It includes Emperor as he is Imperial but he is not one about to gun down Rebels, he is not imidate threat to them, Stormtroopers and Vader are, they are main targets and more importantly actual reason he did this AoE. Yes Emperor can easily kill them if he does not fight him, but even if he fights him and hods him Rebels would still be killed by Vader and Stormtroopers had he not used this AoE, as he could not afford to turn around and help them himself as that would allow Emperor to instantly kill him from behind when he is unprotected
The reason he did the AoE was that he knew he had to fight all the threats at once. The Emperor was equally a factor in his decision to commit to the blast.
The Emperor can kill the Rebels with the barest fraction of his power. Marek needed to occupy 100% of his powers in addition to holding off the Stormtrooper advance. We seem to agree on this, so there's no need to keep labouring the same points.
Not at all, he made him desperate before it, he did not need it for him, he needed this suicide blast to actually kill Stormtroopers and stop Vader despite also fighting Emperor since if he turned to help them any other way, Emperor would use it to kill him and they would still die. It is not that Emperor is a bigger threat to them, it is that fact that he is such huge threat that requires 100% of Glaens effort to fight near equally with in his weakened state means that he cannot afford to turn around and deal with the army and Vader at the same time, he would die for nothing then
You're repeating yourself over and over. He made Palpatine desperate by grabbing him and making Palpatine shock himself.
This entire debate is pointless anyway, since it's narratively apparent that Marek was planning to sacrifice himself from the beginning. Even if the Stormtroopers hadn't been present and he hadn't resorted to the explosion, it's obvious he was going to give up his life to hold Palpatine off.
Regarding weakened states, that's not observed in any source as a consequential factor (cf Vader in RotJ). Usually characters willing to go to the death are breaking previous limits anyway, as the text indicates here.
Nobody denies that epicenter is most potent, just that when blast expends to island sized in all directions, it is clear that most of energy wa snot absorbed/ blocked by 2 human-sized characters at the epicenter, only a fraction of it
Then there wasn't really a point to arguing this.
Not at all, only if it stated that he was would show that he was unharmed, yet it did not, the novel often does not need to state everything that happend in an event. It is just 1 source, game, the game is one source, with comic showing that he was and novel saying nothing
The novel mentions Vader being further damaged immediately beforehand, then goes on to mention the rubble that was left in the explosion's wake. It was clearly within the author's scope to indicate the damage caused by Marek's blast, which evidently didn't include the Emperor.
Even if we disregarded the novel, there are more than enough game renditions to outnumber the novel and comic. The comic is simply vastly outnumbered.
Not on circumstance, MMA fighters do not need special circumstances to beat MMA fighters as strong/ skilled/ fast as them, often it is luck based really, quote does not say that he cannot overpower him but that he cannot beat him at all, and that means he is weaker, which still allows him to be near equal like weakened Glen just not as 100% as strong as Palpatine
But these aren't MMA fighters. Narratives can include characters who are actually perfectly matched, whereas real life virtually never does.
There's a whole lot of intellectual gymnastics to contort around a rather simple observation that not being able to defeat somebody =/= being no match for them. For the record, there are a number of quotes that do describe Yoda as a match for Sidious.
Given that we see adding lesser characters frequently doesn't change the odds much in a contest between two closely-matched characters, I'm not convinced that adding somebody below Savage Oppress is going to change the odds much against Mace.
It is not that they require much effort, indeed they do not, it is that he was distracted fighting Emperor and could not spare any effort at all, fighting Emperor requires 100% of his effort, if he turned around to kill soldiers even for a moment and save Rebels, Emperor would kill him from behind when he is exposed/ unprotected and they would still die.He could not waste any effort on that while fighting Monster like Emperor himself, so he had to use all his energy for that AoE that was the only way, but the main purpose of that AoE is to kill those Stormtroopers about to gun down Rebels/ his friends, as well as stop Vader, not to hold Emperor. Hence why he cried no when he sensed they are about to gun them down before using this AoE, and also it was not just soldiers, Vader himself was leading them, and he is extremely strong force-sensitive, even if he somehow killed Stormtroopers Vader himself who was leading them would still kill them had he not this did, it goes without saying that Marek could not afford to try to deal with Vader, even if injured, while fighting Emperor lol
Your quote doesn't support the notion of the Emperor being a secondary target of the explosion. It states that Marek wanted to lash out at the Imperials, which includes Vader and the Emperor. And given the Emperor can instantly end the Rebels with the slightest effort, Marek's task was to both hold off the Emperor completely as well as halt the Stormtrooper advance.
