The_Imperator

After a long and arduous journey, my account has returned, ready to post more on the interwebs.

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So that's a lot, and I don't really want to spaghetti post, because that would be unreadable by the end, so I'll try to respond in order.

First, the idea that a comprehensible system implies someone exists to comprehend it is silly. Humans are so far from understanding how biology works, but that alone doesn't imply a god exists just because the human body is theoretically comprehensible.

Second, the idea that a bubble in the Downstreamer system equals an entire multiverse in another setting is silly and completely lacking in textual backing. On top of that, that's a human trying to explain something to another human, not an actual source that knows everything with proof, or has directly observed it. On top of that, just because there "could" be something, as your quote about the Manifold says, does not automatically mean there must be something. There could be a spontaneous quantum tunneling effect where I fall through the floor right now, that doesn't mean it has to happen. Finally, most of the manifolds inside of manifolds stuff is speculation by human figures who have no way of proving any of that data. It's like when the narrator of an old comic calls Odin omnipotent, just because someone said it doesn't mean it's true, especially since in this case the human is just extrapolating a theory.

(next post)

First, most of that isn't really combat relevant, which is what this thread is about. Those time portals are cool and all, but not really that impressive by Who standards. Time Lords can rig up time travel from some positrons and a couple mirrors (Evil of the Daleks), or even just fancy math equations (novels: Interference 1 and 2) (since they designed the rules of physics and know all the back doors in Who).

Second, those mining feats are that impressive. Time Lords can literally clone black holes with quantum physics BS and stick as many as they want in their TARDISes, in addition to being able to fly into and out of event horizons as needed.

So far those quotes are all well and good, but none of those are combat relevant here. None of them.

(next post)

First, the Downstreamer's time travel was impressive because they knew everything and could send anti-particles back to influence events. That's not really relevant in this scenario, because the Xeelee and Time Lords both have easier ways to go back and influence events.

Second, the post about going to a Big Bang says it's another universe, no time travel needed. You added the part about going back in time the Big Bang:

"The set of all possible universes. Probably one related to ours.

"Related? How can universes be related? ... Never mind."

Cornelius turned blindly. "Damn it, I wish I could see. There's no reason why this universe should be exactly like ours, Malenfant. Most universes will be short-lived, probably on the scale of the Planck time."

"How long is that?"

"Ten to power minus forty-three of a second."

"Not even enough time to make a coffee, huh."

"I think this universe is only a few hours old. I think it just expanded out of its Big

Bang.

Third, in a fight with Time Lords sending info back to yourself doesn't give you extra processing speed. Time Lords experience time changes at a slower rate than everyone else. For example, in the novel The Big Bang Generation, when the Doctor is describing a universal collapse, he points out that from his point of view it will take several thousand years (meta-time is the term for that in Who by fans, or Gallifreyan mean time in the show and books and stuff) to collapse, but from everyone else's POV it will instantly collapse. Time Lords make themselves coterminous with species they interact with, and they can detect time changes in the act of occurring and prevent them from taking place in the time line they're in (Audios: Erasure, Axis of Insanity; episode: The Five Doctors, and basically the entire show when Time Lords are involved). Time changes to not instantly effect Time Lords, for example when the Doctor's past selves were literally deleted from his time line in the Five Doctors, he had chest pains and felt it happening, but his nature kept the changes from actually touching his future/present self. In the audio set Only the Good and the set Eighth Doctor: Time War vol 1 and the set Gallifrey: Time War vol 1, we see changes in time not affect Time Lords' present states, and see them interact with things to stop time changes in the act of occurring. Simple acausality doesn't allow one to get around the Time Lords in the prediction department. On top of that, one common tactic mentioned in The Book of the War was to create fake history and insert it into time, so that opponents couldn't rely on the tactic of sending themselves information about events, because those events very well may only appear to be happening, rather than actually happening.

Fourth, that time changing feat is nice, but shows that all the universes are still connected temporally. Which means Time Lords can literally start collapsing them all and locking them away, something they do a lot and is the entire plot of the audios Axis of Insanity and most of the Gallifrey audio series. So again, that's nice and all but doesn't actually do much for combat here.

(next post)

First, there are actually posts from different people saying TARDISes are infinite, so if we wanna go with one person saying something is infinite we can also go with the Doctor from Journey to the Center of the TARDIS saying his TARDIS is also infinite:

Good. Now forget it. 'Cause this ship is infinite.

