sladerulez

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sladerulez

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@sladerulez said:

@randybutternubs: And I only brought it up because you tried to use it against him.

I never used them though

Meaning that now there's only two fights where he was Beaten with no weaknesses to be used against him. Jade and Kung Lao.

He was beaten twice by Shao Kahn, Lost to Kung Jin, Jacqui, and Jade. Nothing states that he was weakened in that forest fight with Kotal Kahn.

I remember a friend suggesting that Kotal didn't truly want to hurt Jade and allowed her to lose, but That doesn't really go beyond Speculation, and I'm not too convinced myself.

Kotal Kahn came off with the intent to harm. Funny how he cares for Jade yet he turned on her quickly.

There's also the argument that MK11 Jade is simply a lot stronger than her MK9 counterpart and was bumped up to a high tier. Which isn't entirely unreasonable, given she bested Dvorah too. The only reasonable explanation that feels consistent overall.

No evidence to suggest Jade got stronger in MK11. Hardly did anything In MK9, missing in MKX and now in MK11 she is brought back to defeat Kotal.

Evidence?

Then there's Shao Kahn. To which... It's Shao Kahn. This version of Shao was able to even beat Liu Kang. The fact that Kitana and Kotal could win at all is a marvel to behold, since Shao Kahn is well out of their league. However, the same applies to Kung Lao, who unlike Kitana and Kotal, never faced someone comparable to him and won.

Kitana wins but Kotal doesn't, at all. He gets humilated twice. Theres a reason why people make jokes about him and criticizes MK for what they done to Kotal. Kung Lao Defeated Scorpion, Shang Tsung, Quan Chi and Kintaro. Thats impressive for someone who isn't suppose to be in Shao Kahns tier.

and Kung Lao also lost to him. With no victory to soften the blow. You use the argument of tiers, but isn't he viewed as comparable to Kitana and Liu Kang? we get no indication that he could beat Shao Kahn at all, and the people he does beat are bigger jobbers than the kombat kids.

Hell, Kintaro has never won a single fight in the series. How is beating him impressive? He didn't even fully defeat Scorpion, he left the room cause of the gas and walked away perfectly fine. Shang Tsung gets ragdolled throughout the series.

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@randybutternubs: over all, it's dependant on what you put over the other.

Feats or fights.

Kotal's feats outsell Kung Lao's by a large margin, showing levels of Power that Kung Lao cannot rival.

Kung Lao's victories, on the other hand is what gives him any edge, as he is more consistent.

I focus more on the prior cause MK's Chapter system makes fights incredibly inconsistent. Causing fights that don't make a lot of sense for the sake of having that four fight requirement. Meaning that they are unreliable.

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@sladerulez said:

@randybutternubs: It's a stalemate in terms of standard strength, especially when we have nothing before or after that could deem Sheeva as capable of doing more than what she did against Kotal. Kotal had a disadvantage and still held his own.

A stalemate is a draw. I'm not going to use your own headcanon definition of a stalemate. Those two grappling each other for a few seconds does not show whos superior.

I view a stalemate and a draw as one of the same, I don't really get what headcannon you're suggesting me to have

If Kung Lao was in the same position, Damaged spine against Sheeva, can you guarantee that he'd emerge victorious, If not, then how could you use it against someone who's just as vulnerable to the same logic

Don't make up hypotheticals, it makes you look desperate and is irrelevant to something that actually did happen.

Except that is what we are left with. Comparing the situations of both to find more information. Because Kotal's best feats excede Kung Lao, but the inconsistencies in the fights cause people to overlook it in order to make it easier for them.

Going off of feats, Kotal wins, due to having some really powerful feats under his belt.

Going off of fights, His fight with Shao Kahn is better than any of Kung Lao's showings, but Kung Lao is more consistent.

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@randybutternubs: And I only brought it up because you tried to use it against him.

Meaning that now there's only two fights where he was Beaten with no weaknesses to be used against him. Jade and Kung Lao.

I remember a friend suggesting that Kotal didn't truly want to hurt Jade and allowed her to lose, but That doesn't really go beyond Speculation, and I'm not too convinced myself.

