Great list! Not sure I can agree with Kemmler's placement though; he's a major player throughout Warhammer history, has contended with multiple strong characters, and I frankly can't see him bellow any of the human mages except maybe Gelt
Everyone put him below Skrolk, including yourself, and the general consensus was that he wasn't all that impressive. I can't see how he's not below the best human magic users. Amped Gregor fighting Kairos and Malagor at the same time>>>>>>being below Skrolk. That's not even mentioning names like Volans (who you said was above Gelt, meaning he should logically be above Kemmler too), and Thyrus. Max should also be higher if he's Be'lakor level.
Isn't Thorek more of a "magic nullifer" than a proper spellcaster? My understanding is that WHF Dwarfs don't do magic really, the Runesmiths being their kind-of-sort-of equivalent.
And yeah, Khatep should be higher for sure based on everything you just said.
@shroudofsorrow:You could also add Lord Pahuax, another Slann and one who was powerful enough to banish an entire army of chaos daemons (including multiple greater daemons) with a single spell (he failed since he was tricked by Chaos). Presumably 1st generation, possibly second. But him making a shield that blocks off multiple greater daemons, and being capable of smiting a full army with some time to gather power, should put him second only to Kroak.
He's already on the list. Pahuax is the name of his temple. The slaan's name is Huinitenuchli. He's already Top 10. I still say Maz is better though, because general consensus is that he's the #2 behind Kroak :)
Peak Be'lakor might be. Its a bit unclear how strong he was, but he had an unprecedented amount of powers granted from the four gods, after his betrayal they made sure to seperate it broadly. So he should be the strongest chaos follower ever. The Be'lakor we usually see in stuff like Asavar's invasions and ET is exceptionally weakened.
Well, when I ranked Be'lakor, I was thinking of him as he appears in present day canon, so it would be the "weakened" version.
And I get thst the Slaan are powerful, but is it really the case that even minor Slaan characters are above the likes of Teclis and Nagash?
Minor slann still can move mountains, and are stated the greatest mages in the world several times over. Teclis touched one of their minds and got scared, and peak pre-ET Nagash was stated to be "surely defeated" if he tried fighting even Southlands Slann (who's strongest is 3rd generation at best). Maybe peak ET Nagash beats 5th or maybe 4th, but all the 1st, 2nd and almost definitively 3rd stomp him.
Well, Adohi-Tehga and the one who's name is impossible to pronounce are both "second spawning", so I assume that means they're 2nd generation. I don't think Tenuchli's generation is specified.
Arkhan did kill her as a sacrifice, but it was Drycha and an army which captured Fay, so she was defenceless against arkhan at the time.
Dang. The Skink's tougher than I thought. Katarin is one of THE top Order-aligned human spellcasters in the setting. For him to be good enough to stomp her, that's pretty crazy.
Tetto'eko is held in the same regard as slann and casually tosses comets so yeah ;D
OK, so he never beat her in a proper fight. Got it. Am perplexed as to why Drycha would throw in with the undead though.
So Skreech is a magic-user and a fighter is he? Didn't know that.
Most daemons are spellcasters, even Khorne daemons have some abilities. And Skreech is noted to be the most powerful verminlord
Near as I can tell, Volans was only ever mentioned in one of the RPG books. What did he do to put him above Balthasar Gelt?
He's noted in two actually xD. Volans was the first supreme patriarch, and trained by Teclis himself. But most importantly is that he is the only human ever noted capable of seeing all eight winds even pre-Teclis, and that he survived early experiments of using them all without being corrupted (but he did realise that he could not actually use all 8 without being corrupted). Note that a patriarch mage that later accessed a magical book containing some of Volans knowledge instantly went insane, caused a storm of magic to appear that heavily amped every wizard in Altdorf (every wizard was stated to be 10x stronger), and casually wielded all 8 winds.
Well, that's a bit vague, but I suppose we could consider Skreech to be high by implication at least.
Which patriarch did the above? Either way, yes, that would imply Volans is quite powerful, since he could presumably do the same thing this other patriarch did and potentially more.
