shroudofsorrow

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Ranking Warhammer's Magic Users-Determining Phase

Another attempt to tier as many WHF characters as possible, this time with a focus on the magic-users. Once again, (respectful) feedback welcome.

Top 5

  • Caledor Dragontamer (High Elves)
  • Lord Kroak (Lizardmen)
  • Lord Mazdamundi (Lizardmen)
  • Nagash the Undying (Unaligned)
  • Teclis (High Elves)

6-10

  • Alarielle the Radiant (High Elves)
  • Be'lakor the First-Damned (Chaos Undivided)
  • Galrauch (Chaos Undivided)
  • Gregor Martak amped by Teclis during End Times (Empire of Man)
  • Kairos Fateweaver (Tzeentch)

11-25:

  • Ariel (Wood Elves)
  • Arkhan the Black (Tomb Kings)
  • Belannaer the Wise (High Elves)
  • Egrimm van Horstmann (Tzeentch)
  • Lord Adohi-Tehga (Lizardmen)
  • Lord Huinitenuchli (Lizardmen)
  • Lord Tenuchli (Lizardmen)
  • Malekith the Witch-King (Dark Elves)
  • Morathi (Dark Elves)
  • Nagash c. War with Sigmar (Unaligned)
  • The Blue Scribes (Tzeentch)
  • The Changeling (Tzeentch)
  • Tzarina Katarin Bokha the Ice Queen (Kislev)
  • Vermalanx the Corrupt (Skaven)
  • Zacharias the Everliving (Vampire Counts)

26-50

  • Aekold Helbrass (Tzeentch)
  • Anethra Helbane (Dark Elves)
  • Astarielle (High Elves)
  • Balthasar Gelt (Empire of Man)
  • Constant Drachenfels (Vampire Counts)
  • Elspeth von Draken (Empire of Man)
  • Frederick van Hal (Empire of Man)
  • Heinrich Kemmler (Vampire Counts)
  • Human Nagash (Unaligned)
  • Karitamen (Tomb Kings)
  • Khatep (Tomb Kings)
  • Khenteka (Tomb Kings)
  • Lilaeth (Dark Elves)
  • Lord Skrolk (Skaven)
  • Malagor the Dark Omen (Beastmen)
  • Mannfred von Carstein (Vampire Counts)
  • Melkhior the Ancient (Vampire Counts)
  • Naieth the Prophetess (Wood Elves)
  • Tetto'eko (Lizardmen)
  • Thanquol when not jobbing (Skaven)
  • The Fay Enchantress, Current/Most Recent (Bretonnia)
  • Vilitch the Curseling (Tzeentch)
  • Vlad von Carstein (Vampire Counts)
  • W'Soran the Wicked (Vampire Counts)
  • Wurrzag da Great Green Prophet (Greenskins)

51-75

  • Anara of Garamont (Bretonnia)
  • Astragoth Ironhand (Chaos Dwarfs)
  • Aurelion (High Elves)
  • Azhag the Slaughterer (Greenskins)
  • Bloab Rotspawned, Lord of the Daemonflies (Nurgle)
  • Dieter Helsnicht, Doom Lord of the Undead (Vampire Counts)
  • Eleanor de Quenelles (Bretonnia)
  • Festus the Leechlord (Nurgle)
  • Gregor Martak (Empire of Man)
  • Hapusneb, Master of the Swarm (Tomb Kings)
  • Ikit Claw (Skaven)
  • Isabella von Carstein (Vampire Counts)
  • Loremaster Shrinastor, Hierophant of the Golden Way (High Elves)
  • Melekh the Changer (Tzeentch)
  • Molokh Slugtongue (Beastmen)
  • Moonclaw (Beastmen)
  • Nebamun (Tomb Kings)
  • Nicolete of Oisement (Vampire Counts)
  • Princess Adranna (High Elves)
  • Savan of Tiranoc (High Elves)
  • Tchar'zanek (Tzeentch)
  • The Harbinger (Beastmen)
  • The Three Sisters of Ancelioux (Bretonnia)
  • The White Ladies (Vampire Counts)
  • Varesh Warptongue (Tzeentch)

76-85

  • Anarelle (High Elves)
  • Lady Iselda of Acquitaine (Bretonnia)
  • Lord Blistrox (Skaven)
  • Lord Grilok (Skaven)
  • Lord Gritch (Skaven)
  • Rasknitt (Skaven)
  • Sienna Feugonasus (Empire of Man)
  • Sister of Thorn Kerillian (Wood Elves)
  • Skittar (Skaven)
  • Warlord Skarsnik (Greenskins)

@cheth, @mordhauextreme1, @cergic, @six-deuce

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buildhare

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Is anyone in the top 5 actually on par with Kroak? Seems odd to have anyone in the same tier tbh.

