza del Relampago, given that it's mostly hidden behind the sound effect word. That's 100% my bad.

I don't want to try and attribute willful ignorance on anyone's part and I'll accept that maybe I've not made my stance on these matters clear and so I'll take the blame on this one and try to clarify my positions one more time...today.

I am making no claims at all. I'm not claiming that Nel is an untrustworthy narrator. I'm only saying that we have no way of knowing how Nel came to her assessment and there are a great many different possible answers that create wildly varying results, which means that looking at the actual structures for ourselves is a more reliable means of trying to figure the answer out.

I trust Nel, but we can't know what Nel was thinking. That's the only point I was trying to make. Everything else was just reasons as to why there can be so many different interpretations of her intentions, not just the high-ball examples given. And the biggest argument against these high-ball interpretations, and the one you have never addressed, is that Nel's words "We don't have to break through the wall, it's only a 3 day walk" clearly show that she doesn't assume that Ichigo and co. are in a rush. It doesn't matter how old she actually is, her behavior clearly shows the naivete of a child.

As for the GRC thing, again I'm not making any assumptions. I know very well that the interpretation that I suggested is ridiculously low-balling. But no matter how much you might feel otherwise, since Ulquiorra never gives any info past the Espada not being allowed to use it because it could destroy Las Noches, it is a valid, albeit ridiculous interpretation. The whole point, just as with Nel, was to show that the possible interpretations are vast in their scope. And just because the pathetically low-ball interpretation I suggest is almost certainly wrong, doesn't mean that the other extreme, that the GRC can one-shot destroy the entire structure, is the only other option.

The reason that we cannot use character statements like Nel's 3 day walk or Ulquiorra's destruction of Las Noches as absolute fact is not because these characters are unreliable. They absolutely are reliable. The reason why statements like these are not a substitute for on-screen feats is because we as the readers do not know the context for what they are saying or what their own interpretations of their statements are. Ulquiorra is trying to psych Ichigo out and get a rise out of him in order to try and understand emotions. Nel was clearly not understanding the hero's rush to save Orihime. These alone are plenty reason to question what they intended by their statements.

As for Las Noches and the pillars, I 100% agree that Kubo's perspectives are weird and we cannot use any picture in isolation to gauge the size of Las Noches, which is why I tried to show several of them from different angles. But I used the image of Ulquiorra standing atop the pillar from below because no matter what your perspective is, that definitively shows the size of Ulquiorra compared to the Diameter of the pillar. We're looking at him and the pillar from the same angle so even if there is some dramatic foreshortening going on here, Ulquiorra and the diameter of the pillar should be at nearly the same focal point. Not exactly the same point, since he's standing on the edge of the pillar rather than in the center, but it's the closest we get in any image I found while re-reading the scene.

We cannot use ANY calculations of Las Noches from inside, because again, we see that from the outside of Las Noches from a perspective not much further back from the heroes when they first see the structure, we can see opposite corners of the structure. Yet in the day-lit desert inside we can see nothing in any direction. This is physically impossible unless illusions or some form of spacial expansion are being used. And since we have no idea how much, we cannot assume anything about the structure from the inside. It might as well be a TARDIS simply because we don't know.

My practice when it comes to these things is generally to take the highest feats that a character has shown, unless they are clear and obvious outliers, and then interpret them as conservatively as possible within reason. Since anything higher than this becomes more questionable when it comes to a character's potential. In here I have been going out of my way to be excessively extreme with this philosophy in order to show how inconsistent high-ball scaling can be. Because even though I am certain that Hallibel is better than the estimation I am giving her, I know for certain that she can do everything that I am attributing to her, but the more you high-ball her the more and more unlikely it is that she actually measures up to that.

So going back to the bare minimum of what we know Harribel can do and the bare minimum of what we see Sanji can do, Harribel takes a majority against him with her Sonido being much faster than his speed but also mitigated by his Observation, her damage output being higher, but his speed being faster than her without Sonido and his having better durability showings. If you take more high-ball estimates of both characters, Harribel she wins much more consistently with FAR higher stats across the board (partially because despite it's cartoony nature, One Piece has much more direct and understandable feats that don't require so much guesswork, at least until you get to the weirdness of the top tiers like Whitebeard)

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TheIrishDoctor

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@silentnightz: I get what you're saying, and yes you can interpret certain things as you describe. But you cannot do so without making a lot of assumptions and I'd much rather not make assumptions.

