Top 35 Female Characters (My picks)

Who doesn't love strong, sexy, kick-butt women? I know I for one like them quite a bit. It's always a good thing to have good, well-written females out there in fiction as it is a good thing to have positive female role models in reality, and for me personally, the following are my absolute favorites. I expect to catch some serious flak for some of my choices and also for not including some other fan-favorites, to say nothing for who I rank ahead of whom. But, everyone's got their own preferences and tastes, and these are mine. I hope anyone who sees this will agree with at least some of my choices. And any disagreements people do have, try to keep it respectful, 'kay? I'm not asking that people love my list or to agree with every single choice, but I don't want a bunch of "Your list sucks!" or "You're an idiot!", or something similar to that. Basically, keep it civil (and yes, even on the internet, you can do that).

The list is in ascending order, and for fun, most of the images are gifs (which I've recently grown quite fond of).

35. Elizabeth "Lizzie" Bennet (Pride and Prejudice)

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Surprising choice to start off the list with, no? I definitely could have, if I wanted to, had this spot be filled by any one of a number of awesome superheroines that I would have loved to include on this list, but despite the name of this site I do actually like things other than Comic Books, and that includes some classic literature. Lizzie's story is sufficiently well-written that it (and she) stand out. It also happens to be one of the most iconic romance stories of all time, and with good reason; it's very well-written and the 1995 adaptation that the above gif is from is the best one.

In all honesty, Lizzie's basically her world's equivalent to a feminist considering how unafraid she is to speak her mind, especially against those of higher status who always seem out to derisively dismiss her or put her down based on her "inferior" position. She is also, of course, very witty and, as her father puts it: "has something more of a quickness, then her sisters". She's pretty too, as no doubt Mr. Darcy would attest.

34. Caitlin Snow (CW's The Flash)

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Who would have thought I'd end up liking so much a character depiction that is really just "in name only"? Maybe because, in Caitlin's case, that's an improvement. Instead of the sadistic, child-killing monster (and that's not hyperbole, she kills an innocent family before becoming Killer Frost) that we get in DC's New 52 continuity, the Caitlin Snow here is almost the total opposite. While outwardly cold and by her own admission "guarded", she comes to warm up considerably, and ultimately proves to be as much Cisco Ramone's comedic equal as she does his intellectual one. Honestly, I think I actually tend to prefer Caitlin's brand of humor (not that I don't also love Cisco), and her grieving the loss and then unwanted transformation of her fiancee (here much more amiable than he generally is in the comics), really helps to humanize her and make her very sympathetic. And, to top it all off, she's also straight-up gorgeous, easily rivaling Iris and Nyssa as the most attractive female character in the Arrow/Flash continuity (or at least I think so). So in all, a fine ally for CW's take on the Flash, and just good as a friend. And I will admit, that I do kind of wish "Snowbarry" as it's called happened, but oh well. She's still a good character either way, and I lament her inevitable transformation into the villainous Killer Frost. Nuts to that.

33. Black Widow (Marvel Comics)

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While I do definitely find the Black Widow fanwanking I've seen very, very annoying (especially for the MCU version pictured above), this does not mean that Widow herself is a bad character. Quite the contrary, the uncompromising and deadly superheroine and secret agent who has become pretty much the poster girl for "Sexy secret agent femme fatale in black" is definitely a cool character. I suppose one could make a case for the Baroness being as much a face for the archetype I just described, but I prefer Black Widow on the account of her not being a sadistic and evil terrorist.

Featuring a sordid and dark but also interesting backstory, and also managing to win (or else steal) the hearts of quite a few men in the Marvel Universe (Daredevil and Hawkeye to name just two), Black Widow's also a skilled fighter and markswoman and between it all has more than just good looks to recommend herself. And again, while I don't like the fanwanking, I do still think that the Scarlett Johansson take on the character is a good one, portraying her as still a troubled soul, but with a bit more of a sense of humor than what her 616 counterpart is usually want to show. Oh, and Black Widow's a ballerina too. Talk about being a woman of many talents, right?

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32. Batgirl III/Black Bat (DC Comics) and Gamora (Marvel Comics) (Tie)

Cassandra Cain and Gamora are here for the very simple but valid reason of both being a total badass. That's just all there is to it. As the absolute most skilled hand-to-hand fighters in DC and Marvel respectively, these two ladies pretty much forces of nature from a combat standpoint. How else do you explain such accomplishments as beating Lady Shiva twice and managing to top your own mentor (Batman!) in hand-to-hand, and for Gamora having so many hand-to-hand and physical showings she is not only Marvel's top martial artist, but also "The Most Dangerous Woman in the Galaxy". Not too shabby all in all.

Aside from their sheer badassery though, both are also kind of tragic characters, being the children (or, to be technical, foster child in Gamora's case) of merciless villains who were anything but kind and considerate parents, and as such both have some...issues, Cassandra especially.

As for Gamora, while I didn't appreciate how horrifically nerfed she was in the MCU, I do still think that Zoe Saldana did a good job with the role and helped make the MCU's Gamora a good character in spite of the awful, awful nerfing.

31. Leslie Tompkins (Gotham)

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No Gif for this one. Pity.

I've got nothing against the mainstream version of Leslie (well, actually, that's not entirely true. There is one moment with her that I find appalling on her part), but I kind of like the Gotham version of the character more, and not she's because she's pretty. She helps Gordon and Bullock with some of their cases, and not only that, but she is also a lot more casual, easygoing, laid-back, and ultimately "Closer to Earth" than the two main heroes of the show, which is good because it serves as a kind of refreshing foil to Gordon and especially Bullock's more troubled characters. Basically, Leslie proves that even in Gotham City, a hero need not be dour and screwed up. She is also a WAY better love interest for Gordon then the absolutely horrible Barbara Keane (one of my least favorite female characters ever), and also gets serious extra points for, in the Season 1 finale, getting to beat up Barbara in self-defense when that kook tries to kill her, even straight up punching her. So yeah. Go Leslie.

30. Kitana and Jade (Mortal Kombat, Tie)

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These two lovely ladies of Mortal Kombat fame happen to be my two favorite female characters in the series, and not just because of their hotness (though that is certainly a big reason). For Jade, I like how she was characterized in MK9, being portrayed as loyal to Kitana and also confident without (to me) coming off as too arrogant or haughty. She also just has some sweet weapons in the form of her glaive and that glowing purple staff that reminds me just a bit of a lightsaber.

For Kitana, the bladed fans are cool, and I also like her backstory as a Princess forced to serve an evil Emperor that she ultimately rebels against. I also have to give her points for being over 10,000 years old and still going strong. Come MK 10, she gets the opportunity to wield Jade's weapons in tandem with her own (win!) and also has some of the better dialogue exchanges in the game, particularly some amusing ones with Johnny Cage and a harsh but funny one with Kung Lao. And ultimately, princesses who can fight and kick butt tend to trump the ones who can't in my book, so there's also that.

29. Samara (Mass Effect)

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As the above Gif demonstrates clearly, Samara is a pretty powerful Biotic in her own right, rivaled in this respect only by her daughter Morinth and the convict Jack (more on the former later). Aside from her incredible power, Samara is also a tireless crusader against any and all perceived injustice and immorality, but personality-wise is not an annoying or holier-than-thou zealot. Rather, she is serene, graceful, and respectful at almost all times, having a calm tone even when angry or distraught (though then at least she usually still shows anguish in her voice). So, powerful and moral. Already we're off to a good start, and we haven't even mentioned her beauty. For a being over 900 years old, Samara still looks very beautiful, no less than her fellow (and much younger) Asari Liara. She also has a much sexier outfit on the account of the form-fitting red with the heels and V-neck. So in aesthetics she also impresses.

But what really cements Samara's position as one of the best, is not just her interesting and well-written moral outlook, her incredible Biotic power, and her hotness, but also her very tragic and sympathetic past, being the mother of a sadistic monster that she tasks herself with stopping no matter what. As if that wasn't tragic enough, she can also come to have feelings for Shepard but chooses not to act on them (talk about strong-willed, no other female in the Galaxy can resist him it seems). So bound is she to her code, for better and for worse, that she is unwilling to allow herself even that measure of happiness. So yeah. A pretty sad character all in all, and then manages to get even sadder still when one of the two daughters she had that was not evil dies, and Samara intends to kill herself to keep from killing her last daughter if not stopped. So yeah. All around a very good and interesting (and very compellingly sad) character, and no question, one of the very best party members in the whole Mass Effect trilogy.

28. Kasumi Goto (Mass Effect)

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And here's another of my favorite Mass Effect ladies, in the above gif mocking the ever-moronic Citadel Council, which also highlights one of my principal reasons for liking Kasumi: she's funny. Having a good sense of humor and levity even in fairly dark and seemingly bleak situations, Kasumi shows that not every one of Shepard's crew have to be grim, dour, and serious. Of course, Kasumi's being a text-book case of the "lovable rogue" archetype probably has something to do with this. That's also a character archetype that I (and many others besides) have a certain amount of fondness for, so that's another point in her favor. Her ability to temporarily make herself invisible is also a pretty nifty power and ability if I do say so myself, and I also like her overall outfit design, which does indeed harken to both cat burglars and also ninjas. Her alternate outfit (shown above), gives her the usually spiff black and red color scheme to boot.

Oh, and on top of all of the above, Kasumi also has fun shipping Shepard with various other party members. Not as much as others, unfortunately, but she usually has something nice to say about whoever Shepard chooses as their lover (in my Shepard's case, Miranda), and I like that because it feels like more often than not, Shepard's love life is totally ignored by everybody else. It's nice to have at least one character who acknowledges it (and approves!)

So yeah. Funny, optimistic, cheerful, and a lovable rogue with some neat tricks. Not sure what's to dislike about her.

27. Minerva McGonagall (Harry Potter)

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While I normally prefer female characters who have that winning combination of beauty, brains, badassery, and being on the side of right, one need not necessarily have the first one to be a great character. Case in point, Head of Gryffindor House and Transfiguration professor Minerva McGonagall. Outwardly stern and no-nonsense but ultimately fair and moral when all is said and done, McGonagall was also brilliantly portrayed by Maggie Smith, who made the character her own. And also, anyone who can lay a verbal smackdown on the ever-hatable Dolores Umbridge gets my vote hands down. And for those who want an example of that, I give you this:

"He has achieved high marks in all his Defense Against the Dark Arts tests..."

"I'm terribly sorry to contradict you, Minerva, but as you will see from my note, Harry has been achieving very poor results in his classes with me..."

"I should have made my meaning plainer," said Professor McGonagall, turning at last to look Umbridge directly in the eyes. "He has achieved high marks in all Defense Against the Dark Arts tests set by a competent teacher."

-Taken from Harry Potter: And the Order of the Phoenix

Yeah. That alone gets her a spot here, and frankly, I sort of wish I could rank her even higher up.

26. Oracle (DC Comics)

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Sadly, there was no Gif of Oracle to be had. For many, Barbara Gordon is surpassed only by Wonder Woman as the premiere DC Superheroine (many, I suspect, would rank her even higher). So her being #24 would likely come off as sacrilegious to some. But I personally regard this as a fair placing for her, since there were so many other characters I just couldn't put before her. But this doesn't mean that Oracle doesn't deserve a place on the Top 30. And yes, I specify Oracle and not Batgirl, because as the latter she's just one of many female members of the Batman Family to wear a cape and cowl, but as Oracle her role is more unique. It also shows a great deal of personal strength for her as a person that she could be so badly victimized and hurt by a monster only to refuse to submit, and instead find some other way to make herself vital to Batman's crusade. And of course, she founded her own superhero team that is sometimes at odds with Batman and other times among his allies. Whether acting on her own volition or helping other heroes she's close to, Oracle is possessed of a sharp mind and technical expertise that allows her to best foes in a way other than punching them. So yeah. Great character.

25. Arwen and Luthien (Tolkein's Mythos, Tie)

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Two Elven beauties from Tolkein's world who are tied because of their near-identical stories. Stories that have that "Interspecies Romance" appeal, but also a kind of bittersweetness. As Luthien and Arwen are of a race that does not die of natural causes, it makes their romances with mortal men doomed to, as Elrond puts it: "Face the bitterness of mortality". But it also (to me) highlights the crux of a valuable and precious relationship and also just life itself: the fact that it doesn't last forever. Without death, life cannot be fully appreciated. And I feel that, in the end, that's the message one can take away from the stories of these two female Elves, both of whom ultimately choose to follow their hearts and marry the men they love, even though they know it will one day have a tragic end. But the happiness before that makes it all worth it.

Oh, and then there's the fact that one (in the movie) swept the Nazgul away via flood while the other stole from Morgoth, who is Tolkein's equivalent to Satan. She could also send Sauron packing. So there's more to them then just their (very) good looks.

24. Psylocke (Marvel Comics)

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Okay, so Psylocke's backstory is the very definition of an inconsistent, convoluted mess. But, to offset that, she's a sexy purple clad (and purple haired) ninja with awesome telekinetic and telepathic powers, the ability to create a Psy-Blade (which to me is a lot like a lightsaber katana), and to top it all off martial arts skills sufficient to hold her own against Daredevil. So yeah. Not seeing what's not to love about all of that. There's also her romance with Angel (Warren Worthington III), which like the romances with Arwen and Luthien is ultimately a tragic one. For different reasons granted, but even so. The way it's portrayed in Rick Remender's Uncanny X-Force is particularly sad, especially the way the Archangel Saga comes to an end. Her sexual tension with Fantomex was also interesting to me. So in short, Psylocke is both a lover and a fighter, and that's usually a winning combination with me.

23. Black Canary (DC Comics)

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While I've never gotten on the "Black Canary can beat Batman in hand-to-hand" bandwagon, I do still freely acknowledge that her fighting skills are very much within his range, and frankly, that's more than enough to make her a badass in my book. She also has wit sufficient to match her primary love interest Green Arrow (a relationship I tend to like quite a bit), and was as much an inspiration for Barbara Gordon's superhero career as Batman himself was. It could perhaps be said that if Oracle is the main brain of the Birds of Prey, Black Canary is the primary fighting force. Strong, tough-as-nails, but also possessed of the compassionate side that is only fitting for a true superhero, Black Canary's a fan-favorite, and really, it isn't hard to see why. And about that sonic scream? When Black Canary's willing to use it, it causes some damn serious damage (I'm talking about destroying buildings, namely). Not bad.

22. Ms. Marvel I/Captain Marvel IV (Marvel Comics)

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Ms. Marvel is a badass. That's really all there is to it. Being very aware of this, Marvel has over the last decade or so been going out of the way to turn Carol into almost their Wonder Woman. And overall, I'd say they've been fairly successful. Carol Danvers is a military/government superhero who's actually likable (her stint as a Pro-Registration enforcer notwithstanding), and is also fairly powerful in her own right. Her costume is also one of the better female superhero costumes in my mind, and so is her current Captain Marvel costume. Yep, Carol's currently the (I think), fourth Captain Marvel, and every bit as cool for it. And let's not forget to mention her depiction in Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, where as voiced by Jennifer Hale she easily one of the best cartoon females ever. Again, just a total badass, as among other things her fight with Ronan shows pretty clearly. I particularly love when she takes him down, in the process pointing out how she and him have one thing in common: they're not one for surrendering.

21. Quorra (Tron: Legacy)

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I have to say, Tron: Legacy was pretty awesome. It proved to be a bit polarizing with critics and audiences, but it's definitely still gotten a following, one that I'm a part of. Still waiting on a sequel for it that we're supposedly getting ("supposedly" being the key word). But out of all the characters in the film, I have to say that the two I liked the best were the ever-badass Rinzler, and Quorra.

Aside from being incredibly attractive (and wearing a nice black leather outfit with glowing blue lines), Quorra is also the juxtaposition of a skilled warrior mixed with a wide-eyed innocent. Said archetype tends to be one I have mixed feelings about. When it works, (as it does with Quorra), it works well. When it doesn't, it can lead to a pretty annoying character.

But myself, I did not find Quorra to be annoying. I found her innocence and earnest desire to learn more about the world beyond the Grid endearing rather than irritating, and she also has the somewhat sad backstory of being the very last of her kind. And, for those who don't like token romances, take heart: Quorra and Sam's mutual attraction is there, but very subtle. Clearly, they are saving the majority of the romance for the sequel that is (again) supposedly coming.

Oh, and, in addition to everything else, Quorra also has a sword that looks a bit like a cross between a katana and a lightsaber. And as I've already made clear with Psylocke, that's always a cool weapon.

20. Storm (Marvel Comics)

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It's a sad fact that while Black superheroes are nowhere near the scarce sight Race Police often make them out to be, female Black superheroes unfortunately remain rare. But at least we have one very, very good one with the long-time X-Woman (and long-time fan-favorite), Storm.

Storm's gone through a few different characterizations over the years, but myself, I prefer the way she was in her early years as the sort of "naive newcomer", who's incredible power (and also fighting and thieving skills) stood in direct contrast to her very gentle, graceful, and overall innocent personality. Definitely far preferable to the obnoxious, abrasive, and overly confrontational b*** on wheels that she was in the 1980s, which also saw her sporting that terrible mohawk hairstyle. But thankfully, Storm eventually transitioned back to a more graceful and likable kind of character, but no longer quite as innocent or naive. She eventually married Black Panther, which I personally was not a fan of, but I suppose it is nice to see Storm as royalty once more.

Pictured above is the Halle Barry version of Storm, who I actually do like. A lot of people think it was a poor casting choice, but I personally think that Halle Barry did a good job playing a graceful and civil yet also powerful and resolute version of Storm who believes in Xavier's dream no matter how cynical things get. I didn't like her as much in X-Men 3 granted, but that was a bad movie overall. She came back strong in Days of Future Past, even if her role was overall minimal (unfortunately).

Still, overall, Storm is a fine character with some pretty awesome superpowers, and so long as she's not in her mohawk-wearing punk phase, is definitely one of my favorites.

19. Rogue (Marvel Comics)

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Rogue is my very favorite X-Woman, and that's owing mostly to the tragic tale that the character is fairly well-known for. Like a female Edward Scissorhands, she is unable to touch that which she loves and cares about without hurting it, and it's hard not to feel bad for someone in that kind of situation. Especially when Rogue herself does frequently become tragically self-loathing and ashamed of herself for who she is.

However, it's not all gloom for Rogue, since her powers do allow her to (if only temporarily), wield the powers of other superhumans she touches. Pretty sweet ability if I do say so myself, even if again, it comes at a terrible cost. While I do not like Rogue's romance with Gambit (mostly because I'm not a Gambit fan), I do very much like her romance with Iceman in the X-Men movies, and lamented it's being derailed in X-Men 3 (one of that film's many bad calls). But as that and the above gif show, I do also like the movie version of Rogue. Sure, she's not possessed of the combative power that her 616 version has, but the tragedy and sadness of the character is well-maintained, and I also (again) liked her romance with Iceman. They even found a clever way of giving her her iconic "skunk stripe", which I do admit to being a fan of. That, and I honestly think the actress who portrays Rogue looks kind of cute in the X-Men films.

Finally, Rogue has the distinction of changing costumes even more often than the average X-Woman, and honestly, I think most of them are actually pretty good, my personal favorites being her classic green and yellow with a brown coat and also her more recent green and white costumes. So yeah. One more point in her favor.

18. Esmeralda (Hunchback of Notre Dame, 1996 version)

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For more reasons than one, Hunchback of Notre Dame is, along with The Lion King one of my very favorite non-Pixar Disney films, owing to among other things it's darker tone, excellent songs, and also it's leading lady, who has the distinction of being my favorite Disney heroine.

Not quite one of the Disney Princesses in the traditional sense (and indeed not as much of a poster-child for Disney either), Esmeralda's still pretty darn hot, and benefits from being drawn a bit more..."adult", then many other Disney heroines. However, it's not just her beauty that makes her a favorite (considerable as that is), it's also her compassion and kindness to the point of a kind of saintly sort of selflessness. This is best shown in the song "God Help the Outcasts" (itself a well done song), and really drives home that she's got as much beauty on the inside as she does the outside. Furthermore, the fact that she is shown to be a bit skeptical regarding religious faith but is still very much moral, stands in direct contrast to the religious fanaticism and sociopathic disregard for life that is shown by Frollo. So she is ultimately a foil for the villain who develops a non-too-healthy obsession with her (an obsession a lot of people, creepily enough, misinterpret in the worst way, sometimes deliberately so).

She also, in a pinch, can handle herself when trouble comes her way, even if the soldiers that get sicced on her seem to have some serious mental impairments. And I also thought that Demi Moore (an actress who has unfortunately been saddled with more than her share of bad films), did a good job voicing the character. And of course, let's not forget the scene where she basically pole-dances (what? What do you mean it's for kids?)

17. Wyldstyle/Lucy (The Lego Movie)

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I'm going to freely admit without any shame whatsoever that The Lego Movie is one of my favorite movies of all time. And, with that in mind, it's not surprise that I took to it's leading lady.

Wyldstyle is awesome, being almost a LEGO expy of Trinity from The Matrix except frankly more well-done. Elizabeth Banks does a great job voicing the character and giving her at times confidence and sass, emotional vulnerability, and exasperation with Emmet's slow-wittedness, the latter of which leads to some pretty amusing interactions and scenes. My favorite of those in particular is probably Emmet's being so infatuated with Wyldstyle that when she's trying to explain something important to him he just hears her saying "blah, blah, blah". However, Wyldstyle's skill as a Master Builder is clear, and she represents in many ways the mindset of them as a whole: fiercely independent for both better and also for worse, and going from being unimpressed with Emmet to recognizing him as a true hero. Speaking of which, Wyldstyle gets her chance to be exactly that (something she'd always wanted), when she rallies the other Minifigures to fight back against President Business. This also, by the way leads to this great line:

"Today will not be known as Taco Tuesday...it will be known, as 'Freedom Friday!' (Beat) But still on a Tuesday!"

Another personal favorite of mine is the running gag regarding her name and how it leaves other characters mystified, along with Vitruvius' amusingly pointing out that this isn't the first time Lucy's changed her name either. But aside from being funny, this also shows a clear insecurity that she has that helps humanize her and flesh her out. Not bad for a small piece of plastic.

16. Elektra (Marvel Comics) and Karai (2012 TMNT Series) (Tie)

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Two very troubled Kunoichi who's tragic tales (along with beauty and badass martial arts skills), caught my fancy. And thus I had them tied for this spot.

For Elektra, she manages to easily rival her long-estranged lover Daredevil as not just a hand-to-hand fighter (indeed, Elektra has the habit of beating him soundly), but also in respects to just how dang screwed up her backstory and life are. Like a warped mirror image of Daredevil, the loss of Elektra's father inspired her to seek martial arts training and to become a warrior to ease the pain in her heart. However, where Daredevil came to supplement his training with a desire for justice that would make his father proud, Elektra embraced murder and bloodshed in the tragically and hopelessly deluded belief that it could ease the pain in her heart. Elektra's tragic tale then comes to an especially tragic end when she's murdered by Bullseye and dies in the arms of the man she hurt both emotionally and physically so, so many times.

But then Elektra came back, in one of the few comic book character resurrections I wholeheartedly support. However, because Comic Book characters can never get a happy ending, Elektra's second chance at life has proven no less fraught with tragedy and death than her first one, and she remains a cold-hearted killer that still flirts with villainy as often as she does heroism (though at least now she tries to walk that road too). And her fighting skills, man her fighting skills. Again, this is someone who made making Daredevil look like an amateur almost a hobby, and other foes she's bested include such names as Wolverine, Taskmaster, Cape Crow, and even her one-time killer Bullseye (and that was when she was drugged, among other things). So yeah. Elektra's a badass, and also one of the most tortured and troubled characters in comic books I've seen that isn't purely villainous. A woman who seems destined to be forever surrounded by death and bloodshed no matter how hard she tries to avoid it.

As for Karai, I am thinking specifically of the 2012 version, who is well voiced by Kelly Hu and has a character arc that, while more kid-friendly than the stuff Elektra's been through, has still been pretty rough all in all. The fact that she's been lied to her whole life after being taken from her real parents, set against her real father and his sons, kept prisoner after learning the truth, mutated into a snake monster and in the process reduced to a more feral and animalistic state of mind, and going by upcoming episodes (MAJOR SPOILERS) destined to become brainwashed by Shredder and let loose on the Turtles once again, it's clear this poor girl can never catch a break.

Merciless character journey aside, Karai had some good banter with Leonardo in her first appearance, regularly demonstrated sound fighting abilities that were no less than what the Turtles displayed (as evidenced by her fighting evenly with Leonardo and on one occasion Raphael at different intervals), and also just had a very good character design, even if the one half black, one half blonde hair maybe looks a little weird. She gets in some good snark here and there too, and between it all, kind of reminds me almost of Catwoman, especially in respects to her relationship with Leonardo. Whether or not Karai will get a long overdue happy ending after all the crap she's suffered remains to be seen, but here's hoping.

15. Spider-Woman (Marvel Comics)

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I will not spend too much time going on about Spider-Woman's current costume except to say that I hate it with a passion. Moving on.