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Cheth

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Quick question, is it about pure power, combative ability with magic or like knowledge/understanding

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shroudofsorrow

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Edited By shroudofsorrow

@cheth: Its basically the same as my Warrior tiering, but with magic users. So yeah, more a ranking of power / who would win in a mass free-for-all than knowledge (though I figure those who are high in one are usually high in the other)

@buildhare said:

Is anyone in the top 5 actually on par with Kroak? Seems odd to have anyone in the same tier tbh.

Sometimes characters are comparable to one another. Besides, its easier to rank this many characters by tiers anyway.

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shroudofsorrow

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MordhauExtreme1

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shroudofsorrow

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@mordhauextreme1: I think that was in response to my warrior rankings. This is my ranking for magic users.

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@shroudofsorrow said:

@mordhauextreme1: I think that was in response to my warrior rankings. This is my ranking for magic users.

Oh sorry, let me look. Looks solid to me as of now :D

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shroudofsorrow

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@mordhauextreme1: Thanks. Also, is Skarsnik a magic-user? If so, where would he rank?

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shroudofsorrow

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Cheth

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Don't think Lileath should be as low as she is in her full power, though don't think she should be ranked at all with full power, as she's a goddess and it'd be like ranking Sigmar, Tzeentch or Usorian

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shroudofsorrow

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Cheth

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shroudofsorrow

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Blackmageleo

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I always had the impression Great demons and Slanns were in a tier of their own, especially Tzeentch ones, so Kairos probably be on the top 5.

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shroudofsorrow

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@blackmageleo: In general they are, but a few magic users who are neither are of comparable power levels. Namely, Teclis, Caledor the Dragontamer, and Nagash.

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Cheth

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Few thoughts: Any of the Slann should be above any of the other characters. Except maybe prime Be'lakor

Drachenfels needs to be minimum another tier higher. Of Undead/Chaos characters he's only inferior to Nagash as a mage.

Fay Enchantress is > Arkhan

Tetto'eko stomps Belannaer, Katarin, Zacharias and arguably some of the others.

Skreech Verminking is > Vermalanx

Volans (first supreme patriarch) should be > Gelt

Thyrus Gormann should be above Elspeth

Blue scribes are an oddball in that they should be some of the most knowledgeable sorcerers in warhammer, but they aren't really. They don't know the spells as much as have scrolls with them, and they pick spells entirely at random. So tough call to put them that high.

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Cheth

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@shroudofsorrow:

(read above message too)

Other characters you could add are:

Burblespue Halescourge - who should be > Sienna. He also was about to cover an entire city in plague.

Rasknitt: Should be just as powerful, if not moreso, than Burblesque.

Nurgloth the Eternal - Should be around the tier of Dieter

The Hand of Nagash - should be superior to the likes of Elspeth, mannfred and vlad

Dread King - should be one of the greatest undead magic users alive. Mannfred and the Hand served him. But most importantly he rose undead from Nehekhara up to Kislev upon just awakening, mirroring Nagash's ascension (to a lesser extent of course). This includes awakening grail knights, thereby creating a group of black grail knights

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Cheth

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@shroudofsorrow: You could also potentially add Katam (hard to rank, should definitively be above the current lowest tier), Verspasian Kant (Sub Egrimm, but still the greatest wizard of the White Order currently, so minimum Elspeth level), Christoph Engel (high tier illusionist, should be alot above Sienna)

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shroudofsorrow

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@cheth said:

Few thoughts: Any of the Slann should be above any of the other characters. Except maybe prime Be'lakor

Be'lakor is above Kairos, Galrauch, and Nagash?

And I get thst the Slaan are powerful, but is it really the case that even minor Slaan characters are above the likes of Teclis and Nagash?

@cheth said:

Drachenfels needs to be minimum another tier higher. Of Undead/Chaos characters he's only inferior to Nagash as a mage.

