Silver2467

The novel narrates no less than three times that Mace channels Palpatine's power, and it's literal enough that the prose offers this as explanation for precisely how Mace deflects the Lightning with his lightsaber.

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

--Revenge of the Sith

You're correct that the principal element of Vaapad is a Jedi "enjoying the fight," "passing the penumbra of the dark side," "the thrill of the battle," etc., but the conditioned closeness to dark power is how Mace is then able to draw in and then redirect out what the novel calls a "cycle of power." Power itself is what the superconducting loop channels; fury, unrestrained emotion, and darkness are correlated aspects channeled with it, as they form the bedrock and soil of that power.

No such thing has ever been stated. I've read Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor twice, and while it may have been some years since either reading, the only time anything like that was ever implied that I recall was during narration from Cronal's own perspective, which is hardly reliable. As far as he was concerned, he was manipulating Vader and the Emperor both, and his estimation of his own usefulness and power doesn't suggest quite what you think it would. It pertains mostly to his arcane Force skills, his Darksight, and his power to influence people and events after foreseeing what will transpire. It has nothing to do with any combat-related power.

In fact, I'm not even sure why Cronal is in this thread at all. His body is so gnarled and weakened by the dark side that he's confined to extensive life-support systems. Blackhole is powerful, but the threat posed by him comes in way of his manipulation and experiments with alchemy, not from his standing as a warrior. If memory serves, he keeps a sword of some peculiar design handy, but there's little attesting to his mastery as a fighter. If this thread intends this to be Lord Shadowspawn, Nick Rostu, then he's also outclassed here. Luke had no trouble at all disarming him and removing the crown of meltmassif controlling him. I love Cronal; he's my favorite character in this thread. But he's out of his element here.

@jkbart: Hm, I see. Tahiri's case always made more sense to me, given her unique connection much like Jacen. But I always thought that was strange with Luke in TUF musing he could ragdoll Harrar, and yet he had to use a workaround like you described for instance in the first book of the Dark Tide duology, where he basically uses TK to stone a couple Vong to death because he couldn't touch them directly (pretty sure this was during the scene where he rescues Jacen). I suppose I just didn't think to read the foregone exposition into those scenes in order to figure out the subtext.

Thanks for the explanation. That actually helps me reconcile those few inconsistencies quite a bit. :)

@darthfallax: You seem to have a better grasp of LotF and FotJ's power levels than I do; so let me ask a question. Do you remember if Kyp or Kyle were compared to Luke at all? I know Luke is repeatedly referred to as the best warrior in the Order, but are Kyp or Kyle renowned as within his ballpark?

I only ask because in Outcast, Luke curbstomps Valin in like two or three moves (if I remember correctly), and Valin had just fought with his father more evenly before that. Obviously, Corran's attachment to his son should be accounted for there too, and that does roil the waters a bit surrounding this showing. But if there's something that suggests Kyp or Kyle are rivals for Luke with a lightsaber, then Corran might nevertheless trail behind them.

Good breakdown. The one dispute I could offer in defense of Luke's estimation of Kyp and Kyle is that he singled them out, which some have interpreted as ranking them above nearly anyone else, but as you said, the text doesn't strictly preclude anyone else and could just be a mention of two notable duelists that came to mind. To repeat what I said, it's not binding.

Corran has been using illusions mid-fight since I, Jedi. So, yeah, he can.

By contrast, I can't assert dogmatically that he could fool them either. I think he's liable to, given his feats overall, but it's certainly debatable.

Inconsistency seems like a probable choice too. I don't expect Denning to maintain conceits like that so many years later, even if they probably should.

@jkbart: That seemed to be true in the beginning of the war, and there's certainly a multiplicity of sources and novels that reaffirm this. But as the NJO series progressed, there were occasions where Jedi managed to TK Vong. The prime example that comes to mind derives from The Unifying Force in the skirmish between Nom Anor and the heretics against the loyalist Vong warriors during the Battle of Coruscant. Tahiri blasts about a dozen of them away, but then again, that might be attributable to her Vongsense.

The other one that comes to mind though is this:

Luke knew that he could use the Force to levitate Harrar, to pirouette him about the small cabin, but he couldn’t see him in the same way he could see Mara, Jacen, Saba, and Jabitha—as luminous beings; not as the crude stuff of flesh and bone, but as an egg-shaped being of light.

