@cheth

@mordhauextreme1

@cergic

Ouh, this is tough!

Great list! Not sure I can agree with Kemmler's placement though; he's a major player throughout Warhammer history, has contended with multiple strong characters, and I frankly can't see him bellow any of the human mages except maybe Gelt

Also I just realised we forgot another major player: Max Schreiber. He outright beat Be'lakor in a magical duel (and nearly destroyed him), and only died because he was so focused on saving Felix he was too spent to save himself.

@shroudofsorrow:You could also add Lord Pahuax, another Slann and one who was powerful enough to banish an entire army of chaos daemons (including multiple greater daemons) with a single spell (he failed since he was tricked by Chaos). Presumably 1st generation, possibly second. But him making a shield that blocks off multiple greater daemons, and being capable of smiting a full army with some time to gather power, should put him second only to Kroak.

Neferata, as requested :). As a wizard she's probably in the tiers of Vlad. She knows 4 lores of magic (Mannfred, famed for knowledge knows 3), and has many sorceries that only she knows. She also rose an entire army of undead within seconds, and thats after blasting hundreds of enemies as well as a Tomb Prince casually. She can also create storms and her main magic lies in manipulation.

Thorek Ironbrow should also frankly be ranked here. Possibly the greatest runesmith ever, was the main factor in dwarfs winning a 1:1000 battle, was capable of negating the magic of Neferata, her personal handmaiden, and dozens of other vampires, despite all of them being massively amped. And when they went to melee he incinerated half of them with a single hammerstroke, proceeded to oneshot Neferata's strongest handmaiden, and while bleeding out and with his anvil nearly broken at this point, he made a huge cave that had room for five armies fall in. And before this fight even began he had spent hours on his anvil dispelling magic Neferata had put in advance and figuring out new dwarf runes. Would potentially put him in Arkhan's tier

Also would again push for Christoph Engel to be added, massively above Sienna, and quite possibly superior to any of the enemy mages in vermintide, or at least powerful enough that they can't breach his illusions. Also one of the best illusionists we have seen. Just look at how he alters perceptions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTJDQ1v30vo&t=1231s (couldn't put it in as a proper link sadly, CV being weird)

Finally I would argue that Khatep deserves a raise in position. Vastly older than any other mage ranked besides the daemons, slann, Caledor and Morathi (he's from Settra's time). Has the greatest knowledge of the lore of Nehekhara of any character. Can casually teleport and raise thousands of skeletons. And he even prevented Lizardmen mages from using magic with a single word. Unconfirmed whether its slann or skink priests, but if they were skinks priests they were particularily powerful ones as they were destroying war statues (were noted to be particularily large, so Colossuses, Warsphinxes, necrosphinxes, etc). Note that for a comparison, ET Nagash with the Black Pyramid (pre-consuming Usirian) had to spend incredible effort (and more than a full page) beating a single warsphinx (although it was one of the greatest ones). At minimum he should be in the 11-25 (I think he could actually be in the top 10, but he's sadly got exceptionally few feats)

Everyone put him below Skrolk, including yourself, and the general consensus was that he wasn't all that impressive. I can't see how he's not below the best human magic users. Amped Gregor fighting Kairos and Malagor at the same time>>>>>>being below Skrolk. That's not even mentioning names like Volans (who you said was above Gelt, meaning he should logically be above Kemmler too), and Thyrus. Max should also be higher if he's Be'lakor level.

Isn't Thorek more of a "magic nullifer" than a proper spellcaster? My understanding is that WHF Dwarfs don't do magic really, the Runesmiths being their kind-of-sort-of equivalent.

And yeah, Khatep should be higher for sure based on everything you just said.

@cheth said:

He's already on the list. Pahuax is the name of his temple. The slaan's name is Huinitenuchli. He's already Top 10. I still say Maz is better though, because general consensus is that he's the #2 behind Kroak :)

Also, what about Drycha?

Well, I've decided Khatep and Max should be 11-25 tier, both just shy of the Top 10.