There's also the argument that MK11 Jade is simply a lot stronger than her MK9 counterpart and was bumped up to a high tier. Which isn't entirely unreasonable, given she bested Dvorah too. The only reasonable explanation that feels consistent overall.

Then there's Shao Kahn. To which... It's Shao Kahn. This version of Shao was able to even beat Liu Kang. The fact that Kitana and Kotal could win at all is a marvel to behold, since Shao Kahn is well out of their league. However, the same applies to Kung Lao, who unlike Kitana and Kotal, never faced someone comparable to him and won.

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@randybutternubs: It's a stalemate in terms of standard strength, especially when we have nothing before or after that could deem Sheeva as capable of doing more than what she did against Kotal. Kotal had a disadvantage and still held his own.

If Kung Lao was in the same position, Damaged spine against Sheeva, can you guarantee that he'd emerge victorious, If not, then how could you use it against someone who's just as vulnerable to the same logic

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@sladerulez said:

@randybutternubs: His main inconsistencies are four Specific fights. Two can be explained through the conditions of the fight (Couldn't use his magic against Jacqui/ had a damaged spine against Sheeva) the other two are left with no explanation, one could argue that they were outliers that Contradict Kotal's feats, and it'd be a fitting argument, but Jade is a competent fighter herself, while Kung Jin just has no moments of showcasing weakness, meaning that a loss to him would either bring Kung Jin up the ladder, or it would mean that Kung Jin's genuine competence is higher than given credit for.

Kotal should still be above a person like Jacqui without the need of the sun should he not? Are you telling me he is complete fodder without it? That is pretty bad. Jade is competent but Kotal was obviously intented to be Shao Kahns level and the fact that he lost to her doesn't make sense. Kung Jin just doesn't have any impressive showings. All he did was defeat some Kahn guards and Ferra/Torr who also have zero feats. Kotal losing to someone that has next to none good showings is bad.

Except even in his fight with Jacqui, Kotal gets up immediately after with no visible injuries, as Kotal's men surround them. In Kotal's battle against Jacqui, he had everything against him and he gets up as if nothing happened.

As opposed to his fight with Kung Jin where he Couldn't get up and was struggling, in spite of having all his magic. That makes Kung Jin even more impressive and arguably stronger than Jacqui and arguably Takeda if you wanna push it

Kung Jin actually has to do some Jobbing for that defeat to be deemed a feat against Kotal. Otherwise, it reaches a moot point

He doesn't have to do jobbing. If a supposed high tier loses to someone with barley any feats or and nothing but defeat fodder

Then that is a feat for the featless character, not the other way around. Especially when he does better than Jacqui who had every advantage and didn't seem to truly harm him by the end, even if she won

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@randybutternubs: You acknowledged that they stalemated. My point is that an Injured Kotal could match a Healthy Sheeva in a stalemate, meanwhile, We can't really guarantee that Sheeva could beat Kotal if he was fully powered, since Kotal pushed her back, meaning that feat can't be used against him since he had a legitimate reason for losing.

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It is a relevant question when you bring his defeats against Shao Kahn, but won't speak on how Kung Lao would fair in the same situation. In which it has never gone in his favor. Kotal's 1/3 against Shao Kahn is better than Kung Lao's 0/1. And whether or not Kung Lao was supposed to beat him is less relevant to the fact that he can't beat him. Not even in the past timeline

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@randybutternubs: His main inconsistencies are four Specific fights. Two can be explained through the conditions of the fight (Couldn't use his magic against Jacqui/ had a damaged spine against Sheeva) the other two are left with no explanation, one could argue that they were outliers that Contradict Kotal's feats, and it'd be a fitting argument, but Jade is a competent fighter herself, while Kung Jin just has no moments of showcasing weakness, meaning that a loss to him would either bring Kung Jin up the ladder, or it would mean that Kung Jin's genuine competence is higher than given credit for.

Kung Jin actually has to do some Jobbing for that defeat to be deemed a feat against Kotal. Otherwise, it reaches a moot point