Agreed that Marek's only option here was a suicide Oneness blast. However, it's fairly obvious that the vast majority of what necessitated the Oneness was Palpatine, not the Stormtroopers.
Emperor was at epicenter sure but that still does not mean he will take much of energy when blast expends to island size after, only if he blocked it all like Green Lantern cage would he be hit by all of it, as it is, he took few % but not most of it by any chance
The size of the explosion doesn't preclude the epicentre from being the most potent part of it. There's no basis in suggesting that the potency of the explosion was concentrated in the periphery.
That is true, he also had to keep him from killing them as well, that is the entire reason he engaged in this clash in the first place, but that is not why he used all his energy for AoE, dropping all his force defenses, it is to save Rebels from soldiers about to shot them if he did not act
There's no reason why saving the Rebels from the Stormtroopers is mutually exclusive with saving them from the Emperor. Again, the latter was an infinitely greater threat. Suggesting that he was a secondary target is tantamount to suggesting that killing the Stormtroopers required a greater output of energy than keeping the Emperor at bay.
The novel also does not say he was not burned either, only in-game he looks unburned, but as a comic is equally canon, I think using it is valid
The text spends time accounting for Vader being damaged by the blast; that it neglects to do so for the Emperor is a testament to the fact that the latter was unharmed.
And the game has gone through numerous renditions, none of which include the Emperor being harmed. So it's clear that the vast majority of sources swing in favour of Palpatine being unhurt.
well not really, even if 2 people are equally strong they still can defeat each other, it can go either way then, but the fact that Yoda could not do it, shows that he was a bit weaker, just like Galen in moment( due to being weakened) , but still near equal
Two equally powerful opponents can still defeat each other due to circumstance, but then, even a less powerful character can do that. Clearly this isn't what the quotes are referring to, but the act of overpowering another, which isn't possible if you're only equally powerful.
Stating that somebody is "too strong to defeat" doesn't preclude approximate parity, while being "no match" for somebody does.
He did not though, he gave his life because he let down his force defenses unlike Emperor, force defenses are the very thing that makes force users super durable in the first place, without it Sith Emperor would die when that droid used flame thrower on him, Glen let that down and then used all his energy for one huge AoE blast, not to hit Palpatine or hold him off but to kill Stoormprers that were about to gun down Rebels, to allow them to escape, that was his purpose with that final movie, to save them, not to hold Palpatine:
Stormtroopers are complete fodder in comparison to the two of them, so it isn't clear that they required particular effort. They could've been, and were, killed as collateral damage of Marek's efforts to combat the Emperor.
Holding Palpatine was absolutely pivotal to saving the Rebels. We see in the DS version that Palpatine could easily hurl the Rogue Shadow to its doom if he was given the opportunity, so it's evident that Marek had to keep Sidious from having the opportunity to use TK.
Emperor himself was not even the main target, stormtroopers about to gun down Rebels were and they got atomized, only fraction hit Emperor and still gave him a lot of burns
This makes no sense. The stormtroopers, being non-Force sensitive would've died from any kind of contact from the explosion, even if they were on the periphery. The Emperor, being the most powerful Force user in the galaxy, was obviously the far more demanding target. He was also right next to Marek, meaning he was at the epicentre of the explosion, and you think he was only hit by a "fraction" of the blast?
Regarding the burns, that's nice for the comic, but the novel from which you're drawing the desperation quote makes no mention of it, and the various game renditions have the Emperor completely unscathed:
The majority of sources indicate that the Emperor is totally unharmed, and even the burns in the comic are effectively aesthetic damage anyway.
Above all, you're forgetting that this was a sacrificial feat of Oneness. If he can't even hurt the Emperor beyond a superficial level in such a state, then it seems pretty clear to me that there was a significant disparity indeed.
2. As a result, the same statement can be applied to how Yoda fared against Sidious in RotS.
The quotes all say that Sidious was too strong to defeat, which doesn't preclude approximate parity. That's still clearly distinct from being "no match", since being a match for someone would still make you too strong for them to defeat.
