The_Imperator

After a long and arduous journey, my account has returned, ready to post more on the interwebs.

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The_Imperator

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Q fights are rather silly, because the Q have no feats for erasing groups of beings from existence that have protections against simply being erased. Plus the Time Lords have the tech to one shot universe eating entities if needed. We saw in The Five Doctors episode that if a Time Lord is removed from time or caused to cease being causally connected to the rest of their life, their future versions can still exist (also in the audio Death in the Family). On top of that, with the Celestis and Faction Paradox here, erasing them doesn't work, they do that to themselves so they can exist on as ideas that then reinsert themselves into reality. The Time Lords in universe just consider that messy and too gross and vulgar to actually do, since it would break tradition and all that. Salyavin had universe wide telepathy, that worked on computers and Time Lords and other things.

Also, with the Word Lords here (like Nobody No-One), they are alternate universe Time Lords that are made of language. The Q haven't shown feats for erasing the concept of Language, that I know of, so they can't really kill the Word Lords easily.

The Ferutu have literal magic, and their universe being erased and them being slowly eaten away by time didn't seem to phase them when they came back as temporary big bads in the Bernice Summerfield novels.

@nomar said:

As a Who fan I'll never get the argument for TLs beating Qs. It makes absolutely 0 sense rabid fanboying aside. The Q can do everything TLs can do and more, without needing the assistance of any tech. Timelords without tech can be killed by damn near anything. You have to scrape for outlier feats(the 1 out of 99) to make them more than they are. If you watch the series I have no idea how people can come to the conclusions they have in here. Literally every single conflict in doctor who is trivial for Qs. While TLs and the Doctor have to come up with grand schemes the Q just think it and it is so.

You don't need to mine it anywhere near that far. The Time Lords hardly appear, and usually when they do its a massive universe threatening problem. Like that time in the episode The Three Doctors, where Omega was devouring all the energy in the universe and the Time Lords were matching it to keep the universe around. Or End of Time when Rassilon was going to just destroy the multiverse because he didn't want to lose a war. There are several "low showings" but even in the show, those episodes explicitly have the competent Time Lord groups (like the CIA) not bothering to fix the problems, which is later said to be because Matrix predictions told them those problems wouldn't matter in the long run.

All that said, the issue with Q debates is we don't really know enough about them. It can be argued whether or not the subspace damage disconnected the female Q from the Continuum, which I lean to probably given other evidence in the show (if it was the subspace damage, why wouldn't one Q faction just remove Q powers from all the others on the other side?). That said, though, there isn't really much to go on for how to damage Q or disconnect them from the Continuum, and we don't know how they would deal with conceptual attacks or attacks that can destroy Q-like entities in Doctor Who.

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The_Imperator

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#3  Edited By The_Imperator

Assuming show Dark Willow, and not the temporary amp version from later in the comics, I think Ains can take this. From what I recall, his magic feats were often much more destructive than Willow's were.

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@gurban: Not really a fan of getting into debates about the Q.

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@bat_siri: For any of the old Doctor's, it's in character to fight if it comes to it. But more than likely they'd just figure out what was going on and track down Light fairly quickly.

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The_Imperator

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@db_king: I literally linked to that very video in the post of mine you are responding to :P

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@bat_siri: No, he just usually has to touch people to do psychic stuff, though he's done it without touching in the past, such as when fighting Omega for control of an entire dimension in The Three Doctors.

here's a Doctor feat post I'm working on

@bat_siri said:

@db_king:

The doctor isn't known for shooting people with guns but he's done it when the situation calls for it.

War Doctor and Ninth Maybe but Not Really

Three literally slaughtered a group of Ogrons with a gun in Day of the Daleks.

Here is the Doctor being very violent, the background songs have strong language, just a warning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNuHV-iLBRw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzmnPs64K74

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The_Imperator

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Wait, full power Illyria, so like back when she was full old one? She ends this fight by ending time.

Unless we mean post resurrection pre-Mutari Illyria, in which case I think the Heroes team has a chance. Sylar and Peter both can launch off Nukes, and heal to survive them. This is, of course, assuming they aren't instantly controlled by Jasmine, in which case the Heroes team loses.

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They have better actual feats than everyone on the list. The Glory has better implied feats. But implied feats don't exist, so they can't be used. So Micahel and Lucifer should clear.

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@masterofluck123: Time Lords are hugely inconsistent as well. In Second Doctor days, they seem greatly superior to the Doctor, who is a just a renegade, and he has to ask them for help, after which they wipe his ability to operate the Tardis and exile him to Earth (War Games).

In Fourth Doctor days, one disembodied Time Lord is shown to be a significant potential threat, in all likelihood mentally stronger than the Doctor (The Brain of Morbius). Later, however, they are shown to be decadent and largely ineffectual, helpless before the machinations of the intellectually superior Master and Doctor (Deadly Assassin). They subsequently fall so far that they actually manage to succumb to an invasion by the techonologically massively inferior Sontarans (Invasion of Time). They've recovered a bit of credibility by the time of the Five Doctors, in that although they still seem to need the Doctor/Master's help, they can do things such as grant a new regeneration cycle.

In the new series, their record is mixed. The Doctor and Master are portrayed again as superior to the bulk of Time Lords, and they actually are on the brink of losing against the Daleks. Still, they were participants in a war which is supposed to have terrified, for example, the Eternals (who are theoretically beyond their power) into fleeing the Universe.

So they are at least as inconsistent as the Beyonders. Personally? I think the Beyonders win.

That's actually addressed several times by authors, the reason that none of the competent factions show up in the show, ad why they don't really care, is that they are victims of their own success. They have proof that they, as a culture, will survive past a bunch of events, and thus don't really give a crap what happens because they know they will get through it.

They never succumbed to an invasion by the Sontarans. The Doctor, in order that no other Time Lord may decide to turn on their own race, gets chosen as President and then uses his presidential powers to let the Vardans and Sontarans onto Gallifrey. Of note, the Celestial Intervention Agency, mentioned in Deadly Assassin and again in the Two Doctors, the guys who were competent and got stuff done, never show up in the Fourth Doctor episodes, precisely because they don't care because they know that it'll all work out.

The Doctor is, in universe, basically a walking plot hole. The Daleks know it (novel Engines of War) and the Time Lords know it, that's why the Celestial Intervention Agency used him to do missions in his Second, Third, and Fourth personas.

The Time Lords were on the verge of winning the Time War. We know from Invasion of Time that the Quantum Force Field can't be turned off, only temporarily opened, and then only by the President. Rassilon had to have turned it off for his plan to end time, which is what allowed Daleks onto the planet in the first place. Rassilon was going to win by killing everything and making Time Lords all that was left, that's pretty much winning.

Sure, they are not always the most competent, but given they had a billion years of basically unchallenged rule of space and time, most people wouldn't be good at running a military operation.