Also, please stop taking every statement I make completely out of context. If I say "here's another way of interpreting this that is also valid" or "For all we know this is true", that doesn't mean that is what I think is the correct answer. It just means that I'm trying to say that the ultra-high ball interpretation isn't the only way of looking at things and that a lot of this is based on a lack of knowledge.

Assumption 1) Nel, who very clearly said, it was a 3 day walk, is somehow assuming how fast and for how long Ichigo and Uryuu can run and taking that into account as she figures out how long it will take to get to the door. That is completely unrealistic. Yes, Ichigo can walk on air (not in Hueco Mundo mind you, that is an ability that is only usable in the human world), and yes Ichigo can run at full sprint for days and days and days, but Nel has no reason to know these things. She's just met him. She's seen him do some cool things, but has no basis for knowing anything that he can do in that sense.

And she didn't say that it was a 3 day ride on her sand-worm. She didn't say that it was a 3 day run. She said it was a 3 day walk. And she has the mind of a child here, and has shown the naivete of a child. She is almost certainly thinking in terms of how long it takes herself to walk around Las Noches. And again, she's a child who doesn't have the ability to air walk, and isn't thinking in terms of being in a hurry since she didn't see a problem with it taking 3 days.

Again, it is entirely possible that she's thinking "Oh, this guy is super fast, if we go at his speed it'll take us 3 days!" or she could be thinking "Well hey, last time I was here it took me about 3 days to go that distance, so that's how long I'll say it'll take". We have no way of knowing, and so the statement is meaningless.

I will totally admit that I had forgotten that Hollows don't need to rest. So I'll give you that point. Although they sometimes do if they overexert themselves, and given Nel's injury that constantly leaks spiritual energy, it is possible that she might need to do so more often.

Assumption 2) That we can use any of the internal structure of Las Noches to approximate the size of the thing. You yourself stated that Bleach uses heavy use of spacial distortion in it's architecture. Szayelaporro shows this extremely well and the desert inside of Las Noches that has a sky clearly shows some sort of weirdness going on. When outside the structure from a distance the two opposite corners can be seen, but when inside the structure in the desert area, you can't see the walls from any direction, which means that Las Noches HAS to be bigger on the inside with spacial expansion of some sort.

So again, that is out. Also the statement that the outer wall is a Kilometer thick is entirely conjecture. Why do you assume that those areas they are going through are built into the outer wall of the structure? Why wouldn't they just be other rooms inside of Las Noches?

Assumption 3) That Ulquiorra's statement about GRC being disallowed within Las Noches because it could destroy it must mean that the worry is that 1 use of the technique could obliterate all of Las Noches. For all we know, it could be minor structural damage, just enough that it is deemed necessary to restrict its use do to the resources that it would take to repair it. This is of course a massive low-ball estimate, but that doesn't mean that GRC can one-shot bust Las Noches is the correct answer. There's a lot inbetween those two extremes that it could mean.

Assumption 4) That because Dangai Ichigo can super-casually destroy mountains, well he must obviously be a island/continent/moon/whatever buster. Yes, he did this easily, and yes this implies that his best must be a lot better, but we never saw him exceed these levels except with the Final Getsuga, so all that is speculation. The best attack he had was Mugetsu. Mugetsu destroyed a mountain range. Dangai Ichigo is a mountain range buster. Anything past that is speculation.

Now as for the size of Las Noches,

This is Las Noches

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See those six little pillars on top. The ones that sort of look like little antennae? That is where Ichigo fought Ulquiorra when he used his Resureccion and later Segunda Etapa.

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And here is Ulquiorra standing on top of one of those pillars. They're huge, certainly, but easily small enough that a regular ass person could walk around them in a couple minutes. And when you scale that to the pillars seen in the earlier image, Las Noches becomes massive, but definitely not country sized. City sized seems pretty reasonable.

No Caption Provided

This image proves that the pillars must be the same, as Ulquiorra's attack that destroys part of the roof originates from that point and there are no other pillars that can be seen in the Ulquiorra fight.

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This one is good for showing how incredibly inconsistent Las Noches is actually, as the pillars change in their proportions compared to the rest of the structure a lot, the hole Ulquiorra creates seems much smaller now, and in neither this nor the last picture do we see any of the extra cylinder-like structures that surrounded the main building in the first picture.

But no matter how you slice it, that last blast, Ulquiorra's most powerful in his form that Aizen apparently had never seen and therefore might very well be more powerful than any of the other Espada (heck, it might be stronger than Aizen for all we know, and Vasto Lorde Ichigo might be stronger than Dangai Ichigo, but this is a very extreme stretch), is not even the size of Las Noches, and Las Noches is clearly from these images, only about large city sized. And busting a city is WAY under busting a mountain.