Second, yeah, those portal things and senses are cool, but again, aren't really relevant to combat where your entire time line can be cut apart and stuck into a bottle on Rassilon's dresser (the meta-plot of Zagreus, Neverland, and Scherzo to Terror Firma). And none of those quotes still show any way to actually harm the Time Lords. the Downstreamers are cool, and have amazing tech (those portals and letting people survive Big Bangs is really cool) but said tech isn't always relevant to a fight where one side has all of the hax and can, at the push of a button, alter how physics works not as an extending wave front, but instantly everywhere and (if they want) every when.

(next post)

First, the quote doesn't say the Downstreamers isolated the universes, it says they selected a "bundle" and then "they sent this Moon spinning between those empty realities, from one to the other-", and then they are informed said empty realities had humans inserted into them. None of that says they sequestered said universes, merely that they found empty ones.

Second, as to the next part being speculation, Nemoto uses the same unsure words to suggest that as he does the other stuff. When talking about the human only universes and what became of the Downstreamers he and Manekato use the words "perhaps", "we think", and "conjecture", none of which are words that show authoritative knowledge. They're seemingly conjecturing about a lot of this.

Third, that last bit is really cool. I need to read the Phase Space collection.

All in all, yeah, the Downstreamers are insanely powerful tech wise, and insanely intelligent. They don't, however, have feats that are comprehensive enough to show how they would take down a civilization like the Time Lords. They don't have combat feats, because their series wasn't about that. It's like using the Q in debates like this, they're ill defined on purpose because they have a story role that doesn't involve combat with other things that can kill them. The Who side, thanks to being composite, has a ton of hax that literally can't be interacted with by the other side because such things don't even exist in their settings. But the Time Lords have virtually nothing that can be consistently argued to be able to beat the Downstreamers either. And with the additional composite stuff, the Q and Xeelee aren't going to roll over the Time Lords even with Downstreamer help.

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#2  Edited By The_Imperator

@thejeferd said:

@the_imperator Okay but the DS can tank multiversal collapse during FVC so Ultimate Sanction would be useless. With you're reasoning it is possible that they will stalemate. I should also mention that the DS is omniscient which would mean they can counter every move the TLs make. They are capable of constructing things out of the very fabric of spacetime, as if it were a physical substance. They are capable of mining gravity as if it were a resource. They can transmit thoughts and intentions through time, alter the genomes of species in the past, and are virtually immortal and indestructible. Btw, I was talking about the Old Ones rather than the pre-FVC DS because the OP has allowed these civilizations to fight at their peak so they wouldn't be neutrino computers but are abstract beings.

Like I said before, the Manifoldverse itself consists of an infinite hierarchy of infinite multiverses, encompassing all forms of mathematics. The Old Ones themselves exist at the top of this endless hierarchy, far beyond the applications of normal space and time, and maybe one with an "Ultimate Manifold", that encompasses all other manifolds in the tapestry of existence. Superior to all physical laws as they can be described, they have a near complete understanding of existence itself, allowing them to modify a few rules governing how the entirety of the verse works, such as likely changing the type of the multiverse, which enables them to create "infinite possibilities for life and mind".

So yes, the TLs can stop FVCs but because we are using the Old Ones and they are at the top of the hierarchy and they can change the laws of physics and how the multiverse works with a thought so the Old Ones stomp.

The Downstreamers were omniscient because they could observe everything. However, once you introduce time travel casually into the mix, that method of omniscience becomes much worse. Especially since Time Lords can literally separate chunks or space/time from the rest of existence and store it in things, or even cut out entire space/time continuums and stick them in universal prisons (The latter is a long running plot that started in the audio Axis of Insanity, continued through the long running Gallifrey audio series, and has popped up in recent 10th Doctor comics). Once time lines can be selectively pruned or added into existence, the Downstreamers method of omniscience becomes much harder to utilize. That's on top of the fact that Gallifrey itself (and insides of TARDISes) are separate space/time continuums, and so information from inside them won't necessarily drift to a place the Downstreamers can observe it, meaning they can't be omniscient in regards to the Time Lords.

All those things the DSs can do, Time Lords can too. It's really not that impressive at the level of this battle. Time Lords can also transmits telepathy through space/time (episode Shada, audio Dominion). Time Lords can literally push buttons to alter entire chunks of space/time (or even the whole thing) to be however they want thanks to the Matrix and Eye of Harmony.

Do the Old Ones actually have feats? Which book do they actually show up in?

Do the Old Ones have feats for changing universal constants when competing with other groups that can change and enforce universal constants?