26-50 tier now has two extras. Who of the following are the two weakest?:

• Arkhan the Black (Tomb Kings)
• Balthasar Gelt (Empire of Man)
• Belannaer the Wise (High Elves)
• Frederick van Hal (Empire of Man)
• Human Nagash (Independent)
• Karitamen (Tomb Kings)
• Khenteka (Tomb Kings)
• Lord Skrolk (Skaven)
• Malagor the Dark Omen (Beastmen)
• Mannfred von Carstein (Vampire Counts)
• Melkhior the Ancient (Vampire Counts)
• N'kari the Arch-Tempter (Slaanesh)
• Naieth the Prophetess (Wood Elves)
• Neferata (Vampire Counts)
• Skreech Verminking (Skaven)
• Thanquol when not jobbing (Skaven)
• The Hand of Nagash (Vampire Counts)
• Thyrus Gormann (Empire of Man)
• Tzarina Katarin Bokha the Ice Queen (Kislev)
• Vermalanx the Corrupt (Skaven)
• Verspasian Kant (Empire of Man)
• Vilitch the Curseling (Tzeentch)
• Vlad von Carstein (Vampire Counts)
• Volans (Empire of Man)
• W'Soran the Wicked (Vampire Counts)
• Wurrzag da Great Green Prophet (Greenskins)
• Zacharias the Everliving (Vampire Counts)

@shroudofsorrow:

Skrolk stomps most human mages as well, and beats the rest, Kemmler being sub Skrolk doesn't mean much. Also when I said humans I didn't refer to Gregor while he's being amped of course lmfao. I was refering to Gelt, Kant, Elspeth, Thyrus, etc.

Thorek isn't a mage per say but he does do magic runes on his Anvil. And its not limited to nullifying: He can cast lightning bolts, empower weaponry and armour, he can crack mountains, etc. Don't really see a reason why one should exclude him

I'm not sure how to tell you this but the one I'm refering to died during the great catastrophe lol. But I did write the wrong name, I meant Pocaxaln. And Maz is not the second, not even close. He's inferior to any 1st gen slann. But post-apocalypse Kroak is the only remaning 1st gen (and he's kinda dead), which is why Maz is considered the #2. Maz is the greatest of the 2nd gen slann. (Also while Huinitenuchli is from Pahuax originally, he now rules Xlanhuapec, and yeah he's sub Maz since he's also a 2nd gen)

What do you think of Max and Engel?

As for Drycha, she's pretty potent, managed to temporarily imprison WoS Malekith and Seraphon, and captured the Fay Enchantress (though she had an entire army and pretended to be helping at first). Probably in the 26-50 range. However note that Drycha should be inferior to the major treemen ancients: Adanhu, Durthu, Coedill.

@cheth: I thought Durthu was more of a melee fighter?

Eh, I wouldn't put Skrolk or Kemmler above the Tzarina, and she's a human. Or the mightiest of Tzeentch's human followers (Egrimm).

Fair enough with Thorek.

Max was put int he 11-25 tier, since that's where Be'lakor is (and he definitely is above Skrolk and Kemmler based on that).

Engel is 51-75.

And now the 26-50 tier has three people who need to be bumped down a tier.

Thanks...I think XD

@shroudofsorrow: Thanqoul and isabella need to swap places and as for more ill have to think on it more as well and double check feats

@mordhauextreme1: Jobbing or non-jobbing for Thanquol?

@shroudofsorrow: doesnt matter hes still more powerful than her. Jobbing thanqoul usually hurts himself more than his foes do any work. Technically speaking Thanqoul is always jobbing as it is skaven nature to basically job. IF we did a non jobbing balls to the wall thanqoul he'd be malekith level

@mordhauextreme1: Very well. Switched 'em.

@shroudofsorrow:

26-50 tier now has two extras. Who of the following are the two weakest?

The weakest of the two are Kant and Thyrus

I thought Durthu was more of a melee fighter?

He prefers melee since in it he's unbeatable, but he's still a high-tier wizard as well

Eh, I wouldn't put Skrolk or Kemmler above the Tzarina, and she's a human. Or the mightiest of Tzeentch's human followers (Egrimm).

Skrolk I do have above Tzarina, or at least at her level. Kemmler I would have slightly below. I tend to exclude chaos sorcerers when i say "human" since they have superhuman abilities and access to much greater lores of magic

and he definitely is above Skrolk and Kemmler based on that

I said Kemmler is maybe above Gelt, of course he's sub Max lmfao

@shroudofsorrow: I apologise for continuing to come with new characters, but I just realised Kritislik deserves a mention. Up until getting eaten by the Horned Rat, he was the most powerful skaven. So he should be above Thanquol.

Elontir is a high elf mage, high tier potential, was destined to be an archmage but accidentaly killed one other elf mage and injured another in a duel, helped Magnus in the war against Avasar Kul, etc. Most importantly though he's part of a 4-man team which defeated a bloodthirster, great unclean one, keeper of secrets and a lord of change (each by itself in different battles). He's the only mage in said team (others are a slayer, an empire captain and a wood elf scout).