--The Unifying Force

Luke is confident he can ragdoll Harrar at his leisure; his one drawback in power is in sensing the priest through the Force, not affecting him with it.

Like I said, I'm aware that much of the material contradicts itself about this with all the exceptions that were seen through the story.

I wouldn't disagree with your appraisal of Kyp's role, and I also don't know anything about Arcann and Vaylin. So I can't comment on the outcome.

Just making things difficult for you. :P

Indeed. His crowning achievement in Star Wars is still Republic though.

You're so like your idol Maul. Belief in mercy...

All of this is pretty agreeable.

I actually forgot about much of this. So solid points.

Yeah, my points about Corran mainly came from earlier in his career than FotJ and LotF because he wasn't as prominent there.

@i_like_swords:I don't disagree with you at all that Kyp's combative feats are severely disappointing given the potential he's vaunted for (primarily by Anderson) and the truly titanic scales of environmental power he's boasted before, but DC's contention that Kyp lacked opportunity to shine in a fight is true up to a certain point in Kyp's career.

During the battles with the Imperial Remnant, there weren't many Force sensitive enemies Kyp faced head-on, and during the subsequent war, the Vong's severance from the Force suppresses, though not entirely stops, the effects of standard abilities like TK. It is somewhat understandable in these situations why he might not be ragdolling Dark Jedi left and right when he's not engaging them in this time period.

Now, after the Vong War, your point takes more precedence, because there were Dark Jedi and Sith running around for Kyp to massacre in light of his alleged strength, yet he doesn't do that all too often. Can we completely rule out environmental feats though? I don't think that's wholly fair. They are a measurement of Force power, but you can certainly argue that Kyp may not be tossing around singularity-moving TK in a direct fight, to which I would agree considering his combat showings. Is Kyp supposed to be a Jedi approaching Luke's power though? Yes he is. Can you reasonably infer some degree of combative usefulness from that absent established feats? I think so, but then, this can become a bit of a guessing game.

As a sidenote, I know the quote you posted from Dark Nest was partially facetious, but it should be pointed out nonetheless that under Denning's pen, almost everyone is ragdolled time and again. Luke is seen pitched aside multiple times, but no one questions that he's the most powerful Force sensitive in the galaxy, barring exceptional cases like Abeloth.

I've lost count of the number of times Denning and co. have used a paraphrase of this annoying refrain: "Luke prepared himself for the attack, summoning the Force to reflect it back on its source. Instead, he suddenly felt himself flying meters back, hurled by invisible power wrenching him against the stone. He heard more than felt his ribs crack and tasted blood on his lips—probably dripping from his head, but it was swimming too much to say."

(^That isn't a quote by the way; that's my rough approximation of the writing style in post-NJO novels.) My point is, under Denning's pen, pretty much anyone can ragdoll anyone under the proper circumstances or if procured with an accommodating opportunity without it necessarily implying greater power with the Force (TCW is like that a bit as well). That's why you can have Luke dominate Caedus with the Force in three different ways(pinning him to his chair, ripping apart his ship, scaring him with mind tricks) but still only somewhat overpower him in a duel while on a hunt for blood. Doesn't make any sense.

Moral of the story, the Legacy era sucks. And, yes, ILS, I'm including the Legacy comic series. Sorry.

@darthfallax: Yes, his illusions form much of my reason for that.

I named Kyp as possibly the most able swordsmen due to some comments in FotJ that could indicate that, but granted are not necessarily binding. Corran is a deadly swordmaster in his own right though, proved through the Vong War, and what he may lack in the gaudy environmental powers displayed by a Kyp Durron, he makes up for in intrusive and unseen powers. With the exception of maybe Mara, I don't know if anyone here has the TP resistance feats to suggest they'd block his mind tricks, and his Absorption can be very useful too if anyone shocks him with TK blasts.

I'm not sure if anyone here is more powerful than Gethzerion on Dathomir, but there's no doubt that Team 2 is comprised of more battle-tested warriors. The power commanded by Unu is vast, and Lomi's Force Webs are extremely deadly.

Might go with Team 2 for now.

EDIT: Actually, I'm not sure who's most powerful here. Need to give that further consideration.