T_ballack

@kaladar007 Alright, I've recovered enough from going through that mental energy draining post, let's tackle the rest of the "post"

How many on that list are smarter, cunnier than klaus?

Klaus isn't a being of immense intelligence, he is above average intelligence at best, but he is cunning, but then again, it's the kind of show TVD and TO are, everyone is cunning, you trick me today, I trick you tomorrow, and so on and so forth, and Klaus isn't even the most standout of the bunch. But to be fair, TVD's position on his rank allows him to use the "and yet I cannot be killed and will hunt you for eternity" hammer on every problem he has.

How many on that list can REACT to over 60 vampire Army in unarmed combat and in Close Quarter Combat and NOT BE TAGGED for a minute? Etc etc

When did this happen? Marcel's army? The ones that beat him and chained him and then decided to forgo their numbers advantage and go at him one-on-one when he was making his comback? Is that the one. I don't think you understand the difference in power here, even Julie Plec would be shocked that you think Klaus could do anything to Superman. Look, in that same situation, Supes could stand there for a whole day with the vampire mobs punching, stabbing and kicking and wouldn't feel a thing, that's how much of a difference in weight-class there is, between a wall level DC and Mountain-Level durability which i think is what MOS superman is currently at, much less comic book versions. Think Klaus punching at a mountain, do you think anything would happen?

How many of them are invulnerable ? Immortality + Indestructibility+ regeneration+ magic reanimation +Infinite magic = Invulnerability.

None of the Originals

KLAUS IS ALL OF THE ABOVE AND MORE IN ONE BEING. IF YOU AND OTHERS DREAM SELENE BEATS KLAUS, THEN SHE BEATS SUPERMAN, ODIN, DIANA AND THANOS INDIVIDUALLY.

Yeah Selene isn't beating any of those people, and neither is Klaus.

You think that Selene who cant even SURVIVE ONLY 4 of marcus shots without commiting suicide in absence of blood will defeat a head or heart ripper who does it handsoff by throwing paper and is ALL of the Above.

Selene survived those shots quite fine, and she did not commit suicide, she was trying to undertake the Van Dohr ritual, she was not interested in the fight, which is reflected in her actions.

selene who can't piercing durability when :

1)50 cents(9 shots) and still drove self to the hospital is talking

2) 21 savage (6 shots) is talking

3) Theo Harris (16 shots)is talking

4)Joseph Guzman (19 shots)is talking.

I fail to see your point in this, so these people survived, but in what circumstances, where any vital organs hit, how long did it take them to receive medical attention, what level of medical attention did they receive, was there any lasting damage from the injuries, because of all these factors, that likely impacted their survival, it cannot be categorized as durability since, if the same thing happened again, survival cannot always be guaranteed. Besides, if you just go through the discussions, you'll see evidence posted of Selene tanking a gunshot right in the head and no-selling it. She has taking a shotgun blast to the abdomen, even before any enhancements, she casually walked through a hail of bullets in awakening, when she was going to rescue Eve.

An Immortal, Vampire Hybrid. Over 600 years old who cannot tank a stab from lucien to the hand with an passing on the wheels. 50cents took 8 with one inside the mouth and He drove.

Based off of this, and so many of your other statements, you are either purposefully misrepresenting what happened, or you had your eyes closed, or your brain closed when watching the movies, or you just haven't watched them before. This happened before any of her enhancements, she would have fared way better with the injuries you mention about 50cent. Her healing factor then, was similar to those on TVD, only difference was it was slower, not as instant as TVD's.

Now what happened was more than a mere stab, looking at the length of Lucian's weapon, it was pretty much a sword, and looking at the part stained with blood, it was almost half of it, and he stabbed downwards at her shoulder, do you understand what i'm saying here, a few centimeters and he would have sheared her arm clean off, that's how deep the wound was, and removing the weapon in that scenario, caused massive blood loss, and her healing factor couldn't keep up, so she passed out, the next scene, after Michael stopped the bleeding, she wakes up and was completely healed. The point, is she will heal most injuries provided they don't cause massive blood loss, which a bullet doesn't always cause. After her first amp, becoming a Corvinus hybrid, her healing factor is IMO better than Klaus's because she heals instantly now, like TVD vamps, AND doesn't get KO'ed by any major organs being damaged; like destroyed heart, or head shot, which has been shown to KO originals.

Damon on vervaine, wore neck spikes, chest, waist and leg spike and they were pulled by werewolves and he didn't snitch the moonstone and laughed their torture. Selene is beaten see a gun and starts snitching on her daughter 'I swear I don't know'.

