Wait a minute, so he won against Aquaman, yet just a mid-tier? Beating Aquaman is definitely more than being mid-tier for sure.

Aquaman is mid tier

Call me when mid-tiers start doing this Superman.

Or stalemating Wonder Woman.

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Or do this to Diana.

He has even went toe to toe with Martian Manhunter.

@_kingoflatveria: @lord_spectrum:You can argue this in the thread. Darth Vader vs New 52 Aquaman

This seems like a fun idea. Might do one of these for Thanos

He also lost to the Sinister Six. I hardly think he would be classed as a high tier character if he is losing to them.

You should. Godzilla is my last segment.

He lost to SS, because of their HAX, while Aquaman is not really HAX type, he is more straightforward type and for sure Arthur is above mid-tier given his feats.

@lord_spectrum:

Street level hax alone really shouldn't be enough to deal with a high tier TBH (Anime/manga not included). I suppose you could flip it and say Aquaman couldn't deal with Vader's hax? I mean, if we are going down the road that hax can beat people from a higher tier. I would say that Arthur has enough low showings that people may rate him lower than he is (or possibly the reverse, him being rated slightly higher). As a non Aquaman expert it is difficult for me to really say. Maybe bias played a role.

@old_blighty:

Street level hax alone really shouldn't be enough to deal with a high tier TBH (Anime/manga not included).

To be fair that depends on what kind of HAX, and given it is mostly Sandman and Electro, it is somewhat understandable given their certain powers.

I suppose you could flip it and say Aquaman couldn't deal with Vader's hax?

Maybe, not well versed in Vader's HAX, but i'll trust your word, but IMO if character has HAX to beat higher tier character, then he/she should be classified on higher tier as well.

I mean, if we are going down the road that hax can beat people from a higher tier.

Yep, and as i mentioned previously HAX or Raw power it doesn't matter, if character can beat higher tier one, then he/she should be classified in the same class as well.

I would say that Arthur has enough low showings that people may rate him lower than he is (or possibly the reverse, him being rated slightly higher).

When it comes to low showings every character has that, and the more comic appearances character has, the more low showings, i pretty sure you can see that Superman has lots of low showings way more than Aquaman.

As a non Aquaman expert it is difficult for me to really say. Maybe bias played a role.

I am not Aquaman expert, just a guy who reads his comics.

I don't think bias played a role here in this case.

Food research and analysis I agree Impressive indeed

Food research and analysis I agree Impressive indeed

@lord_spectrum:

To be fair that depends on what kind of HAX, and given it is mostly Sandman

I'm having AOTC flashbacks. I think it depends where the fight takes place. Vader could end him with combustion attacks, or just black him with his lightsaber (Sandman is a lot slower than Vader, and each block would reduce his size). I think Vader can actually make a shield by spinning his lightsaber aswell, so he could (arguably) just hold him off that way while he deals with other.

and Electro, it is somewhat understandable given their certain powers

Funnily enough; Vader actually has a higher resistance to lightning than most. Also he could absorb the lightning with tutaminis or his lightsaber. \The only issue would be killing Electro. Depending on the version, he could (arguably) just snap his neck, or wait for his energy to deplete.

Maybe, not well versed in Vader's HAX, but i'll trust your word,

Again, I was just spitballing. I honestly don't know enough about Arthur to say he could be beat through hax alone. Although, maybe the morals angle influenced peoples votes. I mean, I doubt a lot of Arthurs higher feats were used on random enemies, or when he was totally calm. Perhaps if he were blood lusted people would have voted differently.

but IMO if character has HAX to beat higher tier character, then he/she should be classified on higher tier as well.

I'm not sure I agree here. A high tier could have all their skill points in one tree, if you understand my meaning. An average telepath could beat someone who could lift suns, if said someone had no telepathic defence. Likewise, a godtier telepath could be killed by a street leveller, if the street leveller was immune to telepathy.