EDIT: Ha, just actually read OP. Omega and Nobody No-One are here? Omega's universe/prison/black hole was literally breaking the entire multiverse the last time he opened it. Nobody No-One basically is a memetic life form that is a "living" idea, and can do anything if someone includes the phrase "nobody can X" or "No one can X"; limiting him by saying things like "Nobody can't live" or such isn't something that works, his powers are voluntary. Heck, Faction Paradox rigs up time line viruses all the time, that rewrite time lines from beginning to end, along said time lines. Their tech works on multi-dimensional life forms too. Oh, and given the Enemy is here, the Enemy is basically anything at any time, because it's simply the process of something being able to fight the Time Lords, so whatever it is at any given moment can change.

One incarnation of the Enemy are living ideas that turn anyone that knows about them into more of themselves, no physical interaction required. Another are magical fairies from a magical universe that can basically ignore physics at will. And another are time traveling bacteria that coalesce and rewrite existence around them so whatever is there is now just part of the concept of "Time Lord enemies."

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The_Imperator

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Why are you guys wanking the Time Lords? Sure they have time hax but that is nothing compared to the concept and physics manipulation and reality warping hax that the Downstreamers posses. An example of their powerful reality warping hax is the conversion of their original finite multiverse into a type IV Tegmark multiverse. Essentially a type IV Tegmark multiverse includes everything every possible universe. Furthermore, the Time Lords' time hax does nothing to the Downstreamers because they have acausality, meaning they are not bounded by the effects of causality. Moreover, the Downstreamers have better regen hax than the Time Lords. Additionally, the Downstreamers are also omniscient which, along with the fact they have acausality, negates whatever time hax the Time Lords have up their sleeves. Oh, have I also forgot to mention that the Downstreamers too have time travel? By the way, the Downstreamers are also not just non-corporeal beings but abstracts unbounded by every physical means possible.

If we are considering the use of The Old Ones then they solo stomp the time lords because their capabilities which include the effortless manipulation of the fabric of existence, are nearly boundless, and they are capable of creating infinitely-layered multiverses that contain an equally infinite number of multiverses within them. The Manifoldverse itself consists of an infinite hierarchy of infinite multiverses, encompassing all forms of mathematics. The Old Ones themselves exist at the top of this endless hierarchy, far beyond the applications of normal space and time, and maybe one with an "Ultimate Manifold", that encompasses all other manifolds in the tapestry of existence. Superior to all physical laws as they can be described, they have a near complete understanding of existence itself, allowing them to modify a few rules governing how the entirety of the verse works, such as likely changing the type of the multiverse, which enables them to create "infinite possibilities for life and mind".

In a nutshell, all other races in the alliance will lose but the Downstreamers (especially The Old Ones) are able to effortlessly stomp the Time Lords because of the sheer and stupendous amount of reality hax the Downstreamers have.

I must point out that acausality doesn't protect one from the weapons Time Lords use to erase things from time. Their tools that do such things interact with time lines as if time lines were contiguous objects, and scrub them from beginning to end. It doesn't change time, it physically removes you at every point of your existence.

How exactly do Downstreamers project force, though? I may not be remembering the 3rd Manifold book, but the original has them as Neutrino Computers that had limited energy to run on. They also caused a FVC to make the multiverse infinite, but the Time Lords can literally turn off FVCs with the tech they have available to them, so that's not really a way to do anything. They interacted with the past using anti-particles, but that's not really useful in this scenario without someone to influence in the past with said anti-particles. And their time portals only went forwards, not backwards AFAIK. Am I remembering the 3rd book wrong, I thought we never actually met them and just assumed they'd turned themselves into apes?

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Omega from Doctor Who. None of Thanos' movie feats are enough to actually stop Omega, and Omega should be able to mentally wreck Thanos or just wear him down if Thanos can even get into Omega's universe.

He could fire FTL beams of Anti-matter from his universe to anywhere in the normal Doctor Who universe, was able to drain enough energy from the entire universe at once that the fabric of space/time was breaking down, and literally is will alone, held together by sheer determination.

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@citizensurfer: I mean, Cybermen in the show are also one of the more impressive things we've seen on screen. That's mostly because Who is about time travel, so different eras of Cybermen can be shown. The ones hurt by gold show up in comics and audios too, but so do ones that aren't. It's just about what era they're from.

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@blackknighting said:

Daleks, reality bomb away.

I heard a lot of op stuff about the precursors in one of the halo forums, but it sound it like wank to me. Are they really connected to the universe?

why the daleks even have a reality bomb.

They don't like life. So they decided to build a machine that started a self-perpetuating process that would wipe out all bonds between matter all across the multiverse. The effects of the bomb actually started to be felt before the firing, thanks to it being housed outside of space/time. So although it was never actually fired, we know what it did.

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Okay, I start this without having picked a side myself. There are a lot of interesting points people have made, and this seems more evenly matched than I think a lot of people realize.