The average tvd vampire Damon and Enzo survived 75 year in Augustin where they remove their internals and you have mouth to talk?

Snitching on her daughter huh. Is it snitching if she doesn't know, and getting Marius to believe it faster could possibly cause him to call of the strike on the Vampire coven they unwilling involved in their fight? lol you're too much, pretending she did it because of the pain. Every version of Selene would also have survived the augustine torture, her base version is the only questionable one, because of her slower healing and being susceptible to blood loss before fully healing, and that would have been a problem if the people torturing them weren't medical professionals, meaning her carelessly bleeding out would have been out of the question, besides lol, with the primitive setup in keeping them locked up, my money is on Selene escaping a lot sooner than 75 years.

A bunch of death dealers who use ROTWEILERS as security.

Carry knifes, guns, swords and were bullet proof

Your point? Dogs are good as a form of alarm for the vampires in the day WHEN they were likely asleep. If you watched Rise of the Lycans, you'll know they tried werewolves, didn't really work out. So they arm themselves, because it's more efficient, what's the problem with that. Lol when barely trained individuals in TVD did the same, i seem to remember them having a lot of success. No?. You could keep using claws and teeth forever while the rest of the world advances.

A bunch of werewolves whom human raze was beating with his punches. I die if it were untransformed tyler wolf he wouldn't jack.

Yeah, he wasn't beating them, IIRC, he was chained, and the first one that attacked him snapped his chains, and yes he did defend himself, punching them back. That's what happens with wall level characters, a peak human-level fighter can deal damage to them. Now the important thing to remember is, these were mindless beasts, 1st gen werewolves, no strategy, no thinking just instinct, charge forward. Lying in wait strategy is all they could employ. As far as it not happening to Tyler, come on, we've seen witches, who basically have worse reactions than Raze catch vampires and werewolves on numerous occasions.

Wait for my writeup on Selene vs klaus. You will know that even Augustin Vampire Damon is a threat to Selene.

lol what choice do I have. Base selene is the only selene klaus has a chance against, and she's still wins 7 or 8 times out of 10, any of her amped version, flattens hims

@kaladar007 While it seems pointless, i'll try to pick some of the less b***hit points you have and show you just how b***hit they are

For striking power, i'm aware of the feat you speak of, but how did you come about your number 12 feet deep? The amount of rock shown breaking certainly doesn't match that, and the next scene where Elena is trying to get a signal certainly didn't show that amount of rock needing to have been broken, like i mentioned in several posts before, i don't know how this can be calculated but it still looks like a wall level feat. Nothing compared to the names you've dropped who have been known to be capable of obliterating CITIES AT A MINIMUM when they fight unrestrained. and MOS Superman is not a good comparison to be using with Klaus, because he is easily one of the strongest non-comic representations of Supes. You talk about Elijah breaking a few rocks, go rewatch his first flight. It almost looked like he was "bending space" and affecting things around him while kneeling, and just his liftoff, put massive striations on the ground.

Klaus is Immortal? Sure, many characters in fiction are, Klaus is invulnerable except White Oak? Is a NLF for a wall level character.

His speed. Do you realize that it does not matter how the feat is visualized to you, what matters is the extent of the feat. How fast or slow something appears to be moving to you isn't always an indication of it's actual speed. Almost like some form of parallax. You are comparing supes a character that has FTL movements speeds to Klaus lol, even the MOS version has massively hypersonic movements, going ground to space in seconds, crossing continents in seconds lol. All I can do is laugh. The whole speed akin to teleportation thing, i don't think you understand how speed works, just like TVD crew. Smallville did a good job of it, they always had Clark at Blur speed, but whenever another speedster was in town, they showed how 2 speedstars would interact with each other. Look up shared Clark-time on the smallville wiki, TVD and TO inability to understand this is what makes you think it's a feat that Elijah blitzes the Strix. IT IS NOT, Even if it were, it is not significant enough to put him at the ankles of MOS Supes.

Invulnerability = NLF 'nuff said

•How many on that list can live without a HEAD?

None of the Originals

•How many on that list can regenerate from ashes and heal virtually instantly?

None of the Originals (lol ashes)

How many on that list can't be killed by magic and are infinite source of magic? = Another NLF

•How many on that List have compulsion?

How many on that list can't be killed by magic and are infinite source of magic?

How many on that list supply magic from themselves to others enough to ressurect immortals, indestructible or bestow immortality. How many could ressurect frigga or anything?

How many on that list have Anger and Emotional Empowerment?

How many have lycanthropic enhancement?

How many have and use Telepathy?

How many on that have super senses and psychic sensing?