Yep, and as i mentioned previously HAX or Raw power it doesn't matter, if character can beat higher tier one, then he/she should be classified in the same class as well.

Again, I think this could simply come down to unfortunate match ups.

When it comes to low showings every character has that, and the more comic appearances character has, the more low showings, i pretty sure you can see that Superman has lots of low showings way more than Aquaman.

I agree with you to an extent, but I think we are removing popularity from the equation. A lot more people on the vine would know Aquaman from story arcs outside his magazine, or things they've heard. Everyone knows Superman. The guy has like a dozen films and half a dozen TV shows outside his many comics. I mean, the term Kryptonite has become synonymous with weakness. That's huge.

I am not Aquaman expert, just a guy who reads his comics.

Then you still likely knew more than a lot of those who voted.

I don't think bias played a role here in this case.

I would never rule out bias, but maybe I'm more cynical than yourself.

@old_blighty:

@lord_spectrum:

Sandman can produce sand? Damn, didn't know that. Do you have any scans of this? Seems odd he loses as much as he does. He would essentially have high end healing factor, but nearly impossible (elements excluded) to hurt. As for Electro, does he actually fight that tactically? I mean, there are lots of characters with powers above their supposed tier (I think molecule man was like this for a while), but lack the imagination/intelligence to use them effectively.

@old_blighty:

Sandman can produce sand? Damn, didn't know that. Do you have any scans of this?

http://i.imgur.com/HMWGvqu.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/GvNxCdc.jpg

Seems odd he loses as much as he does. He would essentially have high end healing factor, but nearly impossible (elements excluded) to hurt.

He is a Spider-Man villain, he must be incompetent for the sake of the story.

As for Electro, does he actually fight that tactically?

That honestly depends, in his early incarnations he was not really, though he did have some minor showings showcasing that, but that's inconsistent, but in later eras after some science talk from Doc Ock in prison, he learned bunch of new tricks, he can now manipulate magnetic fields to levitate objects (as in like TK) and himself or form magnetic forcefields, he can even absorb light energy more specifically microwaves, can turn turn into energy form and etc... basically he became more tactical and smarter with his powers as the time went on, so if plot doesn't hinder him, he should act more logical.

I mean, there are lots of characters with powers above their supposed tier (I think molecule man was like this for a while), but lack the imagination/intelligence to use them effectively.

Yep, Electro suffers from that as well, not as much lately but stilll suffers.

@lord_spectrum: A mid tier has done that.

@lord_spectrum:

Are you sure that's proof of him producing sand? The first scan seems to be him just increasing his density (although, the scan doesn't seem to make any sense TBH). The second scan doesn't show him producing sand, it just shows him as a huge version of himself. Without an earlier scan, it could be argued that he just incorporated sand into his body. Electro sounds like he could be an issue, assuming he can heal. If he cant, a TK snap could be argued.

It does occur to me that the Sinister Six could be its own downfall. I think if Vader uses any explosives thrown by Hobgobling (was it Hobgoblin, or Green Goblin?), he could take Sandman out. He could arguably use the force to influence Rhino, who is very stupid. And everyone with the exception of Electro could be killed with a force choke. I can understand how it is a hard fight though. A lot of variables.

Has done what? Send Superman flying with a pain expression on his face, stalemate Wonder Woman, and somewhat overpower her, fight toe to toe against pissed off MMH and not get stomped?

Those feats are beyond mid-tier.

@lord_spectrum: Yep.

Well WW is a mid tier too. You don't need to be a high tier to hurt a high tier.

@old_blighty:

Are you sure that's proof of him producing sand? The first scan seems to be him just increasing his density (although, the scan doesn't seem to make any sense TBH).

Well, he did mention that his mass became more, so yes it is a producing feat. As for the explanation, remember it was classic era, the explanation were weird as hell, so ignore the mechanism and focus on the second ie mass part.

