The_Imperator

After a long and arduous journey, my account has returned, ready to post more on the interwebs.

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#1  Edited By The_Imperator

@mazeraiii: They are all the same Darkseid, that was made clear by both Didio (said there's only ever been one actual Darkseid and each New God in the multiverse), by Morrison in Multiversity, and by Johns in Darkseid War.

In Final Crisis, it was Darkseid himself, no machine, that was keeping the Egyptian Gods from being able to fully give Adam their power.

New 52 Darkseid can one shot Superman, we see that in his first appearance in new 52. And he defeated all the main heroes on Earth 2, and would have killed them had Brainiac not saved them at the last second. He's consistently been a team busting level opponent with his new 52 shard. The JL only won because Cyborg closed a Boom Tube on him, Earth 2 lost, etc. And then there was his showing in Constantine where he showed a bit more of his true form, reaching through dimensions to track people and being massive, an appreciable fraction of the size of the Earth.

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@mazeraiii: Yeah, it says that, but we have on panel feats of him solo'ing other Supermen, and he actually was beating nu52 Supes in their only encounter. He hasn't found a single opponent and been unable to gain the upper hand, save the Anti-Monitor, at least so far in New 52. Also, the thing saying their powers are the same is completely wrong. Sure, several of Darkseid's avatars were Superman's level, but a dying and weakened Darkseid was able to collapse the Multiverse and hold off all other pantheons at the same time, that's a fair bit more than Superman could do. Darkseid's only Superman level when he doesn't actually care (or is actually Desaad in disguise).

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@king_of_all: It's in one of the previous 2 issues of World's End, She literally pokes his eye out. She also somehow tanks the Omega Beams (which is weird and strange and doesn't make any sense either). However, Darkseid heals between then end of this issue and the opening panels of the next issue, where he and Alan fight. Bad continuity or actual feats? It probably was originally bad continuity, but they left it in so I guess it is a healing feat.

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@king_of_all: The hit was unquantifiable. Because right before that, Power Girl was able to temporarily hurt him. Unless we are assuming new 52 Power Girl is multiversal (she clearly isn't), then Darkseid's durability isn't truly multiversal.

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@beatboks1: The clip doesn't actually show how they erase him, I'm just going to point out. They don't have buttons or a key pad in front of them. It would have been tech, yes, I was bad in how I phrased it, my bad. I simply meant they activated it with their minds, not needing prep to do it, just activating it.

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@beatboks1:

>Weapons that are only good if they get enough prep to actually bring them into play. Lying around doesn't mean thay can employ them or that they would still exist against a reality warper. if they had even a few minutes of prep this would be a different story. The OP didn't give them that.

Not arguing for this, I was arguing that Time Lords can and have fought reality warpers than can casually mess with the entire universe, but are unable to mess with Gallifrey itself.

You mean the same Darleks who defeated the entire Time Lord Race?? The Same darleks who prior to the 50th anniversary were believed to have destroyed them but instead was shown to have been saved by teh interventions of the Dr??

Yes, here’s a quote:

The universe convulsed. For a moment, time itself held it's breath. Then it let it out again in a chaotic amalgam of past, present and future. Might-have-been and could-have-done crashed into what-if and never-was.

Caught at the edge of the temporal wave, the TARDIS rode out the storm. The first the Doctor knew of it was when the ground dropped from under his feet and his head cracked into the console.

...

High above his head, the roof of the TARDIS had faded into a view of the contorted star systems as they folded in on themselves. Stars went nova; black holes collapsed; planets collided and spun away into oblivion. Several whole galaxies vanished from history - never having existed. The view and the readings from the instruments that were still working told him everything he needed to know.

"The Time Destructor," he murmured, the words lost in the alarms. So the Daleks had finally got it working, finally deployed it in this endless war against his own people, the Time Lords. Even here at the edge of the blast sphere it was impossible to predict the effects of such a device.

...

The Nestene Homeworld was gone, wiped away in the blink of an eye. Temporal shockwaves rippled out through systems from Grantaginus to Mellandrova, from the Farflung Rift to the Wolf's Heart Nebula.

