Tenebrae's Updated Power: A Comprehensive Chronological Analysis

I am creating this for my own use, as much as I am using it to spread the lesser known feats and accolades in Valkorion's name.

As a child of ten years, Vitiate learns how to manipulate Holocrons in an advanced way:

All holocrons are based on a complex yet elegant technology: a lattice of organic crystals woven together at a microscopic level. The crystal lattice can store vast amounts of information, as well as replicate the appearance and personality of the holocron's creator as a gatekeeper who will guide students in their training.

In his youth, Valkorion--then known as Tenebrae--discovered a way to twist and pervert the lattice so it could capture the spirit of powerful Force users, locking them in a metaphysical cage. He used the weapon on Dramath, his tyrannical father, and trapped him inside the holocron for centuries.

Credit: Dramath's Holocron Codex Entry

Surpassing Darth Bane, where he struggled to painstakingly achieve the creation of a regular Sith Holocron, despite having the blueprint of Freedon Nadd's own Holocron:

Using Freedon Nadd's Holocron as a blueprint, he had re-created the intricate matrix of lattices and vertices that were the key to storing nearly infinite amounts of knowledge in a data system small enough to fit in the palm of a hand. It had taken months to gather and fashion the rare crystal into the filaments and fibers of the interlaced network, followed by weeks of delicate and painstaking adjustments. The matrix had to fall within highly exacting specifications, and Bane had spent hundreds of hours making thousands of precise, subatomic alterations through the power of the Force to ensure that each crystalline strand was properly in place.

Once the crystal matrix inside the Holocron was ready, he had carefully transcribed the ancient symbols of Sith power onto the pyramid's surface. The markings were part of a powerful ritual that was critical to maintaining the stability of the matrix after it was infused with the energies of the dark side. Unfamiliar with the exact purpose or meaning of the arcane glyphs, Darth Bane had once again used Nadd's Holocron as his guide, studying the markings etched on the surface, then copying them exactly on his own creation.

But when he tried to activate the Holocron by channeling his power through it, the matrix imploded, collapsing in on itself and reducing the artifact to a pile of glimmering dust in a crackling white flash.

He had tried again several months later, only to be met with the exact same result. Forced to admit that the secret of crafting Holo-crons was still beyond him, Bane had begun a campaign to discover everything he could about the powerful talismans. With Zannah's aid, he accumulated a vast wealth of knowledge on the subject.

Credit: Darth Bane: Rule of Two

This is prior to a century of growth and mastery:

"It took Tenebrae three more years to gain control of the rest of Nathema. Dramath's firstborn son fled rather than face his formidable half brother, but other powerful Sith sought to seize the empty throne. All fell before the dark prodigy, and with each victory he grew more powerful and more ruthless."

Credit: Darth Nyriss, SWTOR Revan

Vitiate enacts the Ritual of Nathema, becoming multiple times more powerful:

The plan was both horrifying and brilliant. In addition to becoming more powerful than Meetra could imagine, Vitiate could blame the extinction of his homeworld on the Jedi, further panicking the remaining Sith worlds.

Credit: SWTOR: Revan

This places Vitiate above Darth Nihilus, as of the completion of the Nathema Ritual. Darth Nihilus being an unquestionably more powerful being than even a powerhouse such as Galen Marek, by comparison of telekinetic feats:

Nihilus pulled the Ravager, and other ships in his fleet, out of the gravity well of Malachor V:

"This ship, is it his weakness? It should not exist, yet it cruises the darkness between the stars. He tore it from the mass shadows of Malachor, along with his fleet, that is a measure of his power."

Credit: Colonel Tobin, KOTOR 2

NOTE: The circumstances surrounding this are insane given the following:

The storms of Malachor V are enough to draw down even the strongest of ships. Once on the surface, there is little chance of escape.

Credit: KOTOR 2

In comparison, it took Galen Marek passing out to pull an already falling ISD down to the surface of Raxus Prime:

With his legs braced firmly in the trash, he reached as deep as he had ever reached into the Force, and then went farther still, feeling as though a mighty chasm had opened up under him and his mind and will plunged down into it. The chasm filled. His mind opened. The physical existence of the Star Destroyer slid painlessly inside.

....

The apprentice ignored it all. While the illusion held, he moved his hand a very slight distance to his right. The sensation of containing a vast, million-ton machine in the tip of one finger was deeply disorienting. He felt as though every muscle fiber, nerve, and bone groaned along with the metal seams and joints of the ship. What it felt, he felt, too, and even a small acceleration had a profound effect on such a large scale. It resisted with all the momentum it possessed. Hatches swang open; rivets popped; bulkheads twisted; pipes burst.

The Star Destroyer didn’t appear to have moved much in the sky. It was still coming in low on the horizon, aiming to pass over him and strafe him from above. He shifted his hand a second time, but instead of changing its course he mistakenly gave it a slight tumble. He needed to apply the Force the right way for this to work, taking the growing forces of friction and the shifting of its center of gravity into account. A spinning Star Destroyer would do more damage than one burying itself nose-first into the cannon and its superstructure. Damage was good, when it came to destroying the Emperor’s handiwork, but too much damage could destroy him and perhaps the Rogue Shadow as well under a deadly rain of molten shrapnel.

Bring it down in one piece, he told himself. Bring it down hard.