How many can perceive cloak witches?

How many can track you psychically?

How many on that carry weapon when klaus turn inferior things to projectiles?

How many on that list don't get tired of fighting even against magic?

At this point, not even sure where you're pulling some of these from. But they are all non-factors. lol I give up on rebutting the rest

hahahahaha ^ this guy.

How many of them are TROLLS

How many of them W*NK Klaus to no end

How many of them are high out of their minds

@boc: Pity, because you did make some good arguments, so you are definitely a reasonable debator, but the evidence, sadly do not back klaus

Seems like the usually powerscaling wank is the basis for a lot of arguments

Since baby vampire X can do Y, that older vampire Z must be much much stronger, but exactly how much are we talking, because if we were to assign numbers, if X is 10 and Z is 15, Z is technically stronger,

and lets not forget the classic older vampire Z is this strong, therefore original E must be much much stronger, and since it's said that original E is the easter bunny compared of original hybrid K, then K must be even stronger still, but you forget all of this could be true with K only ending up being at 25.

What the visuals look like isn't always indicative of the extent, an innocuous looking feat could produce high numbers, while a flashy looking feat could produce low numbers, especially for a show like TVD and TO where the produces don't seem to have an idea of how speed works, that leads to what some of you have been calling low-showings.

TVD rule 1: A character must blitz and show whoosh whoosh to show they are fast. Damon has blitzed Stefan on occasions, Stefan has Blitzed Damon of occasions, how is that even possible. Sometimes, it's almost like the producers do not realize that when a Vampire is moving at blurring speed, other vampires are actually seeing them move normally, because they have reactions fast enough to perceive movements of that speed. Sometimes, It feels almost as if, the vampires of TVD have superhuman speed but with human reactions.

As far as the argument on Klaus and Selene. Some mentioned compulsion, but by TVD rules, their compulsions have limitations on certain types of beings, not working on witches, werewolves and so on, this means the fact that Selene is not a regular human or TVD type vampire makes it a toss-up on whether or not his compulsion will work on her, same with his werewolf venom.

Speed-wise, there's been a lot of numbers thrown around, like the Mach 200+ and Mach 20+, at least @boc seems to have conceded on those numbers being unlikely. Several good arguments showing they are not that high, an entire arc predicated on the premise of them not being bullet-timers, (which some think they can just disregard as low showing or PIS), this is the show quite literally telling you they are not bullet timers, not with one low showing scene but with AN ENTIRE ARC.

Strength wise, various feats have been mentioned, but aside from powerscaling fallacy, biggest feats seem to include; Tyler's chain breaking, which Michael has done quite effortlessly, Elijah lifting the side of an RV, which again does not equal lifting the whole thing. I gave an example, I might not be able to lift my couch that weighs 80kg, but i can easily lift one end of it to get something underneath, I don't know how you'd calculate that, there were a few other feats mentioned, but off the top of my head, aside from X can do this and Y is stronger.

The only interesting feat I can remember off of the top of my head is the ground breaking one, i dont know how you's calculate that but it seems to be the most interesting one I can remember. Aside from this, as far as i recall, Selene has better feats than anyone in TVD. She can easily move a parked car, matched and ovepowered someone who can pull down a helicopter, flipped a speeding van through the air several feets across a room. NO-ONE on TVD can do anything remotely close to this, they've had fights around cars and never seem to be able to generate enough force to move the car an inch. Someone said Damon moved Elena's car off the road, do we have the scene of him pushing or carrying it, or did he just pull over to the side of the road. IIRC it was off-screen so why assume he didn't just move it off road by conventional means.

Durability wise, this one is a little trickier because of the healing factor. TVD vampires have better healing than underworld vampires no doubt, one of the commonly quoted feat is "Baby-Vampire" Elena where she jumps off a high point and survives, while this is a durability feat, I'd argue that it's a vampire trope, that doesn't often translate to the actual story. Like in lost boys vampires jump off planes and land on their feet but don't show comparable durability in the actual story. A considerable amount of vampire shows have something like this, you might think this doesn't matter concerning TVD, but it does since they take way more damage from less force in story. Selene also does a similar thing, jumping from the top of a mountain or hill to save Michael from Markus, and off a mountain in her fight against Marius. It could also be something similar to cats, where something about their physiology prevents them from taking as much damage, or just an outlier.

It certainly does not translate to the argument, "Baby-Vampire" Elena took no damage from a drop from a hill, so if you hit her with a blunt force attack of less or equal to the force sustained from her drop, she'll take no damage. Which is what is being done here, along with the, then Y > X and then Z >>>> than Y, lol.