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TheIrishDoctor

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@exauce: It doesn't. People get to that idea by assuming that Las Noches is the size of a small country and then comparing the size of the Lanza explosion to Las Noches. They do this by scaling Las Noches' size via a single random off-the-cuff statement made by Nel when they're breaking into the place that they don't need to break through the wall because the gate is only 3 days away. And people then look at how much ground a person could cover in 3 days or worse how much ground Ichigo could cover in 3 days, assume there is one gate on each of the 4 sides and badda bing, badda boom, you have a single building about the size of France or Belgium...

Even though even this is contradicted by every other thing we know about the structure, the most basic of common sense, and our own eyes as we see how big Ulquiorra is compared to the towers on top of Las Noches when he and Ichigo fight. Every calculation I have ever seen for using Nel's comment to calculate Las Noches assumes a grown man taking the most direct path possible, never stopping to take breaks or rest or anything, on a stable and easy to traverse terrain...

...when in actuality, Nel is in the body of a toddler which would walk much slower than an adult and need more frequent rests, didn't have any idea how strong or fast Ichigo might be (and even if she did she has the mind of a toddler which means she's likely to be thinking about it in terms of her own experiences), said it was a 3 day "walk" not run, said it in such a way that shows she had no reason to think they were in a hurry, Hueco Mundo is an entire world of sand dunes which slow down a person's average walking speed greatly, and her experiences are entirely with Dondochakka and Pesche (both of whom are known to goof off and delay all the time).

Given all of this there is no way at all to reasonably guess how big Las Noches is from Nel's statement. It could be anywhere from the size of a country like speculated to the size of a large city like Chicago, or even less.

Now using actually reasonable means of calculating the size of Las Noches, such as estimating the size of the towers on the roof during Ichigo's fight with Ulquiorra and then comparing the towers to the size of the entire structure, we can assume that Lanza is a medium-large mountain busting attack.

Which is much more in line with what we later see with Aizen vs. Dangai Ichigo, who are shown to be casual mountain busters with their basic attacks. This fits the power creep and progression of the series much better if one of Ulquiorra's most potent attacks was mountain level and then Aizen and Dangai Ichigo's casual attacks were mountain level. If Ulquorra's attacks were country level, then we got scaled WAY back for what was supposed to be the final fight of the series which makes absolutely no sense.

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TheIrishDoctor

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Don't scale Grimmjow to Harribel. It was stated that the Arrancar are significantly stronger in Hueco Mundo than they are anywhere else, and since we've only seen Harribel fighting in the Fake Karakura town, that's the only version of her that we can realistically analyze. So she very well might be weaker than the version of Grimmjow that Ichigo fought.

More importantly, warping space means a grand total of not much. We have no way of quantifying that, especially since Bleach characters are spiritual beings fighting in a spiritual world so who knows what sort of physics that would require? Especially since Hollows create holes in spacetime as a natural part of their powerset. And even if it IS a totally legit thing and Kubo was trying to show how powerful Grimmjow is, it's clearly an outlier written by an author who doesn't get the math required to do that, considering that Hogyoku Aizen and Dangai Ichigo were mountain busters and that was meant to be a big and scary thing to show how much more powerful they were than anything else we had seen at the time. If we are meant to take Grimmjow's space distortion realistically, then Grimmjow should one-shot Hogyoku Aizen and Dangai Ichigo both...but we know he can't.

Sanji can produce a kick that has a fire that can spontaneously ignite Wadatsumi, despite having no known fire generation or pyrokinetic powers. He ignites his legs through sheer friction and, according to Oda, "Passion"...because that's a thing in One Piece that actually makes sense sort of. Either way, fire that isn't big enough to engulf Wadatsumi but hot enough to ignite him despite only being struck by a piece of fire the size of Sanji himself. That insane.

Wadatsumi is 80 meters tall normally by the way, and can grow to about twice that much, which he was doing when Sanji kicked him.

Now all that isn't so say that Sanji should sweep this or even win this. I'll personally take Harribel for a slight majority because of the power she has shown against Hitsugaya. But she's not that much stronger than him. Zoro, for example, should take a solid majority against her.

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TheIrishDoctor

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Nnoitra is sub-relativistic? Please, PLEASE show me the feats that prove this. Because I am calling either 1) a single massive outlier feat that is hugely contradicted by everything else in the series, or 2) a misinterpretation.