Finally, he saw it. A tiny planet on the edge of the nearest system. It was impossible to know if it had been affected, but it seemed stable. For the moment. It would only take the merest hint of the ripple to turn the planet's sun into a supernova or a black hole, or an empty space where no star had yet formed.

...

"The Daleks have deployed a Time Destuctor." He regarded their blank expressions. "Great Time War, no?"

The Scientific Secrets of Doctor Who "Natural Regression"

The Time War was stated by the show runner, back in 08 I believe, to have literally caused the universe to convulse due to the rupturing Time Vortex. Considering Time Lords have universe busting weapons in their arsenal, and the Daleks have the Time Lord arsenal schematics and plans due to the Doctor, the likelihood of universes being destroyed during the course of the war is quite high. Also, another factor is that the end of the Time War saw the Daleks building weapons to rewrite the infinite multiverse casually as side projects, while seeking to weaponize the Doctor's "plot shields," if you will (Engines of War).

>The underlined/bolded is quite simply a flagrant lie. The first TV appearance of the time lords was in 1970 or so. The final appearance of the 2nd Dr. The Doctor went to them for help. His companions had their minds erased and were sent back to the point in time where they had met the Dr (first entered the Tardis) with no knowledge of it. The Dr was tried for his crimes and exiled to Earth and his Tardis was limited.

Nope, that is not a lie. If you’ve watched War Games, they time loop a planet, erase someone from time, and create shields all without touching any buttons, merely waving their hands to do it.

(The Doctor, Jamie and Zoe run over to the Time Lords.)

WAR LORD: Kill them!

(But a forcefield stops the guards.)

TIME LORD 3: A force field has been placed around you, and around your planet, so that your warlike people will remain prisoners forever. You have been found guilty of all charges, and you and your murderous associates will be dematerialised. It will be as though you had never existed.

WAR LORD: No, no, no, no!

(The War Lord and the guards vanish.)

It happens near the end. The Time Lord never pushes any buttons, things just happen as he narrates. I was just attributing it to being psychically linked or something, which is well within Time Lord ability, and given their brain runs on tachyons (Timewyrm novels) and they can see the future (PArting of the Ways, Water of Mars, Timewyrm novels), they could just activate as soon as they need to.

>Then of course the "tale of the 3 doctors" in which the Time Lord Race were unable to handle a black hole which was draining their power supply and threatened the utter destruction so they allowed one of their cardinal rules to be broken and for the Dr to contact previous versions of himself to aid saving them.

You mean the story where it was stated that all of space time was being drained and was being threatened, by the person, I might add, that knew how Time Lord tech worked inside and out? The black hole that was somehow draining all energy in the universe was not some small time thing.

PRESIDENT: Without it, we shall be helpless. Unless the energy loss is stopped the whole fabric of space time will be destroyed. We are being consumed and we can find no way to fight back.

Yeah, this wasn't a small issue, it was a big issue. And considering the EoH at that point was apparently matching the energy of the entire universe, enough to keep it from falling apart, and also enforcing the laws of physics on the universe, and also powering most Time Lord stuff, that's still a fairly impressive feat.

Finally (and one of my favorites) was when the 4th Dr made himself the president of the Time Lords. he then effected some prep to facilitate a victory over a telepathic race that would in the story Conquer the Time Lords. It was with his help in the plot but this was because they would have won anyway and had he not helped a lot of Time Lords would have suffered. Quite frankly the actual "feats" of the time Lords as a race are quite underwhelming on the whole. I've been mentioning the Dr feats because on the vast majority of appearances of the Time Lords it has required the Dr to save the race from their own inabilities.