Given that the forces that have knocked out originals are levels that are easily generated by Selene, she won't break a sweat knocking Klaus out, on the other hand, Selene has taken far more blunt force damage than Klaus can dish out, tanked some, no-sold some, so Klaus' chance in defeating her is not from blunt force damage but from piercing damage, and without a speed advantage, his chance will come down to does he have the skill to be able to land fatal damage on her, and the answer is NO.

On skill, people's argument are he's a viking and he's 1000 years old, but how much does that translate to skill, especially when we rarely see this skill in his fights, since TVD fights mainly come down to bull-rushing and most of the 1000 years were spent more running and plotting, what with him being King "unkill-able" and all. Selene is an extremely skilled and deadly fighter with hundreds of years experience hunting and fighting ferocious creatures and on occasions renegade vampires, and she frequently demonstrates these skills in battle.

The biggest point, which has been relatively understated here, even by myself is the one @death4bunnies brings up about vampires being KO'ed by bullets to the head, I didn't even remember that lol, it makes the whole fight a mismatched STOMP, because selene's primary means of combat are automatic guns, and she does not need to think of whether or not it might be a weakness because unloading her guns into her opponent's head always seems like a good idea to Selene, especially since he isn't a bullet timer.

Even without the guns, Klaus still gets taken down hard,

She is faster, stronger, more durable, and a far more skilled fighter. Klaus does "arguably" have a better heal factor because unlike her, he doesn't need to feed to accelerate the healing process like selene needs to do for severe wounds, but what is key to note is, severe means something else for selene, I would think she would literally have to be decapitated, dismembered or suffer near total blood loss to get to that point, seeing as she has survived having her heart destroyed, a bullet to the brain, and numerous other bodily harm. People are quick to mention the fight with Marius, and YES, she did lose that fight but she was not interested much in fighting, which reflected in when she told marius "my time is up", it had nothing to do with sustaining damage, she could have got right up and continued fighting, she has survived multiple body shots and damage through the heart before, would she have won? No way to know, but she wasn't damaged beyond fighting, which reflected in her next actions, lifting the side of that huge slab of ice and going into the water "TO FOLLOW THE VAN DOHR RITUAL" in a bid to seek peace, which is what affected her eyes.

My point?, while she doesn't have instant regen from severe injuries without healing, it takes a truckload of bodily harm to get her to that point, or just nightshade. But funnily, same could be said about originals, getting incapacitated when their brain or heart gets damaged. It might exist, but after becoming a hybrid, I don't recall a scene where she required to feed to heal, except the paralysis one, meaning that except fire (because this is unknown), she might actually have better regen than they do.

The most fallacious point i think, might be the one about when Elijah was captured and they declared him invulnerable, but aside the flamethrower and fire which we know wont work, should we just automatically assume absolutely nothing can damage them except WHITE OAK, wouldn't that be a No-Limits Fallacy, and if we do put a limit, where do we stop, we have never seen anyone dismember them on screen, does that equal they cant be dismembered? another fallacy, especially since we've seen holes punched in their chest. Wouldn't it be more accurate to use what we have seen them survive? Take Marius in underworld for example, in the first fight against Selene, she executes a 2-handed swing with a sword and he blocks it with his arm, making an almost metallic sound, then she tries harder and is just barely able to get past his skin, she literally had to punch the sword to get it completely through, this is representative of a common trope in fiction, the more power and/or skill you apply to a bladed weapon, the better it can cut durable opponents, perhaps damon and katerina just weren't strong enough to cut off his hands and legs. Why should that apply to Selene when she has displayed far more power than has been shown able to cause damage to the originals skin.

Mate, what are you smoking? This is the problem with you NLF nuts, you cannot think logically because of the sheer amount of fallacious thinking clouding your judgement. I've seen several arguments from everyone here but yours just kills brain cells.

Comparing Klaus to Superman, Wonderwoman, Thanos, Odin, because "ONLY WHITE OAK STAKE CAN KILL HIM" hence no white oak means he can beat everyone. You don't think that looks suspect? I dont even see a point in debating any of your arguments if that is your stance

You are quick to draw 1 scene and use this to classify other scenes as PIS, can't this also be conversely said that scenes you mention are outliers. Just a thought. Anyways which scene was this, was it the injection scene someone mentioned earlier. I think I was wondering, can those bullets use gunpowder like regular guns? Do they travel as fast since their shapes are also not the same as regular bullets?

So you claim Finn was able to react to Mach 20 movement? Esther? Dahlia? They were able to react at Mach 20?? for real? Freyja too? Isn't this getting out of hand. There was a time they couldn't stop Davina too, was she also Mach 20 reactions?