You know, I generally don't like characters who are what I call "opposite gender knock-offs" of pre-existing characters. But I do like a few of them, and Spider-Woman is one of those few. The main reason for this is because, despite the name, she really doesn't have that much in common with my favorite superhero. Yes, they're both Spider-Totems. Yes, they've worked together before and are on a first name basis. But, let's look at some other things...

Costumes: Different (and no, them both wearing red is not enough to say they have very similar looks).

Backstories: Completely different. Jess' original backstory had more in common with Captain America then it did with Spider-Man (Fish out of Temporal Water, namely)

Powers: I don't see Spider-Man flying via glider wings or shooting venom blasts out of his hands, nor have I ever seen Jessica display a Spider-Sense or use webbing.

Personalities: Also different. While I wouldn't go as far as to say that Jessica's totally humorless, she is still definitely more serious, reserved, and stoic then Spider-Man is usually want to be. So yet another instance in which they are different.

So yeah. Spider-Woman she may be called, but ultimately, Jessica Drew is very much her own woman and not just a lazy female knock-off of Spider-Man, and I really do prefer that. Granted, if she had been more like Spider-Man and perhaps even been related to him in the vein of Spider-Girl, I might not have necessarily minded that. But even so, I like that Jessica can convincingly stand separate from her male counterpart, and how she's really more a part of the Avengers corner of the Marvel Universe then she is Spider-Man's. That said, I would be lying if I said I wouldn't want to see at least one story where the two Spider-People are an item, or alternatively her and Ben Reilly if they ever bring the latter back (which will probably be around the time pigs take to the air on wings, but still). And, though it kind of goes without saying, Jessica Drew also benefits from being seriously hot.

14. Invisible Woman (Marvel Comics)

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Considering she's both the heart and soul of the Fantastic Four and also it's most powerful member, this shouldn't be surprising. Sue's a great character, who's going from a pretty shallow Damsel-In-Distress with an "I broke a nail" personality to one of Marvel's premiere female superheroes. I sort of like to view Invisible Woman's positive character development and transformation as serving as an analogue to the progression of feminism (something that is still, as most feminists of any denomination will tell you, unfinished business). Invisible Woman is also, among her other credentials: a scientist like her husband, a strong-willed wife who briefly left her husband when he decided to stay on the fascist boat with Iron Jerk, a caring (and fiercely protective) mother of two, a Poor Man's Green Lantern on the account of her ability to create constructs in addition to force fields, and a capable leader or alternatively second-in-command. So yeah. Invisible Woman can do an awful lot, and, to borrow a line I heard elsewhere that I agree with wholeheartedly: "The only thing transparent about Susan Storm are her powers".

13. Eowyn (The Lord of the Rings)

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Honestly, that above Gif should be all the justification you need right there, but I'll give more anyways:

The fact that before she did the above, she actually managed to contend with the Witch-King in a duel despite being obviously afraid of him (that shows true courage)

The fact that before that she both decapitated his Fell Beast and (in the movie) took down a Mumakil much more quickly and easily than Legolas did.

The fact that she says one of the most true statements in the LotR trilogy: "The woman of this land learned ago, that those without swords can still die upon them."

So yeah. Eowyn's pretty badass. And while her attraction to Aragorn was ultimately unrequited, she did manage to find happiness with Faramir, who himself could have definitely used some after losing his brother and nearly being killed by his bats*** crazy father (who then dies as well). It's just a pity that Eowyn didn't get to participate in the final battle at the Black Gates. I suspect that had she, she would have impressed just as much. Who knows? Maybe she could have killed one or two more of the Nazgul while she was at it.

12. Hermione Granger (Harry Potter)

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It's been a while since I've been seriously in to Harry Potter, but I do still enjoy and like the franchise all the same. Perhaps not as passionately as before, but still. And of course, Hermione Granger is the Harry Potter series' premiere female character, and extremely popular in her own right. Hailing from a non-magical family (that she is ultimately and tragically forced to sever her ties with to protect), Hermione doesn't let that hinder her, and instead embraces the Wizarding World by having book smarts sufficient to put her two male friends to shame. Not only is she the unambiguous brains of the outfit, she also tends to be the one to inject common sense into her two closest friends whenever they get too pig-headed, and also tends to be the most amusingly sarcastic and deadpan of the bunch (a quality she shares with my other favorite Harry Potter female McGonagall).

Though initially a stickler for the rules, she becomes pretty willing to break them whenever necessary, and is also pretty darn resourceful when it comes to helping her friends (such as how she dealt with Umbridge in Order of the Phoenix). Her love-hate relationship with Ron that eventually sees the former win out is also a pretty well-done love story, and the very simple fact is, without her, both Ron and Harry would be long dead several times over. But then, that's what friends are for, isn't it?

11. Batwoman (DC Comics)

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Again, I'm usually not into Opposite-Gender Knock-Offs, but Batwoman is another exception to the rule, because well....she's a badass. And her costume is awesome (looks a lot like Batman Beyond's costume). And she's also an unfortunately uncommon example of a homosexual superhero that actually feels well-done (unlike, say, Northstar), and is also Jewish as it turns out, which gets extra points with me on the account of my own Jewish background and faith. So all in all a great superhero and character, one who's managed to carry her own book pretty well since the New 52 started up, where so many other books got the axe (including among others, Demon Knights, one I'm particularly sore about). Personally, I'm still waiting for the story where she and Catwoman have a romantic or at least flirtatious encounter. I can't be the only one who thinks it would be awesome.

Really do wonder why the artists these days always make her complexion so ghostly white though. It's kind of creepy to be honest.

10. Zatanna (DC Comics)

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And now we're at the Top 10, starting with Zatanna.

I've said this before elsewhere, but I'll say it again here: there's just no beating a sexy magician. Or, I suppose technically there is, since there are eight other spots on the Top 30 after this one, but still. And not only is Zatanna the quintessential sexy magician and my personal favorite example of the "Hot Witch" archetype, she's also incredibly powerful on the account of (at least in mainstream continuity), being able to do almost anything and everything she wants just by saying it backwards. I suppose you could liken her to a plot device, but she's still a pretty cool one all in all. An expert in not just some seriously powerful magic but also traditional "Stage Magic" that she enhances with her powers. A performer by nature, Zatanna is also friendly, easygoing, laid-back, casual, and is generally one for having a good time. Seems like a pretty nice personality to me. Sure, she erased her childhood's friend's memories, but to her credit she did feel bad about that and the two eventually made nice in the end (as true friends do). While I'm not sure I would necessarily like seeing Zatanna and Batman as a couple (I'm far too much of a Bruce/Selina shipper for that), I'd also probably say I'd prefer her as a love interest for the Dark Knight then Talia al Ghul, Viki Vale, or worse, any of Bruce's (many) throwaway love interests. So there is that.

But Zatanna need not have a boyfriend to be interesting. Paul Dini in particular seems to share that sentiment based on the very apparent crush he has on the character that saw him write her frequently and even give her her own series (but then when your wife is a stage magician who dresses almost exactly like Zatanna, it's not hard to see why this is). And generally sweet and pleasant as she is, Zatanna's backstory does have some tragic stuff with her lost father, who she's actually had to see die more than once. So yeah. It's not all sunshine and rainbows for the Mistress of Magic, but from a writing standpoint that's probably for the best. All in all, I like Zatanna. But again, it's hard to beat a sexy magician, especially one as hot, powerful, and also as nice and compassionate as she is.

9. Toph (Avatar: The Last Airbender)

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Well, as the above gif pretty clearly demonstrates, Toph can kick some serious butt. Her claim of being the greatest Earthbender in the world also has weight, and if nothing else, she does rank among the absolute best. That, and as both a little girl and an old woman in Legend of Korra, she's funny. A lot of this is owing to how comically tough-as-nails and blunt she can be, and also how she's just so not sentimental, in contrast to the way that Aang and Katara sometimes get. Her particular approach to training first Aang and later Korra is quite amusing, as are her nicknames for Katara ("Sugar-Queen" being my favorite). And not to mention, this is the girl who discovered metalbending, and in so doing overcame what had long been every Earthbender's biggest weakness. Even her being a rich person's rebellious kid has an interesting wrinkle to it, in that Toph actually does know how to be a proper lady and show etiquette...she just chooses not to because she finds it more fun that way. And considering how lovable she is with her general personality, it's hard to disagree with that assessment. Overall, Toph is my favorite female character from the original Avatar show by a significant margin, and is actually my second favorite female from the overall franchise. Who's number one you ask? Just keep reading and you'll see.

8. Agent Carter (Marvel Cinematic Universe)

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I know Peggy Carter is also a character in 616, but for me personally, I am specifically drawn to her MCU incarnation, where she is played brilliantly by Hayley Atwell. Now, I liked Peggy enough in Captain America: The First Avenger, but that wasn't what caused her to rank so high up. No, that would be the Agent Carter mini-series, which tragically did not get the ratings it deserved (but thankfully got renewed for a second season anyway).

Peggy is awesome. She's a pretty brunette with a sexy British accent and a tough-as-nails and sarcastic but also still compassionate and noble personality that is so well fleshed out in her mini-series. Peggy is so well humanized in it as a person who actually does have a bit of a life beyond her being, well, an Agent, and she's also an empowered female in a misogynistic world without it coming off as too heavy-handed. She can be bitter at times, but never unsympathetically so, and her sarcasm does get pretty funny too. I also like how she is depicted as being in mourning for her love without being weak, and concerning her non-romantic relationships with men who respect her (tragically in short supply), she has excellent, excellent chemistry with Edwin Jarvis.

Not only is she beautiful, empowered, and amusingly sarcastic, but Peggy's also pretty darn badass. For someone living in a Superhero world who's not one herself, this is someone who could among other things fight evenly with a trained killer on top of a moving vehicle with a shot leg, and then fall off the vehicle and go tumbling along a concrete road...and get up afterwards and run away. With a shot leg. Seriously. Talk about your endurance. For another example of that, Peggy later takes multiple swings from a baseball bat without much in the way of injury (something people in real life just don't do), and what makes it even more astonishing was that these were swings from a baseball bat coming from someone strong enough to effortlessly break a grown man's neck, meaning the swings are coming even harder. And still Peggy fights. Talk about being a tough customer.

I think I've summed it up quite nicely. MCU Peggy Carter kicks some serious, serious butt, and I anxiously await the second season of Agent Carter.

7. Wonder Woman (DC Comics)

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This one's a no-brainer. So much so that her being just shy of the Top 5 would likely come off as complete sacrilege to most. But being just shy of the Top 5 is still pretty impressive in my book, and really, there's a lot to love about Wonder Woman that goes beyond the (pun intended) godly sex appeal and also costume that is simultaneously memetic, revered, and reviled depending on who you ask (myself, I lean towards the former two).

Incredibly powerful (as in, often played up as being in Superman's ballpark kind of powerful), deeply immersed in the ever-interesting (and marketable) Greek Myths, and also being when necessary a highly skilled fighter, tireless and fearless warrior, and in a pinch, a good leader, Wonder Woman's got a lot going for her. That, and she's also just so iconic as the first major female superhero and for a lot of people, the first. She also happens to be my favorite female superhero ever (or at least, favorite comic book character that is consistently a superhero), and so between it all it's not hard to see why I and many others adore her so much.

One aspect where Diana has been a lot less lucky in is love, but this actually does add a tragic element to the character, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. I don't love her relationship with Superman to be honest, but her attraction to Batman in the DCAU was interesting (and amusing at times). Finally, while I kind of wish they'd gone with a God other than Zeus for her father in the New 52 (Ares perhaps?), making Diana a literal child of the Gods is a good move in my book, since she's already as I said deeply immersed in Greek Mythology. Why not go all the way?

And finally, to top off all the reasons why I love Wonder Woman, she's an Amazon who is (at least when written by someone other than Frank Miller) not a bloodthirsty, man-hating psychopath who views the male sex as the spawn of the devil, but instead believes that the males of Earth can be made better than they are and shown a better way. What's not to love about that?

6. Meetra Surik, the Jedi Exile (Star Wars, Legends Continuity)

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As a huge Star Wars fan and in particular a fan of the Old Republic Era, I have good reason to love the Jedi Exile of KotoR II fame. That game also happens to be one of my very favorite video games (Star Wars or otherwise), of all time and Meetra is it's protagonist. One who you can choose to make either good, evil, or perhaps somewhere in-between the two (though canonically, she's Light Side and I do prefer that anyways).

Ultimately, Meetra has some traits in common with the protagonist of KotoR 1, Revan (who is also my favorite Star Wars character and second favorite fictional character behind Spider-Man), but is also different enough to stand on her own. This means she has the best of both worlds: enough in common with a major favorite of mine to make things I love about him apply to her, but also enough that is exclusive to her to make her stand out. More specifically, Meetra's story is one of redemption, but of a different sort than Revan. Where Revan forgot who he was and thus became a different person than the Sith Lord he'd been before, Meetra never forgets the blood she shed at Malachor V, and for the longest time, is unable to forgive herself. But with help from a mysterious old woman who starts as a friend and ends as a foe, Meetra not only regains her lost connection to the Force, she expands on it like never before and becomes a powerful Force user to rival Revan (or at least, Revan before his peak). And she does also come to at least partly forgive herself for what she did and turn into an almost saintly character who is determined to do as much good as she can, even in the face of her mentor's cynicism/nihilism. She also gathers to her other lost and tortured souls and turns many of them into full-fledged Jedi with whom the task of rebuilding the Jedi Order lies with. And, she ultimately takes down every last member of the Sith Triumvirate, and a hell of lot besides. So between all of those reasons, and also how she is one of the very, very few canonically female protagonists of any given Star Wars game, Meetra Surik gets my vote.

5. Yennefer of Vengerberg (The Witcher)

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I've only recently developed a serious interest in the very dark, very violent, and very morally gray world of the Witcher, with those above things often keeping me away from the series up until the more accessible Witcher 3 caught my attention. And along with the third entry, Yennefer caught my attention as well.

Where to begin? The magical power complete with a cool raven motif? The interesting backstory and well done romance story she is part of? Her sexy accent? Her wit? Her incredible beauty? All of these are certainly valid reasons, so let's start with the premise of the character: a quarter-Elf who is actually in her late nineties and later around 100 as the Witcher series progresses (though in the Video Game continuity she is absent until Part III). Implied in the books to have been born ugly and giving herself incredible beauty with magic, there is an air of tragedy to the character, which is highlighted by how she and her lover Geralt have been kept separate for so long, and how they've been getting together and splitting up and then getting together again. Normally, I hate love stories like that, but what I like about this one is the great sense of loyalty Geralt feels towards Yennefer, and his determination to be with her no matter what. However, what makes the story even better (and elevates it to one of my favorite romances ever), is in how Yennefer feels that Geralt's wish that they always be together actually does more harm than good, in that it makes her doubt the sincerity of their love. She wants them to be together, but only if it is their choice, not the magic of a Djinn. Thus, Yennefer seeks to undo the wish, leading to (assuming the player makes this choice) an incredibly sweet moment where Geralt and Yennefer both realize that their love remains every bit as strong and real as it was before.

So, aside from that excellent and complicated romance story she's a part of, what else does Yennefer have to her name? Well, her magic power for one, which gives her a few different nifty tricks and abilities to make use of, also allowing her to be the spells to Geralt's swords, so to speak. She also has a good capacity for wit as well, not being afraid to trade banter (and the occasional light mockery) with Geralt and poke fun at him, but never too maliciously. On top of those reasons, Yennefer also has a pretty sexy voice, a dignified English accent that the voice actress manages very well.

And of course, how can I sing Yennefer's praises, without mentioning the beauty she is renowned for in-universe? Generally, the black haired beauties (especially in Fantasy) are utter monsters; sadistic and evil femme fatales who's only beauty is on the outside. Yennefer's no saint (no one in the Witcher is), but she's hardly a monster, and especially when compared to other characters in the series. More to the point, Yennefer is truly beautiful, and her reputation for it is very well earned. She also plays it up nicely with her stylish black and white clothing that includes some nice fur, as well as black leather gloves, pants, and heeled boots. So obviously yes, Yennefer rocks on that front too.

Really, I'm not sure what else there needs to be said. I've developed a greater appreciation for the Witcher series of late (at least the third entry anyways), and Yennefer's a large part of the reason for that. So between that and everything else I've said, Yennefer gets my vote for the first lady in the Top 5.

4. Princess Leia (Star Wars)

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Anyone who knows me well enough should know that I am very much a Star Wars fan (several of my Avatars alone demonstrate this, to say nothing for everything else). So with that in mind, is it any wonder that I'm also a huge fan of the premiere Star Wars female?

The thing about Leia is that not only is she a fantastic heroine in her own right, but she also set the precedent for numerous other strong women in Star Wars to follow. Even so though, the first remains the best.

Possessed of an amount of Force potential equal to that of her brother and father, and coming to realize a good portion of it in the Legends continuity, Leia grew into an incredibly powerful Jedi, but before that she was still awesome as one of the champions of the Rebel Alliance, a crack shot with a blaster who per canon sources (and feats) almost never misses, a princess who took charge of her own rescue mission, and the woman who could both trade one-liners and snark with the sarcastic and outwardly cynical Han Solo, and also kill Jabba the Hutt. And she did the latter in a golden bikini too. Not bad.

In the end, Leia remains my favorite female Star Wars character, my favorite princess, and really just an overall favorite in general.

3. Asami Sato (The Legend of Korra)

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Talk about your characters who don't get their dues.

Stuck in a really, really, awful love triangle that for me ranks among the absolute worst of it's kind, emotionally mistreated by the man she gave her heart to free of charge and also betrayed her own father to stand alongside, and then oftentimes reduced to little more than a bit role in her show (barring a few brief turns in the spotlight here and there), Asami really did end up needing a heck of a lot more love than she got. Really, she was basically the show's whipping girl.

Now of course, this begs the obvious question: if she was so often relegated to a minor role and before that a love triangle that feels like it wandered out of a Soap Opera (or Twilight), why does she rank so high?

For starters, there's the fact that she's my type. She's incredibly beautiful on both the outside (for my money the most attractive female character in the entire mythos by a significant margin), and also the inside (being by far the most consistently nice, friendly, pleasant, and amiable member of the cast). Not only does she have an excellent combination of outer beauty and inner beauty, she is also intelligent and competent, being a skilled hand-to-hand fighter who actually did consistently better against Equalist Chi-Blockers then most Benders did (to be fair, she did have that sweet electrified gauntlet, but that's just one more plus for her), and also having mechanical expertise inherited from her father, allowing her to both drive just about any and all vehicles in the Avatar world, and also repair and maintain them. And, her black satomobile that she used as Team Avatar's personal car in Season 1 was definitely one very stylish ride.

Her fashion sense too is also noteworthy, my personal favorite being her awesome biker/combat outfit that she wore when either driving vehicles, fighting, or both. I also like her preference for black and red, as those are my two favorite colors. Not only that, but between her black and red color scheme, being a black-haired beauty, and also being really rich, you'd think she'd be a typical archetypal femme fatale of the heartless and evil sociopath variety who's only beauty is on the outside (kind of like Baroness and Xenia Onatopp, among others).

But this then is the other main reason why Asami is not just my third favorite female character ever, but also my favorite female from her franchise: because she appears to adhere to an archetype that I hate (the sexy but evil dark haired beauty, namely), and goes in the completely opposite direction as (again), one of the absolute nicest characters in the franchise and certainly in her particular show, especially when compared to the way Korra was for the first one and a half seasons, and the way Mako was for most of Book 1. That Mako ended his relationship with Asami in a poorly (and hastily) written fashion to be with someone who proved to be a rather unpleasant and verbally abusive partner and nowhere near as kind as Asami was, makes him in no uncertain terms a complete idiot. Again, nigh incomparable beauty on both the outside and the inside, brains, combat skill, a talent for vehicles and machinery, a good fashion sense, rich and being a character who gives the finger to one of my least favorite archetypes ever. Doesn't get much better than that.

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2. Female Paragon Shepard and Miranda Lawson (Mass Effect, Tie)

The two best women of the Mass Effect trilogy manage to tie for the number 2 spot. But why are these two ladies the best out of a series that has a lot of good female characters?

For Female Shepard (at least the Paragon version), the reasons for her high ranking are very simple and as follows: as a female version of Commander Shepard, she has all of the awesomeness and pure badassery of the Male Shepard, only female. So really, all that is great about Male Shepard applies to her. She also benefits from good voice acting from Jennifer Hale, so really, Paragon FemShep's placement is a no-brainer. That you can influence how she looks is just one more plus, especially when she frankly has better customization options than Male Shepard. And, for all her being so thin physique-wise, instead of getting crushed by others, she crushes them. Awesome.

For Miranda, I honestly find that she and Yennefer from the Witcher actually have a few things in common, and that it is many of these common traits and characteristics that make me love both characters. Unfortunately, Miranda's probably one of the most unfairly and widely reviled and bashed characters in the franchise, with most other members of the ME fandom being content to treat her like the Anti-Christ. Myself, I love her for the following, simple reasons: Beauty, Brains, Badassery, and a hidden heart of gold.

The Beauty part is obvious. Her sexiness and hotness are such that she actually gets flak for it (which makes no sense). Me though, I appreciate both her lovely low-cut catsuit and also her very pretty face that comes from her voice actor, the very attractive Yvonne Strahovski. I also like how they made her a brunette, since I do tend to have that preference.

As for brains and badassery, she was the head of the Lazarus Project that brought back Commander Shepard back from the dead and in so doing gave the trilogy's hero(ine) a second chance at life and the opportunity to stop the Reapers for good. Shepard owes their very life to her. She's also a woman of tastes and culture, liking classical music and clearly favoring the sophisticated over the, well...unsophisticated. Some use this to claim she's arrogant, a rather ludicrous claim that can be easily demolished by the following lines:

"Everyone of your accomplishments is due to your skills...the only things I can take credit for are my mistakes."

"The difference between you and me is, you were great before we brought you back...I'm great because of it."

(In response to Shepard's noting that Miranda sounds like she was designed to be perfect): "Maybe, but I'm not. I'm still human, Shepard. I make mistakes like everyone else. And when I do, the consequences are severe."

So, in addition to being smart and sexy, she's also modest to a fault. Yet another good quality (if not also unfortunately taken too far due to her self-loathing, but this can be rectified by Shepard showing her care).

As for badassery, she lists her combat qualifications early on, and while a bit more fragile than some of Shepard's other crew-mates, she is still capable of holding her own in a fight, and in fact all of her special abilities are geared towards offense (including Overload for synthetic foes, and Biotic Warp for organics).

Lastly, we have that hidden heart of gold I mentioned earlier. Despite most members of the fandom's claims to the contrary, Miranda is not only not as arrogant or mean as she appears early in her debut game, but she is also not a monster simply for working for Cerberus. Not only does she never do a single evil thing (and no, executing a traitor who tried to kill her and wanting to interrogate someone without ever once suggesting she was planning to use torture are not evil acts), quite the contrary, she repeatedly expresses clear moral standards with her...

  1. Condoning Tali's voiced desire to punish the racist Volus Kor Tun for his treatment of the Quarian Lia'vael ("Juvenile, but certainly deserved")
  2. Her agreeing (at least to Shepard) that what was done to Jack and the other children tortured by Cerberus was without question a mistake.
  3. Her objecting to the pointless abuse and torture of an inmate that a Purgatory prison guard indulges in.
  4. If allowed to interrogate Veetor expresses the belief that she saved his life (thus showing she cared about him to some extent)
  5. Warns the cocky young punk on Omega who's life Shepard can save via Paragon Interrupt that he'll need more than knowing how to use a gun if he wants to survive.
  6. Along with other party members, warns against letting the delusional Volus Niftu Cal participate in a fight due to how he would be unable to do so.
  7. Admits that she "always regretted" considering putting a control chip in Shepard's head when "rebuilding" him/her and her guilt over it only gets worse as time goes by, to the point that she pretty much begs for forgiveness.
  8. Warning innocents across the Galaxy to stay away from her father's false sanctuary that already made husks out of at least hundreds and as many as millions of innocent people, including children. She even said "once I saw what this place really was, I couldn't just walk away".

These do not sound like the thoughts and actions of a cold and calculating, mass murdering monster, and instead reinforce my belief that Miranda is NOT evil, especially since some of these happen earlier in the game, thus jettisoning the "she's bad pre-Character Development" argument.

Miranda is also very warm, polite, and pleasant when speaking to Shepard on the Normandy, and so long as she is shown civility in turn she continues to give it. She doesn't fail to praise Shepard's successes and accomplishments (even when she is colder to him/her, she admits that she has respect for their abilities), and she also has a genuine and earnest desire to see humanity succeed that is not twisted and perverted by xenophobia the way it is with most Cerberus members (and in fact Miranda laments this). Ultimately, like Jacob Taylor and Kelly Chambers, she is one of the few members of Cerberus with moral principles and standards, and that to me is an interesting character premise. Of course, I do also love how Miranda finally gets her eyes opened to the evil of Cerberus and resigns, further proof that she is nowhere near the heartless monster most members of the fandom believe her to be.