The ship growled and squealed in metal torment. He was getting the hang of it; he could see how its course was slowly shifting. As wide across as his outstretched hand now, it was hitting the atmosphere at a steeper angle than he had intended, burning bright red and already gouting a trail of black smoke and sparkling debris. He became aware of a sound communicated through his feet: a rumbling much deeper and more sustained than the pounding of the cannon, which had fallen silent after the firing of the third projectile. The Star Destroyer’s incomplete frame was acting like a giant tube, and the atmosphere was resonating inside. His whole body sang with it.

More. The Star Destroyer was really picking up speed now. The thickening atmosphere had a slight braking effect, but nothing could prevent the inevitable. It was going to hit soon. A wild exodus of droids ran past him, fleeing the crash site. The TIE fighters it had launched raced ahead of the chaotic atmospheric waves it generated. He ignored them and concentrated on shifting ground zero as close to the cannon as he could.

Sparks danced in front of his eyes. The edges of his vision faded to black. Light and dark swirls spun around him, wraith-like. He felt momentarily faint and wondered if it was possible to dissolve into the Force. He was a speck caught in the updraft over a forest fire—yet somehow he had the audacity to try to command the fire to do his will.

Who did he think he was?

A sudden panic almost made him lose control. The Star Destroyer, now a burning, shrieking meteor, filled his entire forward vision. The hull was peeling away in fiery, golden strips, each one weighing hundreds of tons, exposing the darker skeleton beneath. It looked like a death’s-head, a ghastly mask not dissimilar to his Master’s, but one molten like lava.

....

The apprentice clutched at it with desperation, needing to regain control of the Star Destroyer lest it tear itself apart and disperse the impact. He needed to find his focus again, to ignore the feeling of dissolution eating at the edges of his self, and to tip the balance of power back toward him.

....

He gritted his teeth and snarled at the sky. The dead weight of the Star Destroyer shifted one last time, changing its angle of descent just enough to hang together those last few hundred meters, but not enough to risk bouncing. Only seconds remained before it hit and it was still getting bigger. It was impossible that the sky could contain so much metal!

Abandoning his control over the ship, knowing there was nothing now that he could do to alter its course, the apprentice staggered backward, dazed. The Force fled from him, leaving him wrung out and drained. With a sound like the world ending, the Star Destroyer completed its first and final journey. It hit the cannon, exactly as it was supposed to, and the sky turned white. The ground buckled beneath the apprentice’s feet. He pinwheeled, unable to find his balance, as a tsunami of junk and waste rose up ahead of him and blotted out the sun.

Credit: The Force Unleashed

Galen goes on to engage Emperor Palpatine in a battle of desperation for both sides:

"You fool!" snarled the Emperor, sending another wave of Sith lightning into Kota's back. "He will never be yours."

Kota fell with his arms upraised, and the apprentice knew that it wasn't over yet. The moment of truth had arrived.

Without hesitation, he stepped between Kota and the Emperor, taking the full brunt of the Sith lightning into his own body.

The pain was incredible, searing every nerve back to its individual cells, skewering each of them on white-hot needles. He had never before felt anything like this. He wanted to recoil from the source, to curl into a ball and let unconsciousness take the pain away, but somehow he stayed standing, seeing the world through a crackling blue light, and even took a step toward the Emperor.

"Go!" he hissed at Kota. "Hurry!"

The general hesitated only for a moment. He, too, had seen a glimpse of the future, the apprentice remembered. He knew that it came down to a simple choice: him and the Rebels or the apprentice and darkness forever. Gathering up the Rebels, Kola ushered them toward the descending ship.

Another staggering, painful step and the Emperor was within the apprentice's reach. With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain. Darkness threatened to envelop the apprentice's mind, but he clutched to consciousness with feverish will. He had to see this through. He had to.

Credit: The Force Unleashed

Darth Nihilus, however, had achieved his telekinetic feat prior to absorbing numerous planets of their Force energy:

The Ravager was hauled from the gravity well at Malachor V by its new master. He used it to escape imprisonment on Malachor V.

Credit: KOTOR 2

Meaning, Nihilus' feat was massively pre-prime. His growth due to planet draining being immense here:

While illness cannibalizes his body, a vast emptiness devours his humanity. Then, when all seems lost, he discovers that his emptiness hungered. The first time, he fed it unconsciously. Draining another being's life is frightening, nauseating, but for a euphoric moment, the memories, the illness, the hunger disappeared.

But it proves insatiable. The more he indulges it, the shorter the satisfaction lasts and the more severe the hunger becomes. He begins feeding relentlessly, still always craving. Existence again becomes unbearable, but then hope materializes. A blind Sith Lord appears. She has felt his existence like a gaping wound in the Force. The Force, she explains, fuels his hunger, and she will show him how to devour worlds. The Sith and the Force are meaningless to him, but the hunger must be appeased.

Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-craving gift to radical heights – so effectively in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double cross. However, as Nihilus greedily consumes entire planets' life energy, the dark side macerates him even faster. But no matter. Nothing matters except his hunger. Before it devours him totally, Nihilus uses its power to displace his persona into his robes and armor. As his useless body disintegrates, he becomes living primitive intention; at last, the whole of the galaxy becomes food – for Nihilus has become the hunger.

Credit: KOTOR Campaign Guide

Nathema, was not merely extinguished, it was rendered a Void in the Force:

Lord Vitiate orchestrated the sorcery and the planet Mediraas was consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see. When the ritual ended, Lord Vitiate emerged as the only survivor. The pain, energy, and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries. The lifeless planet of Medriaas became a Void in the Force and was erased from history. From that moment forward, the world would forever be known as Nathema, birthplace of the one and only Sith Emperor.