@d2therj: You're right about the call thing, I just saw it. I watched this episode but a long time ago when it came out, these days I only navigate to relevant scenes to refresh my memory. Even taking the first phone call into consideration, why are you counting the runtime of the episode as time passed in the TVD world. You think i takes 6 minutes to get a graduation going? Everyone getting lined up, the crowd getting seated and any pre certificate collection event and performance going on. Any amount of time could have passed. Which drastically lowers your "calc" if you still wanted to go that way. But it's still more likely he was already in Mystic Falls.

Question, When he saved them, aside from giving Damon his blood, did he do anything else to help with regards to the dead? I dont remember.

Elijah did Mach 23 in Originals. Klaus did this in TVD.

Again, you've pivoted some points (making powerscale comparisons to witches and low-ball showings). I'm just giving you the calculations on these speed feats. No one in the underworld universe has done this - we're talking about a universe that relied on horses to traverse long distances quickly. Selene's amp had some nice FTE feats - but nothing we hadn't already seen done better and more constantly in the first season of TVD.

So the entire white oak bullet arc was PIS?? This isn't a single scene or low showing, this was an entire arc on The Originals, every character clearly believed the bullets were a threat even the Originals. The scene where Aurora, (I think thats her name) shoots, Elijah, Klaus is visibly scared during the whole ordeal.

And besides all of this, you've yet to explain how Selene can kill something which cannot be killed by traditional means. Two combatants without any PIS, how does she put him down? She can't.

That's because I was replying to your comments. We've been debating the feats you brought up

Klaus however can kill Selene. Off goes her head, hand through chest. Just man-handling her to death. All of which is even worse when taking into account the speed differential.

Selene was left bloodied and bruised by Marius whose best calculable strength feat was breaking open the cage to get to her. The same cage of which she couldn't escape btw (so was Marius far stronger than her?). What was the cage made of? I would venture a bet if you ran the numbers, its not that impressive. Which is an even worse showing for her if that's the case.

We've seen TVD Elijah toss a handful of coins with such force that it exploded ballistics grade polycarbonate. I've seen vamps break steel vaults doors, and punch through layers of concrete.

You compare the two universes, and one is far greater in terms of power than the other.

Klaus is not skilled enough to man handle her, nor is he strong enough to do so. You claim the 2 universes aren't comparable in terms of power, you're right. Underworld is well above TVD in terms of raw power. Who in the TVD verse is capable of doing this

Klaus was manhandled by Lucien when he was the beast but even he doesn't have strength comparable to Selene. That up there is a regular werewolf, Selene pre-amp was able to hold one off with a single hand

Sure she used the wall as leverage but she was able to stop the werewolf, which was similar to the one that could easily push a jeep across a considerable distance. This strength feat was before any amp. After first amp, she becomes stronger than an elder who could body slam a heavy duty truck, pull down an escaping chopper with a yank one handed, and then she gets further amped as a Van Dohr vampire.

You misunderstand what happened against Marius, she was way stronger than him, the successive hits she got from him was from her grieving from having lost Michael and not concentrating on the fight. The instant she accept the loss, she ripped his spine out, and is shown with any moving without any difficulty.

The TVD ripped safe feat was from Stefan right. He didn't rip the door wasn't it just the handle. Punching through concrete? Lycans do that frequently in Underworld.

Elijah also once lifted the side of a small RV, I mentioned this before, he wouldn't even need 1 ton of strength to do that, since he wasn't lifting the full weight. It's like lifting a heavy desk, it's much easier to lift just 1 side than the whole thing.

@d2therj: If i'm to understand you, every time Klaus got shot was PIS, even though an entire arc revolved around White Oak Bullets, and vampires from all around the world coming over to get it. That's all PIS, even though a major scene where originals "get serious" like you said when their loved one is in danger, shows explicitly that they cant move faster than a bullet, still PIS. Even though a raging bloodlusted Klaus has been stopped by Finn as a witch which is human, still PIS. Remember the entire arc, Finn terrorized them. And all this because of scenes that don't get a definite showing.

Look up Originals Season 3 Ep 17, from the 22 minute mark. You clearly see. Originals are not faster than a bullet.

Again, Klaus was not hiding from Silas as a reason for leaving, he went there after Katherine told him they were plotting to kill him, and then on getting there found he was a Baby Daddy, and decided to stay on Elijah's advice, he had no qualms, returning to Mystic Falls for Caroline's graduation. And tbh, since the originals had technically not started, pretty sure he had time.