Fay Enchantress is > Arkhan

So he's above even Arkhan and Mannfred? Hm.

Yes, I believe I saw you mention several times that the Fay Enchantress sent Arkhan packing. For some reason I thought maybe he had beaten her once.

@cheth said:

Tetto'eko stomps Belannaer, Katarin, Zacharias and arguably some of the others.

Skreech Verminking is > Vermalanx

Dang. The Skink's tougher than I thought. Katarin is one of THE top Order-aligned human spellcasters in the setting. For him to be good enough to stomp her, that's pretty crazy.

So Skreech is a magic-user and a fighter is he? Didn't know that.

@cheth said:

Volans (first supreme patriarch) should be > Gelt

Thyrus Gormann should be above Elspeth

Blue scribes are an oddball in that they should be some of the most knowledgeable sorcerers in warhammer, but they aren't really. They don't know the spells as much as have scrolls with them, and they pick spells entirely at random. So tough call to put them that high.

Near as I can tell, Volans was only ever mentioned in one of the RPG books. What did he do to put him above Balthasar Gelt?

Guess the Blue Scribes should be lower. I took them for better.

I already decided to add Halescourge and Rasknitt. Thanks for telling me about the others. Didn't know they existed. What about Neferata?

Also, what did the Hand do to put him above Mannfred? The latter seems like a far more important/valued servant of Nagash. Nagash even went to the trouble of bringing him back despite hating his guts, which he didn't do for the Hand. It suggests to me that Mannfred was considered the better asset (even when, again, Nagash hated him).

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Cheth

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@shroudofsorrow:

Be'lakor is above Kairos, Galrauch, and Nagash?

Peak Be'lakor might be. Its a bit unclear how strong he was, but he had an unprecedented amount of powers granted from the four gods, after his betrayal they made sure to seperate it broadly. So he should be the strongest chaos follower ever. The Be'lakor we usually see in stuff like Asavar's invasions and ET is exceptionally weakened.

And I get thst the Slaan are powerful, but is it really the case that even minor Slaan characters are above the likes of Teclis and Nagash?

Minor slann still can move mountains, and are stated the greatest mages in the world several times over. Teclis touched one of their minds and got scared, and peak pre-ET Nagash was stated to be "surely defeated" if he tried fighting even Southlands Slann (who's strongest is 3rd generation at best). Maybe peak ET Nagash beats 5th or maybe 4th, but all the 1st, 2nd and almost definitively 3rd stomp him.

So he's above even Arkhan and Mannfred? Hm.

Drachenfels is a Nagash and Sigmar level threat, not an Arkhan or Mannfred

Yes, I believe I saw you mention several times that the Fay Enchantress sent Arkhan packing. For some reason I thought maybe he had beaten her once.

Arkhan did kill her as a sacrifice, but it was Drycha and an army which captured Fay, so she was defenceless against arkhan at the time.

Dang. The Skink's tougher than I thought. Katarin is one of THE top Order-aligned human spellcasters in the setting. For him to be good enough to stomp her, that's pretty crazy.

Tetto'eko is held in the same regard as slann and casually tosses comets so yeah ;D

So Skreech is a magic-user and a fighter is he? Didn't know that.

Most daemons are spellcasters, even Khorne daemons have some abilities. And Skreech is noted to be the most powerful verminlord

Near as I can tell, Volans was only ever mentioned in one of the RPG books. What did he do to put him above Balthasar Gelt?

He's noted in two actually xD. Volans was the first supreme patriarch, and trained by Teclis himself. But most importantly is that he is the only human ever noted capable of seeing all eight winds even pre-Teclis, and that he survived early experiments of using them all without being corrupted (but he did realise that he could not actually use all 8 without being corrupted). Note that a patriarch mage that later accessed a magical book containing some of Volans knowledge instantly went insane, caused a storm of magic to appear that heavily amped every wizard in Altdorf (every wizard was stated to be 10x stronger), and casually wielded all 8 winds.

Guess the Blue Scribes should be lower. I took them for better.

The blue scribes hold the most magic knowledge of anyone (except maybe Tzeentch and Kroak) in warhammer, and theoretically should be top 10 due to that. But they have an inability to use it effectively. Every spell is picked at random, so they might pick a useless one, a mid one, or a super high tier one.