Also, what did the Hand do to put him above Mannfred? The latter seems like a far more important/valued servant of Nagash. Nagash even went to the trouble of bringing him back despite hating his guts, which he didn't do for the Hand. It suggests to me that Mannfred was considered the better asset (even when, again, Nagash hated him).
Well first of thats AoS lore, so kind of not relevant to Warhammer Fantasy rankings (as characterizations, lore and powers are fundamentaly different). But since I don't want to just use that excuse when its brought up, two things to note anyways:
- By that logic Mannfred (and Neferata) both must be > Vlad, Abhorash, Zacharias, Walach Harkon, Usirian, the Dread King, and any other undead. And we know for a fact he's below most of these.
- Mannfred was chosen because 1: he's the most like Nagash himself in personality, and for some reason AoS Nagash is sentimental and wants a son apparently. 2: His personality matches Nagash's needs. Whereas Arkhan is a bad tactician and just feeds into enemies loyally (since AoS made him an idiot. Note that he's consistently smarter than Mannfred in WH), Mannfred will always think about himself first and live to fight another day. And since he's also a scheming and lying rat, he and Neferata cancel each other out, preventing either from conspiring against Nagash. So its not about power, skills, or anything like that. Its about Mannfred being a scheming coward and Nagash needing one.
Meanwhile there are several reasons why the Hand is superior to Mannfred:
1. The Dread King searched for three things to take over the world; His own necklace which multiplies his power significantly (note: that means that the Dread King that Mannfred serves is significantly weakened from prime), the Black Grail, and The Hand of Nagash. Mannfred on the other hand serves as a minion for him that tries to find his necklace. The Hand was supposed to be working alongside the Dread King, while Mannfred was a servant to them.
2. The same group that defeated Mannfred within Drakenhof itself, hired a group of ogres to help them, and then still thought they needed the added reinforcements of an Ice Mage and an army of norscan horseriders with battleaxes.
3. Even Katarin was afraid of the Hand's power
Well, regarding Abhorash, his final fate in the End Times is left unclear, and he also has a code of honor that doesn't mesh well with Nagash. But yeah, there are other undead characters who are above Mannfred.
In any case, you've done a solid job of arguing for The Hand being better than Mannfred.
Tetto'eko stomps Belannaer, Katarin, Zacharias and arguably some of the others.
Skreech Verminking is > Vermalanx
Dang. The Skink's tougher than I thought. Katarin is one of THE top Order-aligned human spellcasters in the setting. For him to be good enough to stomp her, that's pretty crazy.
So Skreech is a magic-user and a fighter is he? Didn't know that.
Blue scribes are an oddball in that they should be some of the most knowledgeable sorcerers in warhammer, but they aren't really. They don't know the spells as much as have scrolls with them, and they pick spells entirely at random. So tough call to put them that high.
Near as I can tell, Volans was only ever mentioned in one of the RPG books. What did he do to put him above Balthasar Gelt?
Guess the Blue Scribes should be lower. I took them for better.
I already decided to add Halescourge and Rasknitt. Thanks for telling me about the others. Didn't know they existed. What about Neferata?
Also, what did the Hand do to put him above Mannfred? The latter seems like a far more important/valued servant of Nagash. Nagash even went to the trouble of bringing him back despite hating his guts, which he didn't do for the Hand. It suggests to me that Mannfred was considered the better asset (even when, again, Nagash hated him).
Hm, this spawned a nice discussion while I was away!
Personally, I'd consider Reynold's statements valid indicators of what COULD have happened. As in, Settra may not have literally beaten Kholek, but I take what he said as evidence that Settra is capable of beating Kholek, if that makes sense.
As far as the suggestions, a lot of those warriors are already in the same tier. And remember, each section is sorted alphabetically. I suppose I could move Skarbrand into the Top 10 instead of The Green Knight, but it was always my impression that TGK was Top 10 material.
As for Sigmar, Mortal Sigmar and Pre-End Times Nagash were the versions that fought each-other. I don't think that necessarily indicates how a fight between the better versions would go. And as I recall, Sigmar as a god fought Archaon to a standstill, the End Times ending with them pulling a Cleganebowl and tumbling into the abyss together, or something. I'd call being in End Times Archaons' ballpark sufficient proof that he's significantly above what he was during his earlier battles with Nagash.
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