Credit: SWTOR: Encyclopedia

This Void in the Force was felt within the Emperor himself:

As he spoke, the dark circles of his eyes seemed to fill with a swirling red mist, and for a brief instant the Emperor gave Scourge a glimpse of his true self.

Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor’s mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation.

Credit: SWTOR: Revan

The Void in question, was immediately closed upon the Emperor's true death. Indicating that Vitiate's mere existence, even as a spirit, caused the Void in the Force:

The ecological revitalization of Nathema has been nothing short of miraculous. Vibrant plant life has not only taken root but flourished, dramatically altering the planet's once-desolate landscape.

Force-users no longer experience the unsettling "wrongness" that they once felt whenever setting foot on the planet. The air has become fresher, and the weather more dynamic. That this has all occurred since the death of Valkorion cannot be a coincidence, though experts cannot agree on any precise environmental mechanism that could have brought about such an abrupt change.

Credit: Nathema Reborn Codex Entry

Something reiterated here:

Ironically, all of the Zealots still alive owe their survival to their master's death and the subsequent blooming of life on the planet's once-barren surface; otherwise, they would all have starved long ago.

Credit: Zealots Without A Master Codex Entry

So as of the completion of the Nathema Ritual, we have Tenebrae becoming a Void in the Force that hungers for more and more power. Power which he gains, constantly, for a millennia after Nathema:

In return, the Emperor draws on his servant's strength in the Force and body to feed his ever-increasing power, leaving the servants withered and frail.

Credit: SWTOR Encyclopedia

As of Knights of the Old Republic, Vitiate is the primary source of an imbalance in the Force that isn't seen again until the days of Emperor Krayt:

In the Legacy era, there is no balance to the Force. Instead, the dark side of the Force holds sway, and the influence of evil can be felt everywhere. With Sith Lords in every sector and at the heads of Imperial space fleets, the influence of the the dark is stronger than ever, and far more visible. The Sith act overtly, making it clear that they rule the Empire and, by extension, the galaxy. Not since the days of Darth Revan and Darth Malak have the Sith ruled so convincely. The dark side of the Force clouds everything, and the galaxy's future is harder to see than ever before.

Credit: Legacy Campaign Guide

As an aside to this, it's stated that the dark side shrouds the galaxy so intensely that Revan and Bastila Shan couldn't sense the disturbance in the Force caused by the destruction of the Jedi Enclave on Dantooine:

"We should have felt a disturbance in the Force when the attack came. The fact that we did not is a bad sign. I fear the dark side is growing stronger, casting shadows our vision cannot pierce."

Credit: Bastila Shan, Knights of the Old Republic

Infact, the psychic misery of the Galactic Republic was so strong at this time, that the Sith could actually feed upon it:

The Sith seemed to have achieved the victory they had long sought. Less than one hundred Jedi, nearly all of them in hiding, survived the Sith's purge. Many citizens took this unimaginable event as proof that the Force had turned malevolent, or that cosmic balance was nothing more than a story for children. Despair was palpable, and many planets offered only halfhearted and ragged defense against Sith attackers. Planets throughout the slice surrendered, and the Sith fed on the psychic misery of a shattered Republic.

Credit: The Essential Atlas

The Emperor then captures Revan, feeding on his immense powers to fuel his own:

REVAN COULD FEEL THE EMPEROR FEEDING ON HIM, drawing on his power to sate his endless hunger.

Credit: SWTOR Revan

As well as constructing the Dark Temple, where he imprisoned powerful Sith; living and dead, which he could drain from constantly:

The temple became a nexus of dark side energy as the Emperor performed rituals within, drawing strength and knowledge from his captives.

Credit: SWTOR Encyclopedia

Vitiate, as of SWTOR, is stated to be such a supreme powerhouse, that he made the Dread Masters insignificant by comparison:

"The Dread Masters affected Oricon. Even their combined power was insignificant compared to the Emperor."

Credit: The Empire's Wrath, Shadow of Revan

As a matter of fact, it is outright stated by one of their own that Vitiate's power alone was enough to 'control' them, evidently speaking to them telepathically:

"The Emperor was. . . powerful. He alone was worthy. But now he is silent. None can control us."

Credit: The Dread Masters, SWTOR

The Dread Masters are immensely powerful, having harnessed and perfected the Phobis Devices:

Fear is a powerful weapon, and those who wield it can rule the galaxy. The Phobis devices were constructed for just that purpose. Brimming with dark energy, their mere presence was enough to spark crippling horror in the bravest of minds. Many Sith who meditated on the devices were driven mad by their attempt. Only the lost Sith Dread Masters successfully harnessed and perfected the Phobis devices' frightening power.

Credit: Phobis Devices Codex Entry

This power gave the Dread Masters the ability to terraform planets, much in the same way they'd done to Oricon:

"Our ships will deliver our devices across the galaxy; Dromund Kaas, Nar Shaddaa, Coruscant. Populations will be infected and planets overgrown."

Credit: Calphayus, Dread War

As well as driving everyone incurably insane:

"Our research suggests that very few members of this force are willing volunteers; most are former Republic and Imperial personnel whose minds have been irreparably dominated by the power of the Dread Masters. Efforts to question or treat captured members of the Dread Host have been entirely unsuccessful. The constant psychological manipulations of the Dread Masters have rendered their followers both completely loyal and incurably, paranoically insane."