So to sum it up again: Beauty, brains, badassery, and a hidden heart of gold, plus a good character premise, good character development, and a very tragic past with a pure evil father that (to me) makes her easy to sympathize with. What more can you ask for? If I had to pick two women to save me from a bunch of giant robot squids shooting lasers, I'd definitely choose Paragon FemShep and Miranda.

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1. Catwoman (DC Comics) and Black Cat (Marvel Comics) (Tie)

Tied on the account of their many similarities and they're being basically cross-company equivalents to one another. Considering that Spider-Man and Batman are my two very favorite superheroes, it is perhaps no surprise that I took to the very best of the two's (many) lovers. Where the various "civilian love interests" as I call them often come off as little more than a near interchangeable and repetitive lot of bland throwaway characters who tend to come and go without leaving much of an impression, and after a while all start to feel more or less the same, Catwoman and Black Cat tend to come off as much more exciting and interesting.

For one, superhero love interests nearly always trump the more mundane and bland civilian ones that seem to be so much in vogue, and they also have the added benefit of feeling like they're a lot closer to their respective partner in status than a civilian lover would be. And aside from their incredible hotness and sexiness (well enhanced by their choice of dress), they are also confident, talented, playful, and as their often very good banter and flirting with Spidey and Bats clearly shows, witty and funny in an often sarcastic, sassy, and/or deadpan sort of way.

Now, the exact nature of these women's relationships with Spider-Man and Batman and how close or not close they are does change depending on the writer and also specific versions, but whenever the two pairs of characters are shown to be romantic and intimate rather than merely enemies with a bit of superficial flirting here and there, I tend to find said romantic relationships very interesting. The fact that these two are criminals, but of a more mild and tame sort than psychopaths like Joker and Green Goblin, ensures that the heroes are morally conflicted about whether or not they should give into their attraction to these more gray characters. And of course, that statement also implies it's the more gray iterations of the two, as opposed to the more unambiguously villainous depictions of the characters that I tend to not like as much.

No, I prefer Selina and Felicia when they're either Anti-Heroes and Spider-Man and Batman's partners in every sense of the word, or alternatively gray characters who sometimes help, sometimes hinder. But I don't like among other things the psychotic, bloodthirsty, and horribly mischaracterized and mis-written version of Black Cat running around in current comics that now comes off as just another revenge-obsessed Spider-Man villain (because he never has enough of those) and is indulging in behavior that even Black Cat at her previous worst never came close to so much as attempting. And no, the explanation for why doesn't work. She's forgiven Spider-Man for misunderstandings that got her arrested before (and during the same writer's run, no less), so the fact that she's not doing it here and is also going as far as she is, is mischaracterization of the worst sort.

But, while poor Black Cat has now been derailed horribly as a character (to the point that I fear it may very well be irreversible at this point), I can at least fondly remember the way she used to be, and also how she (thankfully) is in some alternate depictions.

Special mention should also be given to some of the better other-media depictions of the two. For Catwoman, all respect to Michelle Pfiffer and especially Anne Hathaway's takes on the character, but for me, Catwoman's Arkhamverse depiction is by far her best, perfectly capturing all that I adore about the character, and giving her a voice actress that did a stellar job capturing a sultry and confident Catwoman. For Black Cat, her portrayal in the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon was my favorite, where Tricia Heifer really made her (often amusingly and sometimes hilariously) flirty and sultry in her interactions with Spider-Man. And you have to admit, she'd probably do well with the role in live action as well.

Ultimately, Catwoman and Black Cat are super-sexy, super-witty, funny in an often sarcastic sort of way, confident without being haughty or insufferable (at least when written well), can hold their own in a fight (which is often more than can be said for the likes of Mary Jane and Viki Vale), and are the very best women to capture my favorite superheroes' hearts. What more can you ask for?

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Top 10 Lightsaber Duelists (Legends Continuity)

This is a concept that originated with @shootingnova where I will be ranking the best lightsaber duelists in descending order, and also providing arguments for why they should fit. Now, of course, this list is not a statement of fact with the exception of some characters who are factually stated to be among the best. That said, I will be arguing with evidence, so that will hopefully give my verdicts more weight. Now I stress that these lists will be divided between Sith and Jedi, and that they pertain to lightsaber skill only. Things like Force power and physical stats don't factor in, except when they are contextually important to character victories (which will in turn likely cause those same characters to rank lower).

Update: Due to so many characters sharing one tier/spot (especially where the Jedi are concerned), I decided to alter the set-up of this list a bit. Also added some character images to brighten it up a bit.

With that, out of the way, let's begin:

Sith:

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1. Darth Sidious: This should be obvious. Besides it's being pretty much canon fact, the evidence speaks for itself: stalemating Yoda, stalemating a voraciously amped Mace Windu, curbstomping Kit Fisto, casually besting Darth Maul and Savage Opress at the same time when obviously toying with them, besting DE Luke, etc. etc. Palpatine is also cited to know all of the different lightsaber styles, which is a requirement of his chosen form (Juyo) anyways. Further indication of his skill can be seen in how he trained Maul to be the excellent swordsman that he is, so that alone would indicate that he knows his stuff. And also all of his feats above, those too.

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2. Darth Caedus/Darth Krayt (Tie): For Caedus, his fighting against Legacy Era Luke alone is a clear indicator of skill. True, he has some low showings here and there, but they're exactly that: low showings (and honestly, his fight against Jaina's not that much of a strike against him, when one considers all of the context surrounding that fight). Fighting against Luke is proof enough that Caedus is one of the best of the best in Sith lightsaber duelists.

And what of Krayt, you ask? Simple: his multiple good showings against Cade Skywalker, someone who has evidenced Darth Maul-level skill multiple times. Krayt was doing well against him whilst being at essentially death's door thanks to his infection. After being cured of it, he was even more formidable, easily mopping the floor with Cade. I'd call making a Maul-level duelist look foolish to be a pretty good indicator of skill. A level of skill that frankly not even Dooku possess. Hence, I put Krayt here.

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3. Darth Tyranus: Considering the sheer volume of feats he has, most of which against opponents with feats of their own, this should be obvious. Factually beating Mace Windu at least once, fighting evenly with him on another occasion, defeating General Grievous, repeatedly defeating Asajj Ventress before and after she improved, repeatedly beating Obi-Wan, repeatedly beating/stalemating CW Anakin, fighting evenly with RotS Obi-Wan, giving RotS Anakin a good fight, beating Sora Bulq and Thome together, fending off Ventress and two Nightsisters with lightsabers while drugged and blinded, etc. Really, Dooku's list is astonishing and exceptional both. Again, not just the large number of opponents he's beaten or stalemated, but how nearly all of them have feats of their own makes it even more impressive, and should leave little doubt in anyone's mind that Dooku is among the best.

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4. Post ANH-Vader/Dark Side Anakin (Tie): Each iteration of Vader is as skilled as the other. DS Anakin was stalemated by Obi-Wan yes, but because of context. Prior to his duel with Obi-Wan, Anakin casually bested Cin Drallig while both distracted and handicapped, killed Serra Keto, and killed most of the other Jedi in the Temple besides. All of his pre-DS showings would also remain valid. As for Vader, he too has bested featless/bottom-tier characters, such as Sa Cuis, and characters who were good by reputation (The Dark Woman and Roan Shyre). In addition, the fact that he is an improved version of a Vader who already showed he could have an extended fight with an amped TPM Darth Maul, an incredible dueling feat. And that was before Vader's prime. Vader at his peak (which is RotJ) was able to duel evenly with his son, who himself had improved significantly from his TESB iteration. Now before people say "But Anakin beat Dooku!", that was owing to advantages over the Count that neither Anakin nor Vader would necessarily have against other opponents. Their skill levels are right below Dooku's but close enough so that their skills in conjunction with their advantages would grant them the win (and did in Anakin's case). But in terms of raw skill, Vader and DS Anakin are marginally below Dooku.

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5. TPM Darth Maul/CW Darth Maul/Lumiya the Dark Lady/ANH Darth Vader (Tie):

  • ANH Vader and TPM Maul: A Vader who was pretty much his ANH iteration (as it was the same year), being able to last an incredible length of time against an amped Darth Maul (albeit taking a few hits here and there) should be proof enough of how close in skill Maul and pre-prime Vader are. Yes, Maul won the duel in the end, but again, he was amped to a much greater extent than Vader was, and yet Vader still gave him a very long, drawn-out duel, to the point that even the watching Dark Side acolytes conceded that the duel was closer than they thought it would be. And their other feats support their being close to one another. Maul killed Qui-Gon and was beating Anoon Bondara to the point that he threw the fight, Vader killed the Dark Woman and Roan Shyre, and of course fought evenly with Ben Kenobi. Maul's killed bottom-tier Jedi, Vader's done the same, as well as killing Sa Cuis, who's no better or worse. Both have fought evenly with a version of Obi-Wan not in their prime (before it in CW Obi-Wan's case, after it in ANH Obi-Wan's case). Not really seeing much disparity here.
  • CW Maul: People sometimes assume that CW Maul is better than TPM Maul, but that's really only true in respects to Force Power. TPM Maul is actually more agile, at least compared to CW Maul with his "chicken legs". Concerning everything else, especially dueling skill, there isn't much disparity. Killing Qui-Gon is comparable to dueling evenly with CW Obi-Wan, and all of Maul's other victories are against bottom-tier Jedi of about the same level of unimpressiveness, save for Anoon Badara, who Maul was beating prior to TPM, and another Jedi good by reputation named Jun-Fan, who Maul slew during the Clone Wars. Again, not seeing much disparity here. Both versions of Maul are equally skilled, and Pre-TESB Vader is comparable to both of them.
  • Lumiya: She was able to soundly beat RotJ Luke when he was unfamiliar with her Light Whip, and even after he became familiar with it Lumiya was still able to give him a good fight, which shows very clearly a high level of skill.
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6. Darth Plagueis/Darth Tenebrous/Tulak Hord (Tie): With these characters, it's less tangible feats that make them good and more other things.

  • Plagueis: He did beat Darth Venamis, which is noteworthy because Venamis was in essence Plagueis' doppelganger. Like Plagueis he had been trained by Tenebrous and had been taught to fight in the very same way. So it says a lot about Plagueis' ability to adapt that he could still overcome Venamis in combat, and fairly soundly at that. Furthermore, he possessed a wealth of knowledge on dueling skill and it can also be inferred from his training Palpatine to be the absolute best lightsaber duelist in the history of the Order that he is himself skilled.
  • Tenebrous: He ought to be roughly equal to Plagueis since he was also heavily implied to be superior to Venamis and also trained Plagueis to be the good lightsaber duelist that he is. There is also his being stated by Plagueis/the narrator of the novel to have "loved saber dueling" and thus gone out of his way to excel in it (whereas Plagueis conversely, hated dueling). That Tenebrous would also have access to a fair wealth of knowledge (including in saber dueling) would make his being a good lightsaber duelist likely.
  • Tulak Hord: For the Sith who was, along with Ajunta Pall and Freedon Nadd one of the very first Sith to wield a lightsaber, Kreia (in a statement that's authenticity has been confirmed by lead writer of KotoR II Chris Avellone) said that if either she or Meetra Surik (albeit Meetra not at her peak) were to face a master of Tulak Hord's time and skill in lightsaber combat, she would find that she and Kreia would be "but children playing with toys" in comparison. Now, pre-prime Meetra and Kreia not exactly being lightsaber aficionados keeps this accolade from making Tulak and his fellow Ancient Sith the absolute best of the best, but it is still a good accolade, since it suggests he would be able to curbstomp duelists of Kreia and pre-prime Meetra's level, and very few lightsaber duels are ever a straight up curbstomp (even many of Maul and Vader's featless victims, for instance, put up a bit of a fight). So the accolade is, while often overblown, still a good indicator of substantial skill. As far as I'm concerned, all three of these duelists are right below Maul, Lumiya, and ANH Vader in skill, being inferior only by a tiny margin.
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7. Ajunta Pall/Freedon Nadd (Tie): Placed here (and right below the above characters in skill) because the accolade given to Tulak would also logically apply to these characters as well, since they're from around the same time as Tulak Hord and both used a lightsaber in addition to other weapons. It would also apply to Naga Sadow, Marka Ragnos, and Ludo Kressh, but as none of them actually used lightsabers, they don't make this list. Their intrinsic skill level should still be about here or the next tier up though. Especially since Ajunta Pall also has the feat of personally slaying over a dozen Jedi at Corbos. I'd call that a fine skill feat myself.

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8. Darth Malgus/Exar Kun/The Emperor's Wrath/Ulic Qel-Droma (Tie):

  • Exar and Ulic: Considering that Kun and Qel-Droma had an hour-long stalemate and also that Kun sensed Qel-Droma as a rival (though it may have been rival in respects to Force Power), the two's being equals in dueling should be self-evident.
  • Malgus: His slaying the likes of Kao Cen Darach and Ven Zallow (the former done before his prime) are comparable to Kun's killing Vodo Siossk Baas. Outside of these victories, Malgus also twice beat Satele (albeit iterations of Satele before her prime), but it's not as though anyone else Kun and Qel-Droma beat in dueling were terribly impressive either. Furthermore, Kun's attacking his victims with a hitherto unseen weapon likely contributed to the ease of his victories, whereas Malgus and Qel-Droma attained victories over featless opponents without any such advantage. So ultimately, Malgus is comparable to the Tales of the Jedi Sith pair.
  • The Emperor's Wrath: Beating Darth Baras (or at least stalemating Baras long enough for him to be drained of his Force power) is actually a good feat in and of itself, as Baras fought evenly with Angral, who himself has some mild feats. That he tired Baras out would seem to invalidate the showing, but he tired Baras out in respects to Force power, not dueling skill. Not only that but the sheer number of opponents the Wrath beat elsewhere is also noteworthy. And given the Wrath (and Sith Warriors in general) predilection for saber dueling, it's safe to assume that, N-Canon game mechanics aside, the Wrath's many victories were still largely owing to saber skill and not Force power. What's also noteworthy is that the Emperor's Wrath beat many of their opponents while still relatively inexperienced.
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9. Darth Bane

At his peak, he was challenging Zannah when bloodlusted, with her only barely keeping him at bay. This would also be an improved version of the Bane who gave Kas'im (a duelist good by reputation and technical skill) a solid fight, meaning Bane at his peak would likely be above Kas'im.

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10. Savage Opress: Even granting that a lot of Savage's success was owing to superior strength rather than superior dueling skill, he's still not totally inept in this regard. While his stalemating Anakin and Obi-Wan at once was him in a Force Rage and thus not indicative of his standard level of skill, he was earlier able to kill a Jedi without a lightsaber (using a vibroaxe instead), which makes the otherwise strength-reliant victory more impressive. He also dueled evenly with Plo Koon before resorting to superior strength to rip off his breather mask. I'd still place Savage below Plo on the account of the latter's fight with Ventress, but Savage's showing is still decent. He also held his own against Adi Gallia (who briefly contended with General Grievous) before once more using superior strength to pull a win. So, definitely reliant (perhaps too reliant) on strength, but still a credible lightsaber wielder.

Honorable Mentions:

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  • Darth Venamis (Not pictured): Was able to give Darth Plagueis a fight, and was trained by Darth Tenebrous in such a way that he was more or less Plagueis' doppelganger, so he ought to be worth mentioning based on that.
  • Darth Revan: Prior to reaching this point in his life, he slew Mandalore the Ultimate (who one-shotted Jedi Malak), and is responsible for the loss of Malak's jaw. However, how close or not close a duel the latter was (assuming there even was a duel at all) is ambiguous.
  • Lord Kallig: As either Darth Nox or Darth Imperius he/she has some lightsaber fights here and there, but they obviously rely much more heavily on Force power, and their only dueling victories are almost entirely against fodder anyway.
  • Darth Zannah: Besides one or two victories over bottom-tier Jedi, she also held her own against a bloodlusted Darth Bane, which is a solid showing.
  • Kas'im (Not pictured): Sirak and the other students at the Academy on Korriban were in awe of his skill, and his knowing every single lightsaber form denotes not just technical knowledge and skill but also versatility. He also managed to overwhelm/beat Darth Bane, albeit Bane many years before his prime. Still good though. May just break onto the Top 10 list.

Jedi:

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1. NJO Luke Skywalker: While this iteration of Luke was mostly fighting Yuuzhan Vong and not lightsaber duelists, he is a superior version of New Republic Era Luke, who showed he could contend with Palpatine at his peak. So going by that, it's safe to infer that Luke at his peak would have improved in lightsaber dueling, and should be more comparable to Palpatine. And that's more than enough to reach the number one spot.

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2. Amped Mace Windu/Yoda (Tie): Both fought evenly with Darth Sidious, and Yoda actually disarmed him in the RotS junior novelization, so the two's being this high up should be obvious.

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3. New Republic Era Luke Skywalker: Again, NR-Era Luke was able to contend with Palpatine, but of course he lost. Still, the fact that he could contend with him for any length of time (and honestly gave a better performance than Kit Fisto did), and also that he would likely be a slightly more skilled version of his already formidable RotJ iteration, means NR Luke ought to rank about here.

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4. RotJ Luke Skywalker/Mace Windu (Tie): Mace Windu has already fought evenly with Dooku, and they are considered equals and rivals. That Mace has fought evenly with someone Dooku beat with difficulty due to knowing how he would fight (Grievous) further points in the direction of them being equals. What has Luke done to put himself on the same par as Mace? Simple: fighting evenly with his father when the latter was at his peak and when Luke didn't even want to fight his father. And in fact, Luke got the upper hand at different points in their duel, and Vader was fearful that Luke could actually beat him. Yes, Dooku is a better swordsman than Vader, but only marginally, and in any event, fighting evenly with Vader when not wanting to fight him and going by other evidence likely being marginally above him, is just as good as being a perfect equal to a slightly better duelist. So near as I can tell, Luke as of this point is just as good as Mace. Beating Lumiya with difficulty should also be comparable to beating Asajj Ventress, and keeping back Flint when not wanting to fight him should be comparable to handling Quinlan Vos when not even trying. If Luke is below Mace, it's only by the very slimmest of margins.

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5. RotS Anakin Skywalker: Anakin at this point was able to beat Count Dooku of course, albeit owing partly to the advantages of Djem So and superior strength. Still, those bits of context hardly invalidate the feat outright, and it does suggest that Anakin's base skill at this point in time is almost equal to Dooku, since those few advantages tipped the scale enough to allow him to win. That he's an improved version of the Anakin who's already achieved a string of victories would also be worth noting.

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6. Kit Fisto/Agen Kolar/Saesee Tiin/Legacy-Era Jaina Solo/RotS Obi-Wan Kenobi (Tie):

  • Jaina: Kyp and Jaina fought evenly with each-other, so we know they're about on the same level, though not necessarily perfect equals. Jaina also has a very erratic fighting style that is atypical of most Jedi and thus could give her an edge over most Jedi in a duel. She was able to (albeit with assistance from Luke and later her opponent being injured) hold her own against Darth Caedus, and even if we write that off as a low showing for Caedus, fighting evenly with Warmaster Tsavong Lah while immobilized and soundly trouncing amped Dark Siders are good showings in their own right, and should make Jaina (and by extension Kyp) comparable to...
  • Kit Fisto: Casually scrapped a trio of magnaguards and was beating General Grievous. Even granting that Shii-Cho factored into these accomplishments, some intrinsic skill had to be present as well. He is also recognized, along with Agen and Tiin (who will be discussed shortly), one of the best lightsaber duelists the Jedi Order ever produced. Quite the accolade.
  • RotS Obi-Wan: Like Kit, he also beat/stalemated General Grievous on the account of his lightsaber form giving him an advantage and in fact did better against Asajj Ventress than Kit Fisto has (again though, Shii-Cho factors in, this time as a disadvantage). RotS Obi-Wan could also duel fairly evenly with Count Dooku, who beat him by superior Force power, not superior dueling skill (though he does have that, just not to a gross degree).
  • Saesee Tiin: To compare to Obi-Wan's above showings, Saesee Tiin stalemated Mace Windu, showing he's right below him in skill, and Agen Kolar curbstomped Quinlan Vos about as effortlessly as Mace Windu did, which suggests a comparable level of skill. And again, Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin are both also considered two of the absolute best lightsaber duelists the Jedi Order ever produced. So in all, Agen, Saesee, and Obi-Wan should all be about equal, and also in turn equal to the other two Jedi on this tier.
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7. Eeth Koth/Kyp Durron (Tie): Kyp Durron's being here has already been kind of explained on the account of his stalemating Jaina, albeit Jaina not yet in her prime, but at the same time Kyp may or may not have been holding back. He also has victories against other opponents (such as Vong warriors). With Eeth Koth though a lot of people will likely be scratching their heads wondering why he of all people makes it this far up. The reason for it is his successfully stalemating General Grievous. Yes, Grievous is better (as suggested by how he was steadily forcing Eeth Koth back), but the difference in skill is marginal, not exponential. And being able to hold out against Grievous is a good showing. As to the inevitable "but that was TCW Grievous, and he sucks!", this is only true in respects to physicals. TCW Grievous' dueling skills are really not inconsistent with other iterations of him barring one low showing against Ahsoka Tano and that's it. Other than that, none of TCW Grievous' duels are inconsistent with the way he's been depicted elsewhere. So Eeth Koth's holding out against him is a fair showing. He's smack-dab in-between the characters right above and right below, being very close in skill to all of them.

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8. CW Anakin//CW Obi-Wan Kenobi/Plo Koon/Ki-Adi-Mundi/NJO Kyle Katarn/The Hero of Tython/ANH Obi-Wan/TESB Luke/Mara Jade Skywalker (Tie):

  • TCW Anakin and Obi-Wan: Most tend to assume Anakin to be a better swordsman than Obi-Wan, and if we're talking about the AotC or RotS iterations, this assumption would be correct. However, looking at their respective showings, the Clone Wars iterations of Anakin and Obi-Wan seem to be about even. Both have had similar success against Asajj Ventress, and their duels outside of their fights with Ventress are also comparable. Obi-Wan's stalemated Darth Maul repeatedly, Anakin's stalemated a slightly better duelist (Count Dooku) with a Djem So advantage. Obi-Wan's beaten Savage Opress, Anakin before reaching this level of skill stalemated Nejaa Halcyon and slew numerous Dark Acolytes. Not seeing a whole lot of disparity here. Yes, Anakin is better than Obi-Wan if we look at either their AotC or RotS iterations, but Anakin and Obi-Wan c. the middle of the Clone Wars are equals going by the evidence.
  • Plo Koon: Plo has stalematedAsajj Ventress just as Obi-Wan and Anakin have, which indicates a similar level of skill. He only lost to Savage Opress due to the latter's ripping off his breather mask, a strength dependent victory rather than a skill dependent one. Prior to Savage resorting to superior strength, Plo was keeping him at bay. So Plo should be comparable to TCW Obi-Wan and Anakin as a duelist.
  • Ki-Adi-Mundi: Briefly contended with General Grievous despite extremely negative circumstances (fatigued, had not faced anything like Grievous and his erratic fighting style before, had a form disadvantage). Had it been a fresh Mundi who was more acquainted with GG's fighting style, Mundi would have done even better, which should put him at around Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Plo's level.
  • NJO Kyle: I'm mostly going with the notion that he would have improved form his New Republic era iteration, who achieved a string of victories against various bottom-tier characters, several of whom he bested years before his prime. So an improved version of that Kyle should be comparable to the other characters here.
  • The Hero of Tython: He/she gets a spot here because of the sheer number of bottom-tier/slightly-above-bottom tier characters that they beat, some of whom they beat while still relatively inexperienced (including when wielding a training lightsaber rather than proper one).
  • ANH Obi-Wan and TESB Luke: The former fought evenly with Darth Vader while the latter contended with a better Darth Vader for an extended period and even managed to land a glancing blow on him. That should easily make him comparable to a version of Obi-Wan who stalemated a slightly inferior swordsman and a version of Anakin who stalemated a slightly better swordsman with a form advantage.
  • Mara: Her beating Vong becomes more impressive when one remembers when she beat an esteemed Vong warrior under negative circumstances (had never encountered a Vong before and was also injured). She also beat Alema Rar. She also sparred evenly with Corran Horn under negative circumstances, and perhaps most impressive of all, dueled evenly with Lumiya (who even Luke was challenged by).
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9. Qui-Gon/Luminara Unduli/Barriss Offee/AotC Anakin/Nejaa Halcyon/NR-Era Kyle Katarn/Saba Sebatyne/Revan/Meetra Surik (Tie): Basically, to sum it up quickly:

  • Qui-Gon: Beat Anoon Bondara and gave a slightly injured Darth Maul a good fight two times.
  • Luminara: Gave Ventress a good fight, and actually lasted a little longer against her than Qui-Gon did against Maul. Tempted to rank her higher up.
  • Barriss: Gave TCW Anakin a good fight and beat Ahsoka
  • AotC Anakin and Nejaa: Stalemated each-other repeatedly, with Anakin also pressing Dooku despite losing (though Djem So did factor in), fought evenly with a pre-prime Asajj Ventress (who also contended with Dooku), and slew various Dark Acolytes, including Count Dooku's doppelganger and a pair of Dark Acolytes that attacked him at once.
  • NR Kyle: All the Dark Jedi he beat, several of whom were taken out before he had reached his prime, either overall or for this version of him. He also killed multiple Shadowtroopers, who, while not skilled duelists at all, did have Cortosis armor that would have made them more resistant to lightsaber strikes.
  • Saba: Kept at bay an enraged Kenth Hamner when not actually wanting to fight him, and beat him on multiple occasions prior, showing she's pretty clearly superior to him. And Kenth is not a fodder character, having himself bested Yuuzhan Vong warriors.
  • Revan: Per Drew Karpyshyn Revan prefers Force combat over saber dueling (and looking at his concrete feats this is true). However, despite this, and also the fact that Revan's overall skill level is extremely vague and difficult to pin down due to the ambiguous circumstances of many of his victories, he did at least manage to beat Mandalore the Ultimate years before his prime (and Mandalore one-shotted Jedi Malak), slew amped Royal Guards (who are supposed to be capable of killing low-tier Sith), and was able to at least duel evenly with an amped Darth Malak, though how much or how little of his victory over Malak was owing to superior dueling skill is unclear. But he had his lightsaber drawn come the battle, so it can be assumed that he could at least defend himself from Amped Malak's attacks. Besides that, there is also his first fight with Darth Malak that cost Malak his jaw (before either one was at their peak), and his fight with Bastila, which I would argue was probably mostly a lightsaber duel, for the following reasons: the fight takes place on a fairly narrow catwalk, and it begins with Revan and Bastila in close proximity to each-other, meaning it is very unlikely to me that they would not resort immediately to lightsaber combat. And the fact is, saber combat or no, Revan was able to keep back an amped (and steadily more enraged) Bastila at bay when not even wanting to fight her (as he was trying to redeem her the whole time). If we interpret this as being mostly a lightsaber duel, then it's a strong indicator of skill, especially since he had also by then fought through a large number of other foes. Now I will concede that it's not definitive that it was mostly a lightsaber duel, but there is some evidence to suggest that it might have been. And if it was, then it is a very good indicator of skill, and along with everything else should put him about on Meetra's level.
  • Meetra Surik: Most of the characters Meetra bet were pretty much fodder, but as the old saying goes, "a little's better than none". Besides that, Meetra also has some technical knowledge/skill on the account of knowing multiple lightsaber forms. And, she did manage to beat multiple Dark Siders on both The Ravager and Malachor V. Given the intense Dark Side nature of both worlds, it's safe to assume that all of her opponents in both of these locations (including the Sith Triumvirate) would be augmented. That makes Meetra's dueling with them more impressive.
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10. Aayla Secura/Corran Horn/Ven Zallow (Tie): Rounding up the Top 10 on the account of...