I already decided to add Halescourge and Rasknitt. Thanks for telling me about the others. Didn't know they existed. What about Neferata?

Fair lol, many are oddballs/fairly unknown that I know from playing the games/my research/reading novels. Not quite sure where I rank Neferata, she's an odd one to rank since she doesn't really do much fighting or magic herself. I'll get back to you.

Also, what did the Hand do to put him above Mannfred? The latter seems like a far more important/valued servant of Nagash. Nagash even went to the trouble of bringing him back despite hating his guts, which he didn't do for the Hand. It suggests to me that Mannfred was considered the better asset (even when, again, Nagash hated him).

Well first of thats AoS lore, so kind of not relevant to Warhammer Fantasy rankings (as characterizations, lore and powers are fundamentaly different). But since I don't want to just use that excuse when its brought up, two things to note anyways:

- By that logic Mannfred (and Neferata) both must be > Vlad, Abhorash, Zacharias, Walach Harkon, Usirian, the Dread King, and any other undead. And we know for a fact he's below most of these.

- Mannfred was chosen because 1: he's the most like Nagash himself in personality, and for some reason AoS Nagash is sentimental and wants a son apparently. 2: His personality matches Nagash's needs. Whereas Arkhan is a bad tactician and just feeds into enemies loyally (since AoS made him an idiot. Note that he's consistently smarter than Mannfred in WH), Mannfred will always think about himself first and live to fight another day. And since he's also a scheming and lying rat, he and Neferata cancel each other out, preventing either from conspiring against Nagash. So its not about power, skills, or anything like that. Its about Mannfred being a scheming coward and Nagash needing one.

Meanwhile there are several reasons why the Hand is superior to Mannfred:

1. The Dread King searched for three things to take over the world; His own necklace which multiplies his power significantly (note: that means that the Dread King that Mannfred serves is significantly weakened from prime), the Black Grail, and The Hand of Nagash. Mannfred on the other hand serves as a minion for him that tries to find his necklace. The Hand was supposed to be working alongside the Dread King, while Mannfred was a servant to them.

2. The same group that defeated Mannfred within Drakenhof itself, hired a group of ogres to help them, and then still thought they needed the added reinforcements of an Ice Mage and an army of norscan horseriders with battleaxes.

3. Even Katarin was afraid of the Hand's power

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shroudofsorrow

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@cheth said:

@shroudofsorrow:

Be'lakor is above Kairos, Galrauch, and Nagash?

Peak Be'lakor might be. Its a bit unclear how strong he was, but he had an unprecedented amount of powers granted from the four gods, after his betrayal they made sure to seperate it broadly. So he should be the strongest chaos follower ever. The Be'lakor we usually see in stuff like Asavar's invasions and ET is exceptionally weakened.

Well, when I ranked Be'lakor, I was thinking of him as he appears in present day canon, so it would be the "weakened" version.

@cheth said:

And I get thst the Slaan are powerful, but is it really the case that even minor Slaan characters are above the likes of Teclis and Nagash?

Minor slann still can move mountains, and are stated the greatest mages in the world several times over. Teclis touched one of their minds and got scared, and peak pre-ET Nagash was stated to be "surely defeated" if he tried fighting even Southlands Slann (who's strongest is 3rd generation at best). Maybe peak ET Nagash beats 5th or maybe 4th, but all the 1st, 2nd and almost definitively 3rd stomp him.

Well, Adohi-Tehga and the one who's name is impossible to pronounce are both "second spawning", so I assume that means they're 2nd generation. I don't think Tenuchli's generation is specified.

@cheth said:

Arkhan did kill her as a sacrifice, but it was Drycha and an army which captured Fay, so she was defenceless against arkhan at the time.

Dang. The Skink's tougher than I thought. Katarin is one of THE top Order-aligned human spellcasters in the setting. For him to be good enough to stomp her, that's pretty crazy.

Tetto'eko is held in the same regard as slann and casually tosses comets so yeah ;D

OK, so he never beat her in a proper fight. Got it. Am perplexed as to why Drycha would throw in with the undead though.

Fair enough on Tetto'eko.

@cheth said:

So Skreech is a magic-user and a fighter is he? Didn't know that.