I believe this because after training with Squad 0 and gaining his true Zanpakuto, Ichigo's speed has been very convincingly calculated at Mach ~ 525ish. But yeah, Nnoitra is sub-relativistic.

And as for the calculations for the size of Las Noches, let's actually consider what we're seeing here. At no point does anyone say that Ichigo, moving non-stop at any sort of decent speed, would take 3 days to reach Las Noches' gate. That is a massive misinterpretation of what was said there. Nel, who is at this point a child, who is thinking in terms of a child, says that the gate is a 3 day trip. We're not even talking about her being in a hurry since the context clearly shows that she doesn't consider 3 days to be a big deal. So a person with the body of a 4 year old (roughly) walking through sand dunes (which also seriously slows down a person's average walking speed), and who isn't in a hurry, and who is known to travel with a couple of idiots who goof off and get distracted easily, say that it will take 3 days to get to the gate.

That could imply anything from the size of Belgium to the size of Chicago and CANNOT be used with any sort of accuracy. If there is a better way of calculating the size of Las Noches, that shows it to be country sized, then by all means I'd be interested to know. Because the best I've got is this.

Ulquiorra Standing Atop Las Noches

See that pillar that Ulquiorra is standing on top of? Yeah, that's the tallest of the little towers that are standing in the middle of Las Noches. And you can clearly see Ulquiorra standing on top of them despite looking up from the perspective of what seems to be someone standing on the roof. Now, OBVIOUSLY that is not in any way shape or form indicative of the actual size of Las Noches because that would make the entire pillar is not much bigger a 10 story building. And that would be a ridiculous low-ball size calculation based on only one panel that kinda sorta looks like it might be implying one thing. But the random interpretation of Nel's statement meaning that she was expecting Ichigo to march at an accelerated speed for three days without rest and that she, with her child's mind, was able to calculate how long this would take him is equally as absurd.

So here's a slightly more consistent and better look at those pillars atop Las Noches via the animated fight scene.

Loading Video...

At about 6:55 we see Ichigo getting blasted into those same towers, the entire tower is in view, and Ichigo is visible being smashed into them. Again these are the little antennae that you can see sticking out the top of Las Noches from afar.

Which means that Las Noches being about the size of Chicago seems a lot more reasonable to me than it being the size of Belgium.

Now all that being said, the Gran Rey Cero still hugely outstrips Zoro's feat of slashing Pica since Pica is probably about the size of that entire pillar on top of Las Noches. But at the same time, that feat was done without Zoro's most recent power up, without Haki, and all in all without much effort put into it. Zoro has one better feat, of bisecting Pica while Pica was also covered in Armament Haki, but we don't know how strong Pica's armament is. We do know that even low level Armament greatly increases a person's durability. Zoro has no real feats which put him above that in any way since he hasn't actually been pushed since the time-skip. So really there isn't any way of knowing what his power output actually might be,.

Based on feats that we can actually see, as well as scaling since Nnoitra's Cero should be above that of Grimmjow, Nnoitra has the clear damage output edge. He also definitely has the durability edge, although by how much is impossible to say since Armament Haki from characters weaker than Zoro (like Virgo) has been able to defend against some very high-level attacks...but said feats are strange and esoteric and might not really be legit, and even if they were legit still don't outclass Nnoitra's durability.

But Zoro definitely has the speed advantage, and Observation Haki would help him to not get hit (although Zoro isn't that great with it compared to people like Luffy and Sanji).

Between all of that, I think this is actually a very close fight, but between his better damage output via Ceros, and better durability as shown when he no-sold Kenpachi's initial attack (meaning that Zoro would need his best attacks to have a chance at cutting Nnoitra), I'm giving the Aarancar the edge here until we see better feats in Wano.

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TheIrishDoctor

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If scaled to our current understanding of the universe, Myth Thor is better than Marvel Thor...by like...a lot.

Another thing to remember is that Myth Thor doesn't need to use the Bifrost Bridge. His rage in Asgard effects Midgard, and he can just come on his own. Which means he can travel from a higher divine dimension to a mortal world on his own power and the power of his fury can reach across Yggdrasil into the mortal world. And I personally take the difference between divine dimensions and mortal ones to be a bigger divide than that between regular dimensions, but that's just me. And he's actually a god-god. Not an alien sort-of god, and even other gods can't do these things.

Myth Thor legit solos the verse.

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TheIrishDoctor

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#7  Edited By TheIrishDoctor

I admit I'm not the most familiar with WWH, but from what I have seen I really don't see him taking either Superman or Black Adam (who is...basically Superman but ruthless and magic). Either member of the team should solo, albeit not easily unless they are bloodlusted.