  • Aayla: Beating Aurra Sing (albeit with difficulty), and fighting evenly with Quinlan Vos even when he had the advantage of knowing how she would fight due to being her former master. And Aurra Sing has victories over her own, meaning she is not a fodder character.
  • Corran Horn: He's admitted to being below Mara Jade before (and their feats support this), making his placement here logical. For feats he's beaten the Yuuzhan Vong commander Shedao Shai. For my money, not too far below the characters in the number 9 spot.
  • Ven Zallow: He gave Darth Malgus a good, drawn out fight while also killing Sith Warriors that ran at him during the duel on the side. Malgus also considered him to be the only Jedi in the temple worthy of his attention.

Honorable Mentions:

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  • Cin Drallig: Honestly, I'm reluctant to even list him as this. Sure, sources have put him above Shaak Ti, but that's not actually saying much, and his remarkably poor performance against a very handicapped (and distracted) Anakin shows clear as day that he's not THAT great a duelist, and really nowhere close to the level of skill that is often attributed to him.
  • The Dark Woman: While she got overwhelmed by pre-prime Vader in saber combat pretty quickly, that was a Dark Woman who was very old and almost assuredly past her prime. Furthermore, Vader had a tremendous strength advantage. It can be assumed that a Dark Woman still in her prime would have done better. She also trained Ki-Adi-Mundi to be the duelist he is/was, and it can be inferred from that she is herself somewhat skilled (at least when again, it's her in her prime).
  • Anoon Bondara: Mostly good by reputation, but he did hold out against Darth Maul for a while, albeit being on the defensive for most of it.
  • Roan Shyre (Not pictured): Like Anoon, he was good by reputation, and also held his own against (but ultimately lost to) a Sith of substantial dueling skill (and one who was about equal to Maul per his fight with him).
  • Satele Shan: Twice contended with Darth Malgus, including when both were before their prime. She did also clash blades with Darth Baras, but the exchange was too brief to count for much. She did also contend with Revan at his peak in saber combat, though she was amped by her Battle Meditation at the time, and the fight was pretty brief.
  • Kao Cen Darach: Not only bested Darth Vindican, but showed some technical knowledge/skill due to being able to effectively dual wield a double-bladed lightsaber in a tandem with a regular one.
  • Vodo-Siossk Baas: While the comparisons to Yoda are laughably (and I mean laughably) overblown, Vodo did train Kun to be the excellent lightsaber duelist that he is, and it can be inferred from that (as well as his being able to successfully use a stick in place of a lightsaber) that he is himself somewhat skilled. That he could also with this stick contend with Kun even when Kun was using a weapon he'd never seen before (a double-bladed lightsaber) is also a clear indicator of skill.
  • Quinlan Vos: Bested some fodder characters here and there (Tol Skorr and Kadrian Sey namely). Also fought evenly with both Aayla Secura and Tholme on different occasions, though in both cases there was the fact that Vos and his opponent would have been intimately familiar with one another's fighting styles due to Tholme training Vos and Vos training Aayla.

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Kao Cen Darach and Ven Zallow Respect Thread

The two Jedi who debuted in the cinematic trailers for Star Wars: The Old Republic made a bit of an impression despite their all-too brief turns in the spotlight. They're at this point two of my favorite minor Jedi, and I thought I'd do a shared Respect Thread for them. Not to mention that this is my first ever Star Wars Respect Thread. Hooray for me.

Respect Kao Cen Darach

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"Master Kao was the most principled Jedi I have ever met, staunchly opposed to the dark side of the Force in all its forms."

Combat Skill

Defeats Darth Vindican in saber combat before then briefly contending with Darth Malgus. Though he loses to Malgus, he still managed to keep him back for a time, and it's worth noting that at this point Kao Cen Darach was fatigued, and also that Darth Malgus may have been in a Force Rage, which would have enhanced his fighting potency.

What is also of note here is that he dual wields his lightsaber with Satele Shan's doublesaber. This is impressive due to how double-bladed lightsabers are traditionally harder to master:

It requires a firm stance and a two-handed grip. Novices are likely to injure themselves while training, which will expose the flaws in their techniques.

-The Book of Sith

Traditionally used only as a training device, the double-ended saber can be much more dangerous to its wielder than an enemy.

-Star Wars Episode I: The Visual Dictionary

Wielding double bladed lightsabers is incredibly dangerous, and unskilled Sith have ended their own lives-and the lives of those around them,-when attempting to use such a weapon before their training is complete.

-Star Wars the Old Republic Encyclopedia

So Kao Cen Darach's being able to dual wield one in tandem with a regular lightsaber, and to do so effectively enough to beat a Sith in combat while also fending off another one, is a clear display of at least technical skill, but likely also non-technical skill as well due to the fact that he did beat Vindican.

Telekinesis

Telekinesis is a basic Force power enabling Force users to alter and manipulate objects and beings around them with the power of their mind.

Kao Cen Darach utilizes Lightsaber Throw, a move that requires some level of TK control to be able to do:

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Kao Cen Darach unleashes a Force Push powerful enough to send Darth Vindican flying several feet, essentially rag-dolling him:

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What makes this more impressive is that Vindican is not complete fodder. His Force Barrier was such that it shrugged off a direct hit from a rocket fired at him by Jace Malcom:

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And yet, despite the strength of his Force Barrier, Vindican was still sent flying by Kao Cen Darach's force push.

For another good TK feat, Kao Cen Darach lets out a Force Wave powerful enough to force back both Darth Vindican (who again, has a solid force barrier), and Darth Malgus:

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Lastly, while fatigued, Kao Cen Darach pretty casually lifted and hurled two large bits of metal at Darth Malgus, followed by his lifting and hurling a much larger metal object:

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Lightning Deflection

Kao Cen Darach is able to block and then redirect a blast of force lightning fired at him by Darth Vindican, sending the lightning into Malgus:

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"Go Satele. You must walk a different path"

Respect Ven Zallow

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Combat Skill

Contends with Darth Malgus, despite ultimately falling against him. Ignore the sub-titles.

During the fight, he effortlessly cuts down two Sith grunts:

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And before that, another:

Zallow for his part, moved towards Malgus. A Sith Warrior bounded at Zallow from his left, but Zallow leapt over the Sith's blade, spun, slashed, and cut down the Sith.

-Deceived

Prior to engaging Malgus, Zallow kills a few other Sith goons:

Malgus finally spotted Master Zallow ten paces away, whirling, spinning, his green blade a blur of precision and speed. One Sith Warrior fell to him, then another.

-Deceived

Accolades

Malgus considered Zallow the "only Jedi present to be worthy of his attention":

Malgus knew the battle had turned, that it would soon be over. He glanced around, still seeking Zallow, the only opponent on the field worthy of his attention.

-Deceived

Agility:

Evades lightsaber strikes from Darth Malgus:

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Leaps into the air to avoid Malgus' Lightsaber Throw:

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Avoids Malgus as he comes down at him with the intent to impale him upon his lightsaber before then leaping high into the air and then landing gracefully:

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Durability:

Ven Zallow takes being kicked by Darth Malgus hard enough to send him flying. He recovers in mid-air, lands, and cuts down two Sith, as shown in one of the above Gifs:

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Ven Zallow takes being force pushed so hard he goes smashing through stone. He doesn't seem all that perturbed by this, considering he evades Malgus, leaps into the air, and then re-engages him.

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Strength:

Was able to match Malgus in strength, even when both were using the Force to enhance their strength in an attempt to physically overwhelm each other:

Their blades sizzling in opposition, each used the Force to press against the strength of the other, but neither had an obvious advantage. Malgus shouted rage into Zallow's face. Only a furrowed brow and the tight line of his mouth betrayed the tension behind Zallow's otherwise tranquil expression.

-Deceived

Just in case anyone was doubting Malgus' own strength, and why matching him in strength is impressive, I direct you to this:

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/darth-malgus-respect-thread/97516/

Hit Malgus so hard he bloodied him, and this is someone who endured a point-blank grenade blast on Alderaan, and before that a missile explosion to the face. Now granted, it is stated that Malgus didn't actually feel any pain, but even so, Zallow's ability to both knock out a tooth and bloody Malgus a bit is still decent:

Lunging forward, Zallow slashed crosswise, Malgus parried, and Zallow slammed the hilt of his saber into the side of Malgus' jaw. A tooth dislodged and his respirator was knocked askew. Malgus tasted blood.

-Deceived

Telekinesis

Telekinesis is a basic Force power enabling Force users to alter and manipulate objects and beings around them with the power of their mind.

Ven Zallow soundly trounces Lord Adraas via a Force Blast:

Lord Adraas landed before him, trying to take Malgus' kill for himself. Adraas ducked low and slashed at Zallow's knees. Zallow leapt over the blow and unleashed a blast of energy that sent Adraas skidding on his backside across the hall.

-Deceived

Ven Zallow one-shots Eleena via Force Push:

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"May the Force be with you all"

14 Comments

Raimiverse Goblin Respect Thread (Complete!)

After doing a respect thread for the two main movie Spider-Men, I thought I’d do a respect thread for the Sam Raimi depictions of the Osborn boys, Norman and Harry. I’m not doing a respect thread for DeHaan’s Green Goblin until when or if he gets more feats in the sequels. His being on screen for about five minutes and having only about a minute’s worth of combat showings just does not justify a respect thread. So therefore this one will be dedicated solely to the goblins of the Sam Raimi films.

Respect Raimiverse Green Goblin

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“I chose my path, you chose the way of the hero. And they found you amusing for a while, the people of this city. But the one thing they love more than a hero, is to see a hero fail, fall, die trying. In spite of everything you’ve done for them, eventually they will hate you.”

No sooner does Norman first acquire his new powers does he at 0:11 throw Mendel Stromm with enough force to send him smashing through a wall of glass. Stromm continues to go sailing through the air before landing into a metal object of some kind. This kills him. So Norman has already shown himself to be strong enough to one-shot normal humans.

(For the video above, you'll need to see on Youtube directly)

At 0:44-0:46, one of his glider's missiles shows itself to be powerful enough to one-shot a prototype exosuit being built for the military. The people behind the exo-suit boasted that it packed "a lot of firepower", but clearly it's armor was not enough to keep from being one-shotted by Green Goblin's glider missiles. Following this, he then blows up the bunker and kills everyone inside it via another missile from his glider at 0:48-0:51.

Beginning at 0:54, he first displays the destructive power of his pumpkin bombs, with just one of them being sufficient to blow out all of the windows beneath the balcony Mary Jane, Harry, and others were standing on. It's unclear just how much other damage the pumpkin bomb did, but a second one thrown at about the one-minute mark manages to destabilize the balcony. At 1:40 he throws another pumpkin bomb that, rather than be explosive in nature, turns at least half-a-dozen people caught in it's blast radius to skeletons that then crumble away.

At 1:54, he takes a swinging double-kick from Spider-Man that knock him off his glider and then causes him to fall off it and down to the ground below, with only a tent to cushion his fall. He gets back up without any trouble at all.

From 2:23-2:28 he tears through a group of police officers, pretty much one-shotting them. Notably, with the last one he punches a sort of cracking sound can be heard, suggesting he may have broken the man's neck just by punching him.

At 2:29, he catches a punch from the superhuman Spider-Man, and then responds by kicking him so hard he sends him flying back several feet and through at least three tables. Spider-Man's being sent flying is finally stopped by slamming into a lamppost with enough force to cause it to fall down.

From about 2:42-2:48, Green Goblin's glider is revealed to feature yet another weapon, namely built-in machine guns. He ends his machine gun barrage by firing another rocket from his glider that Spider-Man manages to evade.

At 3:08 or so, Green Goblin flies into Spider-Man and grabs him before slamming him into a large window with enough force to shatter the glass. From 3:11-3:14 he smashes Spider-Man's head through the partially broken window, including slamming him through some metal hard enough to break it, before Spider-Man starts fighting back. Green Goblin holds him off long enough to force him off his glider. Shortly after this, Spider-Man is able to blind Green Goblin with webbing and then damage his glider, forcing him to retreat.

At 0:31, Green Goblin smashes right through a wall to gain entrance into the Daily Bugle (notably being totally uninjured by this), and then shows sufficient strength to effortlessly lift Jameson up with one arm at 0:36. At about 1:00, he busts out some knock-out gas built into his wrist armor with which he KOs Spider-Man (funny how he neglects to ever use it in later fights).

At 1:47, he punches Spider-Man in the face so hard he sends him flying backwards several feet (and also smashing through a wooden door). From there, Green Goblin unveils a third kind of pumpkin bomb in his arsenal: one that turns into a flurry of razor-bats. The fight that follows sees Green Goblin and Spider-Man once again fighting each-other to a stand-still, with Green Goblin at 2:35 taking a punch from Spider-Man so hard it knocks him into the air, followed shortly thereafter by a kick that hits him so hard it sends him flying several feet (this is at 2:38-2:40). Green Goblin gets back up from this and is not rendered unconscious.

At 0:12, he blows away the wall and window of Aunt May's bedroom, granting him access. Presumably this was done via either a missile or a pumpkin bomb, and given the destructive power of the former, it's more likely it was the latter (as a missile probably would have just blown the whole house up.)

At 0:14, he fires another missile from his glider, one that blows up the small building that it strikes, and then the fires of this explosion grow so big and rage so fiercely they cause cars on the bridge to lose control. From 0:34 to 0:40, additional destruction follows, either from the one or missile or a second one. Either way, among the damage caused is the cable-car's cable snaps. The Green Goblin then shows himself to be able to lift Mary Jane up with one arm and hold onto the cable-car via it's severed cable with his other arm, holding both indefinitely (45 seconds to be exact) before choosing to let go of both. He does not appear to be at all physically taxed by these showings of strength (0:43-0:55 and 1:16-2:01).

For starters, one of his "basic" pumpkin bombs is shown to be powerful enough to send Spider-Man flying through the air (and then a brick wall), and clearly injuring him (he's bloodied, for one). From 0:34-1:16 he proceeds to ROFLstomp the injured Spider-Man, who can't even touch him and can barely avoid his blows. He multiple times hits Spider-Man so hard he knocks him into the air, and at 0:55 he leaps into the air and intercepts Spider-Man as he attempts to web-swing out of the way, knocking him back to the ground. From 1:03-1:08, Green Goblin effortlessly tears through a web-net made by Spider-Man, and it ought to be pointed out that Spider-Man's webbing has tensile strength comparable to that of the kinds of cables used in bridge building. For a full list of showings for Spider-Man's webbing, refer to my Raimiverse Spider-Man respect thread found here:

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/shroudofsorrow/blog/raimiverse-spider-man-respect-thread

After threatening Spider-Man (and busting out a polearm in the process), Green Goblin takes being hurled through the air by Spider-Man and then slamming into a brick wall at 2:00-2:01. Spider-Man then brings a brick wall down on top of Green Goblin, who emerges from it injured but still conscious (2:09-2:25). Spider-Man then punches Green Goblin as he swings towards him, also smashing him through wood, before then slamming him into a brick wall (2:27-2:29). Still conscious after this, Green Goblin then gets punched by Spider-Man five times, four of which were to the face. While this is enough to make Green Goblin cry uncle (and thus makes it a win for Spider-Man), it should be pointed out that even after all of the other punishment he took Green Goblin still had durability enough to remain conscious after getting four punches to the face from a very angry Spider-Man.

Lastly, from 3:17-3:24, Green Goblin shows that he can control his glider remotely via his wrist-armor, and can summon it to him and also have it zoom forward at a target.

So to sum it up:

Strength

  • Threw a man with enough force to send him flying through the air and also glass, killing him.
  • One-shotted normal humans he fought, including (possibly) breaking one man's neck with his punch.
  • Catching a punch from the superhuman Spider-Man.
  • Kicking Spider-Man so hard he sent him flying a very far distance. Later achieved similar results by kicking him. Also sent Spider-Man flying with some of his blows in their final fight as well.
  • Matched Spider-Man in combat.
  • Smashed through a wall (with assistance from his glider).
  • Could effortlessly lift up J Jonah Jameson with one arm.
  • Held onto a cable-car by it's severed cable with one arm indefinitely, while also holding onto Mary Jane with his other arm.

Durability

  • Regularly took hits from the superhuman Spider-Man, including in their second fight hits that sent him into the air, and then in their third fight four punches to the head in rapid succession from an angry Spider-Man (and that was after receiving other injuries).
  • Took being sent through the air by Spider-Man, as well as being smashed through wood and having a brick wall dropped on top of him. Remained conscious after all of this, and then the aforementioned punches after that.

Pumpkin Bombs

  • Basic Pumpkin Bombs, which could obliterate the wall and window to Aunt May's bedroom, destabilize a balcony, and bloody the superhuman Spider-Man (and send him flying through the air and a brick wall both).
  • Pumpkin Bomb that can break apart into multiple razor-bats (five to be exact). These razor-bats could not only cut and injure Spider-Man, but also had a recoil, meaning that dodging them once does not guarantee one safety unless they can dodge the recoil as well.
  • A kind of "super" Pumpkin Bomb that could turn half-a-dozen people into skeletons that then crumbled away. The flash of the bomb along with it's vaporizing effect suggests a possible nuclear weapon of some sort.

Glider and other gadgets

  • Had built-in blades, machine guns, and missiles powerful enough to one-shot an exo-suit with flight and "serious firepower", blow up an entire military bunker, and blow up a small, one story building and send up fires so big and powerful they caused cars on the nearby bridge to swerve out of control.
  • Polearm weapon of some sort that's crackling effect when it activates means it may have been electrified, though this is unknown for certain. Either way, a polearm is a polearm.
  • Knock-out gas built into wrist-armor, along with a means of controlling his glider remotely.
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“You’ve spun your last web Spider-Man. Had you not been so selfish you’re little girlfriend’s death would have been quick and painless, but now that you’ve really pissed me off, I’m gonna finish her, nice and slow. MJ and I? We’re gonna have one HELL OF A TIME!

Respect New Goblin:

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"You knew this was coming, Pete."

Okay, so his being able to sneak up on Peter is PIS in view of the latter's spider-sense, but the fight itself is legit. To start, the simple fact that Harry can trade blows with Peter/Spider-Man in melee combat and before that restrain him temporarily is an indicator of superhuman strength. Along with this, Harry displays pop-out blades attached to one of his gloves (0:18) that are able to cut (and hurt) Spider-Man/Peter, who's durability showings are considerable (see my Respect Thread for him for proof). He cuts Peter successfully at 0:19.

From 0:23-0:32 (almost ten seconds) Harry is shot at by web bullets fired at him by Peter. Harry seems to evade most of them and pretty much tanks the others. He then via his arm-blades cuts through Spider-Man's web-line at 0:33.

At 0:37 he hits Peter with his sky-stick so hard he sends him flying through the air before then slamming into the side of a brick wall with enough force to leave a good-sized crater in it.

From 0:55-0:56, he punches the crater Peter was in so hard he sends up a cloud of dust and loose bits of stone, also not injuring his own hand in the least. At 1:04 he straight up rips off a huge chunk of the brick wall (with a height and width that is easily much bigger than a grown man, and probably two grown men), and also does this with only one arm. With a single punch at 1:14 he pulverizes the wall chunk, turning it into a shower of smaller stones. He displays yet more strength feats at 1:18-1:20, twice hitting Peter so hard he sends him flying through the air.

At 1:25, he grabs Peter by the leg and goes on a joyride with him in tow, holding him with only one arm by nothing more than his leg. After slamming him into walls for a while, he throws him at about 1:32, hurling Peter with such force that he goes flying through the air before then smashing through two windows.

From about 1:42/1:43-1:46 he restrains Peter, only letting go when Peter first blinds him with webbing and then elbows him in the face, a blow Harry tanks. At roughly 2:03, he again hits Peter with enough force to send him flying through the air, this time via his glider. Beginning at roughly 2:12, New Goblin's glider not only shows itself to go fast enough to keep up with Peter on foot, it also easily goes through a large number of metal poles like they're hollow bamboo sticks, cutting through all of them.

At 2:29, New Goblin shows that his glider can change it's position so as to allow him to fly through a narrow space. At 2:32, he shows sufficient reflexes to avoid and duck under obstacles as they come his way. At 2:41, New Goblin busts out a nifty sword that gives of a burst of green when Harry plunges it into the ground. It's unclear whether this was a protective "field" around the sword to make it harder to destroy, or if it was just the sword being destroyed. Myself, I lean more towards the former idea.

At the three minute mark New Goblin reveals he has the same "pumpkin bombs that turn into razorbats" that his father used in Spider-Man 1. Notably, these razor-bats are shown to be able to effortlessly go right through metal (3:06-3:07). At about 3:09-3:10 they seem to hit and injure Peter, which is consistent with their being able to injure him in Spider-Man 1 when Green Goblin used them.

From 3:17-3:20, New Goblin dodges the razor-bats that have been tricked to fly towards him. One of them actually embeds itself in his chest at 3:20-3:21, but his costume is durable enough that the razor-bat doesn't pierce it and New Goblin yanks it out.

From 3:38-3:39 their's a massive explosion, presumably caused by one razor-bat colliding with another, or else with Harry (if the latter, this suggests they were programmed to explode upon reaching a living target). Either way, New Goblin flies right through the fiery explosion not the least bit perturbed, suggesting his costume is fire-proof (though it is odd that his hair is also unaffected).

The head concussion he suffers at 3:44, followed by plummeting and then hitting a garbage bin before then tumbling along the ground is able to put him out of commission,which seems rather odd in view of how many hits to the face he took from Peter in his two fights with him while remaining conscious. Chalk that up to inconsistency I suppose.

Once again, there's the fact that Harry takes multiple hits from Peter throughout, but also other injuries besides. These include:

  • Getting kicked so hard he goes slamming into a wall (0:59-1:01)
  • Getting kicked so hard he gets knocked back a fair distance before then smashing through a nearby window and tumbling along the ground. (1:27-1:30)
  • Getting thrown into the air and then slamming his forehead on part of the wooden balcony rails and then falling onto a wooden table hard enough to destroy it (1:47-1:50). This also, by the way, makes Harry's earlier being KO'ed by a similar injury in the first fight even more inconsistent, even granting that here it's wood instead of metal. But still. Between this and all of the punches he takes from Peter, the way in which he was KO'ed in the first fight doesn't make much sense.
  • Being smashed through yet another large glass window at about 1:56-1:57.
  • Being hit right in the head by his metal-busting glider at about 2:18, followed by being sent flying through the air and then smashing into a set of glass shelves holding pumpkin bombs and then finally falling to the ground (2:18-2:21).
  • A pumpkin bomb blowing up in his face (3:04-3:06). This manages to knock him out (and also scar him and blind him in one eye), but most normal people who suffered an injury like that would be dead or else missing a good part of their face. Not to mention that this was after Harry had taken all of the other injuries beforehand.