Did you read the feat thread I posted a link to? The Time Lords really aren't as pathetic as you make them out to be. Literally that story happened because the Doctor didn't want a Time Lord to betray the rest, so he decided to betray them all to find out the culprit. And added to that, in the novel Gallifrey Chronicles, we learn that the Time Lord leaders (who other than Borusa don't really show up in the story) didn't care about the invasion or even try to help because they knew they would survive it and several others. They literally had proof that nothing that happened to them up to the Time War would kill them off, so they didn't care. Remember in War Games, where the Time Lord (I posted the quote above), simply gestures and freezes planet in time and then erases a guy, those were the Time Lord Celestial Intervention Agency. And they were mentioned in the episode you are referencing, but they never actually showed up in the episode, specifically because they weren't worried. Any Time Lord that dies could be brought back from the Matrix if they needed them.

I'm SORRY, this is just flagrantly against the actual showings of the Time Lord race against such entities. They fared poorly and have actually stated on screen to be inferior to races like the Q. Races like the Oririans, the Dark and white Guardians, and the Eternals (that was the story I was referring too with the sailing ships in space) .

You will of course show proof that the Eternals could have just defeated them. Because we learn in the novel Quantum Archangel that it would take the entire host of the Chronovores (hundreds of thousands of universe busters) to get onto Gallifrey if the Time Lords didn't want them to. And Eternals are considered equal to Chronovores when unrestrained by the rules they signed themselves into to limit their interaction with reality. The Guardians are stated to be omniversal in Doctor Who, and Doctor Who's omniverse specifically is the same one as the Marvel and Transformers multiverse. The Guardians too are part of the pact to limit themselves when interacting with universes. Heck, RTD (the showrunner from 2005-2011) said that the Eternals actually ran from the Time War.

As to the Osirans, we don't know fully what they could do, although a recent comic showed that they had tech that could literally cut universes into pieces and graft said pieces together in a pattern the Osirans wanted. We don't know if they could have defeated the Time Lords, or (the route the Faction Paradox audio series went when it had the Time Lords fight the Osirans) the Osirans would have just caused a paperwork nightmare for the Time Lords to deal with.

For a nice rundown of things the Time Lords can do by pushing a button, while sitting on Gallifrey within protections that universe level reality warpers cannot get through:

  • Fire Artron cannons from outside reality, weapons that can instantly shred beings, that can eat universes and reality warp entire universes, to nothingness (Quantum Archangel)
  • Seal off acausal beings that are made of empty space (no energy or matter) in their own pocket dimensions. Said being can eat ideas, such as the color green, or round, or family, so said ideas don't apply to reality anymore (Taking of Planet 5)
  • Cut off dimensions from reality, sealing them away to keep them from interacting with the multiverse (Axis of Insanity)
  • Weaponize memetic lifeforms, creatures that are literally made of ideas. Creatures like this can alter percceptions and meaning of reality, meaning you could hold a spaghetti noodle, but only be able to interact with it as if it were a dead dog, even though the matter there is only a spaghetti noodle. These lifeforms can possess and mind control 11 dimensional reality manipulating creatures, so they are effective even against transcendental reality warpers.

The beauty of the Time Lords is most reality warpers in fiction, if they aren't multiverse level, can't actually outright hurt the Time Lords at the beginning of the fight, due to the Transduction Barrier and Quantum Forcefield around Gallifrey (or possibly 9+ Gallifreys at one point when they temporally cloned their planet). That's the point I was trying to make. The Time Lords have the defenses to survive any attack outright from less than multiversal level opponents that don't know how to turn off Time Lord technology or use workarounds (like the Daleks).

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@citizensentry: The side for Q is in the school of thought that statements on attributed power can be used to supplement feats, while you and others arguing for Time Lords (and me, but I don't want to start arguing again :P ) are of the school of thought that purely feats that happened are allowed to be brought in. You are both coming at the debate from different sides, because you view how the debate works completely differently. Thus neither side is going to ever actually become convinced that their side loses.

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Holy crap, both sides, just give it a rest. You're both arguing from different debate paradigms, neither are going to convince the other save by changing their paradigm, which isn't likely. That's all there is too it.

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@citizensentry: OK? You were just talking about nova'ing suns, that won't kill the Q. That's all I was pointing out.

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@citizensentry: Because that's almost certainly not going to kill the Q. Their weapons were nova'ing suns as a side effect of the force ripping through dimensions. That's going to be a lot of energy, a lot more than in a supernova