Credit: Master Gnost-Dural

The depth of insanity inflicted is so severe that even non-Force sensitives would take at least ten blaster shots to the chest without feeling any pain:

"He’d passed all the psych tests, resisted every mind-altering device and chemical they could find. Plenty of qualifications... I never got to ask them how things went from bad to nightmarish; he’d spread pieces of them all over the place by the time I got there. The guards were dead, too, but just the normal, murdered kind of dead. I guess they didn’t merit the special treatment, even though they must’ve shot the kid five times apiece. He was just standing there, full of holes, smiling that same shiny kid smile he had when they first brought him in."

Credit: Jonas Balkar, The Search For Oricon

The populations of the planets listed above?

Dromund Kaas:

Over the following centuries, its population grew into the millions–proud Imperials working toward the glory of the Sith and slaves submitting to Imperial will.

Credit: Kaas City Codex Entry

Nar Shaddaa:

85,000,000,000

Credit: The Essential Atlas

Coruscant:

1,000,000,000,000

Credit: Coruscant, Center of the Galaxy

After the Dread War, Tenebrae returns on Yavin IV due to Revan's machinations and attacks the planet of Ziost. It has been recently established that Tenebrae's death wave was not the result of a ritual. Instead, the only ritual Tenebrae ever used in the Sith throneworld's decimation was designed to absorb the death that had occurred as a result. Meaning a death wave that destroyed Ziost's surface, was something Tenebrae as an incorporeal spirit could do of his own power, after having recovered enough from his slumber on Yavin IV.

NOTE: This makes complete sense, as we've already established that Tenebrae in a massively weaker state than his prime by this point, was vastly beyond the scope of Darth Nihilus' powers.

Now fully assuming the mask of Valkorion, Immortal Emperor of Zakuul. Tenebrae is a vastly more powerful Entity than he'd ever been before:

With each rebirth, he grew stronger.

Credit: Valkorion Codex Entry

Something Tenebrae himself reiterates:

"Ziost. The world where everything changed. For me, you... the galaxy."

They (Ziost's inhabitants) died opening my eyes to the truth. I have passed beyond death's reach. Voices... Hands... Children... I no longer require those crude vessels. At long last I am truly free."

Credit: Tenebrae, KOTFE

Meaning that every single thing you read prior to this, is vastly pre-prime.

At this point, Valkorion has achieved the power to face and handily defeat the Outlander, Vaylin and Arcann. Dominating all three, one-by-one, with apparent ease, despite them weilding an incredibly dangerous weapon:

But the same corrupted technology Valkorion used to vanquish his father could also be turned against him, permanently imprisoning his immortal spirit... or obliterating it from existence.

Credit: Dramath's Holocron

Yet, upon the destruction of his spirit, he causes a shockwave in the Force that was felt by Force-users across the galaxy. So strong it threatened to black out a powerhouse such as Satele Shan:

Although each and every one of the Zealots felt Valkorion's death vividly through the Force, all of them refuse to believe that it has actually occurred.

Credit: Zealots Without A Master

Satele personally notes this:

"I felt the destruction of his spirit from half a galaxy away--a shockwave in the Force that ripped through me with such power that I nearly blacked out. I've never felt anything like it before, but I knew instantly what it meant.

At first, I was afraid to believe it was true. But Darth Marr's spirit felt it, too."

Credit: A New Age, KOTET

It's not too late to drop Sheev's fresh corpse and take my hand...

No Caption Provided

39 Comments

39 Comments

Avatar image for richard96
Edited By Richard96

Nice work, although some argued nihilus’ feat is circumstantial

Avatar image for killbilly
Edited By KillBilly

To clarfiy, Galen was not in his prime at the point in the novel where he guided down the ISD along with having just carried out a feat before that point which required far more energy then the ISD feat. Other then that, not a bad thread.

Avatar image for xolthol
Posted By xolthol

Really great thread!!! I will certainly use it during some of my debate.

Avatar image for sithrevenant
Posted By SithRevenant

@richard96: Some can try, but there's sufficient evidence to clarify the feat should someone attempt that here.

Avatar image for sithrevenant
Edited By SithRevenant

@killbilly: It takes place prior to Vader capturing the Rebel leaders and the commencement of the Death Star finale. Any growth he had between those would be marginal in comparison to Nihilus draining planets.

Avatar image for killbilly
Edited By KillBilly

@sithrevenant: That doesn't take into account that he had expended most of his energy prior to accomplishing the feat as I mentioned.

Also, your statement comparing Nihilus's growth to Galen's isn't actually assured given he was able to go from someone on or below Rahm Kota's level as a Force user in the first mission to somebody who could ragdoll Vader by the end of the game. Vader of course having ragdolled Rahm Kota. The growth he undergoes is enormous to say the least and he was in a coma for over half a year in TFU's timeline.

Avatar image for killbilly
Posted By KillBilly

TL;DR: If someone can go from sub Rahm Kota level to pushing Sidious to desperation in less then a few months of time to grow, I'd say a few weeks of growth for that individual could be argued to be be a greater boon then the energy Nihilus consumed.

Avatar image for sithrevenant
Posted By SithRevenant

@killbilly:

Which doesn't account for Nihilus pulling numerous ships out of an incredibly intense gravity well. As opposed to pulling one ship towards the surface.

Galen's ISD feat takes place just before the Death Star. Nihilus' feat takes place prior to draining numerous planets of their Force energy. There's no comparison at all there.

Avatar image for killbilly
Edited By KillBilly

@sithrevenant:Which doesn't account for Nihilus pulling numerous ships out of an incredibly intense gravity well. As opposed to pulling one ship towards the surface.