Helspeth Bale was a chaos sorcerer, one of the strongest chaos champion after Avasar Kul died, at one point oneshotted the 4-man team of Elontir, and transformed into a lord of change (the one that they killed in the end).

Nebmakhet was a Tomb King. He instantly disintegrated a high-tier wizard of the amethyst college, was said to know the secret to eternal life, hyped to be a threat to the empire as a whole (note that Teclis and Finreir still were helping Magnus at the time), and Elontir's team (after they had killed the four greater daemons) needed to explicitly weaken him using a ritual (which included using five nehekharan scrolls) before facing him even with another wizard to help. Note that even then they couldn't destroy him, only send him back to rest.

And while we're on the subject of that era, Finreir and Yrtle also deserve a mention. Both are elves of greater standing than Elontir, and were the two elves Teclis brought with him to defeat the forces of Chaos. Little information of Yrtle since he died in the war, but should still be exceptionally potent. Finreir however helped Teclis found the colleges of magic, wrote the book of days, invented a spell of high magic, and was the highest ranking loremaster besides Teclis and Belannaer.

As in, he's the number one melee fighter in the setting? Above even the likes of Sigmar, Archaon, Skarbrand, Ka'bandha, etc.?

But you said that Kemmler is above ALL human magic users except for maybe Gelt. But doesn't Max contradict that?

At any rate, 26-50 now has 5 extras. Who of the following 30 are the five weakest?:

• Adanhu (Wood Elves)
• Arkhan the Black (Tomb Kings)
• Balthasar Gelt (Empire of Man)
• Belannaer the Wise (High Elves)
• Coeddil (Independent)
• Drycha (Independent)
• Durthu (Wood Elves)
• Elontir (High Elves)
• Helspeth Bale (Tzeentch)
• Human Nagash (Independent)
• Karitamen (Tomb Kings)
• Lord Skrolk (Skaven)
• Malagor the Dark Omen (Beastmen)
• Mannfred von Carstein (Vampire Counts)
• Melkhior the Ancient (Vampire Counts)
• N'kari the Arch-Tempter (Slaanesh)
• Naieth the Prophetess (Wood Elves)
• Nebmakhet (Tomb Kings)
• Neferata (Vampire Counts)
• Skreech Verminking (Skaven)
• Thanquol when not jobbing (Skaven)
• The Hand of Nagash (Vampire Counts)
• Thorek Ironbrow (Dwarfs)
• Tzarina Katarin Bokha the Ice Queen (Kislev)
• Vermalanx the Corrupt (Skaven)
• Vilitch the Curseling (Tzeentch)
• Vlad von Carstein (Vampire Counts)
• Volans (Empire of Man)
• W'Soran the Wicked (Vampire Counts)
• Zacharias the Everliving (Vampire Counts)

Not supposed to be taken literal in either of these questions xD. I do hold Durthu above Sigmar and Archaon, and comparable to Skarbrand and Ka'bandha. If anyone could beat them in a straight up fight, its Durthu.

Do recall that I only remembered Max existed after i made that statement lmfao. But yeah the chain goes Max > Katarin > Gelt and then either Gelt > Kemmler or Kemmler > Gelt. Would back Kemmler.

At any rate, 26-50 now has 5 extras. Who of the following 30 are the five weakest?

Oh god, so many good ones now. Vilitch is one of those I would toss out, I never really found him anything remarkable.

Although it pains me so, since he's the only beastman, I also don't think Malagor is that strong, or at least not ever allowed any hype or feats that allow him to stay.

Naieth is powerful enough to stay if it was pure power, but all of her ability goes to divination, which will be useless if she can't counter spells or fight other mages in this context.

Of the remaining the weakest probably are Vlad, Gelt, Neferata, and N'kari. Gelt has the best mage feats, but at the same time I'm not sure if he's actually more powerful than Neferata and Vlad. They are definitively much more knowledgeable and naturally powerful, but Gelt more often actually uses it for offensive spells. N'kari is of the highest standing (one of the most powerful slaaneshi daemons), but he also has the least feats as a wizard, and has soooo many anti-feats. Frankly these four are almost exactly as strong as one another as mages, so idk. You could also potentially lower Elontir

@cheth: But...but Sigmar and Archaon are better than Skarbrand...

Either way, Durthu being Top 10 tier as a warrior is pretty insane.

Wait, so Vilitch isn't actually impressive? Rather embarrassing for a Tzeentch champion to underwhelm in magic.