The second scan doesn't show him producing sand, it just shows him as a huge version of himself. Without an earlier scan, it could be argued that he just incorporated sand into his body.

There is no sand in New York though.

Electro sounds like he could be an issue, assuming he can heal. If he cant, a TK snap could be argued.

A TK snap against someone who can counter it with Magnetic Fields and turning into lightning form, i don't think it would be usefull in Electro's case.

It does occur to me that the Sinister Six could be its own downfall. I think if Vader uses any explosives thrown by Hobgobling (was it Hobgoblin, or Green Goblin?), he could take Sandman out.

Sandman can reform though, you need to use water or intense heat to turn him into glass if you don't want him to reform.

He could arguably use the force to influence Rhino, who is very stupid.

That's where Electro comes though, during his fight with Nate Grey (omega level telepath, above Jean Grey and Xavier), he absorbed his telepathic energies, he can do the same to Vader.

And everyone with the exception of Electro could be killed with a force choke.

Maybe.

I can understand how it is a hard fight though. A lot of variables.

Yep.

@lord_spectrum:

Electro can absorb telepathic energies? I swear, I look away for five minutes (or many, many years, in this case) and Electro gets all the powers.

WW.....a mid-tier.....you gotta be kidding, lol, have you actually seen her feats?

And yes, you don't need to be high-tier to hurt high-tier if you have HAX, but mid-tier like Iron Man can't hurt Superman or send him flying with pain on his face with just physicals, Aquaman and Diana can, they are far from being mid-tier.

And not only that Aquaman is strong enough to go toe to toe with Martian Manhunter, that's above mid-tier, by default.

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Gallery

More like writers sometimes like to play with powers and potential. :D

@lord_spectrum: Hurt by bullets, needed to be protected from a nuke, hammered by Aquaman.

No, not really. Colossus, a mid tier brick, can hurt high tiers like Juggs.

Yeah, but underwater I also think Aquaman is a low high tier.

Aquaman should have beaten him.

@old_blighty: Did you just call the SS street tiers? Sandman himself was taking on the FF and the Hulk back in the day, he could even take on the Thing hand to hand.

Not only that but Doc Ock fought Iron Man, Mysterio She Hulk (and he messed with teams of heroes with prep), Rhino grey and classic Hulk and the Thing and Electro was stated to have Megneto level potential IIRC. Only one 100% street is Norman but he is also the only one who isn't just a thug (and Mysterio I guess).

@king_hellstorm:

Hurt by bullets,

She doesn't have piercing durability, but has good blunt force durability, i mean you should already know that, that's the basics of her powerset.

needed to be protected from a nuke,

Superman was heavily damaged by the same nuke, your point?

hammered by Aquaman.

Who is just as strong as her, if not stronger, can send Superman flying with pain on his face, and if you have actually seen my scans, he gave decent fight to Jonnz, as well as has other decent feats.

No, not really. Colossus, a mid tier brick, can hurt high tiers like Juggs.

Show me a single instance of Colossus doing so, he has never done so IIRC, and if you mean their recent fight, remember just because he throwed him back by kinetic force, doesn't mean he was damaged or in pain like Aquaman did to Superman, where we clearly are seen that the punch did affect Superman, unlike in Colossus vs Juggs.

Yeah, but underwater I also think Aquaman is a low high tier.

And? The underwater part is arguable.

But anyways, he has other feats as well, - damaged and probably KO's an opponent, who was beating up Superman.

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@king_hellstorm:

and Electro was stated to have Megneto level potential IIRC.

Not really, during his interaction with Magneto, Erik wanted to recruit him, because he had practically same powers as Mags, but given that Magneto doesn't recruit every electromagnetic left and right, i would say he is unique among them.

@lord_spectrum: I do. Doesn't make it excusable though, since she is a brick.

Yep. Bad showing for them both but still a bad showing for WW.

He is stronger underwater and knocking Supes back doesn't mean anyone he fights is a high tier. And if she is a high tierm she is a glass canon.