  • H2H - Rick is violent regularly, and he seems quite adept at it. But as someone pointed out, The Doctor took on Robin Hood in a dual handily - with a spoon. Point: Doctor.
  • Mobility: They can both travel through space on a whim. The Doctor can similarly move through time, but Rick can move through an infinite number of dimensions. The Time Lords used to be able to do that too, but they can't anymore. The few times the last few Doctors have gone to another dimension, it seemed incredibly difficult, haphazard, and the TARDIS needed to recharge, or if it stayed too long it would die. Not to mention the portal gun is just point and shoot, whereas the TARDIS takes a minute to get anywhere, even just through space. By the time the Doctor follows Rick to just the next galaxy over, Rick could have made a dozen additional jumps through several universes. Point: Rick
  • Time vs. Multiverse travel: A few commenters have pointed out that The Doctor could just find Rick as a helpless baby and alter his life from there. I'd say this is questionable, as the Doctor repeatedly talks about how you can't alter the past once you're part of that timeline's future. He would only contemplate this if he had never actually met Rick before. Furthermore, the Doctor would have to find baby Rick, and the series starts in what becomes the Cronenberg Universe (Universe C-137), but continues in another universe. And we can't even be sure if the Rick we know even came from the universe C-137 in the first place. Plus, Rick could hop into a universe with a shittier Doctor and steal his TARDIS. Point: Rick
  • Technology 1: A lot of people keep saying that the TARDIS is the most powerful thing ever. It's powered by a collapsing black hole caught by Time Lords and frozen in a moment in time. Rick's ship that he basically build in his garage is powered by a universe Rick created (including life sufficiently intelligent and sentient that it created another universe inside itself) in a time distortion field Rick created. I think it's fair to say Rick could have put a black hole in the universe he created. Point: Rick
  • Technology 2: Sonic Screwdriver (I was sure this would go to the Doctor, but...). this is kind of an annoying, poorly defined plot device. Seems to do everything and anything, when convenient, but it has 1 weakness: wood. The sonic could possibly disable any of Rick's gadgets. While I'm sure Rick would makes some interesting, lethal wooden implements, I'm sure the Doctor could too. But the Sonic has a second weakness: "Deadlock seals," that seemingly crop up randomly, regardless of when the Doctor is and what species he's dealing with. Even humans in the future have shown themselves to have deadlock capabilities. And if Humans can do it, Rick can do it. Point: Rick
  • Ingenuity: The Doctor built a crappy Tardis when he got stranded in a bubble universe. Rick made a universe. With intelligent, sentient life. So, the Doctor occasionally plays at being God, but Rick made himself a God. Also, I don't think we've ever even seen Rick sober. Everything he's done, he's been shit-faced and occasionally just passed out. Point: Rick
  • The Doctor gets an additional point for creating infinite space in his Tardis though.

Yeah, I think this is pretty solidly in the bag for Rick.

On your technology point, you're missing out on the fact a TARDIS is literally made out of mathematical modeling, and said modeling can be used to build universes bigger in scope than the ones Rick made. And a TARDIS can do quite a bit more than a portal gun.

On your second tech point, OP says standard gear, and Rick doesn't carry around wooden gear or deadlock sealed gear with him normally. Everything on him can be shut down by the sonic. And a deadlock wouldn't factor at all into how a gun works, so that's pretty irrelevant to Rick trying to fight the Doctor.

The Doctor's built universes before too. Protect and Survive is about to of his companions accidentally getting stuck in a time looped pocket universe the Doctor built to contain eldritch abominations by forcing them to live as humans over and over again. And that feat, for Rick or the Doc, is pretty irrelevant to the fight the OP has set up.

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I agree with @metaljimmor, although Ob is fast enough that he should be able to close the distance to Kiora fairly quick.

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#10  Edited By The_Imperator

@khael said:

I wish I know who Doctor Who is.

the Doctor is the main protagonist of the show Doctor Who, a long running British show about an alien, from a race called the Time Lords, traveling through time and space with humans (or sometimes nonhumans or even robots) and getting into escapades with would-be-conquerors, eldritch abominations, and every so often the fate of the entire universe in the balance.

It's been running for 50 years now, and has several long running spin-off accompaniments, including audio-drams by Big Finish; comic series by Image,Titan, and Marvel; and novels by different companies. In addition, several characters from the show and books/audios have gotten their own spin-offs, such as time traveling archaeologist Bernice Summerfield, former companion Sarah Jane Smith, former companion and Time Lady Romanadvoretrelundar, time traveling archaeologist River Song, immortal time traveling ex-cop Captain Jack Harkness, and several other characters over the years.