For some reason, tags ain't working.

Regardless - Impressive! I'll check it out. Several names i don't even recognize

@cergic: Thanks!

Yeah, I tried to include as many big names as I could find, but I almost certainly got exact tierings wrong.

What do you think of the Top 25? Would you say its about on point? If not, what suggestions would you make?

@mordhauextreme1, @six-deuce: Thoughts on my list?

@shroudofsorrow: solid list :P

@mordhauextreme1: Thank you. Any specific suggestions beyond the ones you already gave in PMs?

@shroudofsorrow: No imo and crap i need to check the PMs again i went to bed i think after I read the last

@mordhauextreme1: So you'd say Caledor the Conqueror is top tier? That was one of the ones I was unsure of.

@shroudofsorrow: Yes due to his fight against Malekith who is also up there in tier

@mordhauextreme1: OK.

I actually forgot to consider the following:

• Pre-Sundering Malekith
• Be'lakor
• Mannfred
• Rakarth
• Alith Anar
• Archaon's lieutenants (Feytor, Melekh, Haargroth, and Styrkaar)

Would any of them crack the Top 100? And if so, where?

@shroudofsorrow: Be'lakor could since he fought EoS Gotrek, but the rest no

@mordhauextreme1: Not even Malekith? Was he really so weak before becoming a Dark Elf?

And I guess Archaon's lieutenants are weaker than I thought. So even Tretch and Throt are above them?

Also, how well did Bel'akor do against Gotrek? because if he challenged him, then he should probably be Top 25.

@shroudofsorrow: No he just didn't have another 1k years to grow and such

Oh shoot my bad I misread your comment, I meant they weren't in the top 25, Be'lakor is top 25, the rest are all over and Id have to think of where to place some especially someone like Pre-sundering Malekith

@mordhauextreme1: Ah. So they DO make the Top 100. That apply for all of them? Alith Anar actually seems to be much more of an archer than a melee fighter.

@shroudofsorrow said:

Yeah and he is, hes always preferred range rather than melee, and for the rest yeah id have to sit and think on it for a bit

@mordhauextreme1: Should also think of probably adding Red Duke and Louis the Righteous. I figure they might also make the Top 100...somewhere.

@shroudofsorrow: Red Duke is kinda featless, so no real sense of adding him in his brother Louis has some feats, but is kinda meh as well. Don't get me wrong theyre both solid fighters but I wouldnt bother trying to make a case for them

@mordhauextreme1: Fair enough.

Although, I think the Red Duke does have some feats (killing numerous warriors in Araby before becoming undead, beating his son in a duel, etc.). Not necessarily Top 100 worthy, but I wouldn't say he's featless.

@mordhauextreme1: Any sense now of where Pre-Sundering Malekith and Archaon's lieutenants rank in the Top 100?

Good overall ranking, its tough to do so, but I have some thoughts if you don't mind:

Can't at all see Nagash > Settra in melee only

Can't see any Everchosen being below any other chaos champions

Based Arbaal placement

Can't see Ungrim/Louen that high tbh

Why are Valkia/Gilles/Vlad so low?

Feel like belegar and the skaven are way too high tbh

There's more but I don't want to just spam lol

Edit: Note that my critisism here is very light. Making top 10s are hard, making top 100 is nearly impossible in a way where everyone would agree

Fought Sigmar and did well, or so I've been told. In any case, this could just mean Settra is also on that tier, I'm not sure.

Based?

I didn't think all Everchosen were perfectly equal. Arbaal and Dechala did well against Tyrion at his best, so they should logically be on roughly the same tier (and Tyrion at his best is absolutely Top 25). Skarbrand and Ka'Bandha likewise seemed to have more feats than Morkar.

Ungrim is supposed to be the best Dwarf warrior of them all other than Gotrek and Grombrindal, soloing armies on the regular. I think he cracks Top 25. Louen meanwhile could kill Nurgle's greatest champion and is one of the very best non-Chaos human warriors in the setting. If he isn't Top 25, I'd say he's just shy of it.

Vlad, so I've been told, is more of a leader first and a warrior second, and isn't actually as top tier as I initially thought. Valkia isn't really low; she's in the second highest tier, the same level as Sigvald, who I consider to be basically Valkia's Slaanesh equivalent.

Pre-GK Giles was killed by a common arrow, which is the origin of Bretonnia's "we hate ranged weapons" attitude. I therefore felt he was analogous to Taurox the Brass Bull: a fierce melee fighter yes, but can be brought down by a well aimed arrow, as Taurox was. Basically, his lack of durability makes him more of a glass cannon than a lot of the others in my view.