On mobile so here

https://i.imgur.com/M2EuxOW_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

He also scratched Juggs' helmet in Orginal Sin IIRC.

And his feats underwater are seperate from his feats on land.

Where is the scan after? Cause Supes lands a siilar blow on Mammoth's chest earlier and that did nothing,

@lord_spectrum: He also broke free of Mags' power, at least that is what he said he did.

@king_hellstorm:

You are right, the majority are above street level (or at the higher end of street). I guess I just forget because of all the kicking's they've taken from Spider-Man.

@old_blighty: Well.......Spidey is herald level according to Firelord so....

@king_hellstorm:

That comic still makes me laugh.

EDIT

Did they ever retcon it, so it made sense? I mean, they do that kind of thing with Doom all the time (even when it really wouldn't have made sense).

@old_blighty: Nah, it's legit still AFAIK. They actually tried to give a reason in comic.

@king_hellstorm:

I do. Doesn't make it excusable though, since she is a brick.

And? Does it negate the fact that her other forms of durability are high? No, it doesn't.

Yep. Bad showing for them both but still a bad showing for WW.

As well as a bad showing for Superman, if it can hurt Supes it can hurt WW definitely and worse.

He is stronger underwater

That's arguable, there is no source stating that actually, the only thing being underwater boosts is his healing factor, his strength and durability were not stated to be amped.

and knocking Supes back doesn't mean anyone he fights is a high tier.

Given that Superman was not seen later for some pages and was actually in pain given his face expression, that's still a good feat regardless.

And if she is a high tierm she is a glass canon.

In piercing durability, yeah, in other forms, no.

On mobile so here

https://i.imgur.com/M2EuxOW_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

So where is the damage? Lol, looks like Colossus punches Juggs who is in fear as seen from his face expression, but anyways here is their full interaction from that comic, as you can see he never harmed Juggs in that issue.

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Scan 1-2 is the first attacks of Colossus which do nothing to Juggy, Scan 3-4 are continuation of your posted scan, which showcase that his attack did no damage.

He also scratched Juggs' helmet in Orginal Sin IIRC.

Cool, except IIRC he was powered up by Cull Borson's hammer, not his Ruby Gem.

And his feats underwater are seperate from his feats on land.

Again, that's arguable, read above.

Where is the scan after? Cause Supes lands a siilar blow on Mammoth's chest earlier and that did nothing,

That's it pretty much.

As for the chest attack that is scan 4.

Magneto was not really trying that hard, plus Electro simply destroyed the machinery, even if it was under Mag's control, doesn't mean that machinery is durable.

@lord_spectrum: I will get to you tomorrow, too sleepy atm.

How do the results mean anything when barely anything was discussed?

Vader beating War Machine yet losing to the S6 is somewhat hilarious since the two most powerful members of the Six were sent running by Pepper Potts without her armor on.

The main arguments was Force Choke through the armor. Something that may or may not happen vs Sandman and Electro on same team.

True, numbers give the Six an advantage if only to keep Vader on his toes while Sandman and Electro use more esoteric abilities, but War Machine also has forcefields, and depending on the armor, camouflage and even phasing. I just consider Rhodey by himself a tougher fight than the combined Six.

@morpheus_: Has warmachine forcefields stop TK that also by pass forcefields of Star Destroyers and deflector shields of Ships?

He's legit high Meta at the very least. His telekinesis, barrier feats, and durability are well beyond street tier

Does he always win the battles he's already been in? Nope. There's plenty of fights where he's lost. On ComicVine, though? Most of them, yeah. But that's because he's not really placed up against as powerful or more powerful characters. For example: if Vader was combating say, Superman, he'd probably lose hard. Thor would be another nifty battle where Vader would lose.

Unsure on him beating Aquaman personally, other than that seems fair enough.

@lord_spectrum:

And? Does it negate the fact that her other forms of durability are high? No, it doesn't.