Sorry but, what does that have to do with anything that I said?

The specifics of Nihilus's feats are ultimately irrelevant because Galen at the point in time he struggled to accomplish a potentially inferior feat wasn't in peak condition.

Galen's ISD feat takes place just before the Death Star. Nihilus' feat takes place prior to draining numerous planets of their Force energy. There's no comparison at all there.

Again, Galen went from sub Rahm Kota to giving Sidious a fight within a few months of growth. Given Sidious even as early as TPM is far ahead of Nihilus, a few weeks of growth for Galen may very well eclipse the energy Nihilus consumed.

Avatar image for killbilly
Edited By KillBilly

This is only logical given Galen is stated to have the potential to be more powerful then any Force user who had ever existed prior to that point in time ( yes, this includes Valkorion ).

"The Apprentice is the photo negative of Luke Skywalker. He's been raised by Darth Vader, and is what Luke would have become if he had joined his father. Vader's not a very nice daddy. This guy has been raised to be a Jedi. When the Jedi use the Force, they respect it and don't overuse it. The bad guys - the Sith - keep testing their limits. Vader discovered this person who had the potential to be the most powerful Force user ever." - Insider 100.

Avatar image for sithrevenant
Edited By SithRevenant

@killbilly: Except there were no weeks, re-read the novel. He goes straight to a meeting of the Rebels, gets tracked to said meeting by Vader, who then captures the leaders and takes them to the Death Star. With Galen in pursuit.

Whatever power growth he had would've been marginal. Each time Nihilus feeds his power/hunger grows exponentionally. Each time, it gets more and more extensive. His power growth would've been enormous in magnitude, one could even go as far as to say his power doubled, or more. Not even counting for the psychic energies across the Republic he could feed from.

That's why he's holding his ship together with sheer force of will and had the power to destroy Citadel Station by the time of Telos IV.

Avatar image for killbilly
Edited By KillBilly

@sithrevenant: Except there were no weeks, re-read the novel. He goes straight to a meeting of the Rebels, gets tracked to said meeting by Vader, who then captures the leaders and takes them to the Death Star. With Galen in pursuit.

Everything I'm about to quote comes straight from the novel and occurs directly after Galen's mission to Raxus Prime.

"Their mission was to wait for word to come from Bail Organa, confirming that everyone involved could meet at last at a location that was for the moment kept determinedly vague. The Rogue Shadow had hopped systems three times at her instigation in the previous week, staying one step ahead of an imagined-but all too possible-pursuit.

-

"Couldn't we just go to Corellia and wait for word to come from there?" she asked Kota on the seventh day. "I mean, that's where the meeting's going to be held. It doesn't take an idiot to work that out, if Bel Iblis is going to be involved."

"All the more reason for us not to be there, then," the ex-Jedi told her. "If we're spotted in the area, it'll spook everyone."

-

On the eighth day Starkiller called for her and PROXY to join him in the meditation chamber." - The Force Unleashed.

8 days plus the travel time necessary to get to Correllia from Rhommamool.

At the very least, the Rogue Shadow would have to travel the following distance to get from Rhommamool to Correlia since Rhommamool is located in the Expansion Region.

No Caption Provided

I have to say. I can't take you quite as seriously as before knowing you're willing to cite things you're not sure on as facts. That's not meant as an insult, more as advice to you for future interactions.

Avatar image for killbilly
Edited By KillBilly

And again, how much they grew comparatively during these respective time frames is ultimately moot when the feats you're using to compare the two fails to take into account the surrounding context. Context like the state the characters were in when they carried out their feats. :/

Avatar image for sithrevenant
Posted By SithRevenant

@killbilly: You said weeks, which you just proved I was right to say was wrong. Given the Rogue Shadow has a class 0.5 hyperdrive, then it's going to take a day.

9 days of completely speculative power growth is absolutely insignificant compared to draining numerous planets of life and Force energy. It's not even debatable.

Avatar image for sithrevenant
Posted By SithRevenant

@killbilly: The context being that Nihilus was on a shattered planet that was constantly suffering under a crushing gravity well.

The feat itself consists of numerous cruisers and capital ships being pulled against an extremely powerful gravity well.

So not only is Nihilus facing far graver circumstances due to the environment, but his feat is much better.

And as I have pointed out, Nihilus' power multiplied.

Avatar image for killbilly
Edited By KillBilly

@sithrevenant:You said weeks, which you just proved I was right to say was wrong. Given the Rogue Shadow has a class 0.5 hyperdrive, then it's going to take a day.

You are aware that weeks can be used to refer to a period time greater then a week, correct? Regardless, that wouldn't change that you made the claim that the Rogue Shadow traveled directly from Raxus Prime to Correllia which, as I showed above, is blatantly false.

"Ancient Power: Except there were no weeks, re-read the novel. He goes straight to a meeting of the Rebels"

9 days of completely speculative power growth

A few things to address here.

1. Galen is stated to be growing constantly throughout the novel.

"The dark side rushed through him, made him strong and resilient. He felt more powerful than he ever had before." - The Force Unleashed

-

"All thought ceased; his connection to the Force became deeper than it ever had been before." - The Force Unleashed

-

"I’m not wearing out,” he said. “The moorings were tough, but I feel stronger than ever now. It gets easier, I think, the harder you try. The Force is stronger than anything we can imagine. We’re the ones who limit it, not the other way around.” - The Force Unleashed

2. Galen's potential surpasses the realized power of both Valkorion and TFU Sidious.

"The Apprentice is the photo negative of Luke Skywalker. He's been raised by Darth Vader, and is what Luke would have become if he had joined his father. Vader's not a very nice daddy. This guy has been raised to be a Jedi. When the Jedi use the Force, they respect it and don't overuse it. The bad guys - the Sith - keep testing their limits. Vader discovered this person who had the potential to be the most powerful Force user ever." - Insider 100.