Besides his endurance feats and the return of both his arm blades and sword (the latter of which shows itself capable of cutting through metal cables with ease at 2:03-2:04), there's also some strength feats here as well, namely:

  • Harry's being able to engage Peter in a grapple that he maintains successfully from 1:05 to about 1:10 or so, meaning he held it for five seconds.
  • At 1:16-1:19 he kicks Peter so hard he knocks him back a fair distance and also causes him to go sliding over a nearby table.
  • At about 1:40 he tackles Peter, and while Peter quickly throws him off, Harry does show sufficient agility to dodge some of Peter's punches (1:42-1:44)

One last thing to note is that Harry's Sky-Stick one again shows it's metal-busting capabilities when it goes haywire and starts flying through the goblin lair erratically, causing a bunch of damage to the surrounding area (2:08-2:13)

After calling off his feud with Peter due to what is in no uncertain terms bad writing, Harry arrives just in time to bail Spider-Man out by hurling a pumpkin bomb at giant Sandman. This pumpkin bomb's explosion is so powerful it blows away a good portion of Sandman's head. (1:27-1:37). The fact that it took about seven seconds for the bomb to detonate suggests that this more powerful explosion required a brief charge-up time.

At 1:49-1:54, in yet another display of the sky-stick's striking power, Harry hits Venom so hard he sends him flying several feet and also smashing through metal and concrete. This even seems to very briefly KO him.

From 2:33-2:39, New Goblin's glider reveals yet another weapon inserted into it: a flamethrower that turns one of Giant Sandman's arms into glass. New Goblin then at 2:41-2:43 hits the glass arm so hard with his sky-stick that he obliterates it in just one hit. Even granting that glass is fragile, the sheer size of the arm means New Goblin's one-shotting it is still impressive.

From 3:37-3:42, New Goblin is not only able to avoid Giant Sandman on his sky-stick, he also flies fast enough to avoid his grasp twice. From 3:52-3:56 he avoids Giant Sandman's attacks yet again.

Right at the beginning of the video he ducks under another attack from Giant Sandman. After playing keep-away for a little while longer, New Goblin busts out a pair of missiles that are enough to finally bring Giant Sandman down (0:27-0:47)

At 1:52-1:53, New Goblin's razor-bats make a come-back, slashing through Venom's arms and actually parting the symbiote for a brief moment.

At 1:57 he easily goes through a mess of Venom's webbing, which was strong enough to temporarily restrain Spider-Man multiple times (albeit in this case an injured and somewhat weakened Spider-Man, but still). At 1:58 his sky-stick pops out some side-blades that Venom dodges.

At 2:01-2:06, New Goblin takes another head concussion followed by falling and landing on a bunch of metal rods, and then falling again and landing on the concrete ground. He is only very, very briefly KO'ed by this, and it is yet more proof that his being stopped the way he was in his first fight with Peter is PIS.

What does manage to do Harry in is being run through by his own glider's blades at 2:25, followed by smashing into a box and then falling from a great height. While these injuries mortally wound him, I should point out that he did not die until after both the fight between Spider-Man and Venom (itself lasting over a minute) and then making amends with Peter and MJ. So even after all of these injuries it still took him several minutes to die. His death is also a good showing for his glider's blades, since they pierced his suit and flesh when one of his metal-busting razor-bats could not.

So to sum it up:

Strength:

  • Repeatedly traded blows with Peter/Spider-Man
  • Held a grapple against Peter for about five seconds
  • With one punch hit the crater Peter had made out of a brick wall so hard he sent up a cloud of dust and small debris.
  • With one arm ripped off a huge chunk of a brick wall, and then with one punch obliterated that wall chunk into a shower of dust and smaller stones.
  • Could hold onto Peter by the foot with just one arm
  • Hurled Peter with enough force to send him through the air and smashing through two windows.
  • Kicking Peter so hard he sent him sailing through the air and also sliding along a table.

Durability:

  • Repeatedly took hits from Peter/Spider-Man, as well as in the first fight surviving slamming his head into a metal pipe and then plummeting before hitting a garbage bin and tumbling along the ground. And in view of his other durability showings, his being KO'ed by this is PIS.
  • In his second fight with Peter, he (in order): took getting kicked so hard he went slamming into a wall, took getting kicked so hard he got knocked back a fair distance before then smashing through a nearby window and tumbling along the ground, took getting thrown in the air and then slamming his forehead on part of the wooden balcony rails of his mansion and then after that falling onto a wooden table hard enough to destroy it, took being smashed through another glass window, took being hit right in the head by his metal-busting glider followed by being sent flying through the air and then smashing into a set of glass shelves holding pumpkin bombs and then finally falling to the ground, and lastly a pumpkin bomb blowing up right in his face. And all of this was in addition to taking punches from an angry, morals off Peter.
  • Took another head concussion followed by falling and landing on a bunch of metal rods, and then falling again and landing on the concrete ground. He is only very, very briefly KO'ed by this, if at all.
  • It took being stabbed by his own glider blades followed by falling from a great height to mortally wound him, and even then it still took him several minutes to die.

Glider/Sky-Stick:

  • Fast enough to both keep pace with Spider-Man/Peter and also evade Giant Sandman's attacks.
  • Could change positions so as to be able to fly through narrow spaces.
  • Featured pop-out side-blades good enough to get past both New Goblin's razor-bat and fire-proof costume and also his superhuman durability, as well as a flamethrower and missiles, two of the latter being enough to bring down Giant Sandman.
  • The Sky-Stick itself was repeatedly shown to be tough enough to go through metal like nothing, hit Peter/Spider-Man so hard so as to send him flying through the air (and Harry too for that matter), one-shot Giant Sandman's entire arm after it was turned to glass, and hit Venom so hard he was sent flying several feet, smashing through concrete and metal, and even being temporarily KO'ed.

Other Gadgets and Weapons:

  • Pop-out arm blades capable of effortlessly cutting through Spider-Man's webbing and also injuring Peter with a single slash.
  • Sword that could effortlessly cut through metal cables
  • Razor-bats that could effortlessly go through metal, explode either upon striking one another or hitting a designated living target, and cut through Venom's symbiote.
  • Pumpkin Bombs that, after a seven-second charge up time could blow away a good portion of Giant Sandman's head. Another one also took out Harry himself, scarring him and blinding him in one eye.
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10 Comments

ASM Spider-Man Respect Thread

Did a respect thread for Raimiverse Spider-Man, now I'm doing one for the Andrew Garfield Spider-Man from the ASM movies. And yes, when or if more movies with this Spider-Man are made I'll go back and add feats for them. But for right now, here's the feats from the first two movies.

Respect ASM Spider-Man/Webb-Verse Spider-Man

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"Every day, I wake up knowing, that the more people I try to save...the more enemies I will make. And that it's just a matter of time before I face those with more power than I can overcome."

Very shortly after first getting his powers, Peter is shown to have greater sense of touch, as shown by how one small water drop to the forehead at 0:07 wakes him up. He then displays his powers of adhesion to a solid surface for the first time at 0:09. At 0:38-0:39, Peter's Spider-Sense kicks in, alerting him to an attack from behind by jerk #1, who he then kicks hard enough to send him sliding across the seats and then onto the ground, the man ultimately being sent a fair distance. That Peter profusely apologizes for this shows the attack was accidental/instinctual, rather than deliberate, which in turn means he could conceivably hit even harder if he were purposefully trying to hurt someone. And this is all when he's still green. At about 0:46, his Spider-Sense warns him of another attack from behind and Peter promptly kicks jerk #2 to the ground. At 0:50 he kicks back a man who is bigger than him with enough force to knock him backwards and right into several other people. At 0:57-0:58 jerk #4 swings a skateboard at Peter that he parries with his arm. From there, he deals with the last of the jerks on the train and then at about 1:02 rips a metal pole off it's hinges and wields it without effort.

To start, he obliterates a plastic alarm clock with one hit (0:03-0:04), and then accidentally does all of the following: burst a toothpaste tube, (0:09-0:10), rip a metal sink handle off (0:16), and rip a door knob right off (0:23-0:24). These feats may seem like small potatoes, but remember that Peter did all of this without even meaning to, whereas a normal person would have to put forth some amount of physical effort to do these things.

At 0:22-0:23 he reacts to a basketball coming at him from behind in time to catch it. After using his adhesion powers to make Flash look like an idiot, he bowls him over at 1:41 and then leaps incredibly high into the air before then doing a slam dunk so hard that it shatters the glass frame of the basketball hoop.

For his first night in costume, Spider-Man shows he can close car doors shut with a single web-line (0:48 roughly), and then in the span of but a few seconds is somehow able to get out of the back of the car at 0:57 and then get all the way around to face the car-thief at 1:06. This means that he got out of the car and went around to confront the car-thief in the span of nine seconds, and all without being spotted. After using webbing to effortlessly dispatch the car-thief (beginning at 1:17). At 2:07-2:08 he dodges multiple point-blank shots from handguns and then at 2:09 leaps over the cop's head and disarms him of his pistol. He then manages to escape from a police force numbering 38 officers. At 2:42 he swings into the path of a moving bus and then tumbles along the side of it for a few moments after, and he doesn't seem all that hindered by this.

Not much of a fight here, but Spider-Man does beginning at 0:21 save several cars, all of which are held up via a single web-line each (which shows just how sturdy Spider-Man's webbing is). At 0:42 he knocks the superhuman Lizard back with a swinging kick. He then holds up another car via a single web-line.

At 0:13-0:15 he rips off the rear window of a car without effort. At 0:53 he rips a seat-belt buckle out of it's clip. Beginning at around 1:07 or 1:08, Spider-Man holds onto a car with one arm while his other one holds onto a web-line. He lets go at 1:45, though it's unclear if it was because he couldn't hold on any longer or because the part of the car he was holding onto broke off from the rest. Regardless, he was able to hold onto the car with one arm for almost 40 seconds.

Apologies for the poor quality of the above video, but it was all I could find. Not much here, except that Peter at 1:10 catches a football coming towards him while he was busy trying to kiss Gwen, and then throws it so hard and fast that it bends the metal pole of a football goal that it hits.

At 1:41, he takes being tackled by the Lizard (who at this point has been shown to be strong enough to send cars flying into the air and also punch right through their metal roofs), and then manages to hold one of Lizard's hands at bay (albeit barely) from about 1:42 to about 2:05 when he starts to lose the grapple. But still, he kept Lizard's hand at bay for over 20 seconds. He then at around 2:12 manages to break free of the Lizard's grip and swim to safety. After being sent down a drain, he manages to make it all the way to Gwen's house where she patches him up after the injuries he sustained from Lizard's claws at 1:58-2:00. That Spider-Man A) took cuts from claws strong enough to tear right through metal, and B) could still keep Lizard's arm at bay, break free of him, and make it all the way to Gwen's without getting any medical attention at all is noteworthy.

  • Ducks under a sweeping attack from the Lizard (0:31)
  • Pulls Lizard down after firing a web-line at his leg (0:31-0:33)
  • Takes being slammed into metal lockers by the Lizard with enough force to dent them (0:42)
  • Takes being thrown right through a display case and then through the wall of what was most likely concrete behind it.
  • Manages to keep from being skewered by the Lizard from 0:50-1:03
  • Thrown right through a shelf and another wall with enough force to obliterate both. (1:03-1:05)
  • At 1:12 to 1:14, Lizard throws what is basically a makeshift grenade into the hole Peter went through. It's unclear if Peter tanked the explosion or if he had gotten clear of it in time.
  • Using his webbing, he rips some lights off of their place on the ceiling and slammed them into the Lizard's head. (1:27-1:29)
  • From 1:32 to 1:36 he manages to hold onto the Lizard despite Lizard's best efforts to buck him off. And again, Lizard is superhuman. He could smash through a metal bathroom stall (shown at 0:08-0:11), and before that a concrete ground, yet Spider-Man is still able to hold onto him. At 1:37, Spider-Man gets back on him and maintains his hold before Lizard finally slams Spider-Man into a wall at 1:42. Spider-Man shrugs off the hit and then avoids a slash from Lizard's claws at 1:43.
  • Evades strikes from the Lizard using what is pretty much an improvised sword. (1:55-2:00)
  • Ducks a tail-swing from the Lizard (2:06)
  • Catches the Lizard's tail and holds it back (2:06-2:07)
  • Takes being slammed into walls and metal lockers by the Lizard before then being hurled right through a pair of double doors and sliding down the hallway, all the while holding onto his tail (2:08-2:17)
  • Takes being slammed into a window so hard he almost shatters it (2:28)
  • Web-spams Lizard, cocooning him and keeping him restrained. This doesn't restrain Lizard indefinitely, but it does keep him indisposed long enough for Spider-Man to get Gwen to safety. (2:36-2:52)
  • Takes being smashed right through another wall (and book-shelf) at 3:18.
  • Uses webbing to keep a table from hitting Stan Lee and then swinging it right at Lizard (3:22-3:23).
  • Takes being thrown through the air by Lizard before then slamming into a book-shelf and falling to the floor as books fall down on him. (3:28-3:31)

Starting at 0:05, he swings by New York as SWAT cops shoot at him from different directions. Spider-Man stays consistently ahead of every single shot. It is only when he is blinded by a spot-light at around 0:15 is he shot with a taser round. He then falls from a great height right onto a taxi cab that he hits with enough force to crack it's windshield and then go tumbling along the road (0:17-0:24). This seems to KO or stun him, but not for long. At 1:15, he wakes up, and then effortlessly breaks the handcuffs binding him. At 1:16 he trips George Stacy and downs him before then through a mix of webbing and agility takes down a whole squad of SWAT cops. So he was only stunned for 51 seconds (less than a minute), and upon waking up is just as combat capable as before.

After suffering a gunshot wound that really shouldn't have happened (chalk it up to PIS and move on), Spider-Man manages to keep climbing up a building and making his way to Oscorp without any medical attention. He then botches a leap onto a nearby rooftop and falls onto a fire-escape hard (0:25-0:27). He stands back up and keeps going. It is only at 1:26 that he finally bandages up the gunshot wound, meaning he was making his way through New York with an un-bandaged gunshot wound for over one and a half minutes (since he was shot prior to the above video).

After bandaging up his wound, he's able to first run and then swing to Oscorp and confront the Lizard one last time.

  • With a swing kick Spider-Man hits Lizard so hard he knocks him off of the tower (0:12)
  • Both Spider-Man and Lizard land onto a giant spotlight from a great height, though Lizard seems to be the one who takes the fall, with Spider-Man on top of him at the time (0:17).
  • Avoids a lunging attack from the Lizard (0:21)
  • Takes being slammed into the ground by Lizard (0:25)
  • Dodges a canister thrown at him by the Lizard (0:36-0:37)
  • Dodges a tail slam by the Lizard (0:43)
  • Double-kicks the Lizard away from him (0:44)
  • Takes a fall from the top of the tower back onto the ground (0:56-0:58)
  • Evades another charge from the Lizard with help from his web-lines (1:04)
  • Beginning at 1:10, he resists Lizard's attempts to suffocate him with his tail. This attempted strangulation lasts until about 1:54, meaning Spider-Man resisted the attempt to strangle him for over 40 seconds.
  • Kicks an injured Lizard so hard he sends him over the ledge (2:09)
  • Dodges a punch Aleksei Sytsevich (1:57) and then makes it to the top of the truck by 1:58, even though he ducked under the punch. Yet he still reached the top of the truck in a second.
  • Moves his head out of the way just as Aleksei opens fire at him with a machine gun (2:02)
  • Grabs Max Dillon and saves him from a flying taxi (2:37-2:39)
  • Reacts quickly enough to catch almost all of the plutonium vials before they can fall out of the truck, first at 3:49-3:51, and again at 3:56-3:58
  • Takes being hit right in the back by a moving car at 4:18 and is fine, with him sticking to it to give himself a free ride.
  • Leaps off of Aleksei's truck and then over a bus before landing and catching the bus in time to keep it from falling on it's side, also able to hold it up and then push it back down on all four wheels. This is both a speed and strength feat. (6:01-6:18)
  • From 6:37 to 6:40 he evades machine gun fire from Aleksei while web-swinging and then, incredibly, avoids close-range/point-blank machine gun fire in mid-air long enough to fully close the distance between Aleksei and web-spam him (6:40-6:48)
  • Hit right in the chest by a bolt of electricity from Electro that sends him flying backwards and hitting a police car so hard he busts the metal and breaks the glass window (First video, 0:09-0:10). He gets back up pretty quickly and is shown to be no worse for wear minus his fried web-shooter. I feel I also need to stress that Electro's electricity was shown to be powerful enough to blow away a table and also stop a normal man's heart with only a small amount of it. Spider-Man just took a greater amount right to the chest plus other damage, and he's fine.
  • Back-flips to avoid Electro's electricity as it's racing towards him (0:39-0:40). He then leaps over a car and, in an incredible display of both reaction speed and presumably also Spider-Sense, creates first a web-net to keep a car from going flying into civilians (1:03-1:08). He then seconds later is able to use webbing to keep two people from touching electrified handrails before they can get shocked (1:12-1:19)
  • Dodges a blast of Electro's electricity. (1:34) This electricity then causes damage to the surrounding area, showing just how powerful it is.
  • Dodges more blasts of electricity from Electro (1:36-1:38)
  • Uses his webbing to rip a fire hydrant out of the ground and then swing it at Electro, the former being done with only one hand (1:38-1:42)
  • Takes another blast of electricity from Electro before then going smashing through glass (1:42-1:44). It's unclear how long this KO'ed him, or even if it did so at all. But he does eventually get up and use a fire hose to short-circuit Electro and subdue him.

Throughout these videos, Spider-Man not only evades some of Electro's attacks, but he also takes a large amount of electrical abuse. And as noted above, a super small bit of electricity from Electro blew away a table, and another small bit of it stopped a normal man's heart. The proof of this is shown here:

At 0:40-0:41 of this video, Electro one-shots a normal human with one small bolt of electricity. Just one. And yet, in the video above this one, Spider-Man is shown to be durable enough to take WAY more than just that one bolt, including at 0:43-0:45 where he takes electricity right to the face at close range, and then at 2:12-2:32 takes a sustained, 20 second long barrage of electricity right to his chest, plus the knock-back after Electro is overloaded following this. And yet by the end of the whole fight he pretty much walks it all off. He is not shown to be frankly at all injured, given that he's still walking, talking, and mere moments later, fighting again. That's remarkable pain tolerance. Especially since, again, Electro showed himself capable of a fair bit of damage with only a small bit of electricity, never mind what he was putting Spider-Man through.

At 1:56-2:01 he is able to leap high enough into the air to catch Gwen. He then goes smashing through a glass roof onto a metal surface, and he's still conscious and combat-capable (2:01-2:03). And this was after all of the electrical punishment he took from Electro. A pumpkin bomb explosion follows this, but it's unclear if Spider-Man either tanked the blast or just got clear of it in time. It seems to be the latter, so that's what I'm going to go with here.

At 2:11, he's able to hold onto Gwen with just one arm and then lowers her to safety via webbing. The Green Goblin comes at him at around 2:16 and Spider-Man evades his initial attack. He manages to play keep-away for a while before then web-zipping towards the Green Goblin at about 2:29-2:30. From 2:30-2:35 he manages to hold onto Green Goblin and not let go. At 2:35 he's smashed into the side of a wall with enough force to crumble the stone but he seems unaffected by this. He then at 2:37 kicks Green Goblin so hard he knocks him right off his glider.

At around 2:48, Green Goblin tackles him and manages to pin him. Spider-Man dodges a stab from some weird looking pseudo-knife at 2:56-2:57. From around 2:57-3:02, he manages to get into a grapple with Green Goblin. It's unclear who, if either one, would have won, but they seem to be able to match one another's strength for at least a time. Spider-Man then head-butts Green Goblin at 3:04, which staggers him. A few more blows and some quick-thinking with his webbing later and Spider-Man has the Green Goblin sufficiently indisposed.

Now, from 3:09 to 3:45 Green Goblin had his gauntlet hand wrapped around Spider-Man's throat and yet despite this attempt at strangulation, Spider-Man is never killed. This means that Spider-Man took having a superhuman's armored hand around his throat for over thirty seconds while also holding onto with one arm a web-line Gwen was holding onto the other end of, and while also placing his foot between moving clock gears to stop them. That's pretty nuts.

Deflects a missile with a manhole cover at 3:01 (don't ask me how that's possible), and then swings the manhole cover about via web-lines without effort, in the process knocking other missiles askew (3:03-3:06).

So to sum everything up:

(TO BE ADDED)

Strength

Agility (Melee)

Agility (Ranged)

Durability

Webbing

Fighting Skills

No Caption Provided

"You know what it is I love about being Spider-Man? Everything."

6 Comments

Raimiverse Spider-Man Respect Thread

Spider-Man is my favorite comic book character of all time and in running for my single favorite fictional character of all time, even moreso than Batman, my #2 superhero. I've loved all of the Spider-Man movies except for the disappointing Spider-Man 3 and the "they weren't even trying" 1977 film. So with that in mind, I thought I'd do a respect thread for both the Tobey Maguire Spider-Man and Andrew Garfield Spider-Man, starting with the former:

Respect Raimiverse Spider-Man:

No Caption Provided

"Who am I? You sure you want to know? The story of my life is not for the faint of heart. If somebody told you that it was a happy little tale, if somebody told you I was just your average, ordinary guy, not a care in the world...somebody lied."

Shortly after getting his powers, Peter's spider-sense is already such that he dodges Flash Thompson's punch (itself strong enough to leave a depression in a metal locker with no injury to his hand), and then an attack from behind by one of Flash's friends. Peter also shows good agility when he leaps right over this person. Every single one of Flash's attacks before and after this are dodged as well. Flash never lands a single hit on him. The fight ends with Peter grabbing Flash's wrist, applying enough pressure to cause him pain, and then send him flying several feet and down the hallway with one punch. It's unclear whether or not Peter intended to send Flash flying that far, but it was likely instinctual, considering all of his agility feats were shown to be. All of this was a younger and less experienced Peter.

Time of first Spider-Sense use: 1:40-1:57

Time of second Spider-Sense use followed by back-flip into the air: 2:29-2:31

Time of defeating Flash, first by wrist-grab and then my superhuman punch: 2:42-2:50

In his first fight in costume (and still not at his physical peak, which will be shown later), Spider-Man squares off against Crusher Hogan expy Bone Saw. Now I feel I should stress that Bone Saw was able to curbstomp two wrestlers beforehand, one of whom he finished by jumping off of one of the ring "walls" and landing elbow first onto another man. He seemed to suffer no injury from using this move. So clearly, his muscles aren't just for show.

To start, Spider-Man leaps far enough into the air to avoid Bone-Saw's initial charge (2:07-2:10). He then, with assistance from his webbing (which in the Sam Raimi films are not from web-shooters but rather organic and seemingly without limit) evades another charge from Bone Saw (2:24-2:26). Bizarrely, Spider-Man's spider-sense seems to not work as Bone Saw then whacks him in the head with a metal folding chair. He then hits him on the head with the chair again, and then twice on the back (2:29-2:37). Spider-Man is then grabbed by the leg and slammed into one of the metal cage walls, followed by another (2:42-2:46). For all of this though, Spider-Man has remained conscious, and when Bone Saw tries to bring a crowbar on him, Spider-Man kicks him about ten times, knocking Bone Saw back. A follow up kick sends Bone Saw flying over Spider-Man's head and into one of the cage walls, which finally knocks him out. The whole lasted from 2:07 to 3:04, which means that the fight promoter's claim that Spider-Man pinned him in two minutes is inaccurate. In fact, Spider-Man one in less than one minute, and Bone Saw only put up any kind of a fight at all via a metal chair (in other words, cheating).

From 0:24-0:36 he climbs up a nearby wall before then launching himself forwards to cover more distance more quickly, even though by that point he was already fairly high up (meaning he crawls fast). Then, at 0:42 he leaps from that wall and goes sailing through the air long enough to reach a nearby flagpole that he then launches himself off of. This sends him pretty far. From 0:48 to 0:54 Spider-Man leaps an incredibly far distance on his own twice in a row. In the web-swing that follows (itself a bit more messy and clumsy on his part due to it being his first ever attempt), Spider-Man manages to catch up with the car he is chasing, and then lands on it. With one punch at around the 2:00 mark Spider-Man drives his fist right through the car's metal roof, showing that Spider-Man hits hard enough to punch right through metal. At 2:17-2:21 he performs another one of his superhuman leaps, this time jumping over a bridge so it doesn't kill him. With another punch at 2:27 he shatters the glass front of the car with no injury to his own hand (something you're not going to see a normal human do), and then leaps far into the air yet again to get clear of the car's crashing into a metal gate.