So Naieth doesn't actually have any magical combat feats? In that case I would move her into the "Too vague" category.

@shroudofsorrow:

But...but Sigmar and Archaon are better than Skarbrand...

Disagree

Either way, Durthu being Top 10 tier as a warrior is pretty insane.

Yuup. And Coedill is on his level.

Wait, so Vilitch isn't actually impressive? Rather embarrassing for a Tzeentch champion to underwhelm in magic.

He's probably powerful... but he hasn't done anything mid-tier human mages haven't. I am far more impressed by Egrimm and Aekold

So Naieth doesn't actually have any magical combat feats? In that case I would move her into the "Too vague" category.

She has some stuff, but she's almost entirely a diviner. She doesn't have combative magic, so she's useless against other mages in 1v1s.

As I see it, if Aenarion can beat Skarbrand, other characters on his tier should be able to as well, and I definitely put Sigmar and Archaon at their best in that category. But we can table that discussion for another day, since it doesn't relate to magic ;)

Must have missed this one, but Aenarion never fought nor beat Skarbrand :)

Now for why I am lurking here, I've thought of a few new mages for you to add:

- Nagaira: Half-sister of Malus Darkblade. At first a really powerful sorcereress trained by one of the strongest sorcereresses of the dark elfs, and one which caused a magical storm that basically blew apart a tower. Then she joined chaos and did a ritual that nearly destroyed Hag Graef, and she amped base Malus up to a point where he could shrug off lightning that melted his armour and slaughter sorceresses (was only stopped when her master and Malus's mother drew on the power of a coven of sorceresses and they removed the amp from him). Then there's prime Nagaira who was empowered personally by all four chaos gods at once, could make storms that lasted for days even with dark elf sorceresses working against it, created a portal that summoned an army of slaaneshi daemons (some nearly sixty feet tall), summoned a bloodthirster, created rainstorms that caused all dead it touched to rise, and after consuming an amount of spirits, she and a coven of bray-shamans were able to directly challenge Malekith, Morathi, and a coven of sorceresses (note that, while Nagaira is supposed to be super-powerful and is amped by all four gods, the author also has a mediocre understanding of Malekith/Morathi and is known for having done lackluster research for the novels). She also for a time held her own against Malus with the warpsword, Morathi striking lightning at her, and Seraphon's breaths. She even took direct hits from all three.

- Eradorius: One of the five sorcerers who bound Tz'arkan. In his prime he drew on 1/5th of Tz'arkan's power. After his prime, he still was a long-time rival of AENARION, and was only forced to flee when his own army turned against him. At which point he fled to an island, hid it in a magical haze that manipulated space and time, created a massive tower with an impossible maze, and created a monster to make sure noone could surivive the maze (though he died because he is someone and the monster killed anyone). Also had made a talisman that could manipulate space and time.

- Ehrenlish: also one of the five. Iirc implied to be the strongest of them all, and the only to technicaly survive.

- Kul Hadar: A really powerful beastman shaman. Oneshotted scores of beastmen with fire. Overpowered the spirit of Ehrenlish. Could amp himself so heavily he was ragdolling malus in melee

- Urial: Halfbrother of Malus, and trained by the temple of khaine. He can teleport groups of people from the middle of Naggaroth to moving ships near Bretonnia. He was capable of spamming teleportation in the middle of a duel (as in, each time his opponent tried to stab him he vanished and reappeared instantly). Called a chaos sorcerer possessed by a daemon an amateur, and casually blocked bolts of lightning while fighting through hordes of enemies with an axe. Could teleport people to other dimensions. Could summon spirits and riders immune to pain. Was a rival of Nagaira.

- Tz'arkan: More powerful than all five sorcerers that trapped him and really anyone else mentioned previously. Has devoured entire world in the past. Capable of two-shotting a talisman supposed to be capable of blocking any magic no matter the power. Tanked the warpsword of khaine hitting him directly.

- Kadon: known basically of the heir of Nagash. Fully embraced the power of the crown of sorcery. noted to be one of the most powerful necromancers bar Nagash, Drachenfels and Vanhal.

- Kadon the Shackler: human mage who performed spells even Teclis could not. His spells are noted impossible for current humans to replicate. He bound a leviathan and seven dragons on his own.

- Kritslik: as the leader of the grey seers and head of the council, he should be the most powerful skaven mage of his time bar maybe Nurglitch.

@shroudofsorrow: realised i already told you about kritslik before lol, and you already added him