Verminlords are supposed to be comparable to Greater Daemons and Skreech is the deadliest of them all. Queek and Belegar are on roughly the same level based on their fights, and Snikch is the deadliest assassin the Skaven have. He was, after all, the one who killed Thorgrim Grudgebearer. I don't think they're too high personally.

Glad to get some feedback though. And actually, this list needs to be updated again.

Gonna be honest I have no idea how to quote singular parts like you do lol:

Nagash had his magic against Sigmar. But I don't necessarily mind Nagash being high up, just don't think he should be above Settra and Alcadizaar who outperform him in melee only. (Except God Nagash who potentially could overpower Alcadizaar physically)

Oh I would definitively agree each Everchosen is different in power. But I wouldn't say that other champions would be > any of them. Especially since for example Arbaal lived at the same time as most if not all of them, and it seems counterintuitive for any chaos champion to be above the present everchosen.

While I agree Ungrim is respectable, soloing armies is something most characters in the tiers bellow Ungrim is placed is capable of. So would argue Settra and Chakax for example stomping greater demons are better. As for Louen thats fair, but I wouldn't say it puts him above the likes of Valten who performed similarly (but in fairness, was losing) before even getting Ghal Maraz against the same opponent.

Vlad is mainly a leader and is known to be a bit careless due to his ring yeah. But he's definitively a great warrior and duelist who can casually stomp Mannfred seconds after being ressurected and not even kowing whats going on, casually disarm Isabella while she's infested by a greater demon who directly counters undead, and is noted as the greatest vampire in the entire world by Nagash himself. Especially Harkon being above him seems unlikely.

While fair on it not really being low, and in afterthought I might actually agree she should be in that tier, and moreso disagree with some of the people placed above her, I would be hesitant to say she's Sigvald's equivalent, as she's not just a chaos champion but a demon princess too, and I would say her performance against Mortkin (who imo should be added to the list as well) puts her well above his level.

Was it ever confirmed to be a "common" arrow? While we do know it was an arrow we have seen plenty of enchanted arrows and the likes, the shooter was unknown and considering Gilles survived being hit directly by a ballista it seems unlikely it was a regular one.

I have forgotten all about Belegar fighting Skreech tbh. How did the fight go in rough terms?

oh and based basically means "up" or I strongly agree

@cheth said:

You just quote the same post over and over again, delete sections of it, and type your response in-between the quotations.

Didn't know who Alcadizaar is. As for Nagash, my understanding is that it wasn't just magic, that his level of sword skill was such that he legit challenged Sigmar to a degree that surprised the latter.

Was he alive at the same time as Morkar? If not, then I could say he's still above Morkar. Similarly, Vardek Crom was after Morkar's time, so there shouldn't be a contradiction there.

But that's contradicted by Vlad himself proclaiming Abhorash "the best of them", and indeed his skills are vastly better. In any case, Vlad being the greatest Vampire is too vague a term; it could refer to being the greatest as a leader (which he is), the greatest as a combination of might and magic (as Abhorahs lacks the latter), etc. I don't think we can just assume Vlad is a top tier swordsman based on that quote.

As for Harkon, Vlad did kill him, but through magic. That he went that route might suggest he didn't fancy his odds against him in melee.

Well regardless, just shy of the Top 25 is where she's at. Didn't know who Mortkin was, but I can add him to that same tier.

Did he take the ballista hit as the Green Knight or before? Because Green Knight Giles is obviously superior to pre-Green Knight.

I kind of assumed it was a common arrow because of the level of intense disgust and shame Bretonnia felt over it. If it had been, say, an obviously magical arrow, that might have just turned Bretonnia off to magical projectiles. But the fact that they developed an intense hatred for ALL arrows, suggests to me it was something more mundane than, say, the super-arrows the Sisters of Twilight use.

Did I say Skreech? I meant to say Queek if I did. Queek beat Belegar and killed him, but the latter wasn't at his best at the time, and in an earlier encounter when Belegar wasn't tired or injured, he won, albeit not easily. So I kind of assume the two are comparable.

Nagash definitively is a good duelist, but I doubt he's quite on that level. Although still impressive since Nagash was also severly weakened at the time

You could say it, but it seems intuitively wrong at least imo that the everchosen who challenged Sigmar was the weakest by so much he's sub aligned champions. Though like i said thats just my take :)

Vlad proclaimed Abhorash the greatest duelist and he without a doubt is. But considering how important dueling is to vampires I still think it should count. Vlad also managed to fight the greatest demon of Nurgle fairly well while weakened.