3. It is unlikely that Galen achieved this potential as of the end of the TFU novel ( if you disagree we can discuss this ).

Assuming you agree with 3, there is no reason for Galen to suddenly stop growing in power. None that I'm aware of anyways. If you have a suggestion as to why that would be, I'm all ears.

9 days of growth is absolutely insignificant compared to draining numerous planets of life and Force energy. It's not even debatable.

Perhaps this'll help you understand the comparison a bit better.

1. 3 months of growth takes an individual from sub Kota to capable of challenging TFU Sidious.

2. 3 months is equivalent to 90 days.

3. 9 days is 1/10 ( or 10% ) of 90 days.

4. As a result, it would be fair to assume that 10% of the gap that exists between a sub Kota tier combatant and someone capable of challenging Sidious was covered in this timespan.

Note: Personally, I believe saying it was ONLY 10% to be overly generous when one considers that Galen has a psychological breakthrough during this point in time which allowed him to utilize abilities that he had been unable to prior.

-

The question then becomes what you feel is worth more.

10% of the gap between a sub Kota tier combtant and a combatant capable of challenging Sidious or the energy which Nihilus drained. While I can appreciate you believing the latter is superior, I don't believe it is "not even debatable" as you claim.

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Edited By KillBilly

@sithrevenant: The context being that Nihilus was on a shattered planet that was constantly suffering under a crushing gravity well.

I was actually referring to the context surrounding Marek's own feat. I would've thought this would have been obvious given I mentioned it in an earlier post. As mentioned, given Marek had expended the vast majority of his energy prior to accomplishing the ISD feat, it can't be used to draw a parallel between Nihilus and himself.

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Posted By SithRevenant

@killbilly: You said 'weeks' which in general vernacular means exactly what it says on the tin. Oh and, it certainly wasn't three months, given the six months that he spends inert.

Oh and, that statement in Insider on its face is clearly incorrect given Anakin is canonically stated to have the potential of the Ones. Not to mention, Nihilus' state of being renders Force potential irrelevant. The same can be said for Valkorion, naturally.

I'm still not seeing how you think this potential compares to a being whose power goes from feeding on a single person to the populations of entire planets. And if Traya is to be believed, left unchecked too long, his power would eventually reach solar system levels.

I know what context you're referring to. But your analogy of Kota to Sheev is just as aptly applied for Nihilus on Malachor to Nihilus in his prime. Yet he isn't just experiencing 10% of his growth, he's experiencing almost all of it.

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Edited By KillBilly

@sithrevenant: You said 'weeks' which in general vernacular means exactly what it says on the tin.

That's fair enough, I can see where the confusion would have stemmed from. However that doesn't change you made the claim that the Rogue Shadow traveled directly from Raxus Prime to Correllia which, as I showed above, is blatantly false.

"Ancient Power: Except there were no weeks, re-read the novel. He goes straight to a meeting of the Rebels"

Oh and, it certainly wasn't three months, given the six months that he spends inert.

Are you suggesting that he somehow grew as a Force user whilst inert? Or are you saying that it's LESS then 3 months? If the latter, you understand that this only further backs up my point, correct?

Oh and, that statement in Insider on its face is clearly incorrect given Anakin is canonically stated to have the potential of the Ones.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how that has to do with anything. The quote doesn't state that Galen had greater potential then Anakin. It simply states that he had the potential to be the most powerful Force user up to his point in time ( I.E. greater then the likes of TFU Sidious or Valkorion ).

Not to mention, Nihilus' state of being renders Force potential irrelevant. The same can be said for Valkorion, naturally.

Not really following your line of though tbh. The quote didn't reference Galen's potential in comparison to other Force user's potential. It references his potential to surpass all other Force user's in power.

I'm still not seeing how you think this potential compares to a being whose power goes from feeding on a single person to the populations of entire planets. And if Traya is to be believed, left unchecked too long, his power would eventually reach solar system levels.

Per Traya's own creator she's an unreliable source.

I know what context you're referring to. But your analogy of Kota to Sheev is just as aptly applied for Nihilus on Malachor to Nihilus in his prime.

I would personally have to disagree. I think the gap between Kota and Sheev is far greater then the one between Malachor Nihilus and Nihilus in his prime.

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Posted By KillBilly

And nowhere did you address Galen expending most of his energy prior to guiding down the ISD making any comparison between Nihilus and Galen based on similar feats moot.

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Posted By SithRevenant

@killbilly:

I wasn't really taking into account a pit stop on the way there, though. Because I don't consider it all that relevant. Though if you want to argue it is, that's your prerogative.

Because here's the thing, those six months had events that occur on either end of them. They actually have an enormous effect on Marek's power. But it's not because of growth via potential. It's a mindset entered upon surviving Vader's betrayal. Infact, he outright states that the power he felt after the fact made everything he had done prior to said betrayal irrelevant.

So he's not just going from Kota to Sheev in three months, it's a considerably more complex growth in mindset that gives him quite possibly the biggest amount of growth in the entire novel.