Nope, but her other showings do (Aquaman would be blunt and nuke would be energy).

As well as a bad showing for Superman, if it can hurt Supes it can hurt WW definitely and worse.

That's not how nukes work. That nuke was stated to be as powerful as a powerful real world one, that's it and WW couldn't take it.

That's arguable, there is no source stating that actually, the only thing being underwater boosts is his healing factor, his strength and durability were not stated to be amped.

Look at his feats, on water he fights MMH. On land he gets a few hits in on some high tiers.

Given that Superman was not seen later for some pages and was actually in pain given his face expression, that's still a good feat regardless.

No doubt. But that alone doesn't make him a high tier, given that his other showings aren't as impressive (unless he did KO Mammoth).

So where is the damage? Lol, looks like Colossus punches Juggs who is in fear as seen from his face expression, but anyways here is their full interaction from that comic, as you can see he never harmed Juggs in that issue.

Juggs was knocked off his feet twice there. How else would they showcase damage? In that time period facial expressions was not too advanced.

Scan 1-2 is the first attacks of Colossus which do nothing to Juggy, Scan 3-4 are continuation of your posted scan, which showcase that his attack did no damage.

He knocked Juggs off his feet, that is hardly nothing. But if you really want some damage to be shown, look at when he fought Glads (back when he was more consistent).

Gallery

AT the last scan there are clearly bruises on Glads' body. And that is just Colossus, another mid tier brick in the form of the Thing has tons of feats of hurting high tiers (I mean he was Hulk's rival for a while).

Gallery

Here he is knocking Hyperion and Thor back a long distance, draws blood from WWH and KOs the Hulk.

Cool, except IIRC he was powered up by Cull Borson's hammer, not his Ruby Gem.

Both versions are high tier, are they not?

Again, that's arguable, read above.

It is a grey area, but I believe that based on evidence and history Aquaman gets an amp.

That's it pretty much.

As for the chest attack that is scan 4.

Well then since we don't know what happened, this is basically the Juggs and Colossus scan.

Magneto was not really trying that hard, plus Electro simply destroyed the machinery, even if it was under Mag's control, doesn't mean that machinery is durable.

True. Still really impressive for a street tier.

Lmfao at Vader losing to the Sinister Six, but winning against War Machine or Aquaman. That just made my day.

@lord_spectrum said:

@king_hellstorm:

Hurt by bullets,

She doesn't have piercing durability, but has good blunt force durability, i mean you should already know that, that's the basics of her powerset.

needed to be protected from a nuke,

Superman was heavily damaged by the same nuke, your point?

hammered by Aquaman.

Who is just as strong as her, if not stronger, can send Superman flying with pain on his face, and if you have actually seen my scans, he gave decent fight to Jonnz, as well as has other decent feats.

No, not really. Colossus, a mid tier brick, can hurt high tiers like Juggs.

Show me a single instance of Colossus doing so, he has never done so IIRC, and if you mean their recent fight, remember just because he throwed him back by kinetic force, doesn't mean he was damaged or in pain like Aquaman did to Superman, where we clearly are seen that the punch did affect Superman, unlike in Colossus vs Juggs.

Yeah, but underwater I also think Aquaman is a low high tier.

And? The underwater part is arguable.

But anyways, he has other feats as well, - damaged and probably KO's an opponent, who was beating up Superman.

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@king_hellstorm she did not need to be protected from the nuke.

http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Superman-Wonder-Woman/Issue-6?id=33031#16-----> They were already kod before and were weak.

http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Superman-Wonder-Woman/Issue-7?id=33035#5------> Here diana gets up before clark who is still not conscious.

http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Superman-Wonder-Woman/Issue-7?id=33035#10------>Here is Superman states that he absorbed too much radiation "getting power but it hurts"

Although why radiation did not have much effect on Wonder Woman at the centre of the blast, Superman did absorb most of it.