Vlad had to kill him with magic since the fight started with Harkon pinning him under his dragon. The fact that Harkon was unwilling to challenge him in a duel directly despite favouring fighting on his own would suggest he feared Vlad if anything imo

Mortkin should probably be above Valkia, the chaos gods wanted to make him everchosen at the same time Archaon was gathering his relics

It was pre-green knight Gilles. Also I found out that it wasn't an arrow at all, it was a thrown arrow that hit him in the middle of a duel with an orc warboss

So that makes sense with the bastila feat, he gets hit by a hurled weapon (could be a throwing spear or similar) while fighting an orc warboss. Which means it could have been thrown by a superhuman orc as well

Yeah that makes sense on Queek and Belegar

Yep

Well to be fair, it was Mortal Sigmar rather than Sigmar when he came back during the End Times / had ascended to godhood (unless I'm making a lore error here)

If Vlad fought Plaguefather while weakened, that would scale him roughly to Louen, which is indeed very good.

Harkon is said to be the greatest of the Blood Dragons behind Abhorash. If true, he's definitely still among the best of the Vampire's melee fighters.

Whether slightly above or perfectly equal (and their fight suggests the latter), they would still be on the same tier. Being slightly above or below someone doesn't necessarily put you on a completely different tier. And since Valkia is firmly Khorne-aligned, she would never have been an Everchosen candidate, since they have to represent Chaos Undivided. I don't think that proves Mortkin is better in combat.

@cheth said:

It was pre-green knight Gilles. Also I found out that it wasn't an arrow at all, it was a thrown arrow that hit him in the middle of a duel with an orc warboss

So that makes sense with the bastila feat, he gets hit by a hurled weapon (could be a throwing spear or similar) while fighting an orc warboss. Which means it could have been thrown by a superhuman orc as well

Hm. Seems odd that Bretonnia Knights would become 100% anti-arrow because of a throwing spear incident.

In any case, I'd argue being felled by a throwing spear is still comparable to Taurox being killed by Markus Wulfhart's arrows. If anything the latter impresses me slightly more. Of course, its also wildly inconsistent with tanking a ballista shot. Hm...

Nah you're correct, its pre-god sigmar. but its the same that fought and beat Nagash.

Upon double-checking I realised i was wrong. Its was Gurug'ath, not the Plaguefather.

He is, just wouldn't put him > Vlad

Mortkin stalemated Valkia yes, but that was before the conquests which made him truly famous. And the point wasn't that Valkia could be everchosen, its that the chaos gods wanted Mortkin to be everchosen in stead of Archaon who was currently in possession of some of the everchosen treasures already.

Well I personally think that we should take the ballista shot, which we have full context of, as a showing of his durability over his death, which we know so little about and has negative context. It was in the middle of a duel, so maybe he was already weakened. It was a projectile we know nothing about, except it was noted to be "fell" which in fantasy settings usually refers to sorcery. And we don't know who hurled it, a superhuman orc, a demon, etc. maybe he didn't have his helmet on at the time and got a spear through his eye. We can't know. Imo we should use the clear showing over the unclear one.

Didn't Sigmar come back and fight Nagash again in the End Times?

Well that diminishes it somewhat, but I'd still say it proves Vlad is comparable to Louen, regardless of who we rank over who.

Fair enough, though fame =/= skill. I'd argue his skill level remained static even if his fame grew. Also, couldn't it be argued that Valkia also improved over time? In which case, they would still be about even.

Fair enough. I might bump pre-GK Gilles up a tier.

They never fought in ET no, I think they almost did but decided not to since Chaos was a priority.

Agreed

Valkia could have grown yes, but nothing necessarily indicates she did, and even intuitively it doesn't make much sense. She's already a fully realised demon princess, all her feats (pre-ET, which honestly are worse than her previous ones) are before the fight or the fight itself, etc. Meanwhile Mortkin at this time gained his initial fame through this and previous feats. After it he had a contest to be the ultimate champion of the gods (fighting the chosen champions of Khorne, Nurgle, and Slaanesh), bound a bloodthirster to his service, had multiple other champions pledge their loyalty, and killed an imperial noble who's own feats are compared to Sigmar. Its not just fame, its his greatest feats, all after he fought Valkia. And besides, the Archaon comparison would stand either way. If you disagree thats fair tho, in the end its your list

Based on Gilles

@cheth: Ah. Then that means I can probably knock Nagash down to Mortal Sigmar's tier. As for Mortkin, I think he's already in the 26-50 range, so he's probably already good where he is.