So I am afraid those 9 days, from my point of view, most certainly do not even begin to cover draining numerous planets of all life and energy, an exponential growth rate that only gets more and more severe as his power grows.

As far as Galen having used the Force heavily prior to this goes, given that in the feat itself it is stated that he'd reached further into his Force reserves than ever before, and went even further, I'm not sure what else this means bar Galen having massive Force reserves.

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Edited By KillBilly

@sithrevenant: I wasn't really taking into account a pit stop on the way there, though. Because I don't consider it all that relevant.

It's fine.

Because here's the thing, those six months had events that occur on either end of them. They actually have an enormous effect on Marek's power. But it's not because of growth via potential. It's a mindset entered upon surviving Vader's betrayal.

I actually agree with this.

Infact, he outright states that the power he felt after the fact made everything he had done prior to said betrayal irrelevant.

This was only once he had entered a state of Oneness.

So he's not just going from Kota to Sheev in three months, it's a considerably more complex growth in mindset that gives him quite possibly the biggest amount of growth in the entire novel.

Again, I'm not necessarily disagreeing here. Where I think our views begin to depart is exactly which instances caused the most growth. Personally, I think it was his second betrayal by Vader that caused the most profound growth as opposed to the first. Something indicated by him being able to use abilities that he had been unable to prior to that point.

So I am afraid those 9 days, from my point of view, most certainly do not even begin to cover draining numerous planets of all life and energy, an exponential growth rate that only gets more and more severe as his power grows.

You're going to have to explain the "an exponential growth rate that only gets more and more severe as his power grows" bit of that to me tbh.

As far as Galen having used the Force heavily prior to this goes, given that in the feat itself it is stated that he'd reached further into his Force reserves than ever before, and went even further, I'm not sure what else this means bar Galen having massive Force reserves.

I mean, he literally destroyed the supports of a structure tall enough that it stretched into orbit in a previous mission. I assume that he was forced to reach into his reserves to accomplish the feat as a result of having used up most of his energy prior to that point. That's the only interpretation that makes sense given the context and prior events.

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Posted By SithRevenant

@killbilly: I'm glad we're beginning to expand on this.

Nihilus' hunger and power are one in the same, it gets stronger and more demanding each time he feeds:

Darth Nihilus is literally a destroyer of worlds, powered by an insatiable hunger that drives him to consume greater and greater populations.

Credit: Power Beyond Belief: Using Ultra-Powerful Sith Lords In Saga Edition

Something explained quite thoroughly here:

While illness cannibalizes his body, a vast emptiness devours his humanity. Then, when all seems lost, he discovers that his emptiness hungered. The first time, he fed it unconsciously. Draining another being's life is frightening, nauseating, but for a euphoric moment, the memories, the illness, the hunger disappeared.

But it proves insatiable. The more he indulges it, the shorter the satisfaction lasts and the more severe the hunger becomes. He begins feeding relentlessly, still always craving. Existence again becomes unbearable, but then hope materializes. A blind Sith Lord appears. She has felt his existence like a gaping wound in the Force. The Force, she explains, fuels his hunger, and she will show him how to devour worlds. The Sith and the Force are meaningless to him, but the hunger must be appeased.

Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-craving gift to radical heights – so effectively in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double cross. However, as Nihilus greedily consumes entire planets' life energy, the dark side macerates him even faster. But no matter. Nothing matters except his hunger. Before it devours him totally, Nihilus uses its power to displace his persona into his robes and armor. As his useless body disintegrates, he becomes living primitive intention; at last, the whole of the galaxy becomes food – for Nihilus has become the hunger.

Ousting Traya with Darth Sion's help, Nihilus binges on the Force, nearly extinguishing the Jedi forever at Katarr.

Credit: KOTOR Campaign Guide

It's a loop of hunger, fuel, power and hunger again. It was only getting more and more drastic in scale:

"He cares nothing for the Sith or its teachings, or the Jedi. And when the Jedi are dead, he will feed on the galaxy, the Republic, and eventually, consume the Sith as well."

Credit: Darth Traya, KOTOR 2

Visas Marr concurs:

"Perhaps he will grow strong enough to eradicate all life, merely with his presence."

Credit: Visas Marr, KOTOR 2

By the time of Telos IV, it's said that he can destroy Citadel Station:

"Then her lies will mean the planet's destruction, he will destroy all of Telos. He will turn it to fire again and crush the planet beneath him. He will devour them all, murder them all."

"If there are no Jedi here, then my Lord cannot feed his hunger. He will destroy the planet, the station, he will cleanse it of life. Even if the people below are not Force Sensitive, the small amount he can feed on from the mass destruction of the station, and the life of the planet, will sustain him a while longer."

Credit: Visas Marr and Colonel Tobin, KOTOR 2

As far as I see it, that is all pretty clear cut, and renders any other context regarding the two feats irrelevant. That's how vast his power increase from Malachor V to Telos IV is.

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Edited By KillBilly

@SithRevenant I'll read it over tomorrow. I'll be going on a trip from this Sunday to the next so if I don't respond within a week it's because my wifi is spotty.

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Posted By Freedon_nadd_1

Vitiate enacts the Ritual of Nathema, becoming multiple times more powerful:

The plan was both horrifying and brilliant. In addition to becoming more powerful than Meetra could imagine, Vitiate could blame the extinction of his homeworld on the Jedi, further panicking the remaining Sith worlds.