After using the shadows to trick Dennis Carradine into thinking that Spider-Man is in front of him, the web-head sneaks up from behind and then attacks. He smashes his head through two glass windows, and then dodges a few knife strikes from Carradine before then kicking the knife right out of his hand. A double-kick knocks Carradine back and clearly injures him, as he is bent over, pleading, and backed up against the window. A now very enraged Spider-Man grabs Carradine and lifts him up, before then seeing that Carradine is the same man he left run by him earlier. After coming over his shock and horror, Spider-Man reacts fast enough to keep Carradine from shooting him in the face, and then either dislocates, fractures, or breaks Carradine's gun-arm. The scene is ambiguous as to how much Carradine's arm was injured, but we hear a snapping sound and he howls in pain. He then nervously backs away and accidentally falls to his death.

Time of knife dodging: 3:17-:319

Time of stopping Carradine from firing and then injuring his arm enough to cause both a snapping sound and a cry of pain from Carradine: 3:54-3:56

After his first few outings in the iconic Spider-Man costume see him foiling some common crooks in both melee and with webbing, we get the first fight with the Green Goblin. To start, Peter's Spider-Sense alerts him to the danger of the Green Goblin just before the Goblin first appears a fair distance away from him (so far away that the Oscorp board members present couldn't even tell that it was their stolen glider until one saw that it was through binoculars). At 1:12 to 1:14 he shows strength sufficient to pull back and away from falling debris two grown adults via his webbing, and also pull them back a fair distance. At 1:54 he swings in and kicks the superhuman (and armored) Green Goblin so hard he knocks him right off of his glider. Spider-Man then at 2:30 takes a hit from the superhuman Green Goblin that sends him flying back several feet and through at least three tables. Spider-Man's being sent flying is finally stopped by slamming into a lamppost with enough force to cause it to fall down. And yet despite taking a hit like that, Spider-Man is able to get back up again. He then runs fast enough to consistently stay ahead of the gunfire shot at him from the Green Goblin's glider before then web-swinging onto a nearby balloon. From there, Spider-Man plays "leap-frog", leaping from balloon to balloon until he reaches Mary Jane. It is at this point however that the Green Goblin grabs him and smashes him at super-fast speed into a window with enough force to shatter it (3:08-3:10). Green Goblin follows this up by slamming Spider-Man's head into what's left of the window three times.

Still conscious and combat capable, Spider-Man strikes back and holds his own for a little while before Green Goblin is then able to knock Spider-Man off his glider. Spider-Man falls and lands, and isn't at all effected by this. After blinding Green Goblin with webbing to the face, Spider-Man punches through the glider's metal bottom and rips out part of it's inner machinery, damaging it and causing to malfunction enough that Green Goblin has to retreat (3:30-3:32). Finally, he catches Mary Jane before she hits the ground and then swings off with her in tow.

From 0:08 to 0:33, Spider-Man tears into a group of thugs numbering at least four and as many as six. He not only makes swift work of them, he also shows sufficient strength to first pull them all back a fair distance via his webbing and then at one point hit two of them so hard they go flying into the air and smashing into nearby windows. With these two, he also hit them both and sent them flying at the same time.

From 0:48-0:51 Spider-Man takes another superhuman punch from Green Goblin that sends him flying backwards several feet (and also smashing through a wooden door) and...he's fine. He then, in one of my personal favorite scenes out of any of the Sam Raimi films dodges Green Goblin's razor-bats. From 1:13 to 1:21 Spider-Man evades first two razor bats at once and then three at once, razor-bats that are followed immediately by a punch to the face from Green Goblin. Spider-Man tanks this hit and then a follow-up kick while simultaneously dodging razor bats as they make their return trip. He only gets cut by one because he foolishly decided to destroy them with his bare arms (though in fairness he did actually manage to destroy two of them in this fashion). At 1:32-1:34 he ducks in time to avoid two razor-bats coming at him from opposite directions. Spider-Man then hits the Green Goblin hard enough to launch him into the air and then kicks him hard enough to send him flying several feet (1:36-1:41). Spider-Man's mask then seems to resist being burned by some fire, and Spider-Man escapes from the burning building just as an explosion occurs. This also marks the second time he's fought Green Goblin to a draw.

(Note: Apologies for the sub-par quality of these two videos, but they were the best I could find).

At around the 1:00 mark of the first video, Spider-Man sling-shots himself into the air and by doing this is able to reach the bridge Mary Jane is on in mere moments.

In the second video, when faced with the choice of who to save (Mary Jane or the children on the cable-car), Spider-Man first saves Mary Jane and then with one hand is able to hold up the cable-car with everyone inside it by it's severed cable with only one arm (beginning at 2:56). He is then able to hold onto it for over a minute, only letting go at around 4:10 when the Green Goblin punches him. Spider-Man endures both this punch and the previous one and then grabs the cable again at around 4:18. He manages to hold onto it until 5:06 when the presence of the boat allows him to let go. But once again, he held onto it (with one arm) for nearly a minute. Pretty impressive strength feat.

A lot happens here. To start, Spider-Man is sent falling through an old brick building. Despite his efforts to save himself via webbing, Spider-Man still smashes right through a glass window and then tumbles along the ground. This is followed by him taking a pumpkin bomb exploding in his face that also sends him flying backwards and right through a brick wall with enough force to shatter it, followed by him slamming into something metal and then landing face-first onto a pile of bricks. This then is followed by the Green Goblin pummeling him without mercy from 0:38 to 1:22, which is 44 seconds. When Green Goblin makes the mistake of threatening Mary Jane however, Spider-Man gets the determination he needs to keep fighting. First, he shows reaction speed sufficient to grab Green Goblin's polearm before it can skewer him (1:56), and then manages to hold it at bay from 1:56 to 2:04, while the whole time Green Goblin was trying to run him through. This shows that Spider-Man's strength was greater than the Green Goblin's, especially since he was not only injured when he did it, he also sent the Green Goblin flying backwards several feet after overcoming his polearm thrust.

Spider-Man follows this up by first tripping the Green Goblin with webbing and then using more webbing to bring a brick wall down on Goblin. After this, Spider-Man grabs Green Goblin and swings up with him to higher ground, where he then pummels him until Green Goblin finally cries uncle, his doing this showing that Spider-Man would have won otherwise (after all, if he wasn't winning, why stop to beg for mercy?)

Finally, at 4:00-4:05, Spider-Man's spider-sense warns him of the Green Goblin's glider flying at him from behind. Spider-Man leaps over it and the glider fatally impales itself on it's own master.

Early in the scene, Spider-Man creates a web-net strong enough to hold up a police car, and makes it before it falls on nearby civilians. He then swings through the air fast enough to make it through the opening in a truck as it is passing by, which shows excellent timing. When the thugs in the car open fire, Spider-Man swings out of the way of all of their shots, and these thugs are packing machine guns and other firearms besides. Spider-Man evades their shots long enough to get in close and disarm them via web bullets. (0:35-0:45). Immediately following this he uses webbing to send the two thugs flying and onto a nearby lamppost, showing sufficient strength to send them into the air in the first place.

I really apologize for the atrocious picture and sound quality in the above video, but it was all I could find.

Basically starting at 0:30 or so, Spider-Man's powers star to fitz out, and he plummets before landing on a pair of large metal pipes with enough force to bend them badly. He gets back up relatively quickly and looks to be no worse for wear in the end.

Swings by and grabs Harry Osborn before he can be hit, before then attempting to pull the plug on Otto's machine. He begins to rip to rip the large cables out at 3:03, and finally succeeds at 3:12, though it's worth mentioning he'd already started to rip the machinery out of the wall earlier at around 3:06.

Heck of a lot to go through here, so let's get started:

  • Dodges bags of money hurled at him by Doc Ock's tentacles (0:45-0:51)
  • More dodging, with Spider-Man only getting tagged because he was distracted by how his webbing was gone again (0:58-1:02)
  • Tanks a bag of metal coins being thrown right at his chest with enough force to destroy the bag and then the fall to the ground (1:06-1:09)
  • Head endures the attempts by Otto's mechanical arms to crush it (1:21-1:31). To explain why this is substantial, Otto's mechanical arms were throughout the film shown to be strong enough to: rip a metal bank vault door off it's hinges and then hurl it into the air (shown at 0:05-0:10), hurl fully grown men into the air with his arms (an example of which is shown at 0:29-0:32), rip a metal car door off and hurl it without effort (1:42-1:44), restrain Spider-Man's hands (who at this point has already been shown to be superhumanly strong), and other showings. Point is, the mechanical arms are clearly possessed of superhuman strength, and yet two of them working in concert could not crush Spider-Man's skull after 10 seconds of applying pressure. They didn't even leave a crack. That's good durability for Spider-Man's noggin.
  • Dodges the thrown taxi cab door (1:44). Takes having the taxi's ripped off trunk thrown right at him immediately after, with it also hitting him with enough force to send him flying back into the bank. And yet, he's fine in the end.
  • Beginning at around 2:36, starts taking multiple hits from Doc Ock's super strong mechanical arms (and also being slammed into the side of a building over and over), and yet is able to keep fighting.
  • From 3:20 to 3:23 he is smashed into book shelves and tanks the injuries.
  • From 3:40 to 3:43 he is smashed through one window and then sent flying through another one...and he's still able to fight. ultimately battling Doc Ock to a standstill before Otto baits Spider-Man into coming to him (while he discreetly activates a blade on one of his mechanical arms). Aunt May then intervenes, interrupting and ending the fight.

Not as much here, but Spider-Man's powers again fitz out on him due to his lack of faith in them, and he plummets again. This time, he slams into the side of a building during his fall before then landing on a garbage bin before then finally falling onto the pavement ground (0:21-0:25). And yet, despite all of this he remains conscious and relatively uninjured.

While an argument could be made that this is Spider-Man without his powers, I feel this should count anyway because here, Peter endures slamming into a wall followed by a fall onto the top of a car and then bumping into another car and then hitting the ground (0:55-0:58).

And yet after all of the above he's honestly in way better shape than any normal person in real life would be if they suffered injuries like that. For one thing he's still conscious and is not bruised or bleeding at all. Sure, he says "ow, my back", but come on. Any normal person would be dead, or at the very least in need of immediate medical attention. I choose, therefore, to interpret this as Peter's durability returning.

Not only does Peter endure being thrown backwards into a wall and then having a bunch of rubble fall on him (4:11-4:15), but he then shows sufficient strength to burst out of this pile of rubble and send it flying (4:46-4:48). He also, earlier sensed the car being thrown into the cafe via his Spider-Sense in time to push Mary Jane out of it's path (2:59-3:17).

As the usage of three videos shows, this is pretty much Spider-Man's finest hour combat wise, and as such there's a ton to go through, so let's get started:

  • Dodges, parries, or tanks hits from Doc Ock's mechanical arms throughout. And as already mentioned Otto's arms are superhuman strong going by feats. They also go as fast as he can think, sense Otto is directly controlling them with his mind (something he explicitly states earlier in the film).
  • Holds onto a large metal clock-handle attached to a web-line with one arm and then hurls it with enough force to send it rocketing up at Doc Ock and also smashing through stone and then embedding itself in metal. (First video, 0:55-1:01)
  • Kicks the broken pieces of the metal clock handle away from him (First video, 1:06-1:07)
  • Falls onto the metal top of a moving train and then goes tumbling along it for a few moments (also leaving depressions in the top)...and he's fine. (First video, 1:17-1:25)
  • Reacted in time to duck under the top of a tunnel/bridge. (First video, 1:37-1:38)
  • Kicks Doctor Octopus so hard he knocks him back a ways. It takes Otto's arms holding him to up to keep him from getting put on his back (First video, 1:41)
  • Took being smashed right through metal doors and then slamming into the ones on the opposite end with enough force to leave a depression in them. (First video, 1:59-2:01).
  • Smashes through a window and is fine (First video, 2:04)
  • Reacts in time to avoid a speeding train coming from the opposite direction (First video, 2:11-2:14)
  • Falls from a great height and then lands and tumbles along a road, and remains conscious and combat capable (First video, 2:25-2:27)
  • Mask endures close-range sparks, though Spider-Man then removes it due to it's being temporarily rendered ineffective. (First video, 3:34-3:36)
  • Takes having his foot smashed against multiple tracks at a high velocity for almost ten seconds before he's finally forced to stop. While he did endure harm from this, he is shown to still be able to stand upright, showing that his leg was neither fractured nor broken. (First video, 4:00-4:10)
  • In an incredible feat of strength and pain tolerance, Spider-Man (with assistance from multiple web-lines) manages to bring a speeding and out of control train to a halt. This takes everything he had strength wise, and he collapsed from fatigue (Second video, 0:00-0:47). One bit of shameless Jesus allegory later, and Spider-Man regains consciousness, though he remains weakened enough that Doc Ock is able to one-shot him. Later though, he effortlessly breaks free of his metal restraints at Harry Osborn's house (Second video, 4:49-4:50).
  • Now, in the extended cut, some additional scenes are added. More specifically, at 2:51-2:52 of the third video, Spider-Man plants Doc Ock into the top of the train, and at 2:59-3:08 takes being slammed into the metal top of the train by Doc Ock's arms and then a window with enough force to shatter it. He then, at 3:16-3:22 takes having his head slamming into metal objects lining the train track at a high velocity, before then, at roughly 3:24 getting hit by a train, and incredibly, tanking it. No seriously. He gets hit by a train and then swings back in for another go seemingly no worse for wear. That's pretty nuts.

And here's another major scene with a lot to it...

  • Manages to web Doc Ock's tentacles together (First video, 1:24)
  • Took being thrown right through the roof of the pier warehouse (First video, 1:28)
  • Smashed through a window feet-first and is fine (First video, 1:34-1:35)
  • Kicked Doc Ock so hard he sent him smashing through the wooden floor of the warehouse (First video, 1:37-1:38)
  • With one web-line, is able to hold onto Mary Jane as she's being sucked into what is pretty much a miniature sun that has an intense gravitational pull. He manages to keep her from getting sucked in before the metal chains around her legs get sucked in and she in turn becomes more light-weight, allowing Spider-Man to pull her to safety (First video, 2:02-2:08)
  • Took having a large wooden beam slammed onto his back by Doc Ock's tentacles (First video, 2:12-2:13). He then takes being thrown into something metal and then landing hard and getting rubble dumped on top of him. (First video, 2:17-2:19)
  • At 2:41 (First video), he manages to finally best Doc Ock by putting some large cables in-between him and Doc Ock's blade, which electrocutes Doc Ock into submission.
  • Rips large cables out of their sockets (First video, 2:43-2:48) and then taking being blasted backwards by the electrical explosion (First video, 2:48-2:52).
  • Beginning at 2:58 of the second video, Spider-Man manages to (with some strain on his part) hold up a large wall of a collapsing warehouse to keep it from crushing Mary Jane and himself. He manages to hold it up until 4:03 (over a minute) before then hurling it away. Whether he did this via his own strength or because the gravitational pull of the mini-sun made it easier to dispose of the partly metal wall is unclear, but given that said mini-sun had already been drowned in the river, it's possible Spider-Man did via his own strength. Impressive either way.

And now for the Spider-Man 3 feats. As I mentioned above, I didn't actually like this movie very much, but it did have some solid action scenes that make Raimi Spider-Man look all the more impressive, so I'm including the feats from this film anyway. To begin with, Peter's first fight against New Goblin:

To go over everything here:

  • Takes punches from New Goblin throughout. This is impressive because New Goblin possess superhuman strength sufficient to rip a huge chunk of a brick wall off (1:04-1:07), and then pulverize that wall chunk with a single hit (1:14). And yet despite all of that Peter took multiple punches from him. He also took being slashed with New Goblin's wrist blades and kept fighting, as well as being hit by New Goblin's glider, which as shown later in the video can sever metal pipes, and also hit Peter so hard he went flying into a brick wall with enough force to leave a crater in it (0:37-0:39). So taking hits from the glider is impressive also.
  • Swung fast enough to be able to evade/outpace New Goblin on his glider
  • At 1:26-1:32 he took having his body slammed against the side of a building repeatedly as New Goblin flew by said building holding onto Peter's leg, and then immediately after endured being thrown right through two windows.
  • Beginning at about 1:44 he engages New Goblin in a contest of strength and ultimately manages to force him off of his own sky-stick at 1:50, also throwing him a pretty far distance.
  • At 2:04 he tanks another hit from New Goblin, but then as he falls he manages to land on the building feet-first and then roll along it, rather than tumbling along gracelessly.
  • From 2:10-2:14 he manages to outrun New Goblin on his glider while on foot, also ducking in time to evade his charge (and New Goblin's glider is here shown to be strong enough to sever metal pipes).
  • Beginning at 3:06 he manages to outpace five razor-bats hurled at him by New Goblin for a while, and even when they catch up with him and cut him he's still able to keep swinging. Also worth noting that these same razor-bats were able to effortlessly go through a metal pipe (3:06-3:07) yet only deal him slight wounds.
  • At around the 3:30 mark Peter starts neutralizing the remaining four razorbats with his webbing. He then at around 3:35 hurls a razor-bat via webbing back at New Goblin, which distracts him enough for Peter to create a web-line that New Goblin flies into, launching him off his glider and into a metal pipe that he hits with enough force to get knocked out. This ends the fight in what is a clear win for Peter.

Moves fast enough to not only catch Gwen before she falls to her death, but also moves both her and himself past some nearby rubble right before it smashes together (2:35-2:37).

At 1:16, Spider-Man takes a punch from Sandman that sends him flying out of the back of the armored truck (and through metal doors) and then onto the road, and he's fine. Beginning at about 1:37 he takes additional hits from Sandman. Now, I feel I should stress that Sandman has shown himself to be strong enough to go right through the metal roof of a truck (shown earlier in the video at 0:39), and he did hit Spider-Man hard enough to send him through the metal doors of the truck. In the video below he's shown to hit so hard that he pulverizes stone with his blows. So Sandman is clearly possessed of superhuman strength, and yet Spider-Man takes multiple hits from him. At about 1:39 he goes swinging right into the front of a bus and hits it with enough force to badly crack the front...and he's fine. At 1:42 he's hit by Sandman so hard he goes through one of the metal sides of the truck, and still he's conscious and combat capable. Finally, at around 1:52 he gets caught in a car crash that sees the truck he's in go tumbling along the road...and he comes out no worse for wear.

Before we begin with the next few, I would like to preface by saying that I don't believe that the black costume actually enhanced Spider-Man at all in the movies. Spider-Man does mention how the "power" of the symbiote feels good, but I could argue that part of that is just the intoxicating and corrupting nature of the symbiote, and that the feeling was more psychological than factual. And besides that, none of Spider-Man's showings with the symbiote were things he did not already display the ability to do strength and durability wise, so therefore in the end I argue that the symbiote did not enhance him and thus have no problem showing symbiote Spider-Man showings here. With that out of the way, the second fight against Sandman:

Lot to go through here:

  • Moves out of Sandman's way before the villain can hit him (1:58 about), and then dodges a punch from him that pulverizes the part of stone that his fist strikes instead (1:59 about)
  • With a swinging double-kick he hits Sandman and then keeps up the swing so as to get him further down the tunnel and then over the edge, causing Sandman to land on a lower track.
  • Tanks a kick from Sandman followed by a back-hand from one of his sand-fists (2:29-2:30)
  • Moves out of the way of a speeding train in time (2:31-2:32)
  • Kicks Sandman so hard he sends him right into a nearby train. Sandman then lands on something metal. (2:38-2:40)
  • Takes a head-butt from Sandman (2:50-2:51), followed by hitting the sides of two moving trains in succession (2:52-2:54), and then a punch from Sandman that sends him flying backwards into the window of a moving train (2:54-2:56), and yet he still manages to keep fighting.
  • After taking another punch to the face from Sandman, Spider-Man and Sandman land on a metal pipe. Spider-Man punches Sandman so hard that the pipe splits in two and both Spider-Man and Sandman go plummeting (3:04-3:05).
  • With a swinging double-kick he impacts a large metal pipe so hard he leaves a large depression in it (3:28 roughly).
  • Spider-Man manages to rip apart the aforementioned large metal pipe, and in doing so unleash a large torrent of water (3:32-3:40). This takes Sandman down.

Lot to go through here, too:

  • Takes a stab to the side at around 0:49, and yet keeps fighting for almost two minutes after that without getting any medical attention whatsoever. And he doesn't even look all that inconvenienced by it either.
  • Dodges a sweeping attack from Harry's arm-blades (0:58)
  • Kicks the superhuman Harry so hard he sends him flying backwards and into a nearby wall (0:59-1:00).
  • Dodges another sweeping attack from the arm blades, and then another one after that. (1:02-1:03)
  • Catches Harry's arm and holds it at bay (1:06-1:10). And again, Harry is superhuman, so keeping his arm at bay is no small feat.
  • Ducks under a stab from Harry's arm blades (1:12) and then breaks them before Harry can pull them out of the pillar (1:13)
  • Takes a kick from Harry that sends him flying into the air, crashing onto a table, and then sliding along the table (1:16-1:18). As his taunt to Harry shows, he's unfazed by this.
  • Kicks Harry so hard he sends him flying through the air and smashing through a window (1:27-1:31).
  • Stops a charge from Harry and then throws him to the side (1:40-1:42)
  • Punches through and shatters windows without injury or inconvenience (1:42-1:44)
  • Throws Harry into the air (1:47-1:49)
  • Evades strikes from Harry's sword from 2:03-2:08 and then again from 2:13 to 2:15
  • Brings Harry down at 2:50
  • Evades a pumpkin bomb thrown at him from behind at 3:00 and then via web-line returns it to sender.

And now, at long last, the big finish. Disappointing as this movie was overall they still knew how to end it on a high note, and that's this epic battle royale:

So, for that first video...

  • Takes being hit by Venom so hard his body obliterates the top of the taxi cab (which includes a lot of broken glass), and he's fine (1:13-1:15).
  • Takes being whacked by Venom and then falling pretty far before landing in Venom's web-net (1:33-1:37).
  • Takes Venom dropping on top of him from a great height (1:43)
  • Breaks one hand free of Venom's webbing (2:36)
  • Managed to contend with Venom for a time before then getting hit by him repeatedly. Spider-Man takes these hits as he plummets before then ripping off some of Venom's goo/webbing. He then tries using webbing to swing to safety and keep from hitting the ground outright, but he still tumbles along it. He remains conscious and combat capable after this happens however (2:40-3:05).
  • Cart-wheels out of the way of a punch from Giant Sandman (3:53)

And for video #2:

  • Takes first a swing kick from Venom that then sends him flying into metal, then falling onto more metal, and then getting a double-kick from Venom that sent him falling and crashing onto yet more metal (0:21-0:27). He gets back up, and is still able to fight.
  • Beginning at 0:40 and ending at 1:28 (meaning this all went on for 48 seconds), Venom attempts to strangle him via his own webbing. While Spider-Man is resisting Venom's efforts to strangle him, giant Sandman repeatedly slams his fist down on Spider-Man, hitting him at least half a dozen times (possibly more while MJ was looking up at the car and while the anchorman was talking), and yet even after the fifth one Spider-Man was still conscious and reaching for Mary Jane. That he is up and talking (and fighting) again very shortly after New Goblin comes to his rescue is also noteworthy, showing he wasn't taken out for very long, even though he'd been hit with a giant sand fist at least six times while also being strangled for almost a minute. And remember: Sandman when human sized was able to pulverize stone with his blows and when bigger then that but still far, far smaller than he is here was able to go right through an armored car roof. Just imagine how much damage giant Sandman's fists could do going by that. And yet Spider-Man took six hits from him (while being strangled), and after getting just a few moments to regain his strength is back on his feet.
  • After being thrown by New Goblin he kicks Venom so hard he not only sends him upwards, but through a metal floor and then ultimately hitting a girder so hard he bends it a bit. (2:31-2:33)

But wait! One last video!

  • Took a direct hit from giant Sandman that sent him flying into something metal that he then hit at what must have been some kind of velocity before then falling and landing hard onto a metal surface. (0:15-0:18)
  • Thrown right into a girder that he hits face-first (1:06) before then being punched by Venom (1:07) and then falling onto a wooden table before tumbling along the ground (1:08-1:11). He is still conscious even after all of this.
  • Smacked across the face three times by Venom with a large metal pipe. That Venom's superhuman means these strikes will be hitting even harder than if it were a normal person (1:15-1:25). He is still conscious, and his face isn't cut or bleeding at all, though it does look a bit bruised. However, considering everything he's taken at this point, it's unclear what specifically caused those.
  • At around 2:46-2:47 he breaks free of Venom's webbing at last. He breaks free of the other web-line at 2:54-2:55. From there he (with the metal pipe Venom used) hits him so hard he knocks him back a ways.
  • From 3:02/3:03-3:12, he plunges multiple metal pipes into a concrete floor, putting enough force forward to successfully put them in the ground. He was also during this able to hit Venom with a metal pipe so hard he knocked him back to the ground.
  • With a single web-line, Spider-Man manages to (with some difficulty) pull Eddie Brock out of the Venom symbiote (3:22-3:28).

Phew. That was a lot to go through. But, it's finally done!