Most daemons are spellcasters, even Khorne daemons have some abilities. And Skreech is noted to be the most powerful verminlord

Near as I can tell, Volans was only ever mentioned in one of the RPG books. What did he do to put him above Balthasar Gelt?

He's noted in two actually xD. Volans was the first supreme patriarch, and trained by Teclis himself. But most importantly is that he is the only human ever noted capable of seeing all eight winds even pre-Teclis, and that he survived early experiments of using them all without being corrupted (but he did realise that he could not actually use all 8 without being corrupted). Note that a patriarch mage that later accessed a magical book containing some of Volans knowledge instantly went insane, caused a storm of magic to appear that heavily amped every wizard in Altdorf (every wizard was stated to be 10x stronger), and casually wielded all 8 winds.

Well, that's a bit vague, but I suppose we could consider Skreech to be high by implication at least.

Which patriarch did the above? Either way, yes, that would imply Volans is quite powerful, since he could presumably do the same thing this other patriarch did and potentially more.

@cheth said:

Also, what did the Hand do to put him above Mannfred? The latter seems like a far more important/valued servant of Nagash. Nagash even went to the trouble of bringing him back despite hating his guts, which he didn't do for the Hand. It suggests to me that Mannfred was considered the better asset (even when, again, Nagash hated him).

Well first of thats AoS lore, so kind of not relevant to Warhammer Fantasy rankings (as characterizations, lore and powers are fundamentaly different). But since I don't want to just use that excuse when its brought up, two things to note anyways:

- By that logic Mannfred (and Neferata) both must be > Vlad, Abhorash, Zacharias, Walach Harkon, Usirian, the Dread King, and any other undead. And we know for a fact he's below most of these.

- Mannfred was chosen because 1: he's the most like Nagash himself in personality, and for some reason AoS Nagash is sentimental and wants a son apparently. 2: His personality matches Nagash's needs. Whereas Arkhan is a bad tactician and just feeds into enemies loyally (since AoS made him an idiot. Note that he's consistently smarter than Mannfred in WH), Mannfred will always think about himself first and live to fight another day. And since he's also a scheming and lying rat, he and Neferata cancel each other out, preventing either from conspiring against Nagash. So its not about power, skills, or anything like that. Its about Mannfred being a scheming coward and Nagash needing one.

Meanwhile there are several reasons why the Hand is superior to Mannfred:

1. The Dread King searched for three things to take over the world; His own necklace which multiplies his power significantly (note: that means that the Dread King that Mannfred serves is significantly weakened from prime), the Black Grail, and The Hand of Nagash. Mannfred on the other hand serves as a minion for him that tries to find his necklace. The Hand was supposed to be working alongside the Dread King, while Mannfred was a servant to them.

2. The same group that defeated Mannfred within Drakenhof itself, hired a group of ogres to help them, and then still thought they needed the added reinforcements of an Ice Mage and an army of norscan horseriders with battleaxes.

3. Even Katarin was afraid of the Hand's power

Well, regarding Abhorash, his final fate in the End Times is left unclear, and he also has a code of honor that doesn't mesh well with Nagash. But yeah, there are other undead characters who are above Mannfred.

In any case, you've done a solid job of arguing for The Hand being better than Mannfred.

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Cheth

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@shroudofsorrow:

Well, when I ranked Be'lakor, I was thinking of him as he appears in present day canon, so it would be the "weakened" version.

Ah fairfair

Well, Adohi-Tehga and the one who's name is impossible to pronounce are both "second spawning", so I assume that means they're 2nd generation

yup

I don't think Tenuchli's generation is specified.

Nope, would assume he's 4 or 5

OK, so he never beat her in a proper fight. Got it. Am perplexed as to why Drycha would throw in with the undead though.

Drycha is completely insane, so she consistently does dumb stuff like that lmfao

Well, that's a bit vague, but I suppose we could consider Skreech to be high by implication at least.

Thanquol stated that Verminking was more powerful than Vermalanx when both stood before him as well :)

Which patriarch did the above? Either way, yes, that would imply Volans is quite powerful, since he could presumably do the same thing this other patriarch did and potentially more.

Horx, shows up in less sources than Volans tho lol

In any case, you've done a solid job of arguing for The Hand being better than Mannfred.

thank you :)

Note: If you still disagree with any of my notions you can also tag in Mordhau/Cergic so we can get their opinions as well. Don't want to pressure you into holding my stances

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