So many people are saying Hulk should win. Can I get some WWH feats to back this up?

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TheIrishDoctor

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This Batman doesn't really have any skill feats and was both already physically weakened and in a bad state of mind. Cap has held his own against actual Iron-Man (because this Bat is clearly meant to be Iron-Man like) and with Bucky's help beat him. He's tactically superior to this Batman, has better feats all around, and would easily be able to realize that he needed to cut Bane's Venom tubes, after which he'd destroy him.

Cap wins, low to mid diff.

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TheIrishDoctor

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Blackbeard is set up to be one of two possible series-end baddies in One Piece. He IS stronger than Fujitora as the story makes no sense otherwise.

That being said, as of right now, he hasn't had a feat since pre-timeskip where he was loosing to Magellan and we've never seen him fight with the Gura-Gura no Mi.

So by the reasonable rules of vs matches, Fujitora technically wins. But everyone knows he will lose.

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The main problem I see here is power output. Godzilla has tanked hits that are just absolutely absurd and I don't think that many people here actually have the power output to do a lot. That being said, the team should still take this after a bit of a grind.

Current Strawhats: No one has the power output to hurt a Godzilla who survived reentry, tanked a nuke and it made him stronger and didn't hurt him at all, and survived the Permian extinction meteor devastating all life on the planet.

Whitebeard: By statements Whitebeard's fruit has the ability to destroy the world. By feats he has not shown anything like this. If the fruit's power is expanded upon he could solo, but as of now he doesn't have the power output.

Blackbeard: Same as Whitebeard. "Black Hole" is an attack name and it has been shown to, at best, wreck some buildings. Gura Gura fruit is better, but not good enough.

4 Admirals plus Yonko: We don't know how cold Aokiji can get or how much defense Godzilla would have against attacks that can super-freeze. He could theoretically freeze over Godzilla's entire body as we've seen him freeze a substantial section of the entire ocean before, which might not kill him but would help others do the same. Ghidora's alien physiology that allows him to survive through space might make him less susceptible to this. None of the other Admirals nor Yonko have shown the power output do do anything. I'm willing to bet that when we get to him, Shanks might change this, but as of now Shanks is featless. Kaido MAY be able to survive unharmed by the Kaiju, but hes not hurting them.

Current Sasuke and Sakura: Havn't seen Boruto, don't know what sort of power these guys get after they defeated Kaguya. They may be able to solo, but as of the Kaguya fight they're both fodder.

Boros: Claims to have a life-wiping ability. Got one-shot by something that wasn't even close to life-wiping so it's hard to take that seriously. Of what we've seen he doesn't have the power output. If he DOES have a life-wiping ability, then with his speed and regen he'd eventually grind the Kaiju down but even then it'd take him a while.

Natsu: I read Fairy Tail but...I don't really remember what the limits of Natsu's power were, but from what I remember of the high tiers of his verse, I don't think they really have the damage output...but they might have the hax, and didn't Natsu's fire have some sort of hax quality by the end? I don't really remember.

Law: His room could likely incapacitate the monsters since they wouldn't really have any defense against it, but only if the room was big enough to actually encompass them. He cut a mountain in half in the manga, but the mountain in question seemed pretty small to me, so I'm not 100% sure.

Seven Warlords: Which ones? There's actually been nine. Mihawk doesn't have the feats although has been implied to be the strongest of the bunch. Doffy doesn't have the power output and much weaker beings than these have broken out of his puppet strings. Moria's hax could solo based on how weirdly they work. Kuma doesn't have the power output and has no feats to BFR something so huge. Crocodile MIGHT have the hax to solo if he could drain the moisture out of them, but that depends entirely on how much he could drain from them and if that would even work against Ghidora's alien physiology, and his sand form likely gets one-shot by atomic breath. Weevil and Buggy are featless and fodder respectively. Hancock's powers are only supposed to work against things that can feel physical attraction to her but that has gone out the window when she did it to inanimate objects...buuuuut she hasn't shown the feats to be able to do that to more than a few inches of flesh at a time so she's useless and gets one-shot.

Hashirama and Madara: Hashi is fodderized. Madara's meteor might be able to do the job, but I'd have to see how it scales to the things Godzilla has survived.

Acnologia: Again I don't remember what sort of Hax he has, but I'm pretty sure I remember him having some sort of hax. On physicals alone he looses but is the closest guy here to putting up a good fight physically.