So to sum everything up:

Strength

  • When younger, grabbed Flash Thompson's wrist and applied enough pressure to hurt him before then sending him flying down a hallway with one punch.
  • Also when still green, punched right through the metal roof of a car, before later punching through it's glass front with enough force to shatter it.
  • Dislocated, fractured, or broke a man's wrist and in so doing disarmed him of his gun
  • Repeatedly pulled people with enough force to send them flying backwards via his web-lines.
  • Punched right through the metal bottom of Green Goblin's glider and damaged it.
  • Repeatedly showed he could grab and swing with fully grown adults in his arms.
  • Destroyed metal razor-bats with his bare-hands.
  • Hit the Green Goblin hard enough to knock him into the air once, and then kicked him hard enough to send him flying back several feet.
  • Sent two thugs flying into the air and through nearby windows at the same time.
  • Held onto a cable attached to a cable-car full of people with one arm for first over a minute and then again for almost another minute, and both times he did not let go because he could not hold on any longer.
  • Kept the Green Goblin's polearm at bay while injured and then sent him flying through the air when he pushed him away.
  • Brought down a brick wall on the Green Goblin via webbing.
  • Ripped machinery panels out of the wall they were attached to by pulling on their cables.
  • Burst out of a pile of rubble and sent most of it flying as he did.
  • Held onto a large metal clock-hand attached to a web-line with one arm and then hurled it with enough force to send it rocketing up at Doctor Octopus and also smashing through stone and then embedding itself in metal.
  • Kicked the broken pieces of the aforementioned metal clock handle away from himself.
  • Smashed right through a window feet-first several times.
  • With assistance from his web-lines brought a speeding train to a halt (maximum of what he is capable of, as he fainted from exertion afterwards).
  • Effortlessly broke free of metal restraints
  • Kicked Doc Ock so hard he sent him smashing through the wooden floor of the warehouse.
  • With one web-line, was able to hold onto Mary Jane as she was being sucked into what was pretty much a miniature sun that had an intense gravitational pull.
  • Ripped large cables out of their sockets.
  • Managed to (with some strain on his part) hold up a large wall of a collapsing warehouse to keep it from crushing Mary Jane and himself. He managed to hold it up for over a minute before then hurling it away, the latter part possibly assisted by the mini-sun's gravitational pull sucking it in.
  • Engaged the superhuman New Goblin in a contest of strength and ultimately managed to force him off of his own sky-stick, also throwing him a pretty far distance.
  • Kicked Sandman so hard he sent him hurtling into a train.
  • Punched Sandman so hard the pipe he and Spider-Man were on, already possibly damaged from their landing on it, split in two and gave way.
  • With a swinging double-kick he busted metal
  • Ripped apart a large metal pipe and in doing so unleashing a huge torrent of water.
  • Kicked the superhuman New Goblin so hard he sent him flying backwards and into a nearby wall. In this same fight he also caught Harry's arm and held it at bay for a time, kicked Harry so hard he sent him flying through the air and smashing through a window, stopped a charge from him and then threw him to the side, punched and shattered windows with ease, and threw Harry into the air.
  • Broke free of Venom's restraining webbing after being held by it for a time. Did this twice.
  • With assistance from the momentum that would have been generated by New Goblin throwing him, he hit Venom so hard he sent him through a metal/concrete floor and then flying through that and onto a girder that Venom hit hard enough to bend it slightly.
  • Could (with assistance from metal pipes) hit Venom hard enough to knock him back a ways.
  • Plunged multiple metal pipes into a concrete ground, bringing to bear enough strength to be able to put them in the ground.

Agility (Melee)

  • Dodged every single one of Flash Thompson's punches when younger, along with an attack from behind by one of Flash's friends.
  • Dodged charges from Bone Saw the wrestler
  • Dodged knife strikes from Dennis Carradine
  • Repeatedly dodged or in some cases parried attacks from Doc Ock's mechanical arms, which go as fast as Otto can think (due to being controlled by his mind).
  • Dodged sword strikes from New Goblin repeatedly.
  • Reacted in time to duck under the top of a tunnel/bridge while fighting on top of a moving train.
  • Ducked in time to avoid New Goblin zooming towards him on his metal-pipe severing glider.
  • Evaded punches from Sandman
  • Dodged multiple hits from New Goblin's arm blades
  • Dodged multiple attacks from New Goblin's sword, both when on foot and when web-swinging.
  • Evaded a punch from Giant Sandman

Agility (Long Range)

  • Evades first two razor bats at once and then three at once, before then dodging the razor-bats as they make their return trips (showing he can dodge weapons with a boomerang/ricochet feature) and then two that were coming at him from different directions at once.
  • Evaded machine gun fire while web-swinging for roughly 10 seconds.
  • Dodged bags of money hurled at him by Doctor Octopus for roughly 6 seconds, and then again for four more seconds before his being distracted by his webbing disappearing causes him to get tagged.
  • Dodged a taxi cab door thrown at him by Doc Ock
  • Reacted in time to avoid a speeding train coming from the opposite direction.
  • Moved out of the way of a speeding train during his fight with Sandman
  • Dodged a pumpkin bomb thrown at him from behind by New Goblin

Durability

  • When younger took being hit in the head with a metal folding chair being chair twice followed by two more strikes to the back and then being slammed into the metal walls of a cage ring.
  • Took a hit from the superhuman Green Goblin that sent him flying several feet through the air and through multiple tables, glass, and finally crashing into a metal lamppost with enough force to bring it down.
  • Took being slammed into a glass window by the Green Goblin at a high velocity and then having his head slammed into what was left of the window (including metal) three times.
  • Took falling off Green Goblin's glider, onto the ground below.
  • Took a punch from the Green Goblin that sent him flying several feet and through a wooden door along with follow-up hits (and also a cut from a razor-bat).
  • Took (in order): two punches from Green Goblin, being sent through a brick wall, smashing through a glass window, a pumpkin bomb blowing up in his face, smashing through a brick wall from the force of said blast, slamming into something metal and then falling onto a pile of bricks, and getting the tar beaten out of him by Green Goblin. Was only temporarily downed by all of this and still remained conscious, also being able to keep fighting.
  • Plummeted before landing on a pair of large metal pipes with enough force to bend them badly. Walked it off/shrugged it off.
  • Tanked a bag of metal coins being thrown right at his chest with enough force to destroy the bag and then the fall to the ground.
  • Head endured the attempts by Otto's superhumanly strong mechanical arms to crush it for 10 seconds.
  • Took multiple hits from the aforementioned super strong mechanical arms on multiple occasions.
  • Took being hit by a thrown taxi's trunk door, the impact sending him flying back into the bank. And he was fine.
  • Took being smashed into a brick wall by Doc Ock's arms repeatedly
  • Took being smashed into book shelves by Doc Ock's arms
  • Took being smashed into windows by Dock Ock's arms, as well as being sent flying into them.
  • Took plummeting and then slamming into the side of a building during his fall before then landing on a garbage bin before then finally falling onto the pavement ground.
  • Endured being thrown backwards into a wall and then having a bunch of rubble fall on him.
  • During his train fight with Doc Ock endured all of the following in order: falling onto the metal top of a moving train and then going tumbling along it for a few moments (also leaving depressions in the top), being smashed right through metal doors and then slamming into the ones on the opposite end with enough force to leave a depression in them, smashed through a window, falling from a great height and then landing and tumbling along the road, being slammed into the metal top of the train repeatedly and then through a window (extended version), having his head slamming into metal objects lining the train tracks at a high velocity (extended version), getting hit by a train (extended version), putting his foot in front of train tracks (which causes it to smash through several at a high velocity), and finally the strength feat where he stops the train (this finally causes him to faint from exertion).
  • Took being thrown right through the roof of a warehouse
  • Took being blasted backwards by an electrical explosion caused by pulling large cables out of their sockets.
  • Took having a large wooden beam slammed onto his back by Doc Ock's tentacles. He then took being thrown into something metal and then landing hard and getting rubble dumped on top of him.
  • Took multiple punches on two different occasions fron New Goblin, who was strong enough to rip a huge chunk of a brick wall off, and then pulverize that wall chunk with a single hit.
  • Took being hit by New Goblin's glider (which itself can sever metal pipes just by flying through them and also bust/destroy other metal objects) so hard he went flying into a brick wall and hitting it so hard he left a man-sized crater in it.
  • In his first fight with New Goblin was able to keep fighting and swinging even after sustaining first a slash from New Goblin's arm blades and then cuts from the razor-bats, which themselves could effortlessly go through a metal pipe. He also took having his body slammed against the side of a building repeatedly as New Goblin flew by said building holding onto Peter's leg, and then immediately after endured being thrown right through two windows.
  • Took a punch from Sandman that sent him flying out of the back of an armored truck and through metal doors and then onto the road. Shortly after this he took additional hits from Sandman, who's sand-fists could pulverize stone. This was then followed by Spider-Man being hit so hard he went through one of the metal sides of the truck, and then this in turn was followed by Spider-Man going right into the front of a bus and hitting it with enough force to crack the windshield. And yet he shrugged all of this off.
  • Following all of the injuries described directly above, was caught in a car crash that saw the armored car he was in go tumbling along the road. And he came out no worse for wear.
  • Tanked a kick from Sandman followed by a back-hand from one of his stone-destroying sand fists.
  • Took a head-butt from Sandman followed by hitting the sides of two moving trains in succession, and then after that a punch from Sandman that sent him flying into a window on one of the moving trains that he then hit with enough force to shatter it. Pressed on.
  • Took a stab to the side from a knife and yet kept fighting for almost two minutes after that without getting any medical attention at all. Did not look the least bit inconvenienced by this.
  • Took a kick from Harry that sent him flying into the air, crashing onto a table, and then sliding along said table. Unfazed.
  • In his last fight in the trilogy took multiple hits from the superhuman Venom, as well as (in order): being hit by Venom so hard his body obliterated the top of the taxi he was on, falling from a great height onto a web-net after one of the hits from Venom, tumbling along the ground, a swing kick from Venom that sent him flying into metal before then falling onto more metal, another swinging double-kick from Venom that sent him falling and landing on a girder, and a 48 second long strangulation from Venom while simultaneously being hit by giant Sandman at least six times (possibly more), the latter of which only very briefly KOs him. He is soon standing and fighting again, not long after being bailed out by New Goblin.
  • All of what was just described was followed not long after by his taking a direct hit from giant Sandman that then sent him right into metal at a high velocity before then falling and landing hard onto a metal surface. This then in turn was soon followed by his being thrown into a girder face-first, being punched by Venom so hard he went flying through the air before then hitting a table and going tumbling along the ground, and being smacked across the face by Venom wielding a large piece of metal three times. And yet after all of this, he's still conscious and is only a bit bruised.

Webbing

  • Said to have tensile strength proportionate to that of the cables used in bridge building.
  • Could blind the Green Goblin
  • Could hold up a police car and keep it from falling on top of a crowd
  • Web bullets could hurt criminals enough to wind them and give Spider-Man time to close the distance. Could also throw off their aim.
  • A single line of it could hold Spider-Man while he was holding onto a large cable attached to a cable car (albeit barely).
  • Multiple lines of it helped Spider-Man bring a speeding and out of control train to a halt.
  • Could neutralize razor-bats that could effortlessly go through a metal pipe

Fighting Skills

  • Soundly trounced Flash Thompson (when younger)
  • Also when younger, beat professional wrestler Bone Saw in a cage match in less than a minute, even when the latter resorted to blatant cheating to give himself an edge.
  • Stomped Dennis Carradine
  • Took out at least four (maybe six) thugs accosting Mary Jane in less than half a minute.
  • Fended off the Green Goblin twice, and in their third encounter managed to gain the upper hand to the point that Green Goblin cried uncle.
  • Fought evenly with Doctor Octopus twice, beating him with some environmental aid in Round 3.
  • Beat New Goblin twice
  • Beat Sandman while bloodlusted (albeit with assistance from water)
  • Contended with Venom before coming to be on the losing end before then finally beating him after exploiting his symbiote's weakness to sonic vibrations.

And that's everything. With all of that out of the way, I hope you come to respect the Sam Raimi Spider-Man as much as I do.

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"Whatever life holds in store for me, I will never forget these words: With Great Power, comes Great Responsibility. This is my gift, my curse. Who am I? I'm Spider-Man."

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Titans TV Show-What I'd like to see Part II

So with my last blog post having covered what I’d like to see out of the Titans show in respects to the Titans themselves, I think now it’s time to consider what villains could work for the show, and which ones would be desirable:

The Villains:

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Deathstroke

  • What I’d like to see: The beautiful thing with Deathstroke is that every adaptation is an excuse to give him another badass redesign of his costume. The Titans show should be no exception. However, I think that for this show a costume that really pays homage to his classic look is desirable. As in, armored, but not bulky armor (reflecting the classic chainmail look), and with some orange to balance out the blue. The mask being retained is of course a must, but that’s easy to do. Deathstroke’s superhuman physicality being retained is probably necessary (he IS fighting a bunch of superhumans after all), and what definitely needs to be kept is his fighting ability and cunning, which can allow him to both outthink the Titans as well as outfight them, making him a truly daunting adversary, just like in the comics. Obviously, I do kind of want to see at least one instance of Deathstroke taking Nightwing to school, and the fact that Batman will be appearing in this show gives me the faintest of hopes that Deathstroke showing up could give us the first live action take on a Batman Vs. Deathstroke battle…ever.
  • Why he’s a good choice: Deathstroke may have credibility as a Batman villain (and thanks to Arrow a Green Arrow villain), but he is generally considered the Teen Titan’s chief foe, and with good reason. The major Teen Titans story Judas Contract had him as the main villain, the third Ravager has been both an ally and an enemy to the Titans, and of course there’s Slade from the Teen Titans cartoon. So in all, Deathstroke is a perfectly logical choice, and especially since the presence of Nightwing and Batman in the show leaves open the possibility (however remote) of a live action Batman/Deathstroke or Batman and Nightwing Vs. Deathstroke fight. Who doesn’t want to see that? (Rhetorical question).
  • What are the odds?: Unfortunately not good. Not only has he already shown up on Arrow, but Manu Bennet’s doing such a fine job with the character makes his a tough act to follow. To make Deathstroke work on Titans, they’d have to give him an entirely different backstory, and also probably have him start out as Deathstroke from the beginning to distance themselves from Slade’s “hero turned to the Dark Side” backstory in Arrow. But again, his being such a major foe in that show makes his inclusion in a completely unrelated live action DC show highly unlikely. Only his being the Titan’s arch-enemy ensures that he still has any kind of chance at all.
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Trigon

  • What I’d like to see: Basically go the route the cartoon did, namely by making him the “Bigger Bad”. The ultimate, satanic evil that is reserved for the tail end of the show or at least after the show’s established a solid foundation and following, say, by Season 3 (if the show lasts that long). So really a big thing with Trigon is saving him for just the right moment. And when he does show up, there can’t be any skimping with the special effects here. More than any other character, even the already-confirmed Raven and Starfire, with Trigon they need to either go big or go home. I think for inspiration, Moloch from Sleepy Hollow would be a good way of doing a live action Trigon (only bigger of course), and then cranking it up a notch or two.
  • Why he’s a good choice: His status as the Bigger Bad and Ultimate Evil make him a good choice for a looming threat that’s present throughout the series and finally comes into play later on. And with Raven confirmed, featuring her archnemesis father is kind of a no-brainer. And of course, Trigon’s inclusion makes the inclusion of other villains like Brother Blood even more likely.
  • What are the odds?: Good. While his powers and appearance could be a potential budgetary concern, I also feel like that’s the only thing keeping him back. He’s the arch-enemy to one of the confirmed cast members, he’s a major threat, and he’s one of the more well known Teen Titans villains. Really with all of that I think he’s liable to appear, if not right away. But again, that’s just as well.
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HIVE

  • What I’d like to see: Funny thing is, with this one I’m not sure what exactly I’d like to see. On the one hand, a team of supervillains to combat the heroic team has potential, and the HIVE could also serve as a good excuse for having the “Monster of the Week” formula that live action DC shows on CW have embraced every time. On the other hand, portraying them as a largely human terrorist organization in the vein of Hydra could also be possible, and the recurring menace of Hydra in the MCU means non-comic book audiences are already well-accustomed to megalomaniacal terrorist organizations with quirky names. Really, with HIVE there are many different ways it could go. They could even, conceivably, do a mix of the suggestions above.
  • Why they’re a good choice: Again, all of the different ways you could do them right means they’re worth using just to see what way works best. Their being an organization also makes them a good choice for recurring villains that can stand to lose a few individual members and keep on pushing. They more then many other villains could really challenge the Titan’s team dynamics and make them work harder on them so as to be better suited to deal with what could easily come off as a dark reflection of themselves.
  • What are the odds?: Good. Even granting that HIVE has been confirmed to exist in Arrow, I doubt that show has any strong hold on them, and especially since they’ve yet to feature strongly in any of that show’s stories. I think the Titans show can probably get away with including HIVE pretty easily.
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Brother Blood

  • What I’d like to see: Whereas Arrow’s Brother Blood was pretty much an “in-name-only” take on the character, Titan’s Brother Blood should probably try to be more in line with what he was in the comics. Okay, so the Skeletor-esque appearance will likely have to be altered, but crazy cults and satanic fanatics are nothing new to live action, and Brother Blood can be pretty easily converted into a more down-to-earth one to appease the large number of people that are in to that sort of thing. Where Raven would be used for the creepy stuff on the good guy side, Brother Blood would be used for when the show really wants to give the audience nightmares.
  • Why he’s a good choice: Besides the above, Brother Blood has ties to both Raven and Trigon, and with the former confirmed and the latter’s presence as a Bigger Bad possible (and ideal), Brother Blood showing up as well is probably a good choice in the end. His Cult of Blood can also serve as another bad guy group for the Titan’s to face down in place of the HIVE, having a more supernatural/cult bent as opposed to HIVE’s terrorist and/or supervillain bent.
  • What are the odds?: Decent. Again, Raven’s been confirmed, and Trigon doesn’t have the worst chance in the world of appearing also, so between the two of them I’d say Brother Blood’s got a good chance of his own. Yes, Arrow technically used him already, but again, it was an in-name-only interpretation. That shouldn’t prevent Titans from having their own, more faithful to the comics, version.
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Ravager (Rose Wilson)

  • What I’d like to see: The Isabel Rochev Ravager from Arrow sucked. End of story. This Ravager should for starters actually be Rose Wilson, and have a similar kind of character development to what she got in the comics: as in, start as a villain in her father’s image, and then become a hero and member of the team she starts out as an enemy to. Should Kid Flash be a member of the team, maintaining the romance between them would also be nice. And lastly, her having a costume just as cool as daddy’s and some good martial arts and sword fighting choreography are musts.
  • Why she’s a good choice: Ravager can represent the “bad guy gone good” archetype, which is honestly something we haven’t seen all that much of in a live action superhero show, frankly almost never if memory is serving me right. This therefore could be a first, showing a supervillain who becomes a hero. And again, the presence of Kid Flash could also mean we get a B Couple to Nightwing and Starfire’s A Couple, so that’s also good. And who wouldn’t want to see a good Nightwing Vs. Ravager fight?
  • What are the odds?: Hard to say. A lot of it depends on whether or not Deathstroke will appear. If he does, then I don’t see Ravager’s inclusion as being all that out of left field, especially since it would be a Ravager different from the one in Arrow. So ultimately, if Deathstroke shows, then Ravager likely will too. Otherwise, probably not as likely.
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Blackfire

  • What I’d like to see: From a special effects standpoint, Blackfire needs to be the Zod to Starfire’s Superman; as in having all of the same powers and capable of giving her sister a run for her money in a spectacular superhuman battle. Once again, budget cannot be skimped with this character. Giving Blackfire some alien minions (which she usually has in some form or another) would also probably be good, since it gives the Titans someone to fight other than standard Earth-bound foes. Whether Blackfire gets portrayed as an unsympathetic sociopath (like in the cartoons and pre-New 52 comics), or more sympathetic (like in the New 52) will depend, and there are benefits to both interpretations. A more tragic and sympathetic Blackfire may be better though just to have the tragedy (and drama) that comes from a conflict where two loving sisters turned on each-other. Basically, alien Cain and Abel.
  • Why she’s a good choice: Starfire’s already been confirmed for the show as it turns out, and who better a foe for her to face than her own chief nemesis from the comics? And again, Blackfire often has minions to enforce her desires, and these alien foes can help be a nice change of pace from all the human foes if done right. I’d also probably make a case for her being one of the more well-known Titans villains and thus an even more logical choice.
  • What are the odds?: Good. The only thing really holding her back is budgetary concerns, and that’s unlikely to stop her from being included when the CW Flash show has Zoom/Reverse Flash as well as Barry. I don’t see it as being that much of a stretch for them to be able to afford Blackfire if they can have Starfire. Honestly, I think this is one of the ones most likely to happen somewhere down the line, if not necessarily right away.
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Doctor Light (Arthur Light)

  • What I’d like to see: A balance between extremes actually. It’s very unlikely they’re going to want to depict a rapist/pedophile onscreen in a superhero show, but I also doubt they’ll want to have a joke supervillain either, so probably with Doctor Light they should try to be more in-between those extremes, making him competent and dangerous, and likely also somewhat intelligent and cunning, but not as twisted and perverted as he is in the comics. I’d probably also like to see them explain his photokinetic powers as being a result of some kind of solar suit (which would also justify the continued presence of a costume), and much like with Starfire, Blackfire, and Cyborg, good special effects with him are a must.
  • Why he’s a good choice: He’s also one of the slightly more well known Teen Titans villains, and not just because of the infamy his being a rapist got him. Assuming they do go that route (unlikely) they’d have a legitimately disturbing and messed up supervillain in their ranks, but it would also probably alienate viewers. Conversely, portray him as competent and dangerous without going that far, and you could conceivably have a solid evil genius type supervillain in the rogue’s gallery, and let’s be honest here: what group of villains is complete without one?
  • What are the odds?: Half and half. Again, neither of the most common depictions of Doctor Light would be likely to be something the show would want to do, but altering him for the purposes of the show would be possible, and it’s definitely not the first time live action has altered a comic book character to suit their purposes. So it’s entirely possible it may happen with Doctor Light.
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Blockbuster

  • What I’d like to see: Basically, Kingpin with a different name. No seriously. Blockbuster did already sort of have that role in the comics to begin with, and a big scary crime boss is fairly grounded and thus easy to do, so I don’t see why we should break tradition now. His having screwed with Nightwing in the comics in the past means that Blockbuster could be Nightwing’s own personal big bad, and represent a personal foe for him that as the series progresses he gets better and better at combating, alone and with his team. If the show is set in Bludhaven (or else features it as a location) we can have Nightwing fight to take the city back from Blockbuster, and (hopefully) get a brutal showdown between them that puts Daredevil’s fight with Kingpin in the Ben Affleck movie to shame.
  • Why he’s a good choice: Nightwing has been confirmed in the show and it’s as much a coming-into-his-own story for him as it is anything else. So therefore having one of Nightwing’s chief enemies is a logical choice. Sure, it’s hard to imagine him being a threat to the whole Teen Titans, but having him as more of a personal villain that Nightwing feels the need to combat on his own could work. And again, his being a more down-to-earth villain makes using him pretty easy to pull off, and especially so if the show features Bludhaven to any degree. Really, I think he can work.
  • What are the odds?: Decent. His being a major Nightwing villain makes him showing up in a show that will feature Richard Grayson heavily a solid possibility, but his being so unthreatening to a whole team of superheroes means he may get passed up in favor of more powerful (and more exciting) baddies.
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Terra

  • What I’d like to see: Basically, the tragic story of lies, manipulation, and betrayal that the cartoon actually adapted fairly well. Have Terra come in as the charming female hero who wins Beast Boy’s heart (assuming Garfield is in it of course), only to then cut it right open. Whether Terra “becomes the mask” and regrets her betrayal (like in the cartoon), or is just evil to the bitter end (like in the original story) depends, but I feel that the story can be effectively tragic no matter what. On the subject of powers, Terra’s abilities would definitely be cool to see in live action, and given that we’ve gotten a few earthquake movies already, I don't see her powers as being that hard to capture in live action.
  • Why she’s a good choice: Again, the tragic aspect. A lot of that is lost if Beast Boy’s not present in the show granted, but I’d argue that even without him the story of betrayal can still be effectively done, and besides that she’s a more well-known Teen Titans character and thus more recognizable. Her appearance in the cartoon especially got her quite the following, and thus her showing up would probably get at least some people’s attention.
  • What are the odds?: Depends. Beast Boy and/or Deathstroke’s inclusion makes an appearance by Terra very likely indeed. Conversely, if only one or neither of those characters show up, then the likelihood of Terra appearing (at least as a villain) will take a nose-dive. So basically, the likelihood of Terra showing up depends on whether or not Beast Boy and Deathstroke do.
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Cheshire