This places Vitiate above Darth Nihilus, as of the completion of the Nathema Ritual. Darth Nihilus being an unquestionably more powerful being than even a powerhouse such as Galen Marek, by comparison of telekinetic feats:

Ancient Power - we have already been through this multiple times. Meetra merely makes a statement relative to Vitiate's own power after the Nathema Ritual. She isn't comparing Vitiate's power to Nihilus' or anyone else's.

Nihilus pulled the Ravager, and other ships in his fleet, out of the gravity well of Malachor V:

"This ship, is it his weakness? It should not exist, yet it cruises the darkness between the stars. He tore it from the mass shadows of Malachor, along with his fleet, that is a measure of his power."

Credit: Colonel Tobin, KOTOR 2

NOTE: The circumstances surrounding this are insane given the following:

The storms of Malachor V are enough to draw down even the strongest of ships. Once on the surface, there is little chance of escape.

And that's exactly the reason why you shouldn't use Nihilus as indicative for Vitiate's power. Why? Because Nihilus drained more worlds than Vitiate did(Vitiate drained only two)

So, it's really stupid to claim Vitiate superiority over Nihilus because of that.

"Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-craving gift to radical heights – so effectively in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double cross. However, as Nihilus greedily consumes entire planets' life energy, the dark side macerates him even faster. But no matter. Nothing matters except his hunger. Before it devours him totally, Nihilus uses its power to displace his persona into his robes and armor. As his useless body disintegrates, he becomes living primitive intention; at last, the whole of the galaxy becomes food – for Nihilus has become the hunger."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

This particular text counters your argument/s. Nihilus began draining planets after he and Sion betrayed Traya. That means Nihilus' TK'ing the Ravager was way before draining planets. That alone puts him way above Vitiate(a fully fed Nihilus that is, of course)

Congratulations. You just showed what a "Force" of nature Darth Nihilus is.

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Posted By SithRevenant

@freedon_nadd_1: You're literally just inventing a reason to dismiss a perfectly obvious quote. There are numerous other quotes that state Vitiate is absolutely the most powerful Force-user the galaxy's ever seen by TOR. Don't turn my blog post into another of your rants.

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Posted By Freedon_nadd_1

Really? Is that all?

No counter? Nothing?

I pointed a mistake in your thread and you tell me: "sources"?

There are none, IIRC. There is only some absolute accolades that are pre or post-Nihilus.

I don't rant here. But it irks me when people use "bad" sources to present their argument.

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Posted By Freedon_nadd_1

Logic alone dictates that Nihilus>Vitiate because he consumed more planets than Vitiate did(after all, you saw the massive benefits Vitiate had only from those draining two planets). And if his TK feat took place before draining planets feat, then Nihilus is destruction incarnate.

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Edited By KillBilly

@sithrevenant: Unfortunately, the quotes you posted are character statements that, even if true, would still place him beneath Vitiate who himself is beneath a version of Sidious decades prior to TFU. As a result, the context that Galen had exhausted most of his energy prior to struggling to accomplish a feat that Nihilus would've been capable of remains relevant.

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Posted By SithRevenant

@killbilly: Chris Avellone himself confirmed their veracity. Infact, they underestimated the scope of his power if anything as is confirmed by the script. Vitiate is not beneath Sidious when he himself was never a real Sith, as is confirmed by numerous sources and authorities on the matter.

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Edited By KillBilly

@sithrevenant: Chris Avellone has no authority on continuity or the validity of character statements.

The sources you're referencing would either have to be a relevant member of the Lucasfilm team such as Leeland Chee or Lucas himself considering third person sources outright state that Sidious is a Sith.

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Posted By SithRevenant

@killbilly: Chris Avellone absolutely has the authority to clarify statements he wrote in a project that he was both Head Writer and Lead Director for.

Vitiate wasn't a Sith, I'm not referring to Sheev.

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Edited By KillBilly

@sithrevenant: He can give his opinion on it, sure. Doesn't mean his interpretation has any more authority then anybody else after the work he's submitted was approved.

Vitiate is referred to as a Sith in third person sources just as Sidious is.

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Posted By SithRevenant

@killbilly: Except for the fact that character fallibility is the only argument to be made here, and yet both Avellone and other sources confirm the veracity of her statements.

Vitiate's identity as a Sith is fraudulent as confirmed by the character himself and both the Lead Writer Hall Hood and the Creative Director Charles Boyd of BioWare Austin. He's no more Sith than Plagueis is a businessman by the name of Hego Damask.

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Posted By KillBilly

@sithrevenant: I've already explained why Avellone's statement are irrelevant. What are these "other sources" you're referring to?

Plagueis was both a businessman and went by the name "Hego Damask" but that's neither here nor there. Whatever Tenebrae's creed or belief he was apparently considered to be a Sith during the events of SWTOR since he's referred to as such by third person sources.

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Posted By SithRevenant

@killbilly: No, you've made the claim that he's irrelevant, yet no one else in SW debating follows that line of logic, including myself. Visas Marr's claims are both verified by KOTOR 2's script and the quest text in the game itself.

Sources that are both out-of-date and have been retconned by newer ones. BioWare has even retconned the Nathema Ritual. Tenebrae's identity crisis isn't nearly the largest one.

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Edited By KillBilly

@sithrevenant: Please provide proof for your claim that an author has authority over continuity after LFL has approved their work to be apart of continuity...

Scripts are not apart of continuity.

Quest text? Going to need you to clarify there.

Please provide the source that you believe serves as a "retcon."

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Posted By Freedon_nadd_1

AP wants to say that authors have "over" authority on their creations whether what Chee or anyone else aays