  • What I’d like to see: A lot of what’s been done with China White in Arrow could easily be done for Cheshire. Essentially, Cheshire needs to be the hot, smug, and utterly sadistic and nasty femme fatale. The one who can match Nightwing blow for blow and who has enough ruthlessness to go around. While the inclusion of Roy Harper is highly unlikely due to his role in Arrow, if he were to appear maintaining the “complicated” romance between the two would be a good choice, though whether it would ultimately be Roy’s being led along, or something to make Cheshire more sympathetic (like in Young Justice) is hard to say. Probably the latter would work better than the former, but at the same time, I kind of feel like Cheshire here should be more the monster she is in the comics. Either way, I feel like Kelly Hu, who voiced the character in Young Justice and also plays her expy China White in Arrow would do great portraying Cheshire in live action.
  • Why she’s a good choice: It would be nice to have a villain that Nightwing can combat without it looking ridiculous (Nightwing Vs. Blackfire or Trigon’s not really a fair fight after all), and as Cheshire is one of the more well known Teen Titans villains, and also has a TV following due to her role in Young Justice, it makes her a logical choice.
  • What are the odds?: Good. Again, Cheshire is a more well known Teen Titans villain, due in large part I suspect to her role in Young Justice. And honestly, Nightwing will probably need at least one or two villains that are on his level rather than above it, and Cheshire’s as good a choice for that as any. Plus, she’s a ninja assassin. Everyone loves those.
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Tarantula and/or Hella

  • What I’d like to see: Just as Blockbuster is kind of the Kingpin to Nightwing’s Daredevil, so too are Hella and Tarantula not dissimilar to the Punisher. And given that a killer vigilante with guns is pretty easy to swallow, I think they should probably just do with either or both of these characters what’s always been done with them in the comics and with killer vigilantes in general. Some good gunfights with either or both of them would be nice, but scuffles with Nightwing are also mandatory, showing that Tarantula and/or Hella are as good in a fist-fight as they are with their firearms. If Blockbuster is also present, then adapting the moment where Tarantula shoots him would also probably be a good move.
  • Why they're a good choice: Given that there never has actually been a good live action take on the Punisher, and also that the “Superman Vs. The Elite” type debate is pretty much a standard part of the superhero genre at this point, it’s probably only right that either Hella or Tarantula be included to give Nightwing and the Titans that same moral dilemma. Especially since Nightwing, being Batman’s protégé, would almost certainly be standing as the representative of the opposite viewpoint. And as was the case with Blockbuster, Tarantula and Hella being Nightwing villains makes them good choices as well simply by virtue of the fact that Nightwing’s the main Titan of the show.
  • What are the odds?: Decent. Granted, they’re both pretty minor as far as villains go, but so are Brutale, Clock King, and Cupid, and that didn’t stop Arrow from using them. Minor or not, Tarantula and Hella are still Nightwing villains, and thusly one or both of them appearing in a show that will feature Nightwing as one of the main heroes is possible.
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Saiko

  • What I’d like to see: Fox may try to sue, but those pseudo-Wolverine claws would make for some wonderful action scenes with him, and his having tussled with Nightwing in the latter’s New 52 book makes him an ideal choice for some awesome martial arts battles with the grown up Boy Wonder. While the inclusion of the Court of Owls is unlikely, I would still like to see Saiko’s past with Richard Grayson be maintained in some capacity so as to make their conflict more personal and hopefully, tragic. And I also definitely would want to see more of him just because he’s too cool to kill off so quickly. Finally, in the unlikely but possible event that Deathstroke is not included in the show, I wouldn’t mind seeing Saiko fill Slade’s shoes as the vengeful, badass street-level villain.
  • Why he’s a good choice: Again, he’s a Nightwing villain, and one of the cooler ones at that. Really, that should be justification enough, but his tragic past and relationship with Nightwing could also be used to get some legitimate drama out of the proceedings and make him be a little bit more than just another face for Nightwing to punch.
  • What are the odds?: Decent. Saiko is both a minor and fairly recent addition to DC, but so is Komodo, and Arrow used him. Much like with Tarantula, Hella, and Blockbuster, Saiko’s being a Nightwing villain is probably sufficient to give him some kind of chance at appearing, if not necessarily a great one.
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Grid

  • What I’d like to see: Probably something akin to both what was done with him when Geoff Johns introduced him and also what’s being done with Ultron in the upcoming Avengers movie. That is to say, the renegade AI with a bad case of Pinnochio Syndrome. All of the special effects used for Cyborg (if he were to show up) need to be retained with Grid, and likely also cranked up a notch. One thing they may need to change, cool as it is, would be Grid’s skull face, because a live action version of that would probably be prompting whoever owns Terminator these days to ask for a royalty. Other than that though, Grid’s visuals would definitely be a real treat to see, as would a fight between him and Cyborg.
  • Why he’s a good choice: Should Cyborg appear, having a very personal nemesis for him would be good, and Grid stands as being the only really good choice. His envy of Cyborg’s humanity could make for a tragic villain, or alternatively they can go the route of pure evil machine. Either interpretation could work, and again, it gives Cyborg an arch-enemy, something that the character has always desperately needed.
  • What are the odds?: This one depends entirely on whether or not Cyborg shows up. No Cyborg means no Grid, but the presence of Cyborg does not automatically guarantee Grid showing up. It does make it possible though, so in the end with this one it’s really hard to say.

And that's everything. Hope everyone enjoyed my thoughts here.

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Titans TV Show-What I'd like to see

With it being confirmed that there’s going to be a live action Teen Titans TV show in production, I thought it only fair to run down who I’d want to see in the show, how I think they could be done, what I’d want to see, and what I think the odds of it happening are. Note that if it’s already been confirmed who’s showing up and who’s not, then I apologize for wasting the time of anyone who reads this.

Here goes nothing:

The Titans:

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Nightwing

  • What I’d like to see: With Nightwing, I want him to be simultaneously both the cool-headed and rational leader in the vein of his mentor, but also one of the more easygoing, down-to-earth, and empathetic members who really helps keep the team together, almost like the big brother of the bunch. And of course, hi-tech gadgets, the retaining of his escrima sticks, and above all awesome martial arts choreography not unlike what Arrow gives us are musts.
  • Why he’s a good choice: Richard Grayson is a founding member of the Teen Titans, and it was in Teen Titans that he first became Nightwing. Furthermore, he’s one of the more well-known members of the team, and thus his presence will make more people likely to tune in, attracting more casual fans as well as devoted ones. His being Batman’s protégé will also give the show an excuse to use Batman villains alongside Teen Titans villains, much the way Arrow uses Batman villains along with Green Arrow ones. And of course, the additional presence of Starfire and Raven means a love triangle is possible too for those who like the romance stuff.
  • What are the odds?: Half-and-half. On one hand, the presence of both Batman in the DCCU and the fact that current DC shows Arrow and Flash can’t mention Gotham, much less show Batman, makes the inclusion of Batman’s protégé in another DC show perhaps a bit of a longshot. But on the other side of the coin, many major Batman characters have featured in Arrow, and Gotham is kind of sort of a Batman show that includes most of the members of Batman’s main cast, so a TV appearance for Nightwing is not necessarily out of the question I feel. Fingers crossed.

I'm also going to note that if not Nightwing, Red Robin (Tim Drake) would be a solid alternative, and much of what could/would be done with Nightwing could be done with Tim.

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Cyborg

  • What I’d like to see: Cyborg is both the brains of the bunch and also the bruiser, and I think that maintaining that right balance of brain and brawn is key for him. This is one of those characters where good special effects will be key, but also very rewarding if pulled off successfully. Really, Cyborg will need to feel like both a true genius and also a walking hi-tech armory.
  • Why he’s a good choice: Doing this character right would be especially important I feel, because if Cyborg appears in Titans and is well received, it will increase interest in the Cyborg movie that is coming out in a few years, years that Titan’s Cyborg can really establish credibility and a greater fanbase with. Cyborg’s mechanical nature coupled with his inventive prowess could give the writers an excuse to show off all sorts of cool hi-tech gizmos and weapons, and his high intellect could also make possible some more sci-fi esque plots. And of course, with Cyborg comes the chance of Grid, which I’ll discuss in my covering of possible villains for the show.
  • What are the odds?: Pretty good. Cyborg may be a member of the Justice League now but he is also a major member of the Teen Titans, and his appearance in the Teen Titans cartoons that came previously means that more casual audiences will be more likely to recognize him than say, Phantasm (no, not the Batman villain, the other Phantasm). Thus, he’d be a logical choice for the Titans show.
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Raven

  • What I’d like to see: Raven is where the show can do most of it’s darkest and most trippy stuff, which was also the case in the animated Teen Titans cartoon. Live action magic users have been shown before, and Raven should probably in many respects echo a lot of the creepiness and dark magic that’s seen on among other shows Supernatural and Constantine. It’s already been established that live action TV can make black magic and witches work. Raven should probably just continue the tradition, but with a clear otherworldly bent thrown in due to the fact that Raven is of course not from around. How far they’re willing to go will of course depend on target audience, but as it’s live action I’d imagine they’d probably be willing to do some fairly twisted stuff, especially if Brother Blood and/or Trigon feature.
  • Why she’s a good choice: Again, shows like Supernatural, Buffy and Angel, Vampire Diaries, and all of the different witch shows have proven pretty clearly that live action wielders of dark magic are popular and sell, so Raven’s presence could really appeal to that kind of audience. And like Cyborg, she’s a major Titan and was also in the cartoon, so she’ll be more instantly recognizable then more minor characters they could use instead.
  • What are the odds?: Pretty good I’d say. I may even argue that Raven has the best chance of any of the names here of showing up, and mostly for the reasons I’ve already elucidated on.
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Beast Boy

  • What I’d like to see: His being green might be hard for secular, non-comic book audiences to take seriously, but this can be easily averted by just taking away the green. Beast Boy’s power I feel can be accepted by a live action TV audience without the green, because shapeshifters have shown up elsewhere (such as, say, Harry Potter) and it would make for a very fun and versatile character. And of course, Beast Boy can also provide some good comic relief, assisted in this respect by Nightwing and Kid Flash if they make it as well. Really make sure the team knows how to laugh at themselves once in a while.
  • Why he’s a good choice: Again, comic relief, which is good to have when done right. But more than just laughs and the fun his powers could offer, there is also some room for legitimate drama as well in respects to both his tragic backstory, and also possible romance with Raven (assuming they wish to go down that route of course). So between it all, I think Beast Boy could make for an endearing and versatile character if done right. And as is the case with Cyborg and Raven above and Starfire below, he’s one of the more well-known and recognizable Titans.
  • What are the odds?: Not great. Again, the green skin color will likely be hard to pull off in live action. Hulk can get away with it because it’s a transformation thing rather than the skin color he always has, and Gamora and Drax had the excuse of being aliens. And while they could again, do Beast Boy without the green, his more over-the-top background may just cause the makers of the show to shy away from him altogether.
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Starfire

  • What I’d like to see: Considering the largely reviled reception to New 52 Starfire (I’ll refrain from giving my own thoughts on it), it will probably be in the show’s best interests to do a Starfire more in line with the way she was in the cartoon, namely sweet, innocent, pleasant, fun-loving, needing to acclimate to human culture, and above all conservatively dressed. Thing is, that wouldn’t be a bad character premise at all, and so long as they get to show off Starfire’s immense power, I’ll be content. While action on the level of say, Man of Steel, is unlikely, I would not be averse to it if we were to get it. A few good scenes of Starfire zipping through the air here, and a few good moments of her unleashing her star-bolts there, and I’ll probably be happy.
  • Why she’s a good choice: Again, if they go the route that was taken in the cartoon, they’ll probably have a pretty accessible and easy-to-like character who along with Nightwing, Beast Boy, and Kid Flash can help bring some levity to the team. If she and Nightwing are both present they can definitely retain that love story, and if Raven is included as well the love triangle. Starfire’s presence also allows for the inclusion of alien villains in the event that human ones lose their luster.
  • What are the odds?: Decent. Besides her being a major and well-known Teen Titan, Starfire can also add an additional female presence on the show, which is good. Her powers might be a budgetary concern though, but in view of what the Flash show is able to do (on a CW budget no less), that hopefully won’t hurt her chances of showing up too much. And Smallville before that wound up giving Clark some good feats of his own, so doing Starfire right shouldn’t be too much of an issue.
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Kid Flash

  • What I’d like to see: Basically, everything they’re doing right with the Flash in his show done here, but with the spin of it being that Kid Flash is a protégé trying to come into his own, and also having to be more of a team player rather than a solo hero.
  • Why he’s a good choice: The original Kid Flash was a founding member of the Titans, and while they probably won’t be able to use Wally West, Bart Allan is a Titan in the New 52 and has been for a while before that. If Ravager is one of the villains they could maintain the attraction Bart has for her, and also retain Kid Flash’s friendship with Nightwing, which TV-goers should be familiar with already thanks to Young Justice, which would also give Kid Flash more credibility with a TV audience and thus make him an even more viable choice.
  • What are the odds?: Very low if not non-existent. Flash having his own ongoing show means the presence of Kid Flash elsewhere is very unlikely indeed. Again, Arrow can’t even mention Gotham or Metropolis just because there’s a Superman/Batman movie coming out very soon. I don't think Kid Flash showing up on a show separate from the one Flash is in is too likely.

Besides the above six, other valid candidates would likely be members of the Titans in the comic books currently, such as Skitter, Bunker, and Solstice. I'm not going to give detailed run-downs of those three mostly because I'm not as familiar with them. But they're being in a live action show could really help make them bigger names and make them more popular with non-comic book audiences.

And that’s everything for now! I’ll do a separate post for the villains and which ones I’d want to see in the show. Hope you liked my thoughts here at least.

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Titans TV Show-What I'd like to see

With it being confirmed that there’s going to be a live action Teen Titans TV show in production, I thought it only fair to run down who I’d want to see in the show, how I think they could be done, what I’d want to see, and what I think the odds of it happening are. Note that if it’s already been confirmed who’s showing up and who’s not, then I apologize for wasting the time of anyone who reads this.

Here goes nothing:

The Titans:

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Nightwing

  • What I’d like to see: With Nightwing, I want him to be simultaneously both the cool-headed and rational leader in the vein of his mentor, but also one of the more easygoing, down-to-earth, and empathetic members who really helps keep the team together, almost like the big brother of the bunch. And of course, hi-tech gadgets, the retaining of his escrima sticks, and above all awesome martial arts choreography not unlike what Arrow gives us are musts.
  • Why he’s a good choice: Richard Grayson is a founding member of the Teen Titans, and it was in Teen Titans that he first became Nightwing. Furthermore, he’s one of the more well-known members of the team, and thus his presence will make more people likely to tune in, attracting more casual fans as well as devoted ones. His being Batman’s protégé will also give the show an excuse to use Batman villains alongside Teen Titans villains, much the way Arrow uses Batman villains along with Green Arrow ones. And of course, the additional presence of Starfire and Raven means a love triangle is possible too for those who like the romance stuff.
  • What are the odds?: Half-and-half. On one hand, the presence of both Batman in the DCCU and the fact that current DC shows Arrow and Flash can’t mention Gotham, much less show Batman, makes the inclusion of Batman’s protégé in another DC show perhaps a bit of a longshot. But on the other side of the coin, many major Batman characters have featured in Arrow, and Gotham is kind of sort of a Batman show that includes most of the members of Batman’s main cast, so a TV appearance for Nightwing is not necessarily out of the question I feel. Fingers crossed.

I'm also going to note that if not Nightwing, Red Robin (Tim Drake) would be a solid alternative, and much of what could/would be done with Nightwing could be done with Tim.

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Cyborg

  • What I’d like to see: Cyborg is both the brains of the bunch and also the bruiser, and I think that maintaining that right balance of brain and brawn is key for him. This is one of those characters where good special effects will be key, but also very rewarding if pulled off successfully. Really, Cyborg will need to feel like both a true genius and also a walking hi-tech armory.
  • Why he’s a good choice: Doing this character right would be especially important I feel, because if Cyborg appears in Titans and is well received, it will increase interest in the Cyborg movie that is coming out in a few years, years that Titan’s Cyborg can really establish credibility and a greater fanbase with. Cyborg’s mechanical nature coupled with his inventive prowess could give the writers an excuse to show off all sorts of cool hi-tech gizmos and weapons, and his high intellect could also make possible some more sci-fi esque plots. And of course, with Cyborg comes the chance of Grid, which I’ll discuss in my covering of possible villains for the show.
  • What are the odds?: Pretty good. Cyborg may be a member of the Justice League now but he is also a major member of the Teen Titans, and his appearance in the Teen Titans cartoons that came previously means that more casual audiences will be more likely to recognize him than say, Phantasm (no, not the Batman villain, the other Phantasm). Thus, he’d be a logical choice for the Titans show.
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Raven

  • What I’d like to see: Raven is where the show can do most of it’s darkest and most trippy stuff, which was also the case in the animated Teen Titans cartoon. Live action magic users have been shown before, and Raven should probably in many respects echo a lot of the creepiness and dark magic that’s seen on among other shows Supernatural and Constantine. It’s already been established that live action TV can make black magic and witches work. Raven should probably just continue the tradition, but with a clear otherworldly bent thrown in due to the fact that Raven is of course not from around. How far they’re willing to go will of course depend on target audience, but as it’s live action I’d imagine they’d probably be willing to do some fairly twisted stuff, especially if Brother Blood and/or Trigon feature.
  • Why she’s a good choice: Again, shows like Supernatural, Buffy and Angel, Vampire Diaries, and all of the different witch shows have proven pretty clearly that live action wielders of dark magic are popular and sell, so Raven’s presence could really appeal to that kind of audience. And like Cyborg, she’s a major Titan and was also in the cartoon, so she’ll be more instantly recognizable then more minor characters they could use instead.
  • What are the odds?: Pretty good I’d say. I may even argue that Raven has the best chance of any of the names here of showing up, and mostly for the reasons I’ve already elucidated on.
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Beast Boy

  • What I’d like to see: His being green might be hard for secular, non-comic book audiences to take seriously, but this can be easily averted by just taking away the green. Beast Boy’s power I feel can be accepted by a live action TV audience without the green, because shapeshifters have shown up elsewhere (such as, say, Harry Potter) and it would make for a very fun and versatile character. And of course, Beast Boy can also provide some good comic relief, assisted in this respect by Nightwing and Kid Flash if they make it as well. Really make sure the team knows how to laugh at themselves once in a while.
  • Why he’s a good choice: Again, comic relief, which is good to have when done right. But more than just laughs and the fun his powers could offer, there is also some room for legitimate drama as well in respects to both his tragic backstory, and also possible romance with Raven (assuming they wish to go down that route of course). So between it all, I think Beast Boy could make for an endearing and versatile character if done right. And as is the case with Cyborg and Raven above and Starfire below, he’s one of the more well-known and recognizable Titans.
  • What are the odds?: Not great. Again, the green skin color will likely be hard to pull off in live action. Hulk can get away with it because it’s a transformation thing rather than the skin color he always has, and Gamora and Drax had the excuse of being aliens. And while they could again, do Beast Boy without the green, his more over-the-top background may just cause the makers of the show to shy away from him altogether.
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Starfire

  • What I’d like to see: Considering the largely reviled reception to New 52 Starfire (I’ll refrain from giving my own thoughts on it), it will probably be in the show’s best interests to do a Starfire more in line with the way she was in the cartoon, namely sweet, innocent, pleasant, fun-loving, needing to acclimate to human culture, and above all conservatively dressed. Thing is, that wouldn’t be a bad character premise at all, and so long as they get to show off Starfire’s immense power, I’ll be content. While action on the level of say, Man of Steel, is unlikely, I would not be averse to it if we were to get it. A few good scenes of Starfire zipping through the air here, and a few good moments of her unleashing her star-bolts there, and I’ll probably be happy.
  • Why she’s a good choice: Again, if they go the route that was taken in the cartoon, they’ll probably have a pretty accessible and easy-to-like character who along with Nightwing, Beast Boy, and Kid Flash can help bring some levity to the team. If she and Nightwing are both present they can definitely retain that love story, and if Raven is included as well the love triangle. Starfire’s presence also allows for the inclusion of alien villains in the event that human ones lose their luster.
  • What are the odds?: Decent. Besides her being a major and well-known Teen Titan, Starfire can also add an additional female presence on the show, which is good. Her powers might be a budgetary concern though, but in view of what the Flash show is able to do (on a CW budget no less), that hopefully won’t hurt her chances of showing up too much. And Smallville before that wound up giving Clark some good feats of his own, so doing Starfire right shouldn’t be too much of an issue.
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Kid Flash

  • What I’d like to see: Basically, everything they’re doing right with the Flash in his show done here, but with the spin of it being that Kid Flash is a protégé trying to come into his own, and also having to be more of a team player rather than a solo hero.
  • Why he’s a good choice: The original Kid Flash was a founding member of the Titans, and while they probably won’t be able to use Wally West, Bart Allan is a Titan in the New 52 and has been for a while before that. If Ravager is one of the villains they could maintain the attraction Bart has for her, and also retain Kid Flash’s friendship with Nightwing, which TV-goers should be familiar with already thanks to Young Justice, which would also give Kid Flash more credibility with a TV audience and thus make him an even more viable choice.
  • What are the odds?: Very low if not non-existent. Flash having his own ongoing show means the presence of Kid Flash elsewhere is very unlikely indeed. Again, Arrow can’t even mention Gotham or Metropolis just because there’s a Superman/Batman movie coming out very soon. I don't think Kid Flash showing up on a show separate from the one Flash is in is too likely.

Besides the above six, other valid candidates would likely be members of the Titans in the comic books currently, such as Skitter, Bunker, and Solstice. I'm not going to give detailed run-downs of those three mostly because I'm not as familiar with them. But they're being in a live action show could really help make them bigger names and make them more popular with non-comic book audiences.

And that’s everything for now! I’ll do a separate post for the villains and which ones I’d want to see in the show. Hope you liked my thoughts here at least.

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Who do you want as the Big Bad for Arrow's next season?

After my last thread, which was mocking in nature, this one's serious. Who do you think should be the main villain in Arrow's fourth season, if ever it should get one?

SPOILERS for anyone not caught up with the show. Read at your own risk.

Me personally, I'd rather they not use Merlyn again, since he's already been the Big Bad for Seasons 1 and 3 (sharing the latter with Ras) and featured in Season 2 as well, so I think we could stand to have someone else. Deathstroke's role in Season 2 had a lot to it, and I think after all of the emotion in that season (including the death of Ollie's mother), it would be rather anti-climactic to use him again.

So who would I like to see? I'm thinking one of three candidates:

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Like Father, like Daughter

Nyssa

A sort of successor/revenge story. Nyssa's not really known for her ability to be reasonable, and when (or if) she learns that Thea killed Sarah, that the former was not in control will be of no consequence to her. She'll probably seek vengeance, and especially if by that point Ras al Ghul has met his end, and even more especially if Merlyn (who Arrow is/was protecting) has a role to play in it. Between it all, the likelihood of Nyssa getting more reason to hate Arrow is high, and there is always the possibility she could succeed her father as the League's leader. This would allow her to become a major player, and also keep the League in the show after the third season. Another possibility (if not also a longshot) is Nyssa trying to corrupt Laurel and get her to replace Sarah in the League, also perhaps becoming attracted to her as she was to Sarah. Basically, Laurel would be caught between the two sides of the conflict, which would also facilitate her transition from brutal anti-hero to more traditional hero (assuming that doesn't happen in Season 3 of course).

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This city's mine now little man.

Brick

Brick's been confirmed to appear in Season 3, but so long as he doesn't get offed during the course of that season (or else indisposed in some way), I could see him stepping up to become the main foe of Season 4. If so, I could see Brick becoming an almost Kingpin like antagonist, as in an untouchable and physically imposing crime boss who gets Starling City firmly in his pocket, and then Arrow has to fight to get his city back. This would also hopefully mean that the Season 4 finale is not another terrorist attack on Starling City, which we've already gotten two of and likely soon to be three. So if the main villain is more of an "at home" threat who wouldn't want the city destroyed (because then he can't make a profit), it would hopefully keep the finale from feeling like a re-hash of the earlier ones. Best of all, Brick is strictly a Green Arrow villain, which would make his being the main villain make Arrow feel more like...well, a Green Arrow show.

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You should know better than to stand in my way Oliver.

Amanda Waller

I actually think this one is the one most likely to happen. We've already seen plenty of examples of Waller's very loose moral compass and definitions of right and wrong, and her clashes with Oliver in the past, so having a situation where Arrow's very presence gets in the way of her plans would not necessarily be out of the question. Having Waller as a Big Bad could also really shake things up for several reasons:

  • Waller knows who Oliver is, and could blow the whistle on him and thus expose his secret identity for good. This could be a good way to change up the status quo of the show, and really make things more of an uphill battle for Ollie.
  • Diggle's wife being loyal to ARGUS (to a point) will likely prompt some...problems, between her and Diggle, and also put their child at risk (and I wouldn't put it past Waller to threaten Lyla's daughter to force her cooperation).
  • It would make a return appearance by the Suicide Squad very likely, with Deathstroke and Captain Boomerang possibly returning as Squad members. In fact, Waller's letting Slade loose might be one of the main catalysts behind her and Ollie's coming to blows.

So what do you guys think? Which villain (or villainess) do you think is most likely to be Season 4's big bad? Do you think I missed any other viable candidates? If so, share your thoughts below. I still think these three are the most likely candidates, but who do you think will be Season 4's main villain?

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