@zapan871: It isn't clear to me that Marek "replicated" Yoda's feat when he literally gave his life to hold Palpatine off, which is hardly the same as a contest of (near-)equals. "Desperate" or not, Palpatine was unharmed by that explosion which left Marek dead. TCSWE confirms the disparity by stating that "Starkiller was no match for the power of Darth Sidious".
By contrast, sources generally acknowledge parity between Yoda and the Emperor, indicating that he could not defeat Sidious, but usually not stating outright that he simply wasn't a match for him.
Scaling off the Voice doesn't work since he brings down the Temple even after he dies.
On-topic, Maul wins. They're both veritable prodigies, but Maul has the advantage of some of the best training in the lore. His feats and accolades all put him as one of the top handful of Sith in the mythos and I'm not sure any of Arcann's feats or scaling eclipses that.
Maul: ''What would you know of control, Count? Our alliance has been Sidious's will all along. He has instructed you to play this game, but you've been outmatched.''
He specifically says Dooku is 'OUTMATCHED',
LOL, it's literally the same source that you are using.
I am not sure if you are giving misinformation on purpose, or just trying to joke around.
Maul's posturing, or even Dooku's failure, doesn't change what Sidious' instructions were.
If I ask you to get me apples at the supermarket and you trip and fall into a sewer instead, that doesn't change the fact that I still asked you to get me apples. Therefore, Palpatine's instruction was indeed that Dooku was to try and fake an alliance with Maul in order to lead the CIS to Talzin's seat of power. Maul saw through the bullshit, but played into Palpatine's plans anyway.
You've neglected to respond to the fact that Palpatine predicted all of it, so I'll accept your concession.
Also not sure why are you still ignoring and insisting on Dooku didn't want to get captured, obviously you don't read;
''On Ord Mantell, Dooku and Grievous believed they were about to destroy the Shadow Collective, but Darth Maul, guided by Mother Talzin, had set a trap for the Separatists. Dooku was about to discover why Maul had been Sith apprentice before him.''
Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File Remake #070 (2015)
Why Dooku was about to discover Maul was Sith apprentice before him at the moment that he was getting captured? He didn't know that before? So he only learns after getting captured?
Because he never planned to get captured, he was outmatched by Maul, and he easily could've get killed if Maul decided to kill him there.
Dooku underestimating Maul and being instructed by Sidious to fake an alliance with Maul and lead the Separatists to Dathomir aren't mutually exclusive. Try again.
Again, this is a lie.
1- That was an amped TCW S5 Kenobi, obviously far superior to a distracted RotS Kenobi
You still haven't proven that the alleged amp affects his Force defences, or that Obi-Wan was distracted in the movie.
2- It doesn't matter ''mere seconds'' or not, or when he gets wake up, if he is out of conscious even for a second then it's a knocked out. Not knock down, learn the difference between a knock out and knock down. Obi-Wan was out after that Force push. Which is why we literally see him after the scene changes he is getting wake up by holding his head and then searching his lightsaber obviously he didn't know where his lightsaber was because he was knocked out unconscious.
That might mean that he was concussed, but it's clearly an inferior result to the one on the Invisible Hand all the same.
Its headcanon to believe that Obi-Wan magically reach the tier 8 inside of one month just before RotS, while he was in tier 7 for 12 years between 32 BBY and 20 BBY... LOL.
You believe that TPM Kenobi, who was tier 7, who was still a tier 7 in AotC, still didn't reach tier 8 during the second year of the Clone Wars,
LMAO. You have no evidence, so you're resorting to aggressive posturing and incredulity. Your case is so solid I could breathe it in.
We know that even after AotC, Obi-Wan was well behind Kit Fisto (The Cestus Deception), who we know to be a 7, and as you kindly reminded us, ranks below another 7 in Qui-Gon. Post-AotC Obi-Wan is noticeably below two other 7s. It follows that AotC Obi-Wan is nowhere near an 8, so it's indeed entirely feasible that he'd only have reached it a short time prior to RotS.
Regardless, it's all speculation. Nobody has a shred of proof as to when he graduated from the level 7 academy.
And before that he was still a no match as he get kicked in the head, was out of the duel without even being able to cut his lightsaber, and let Qui-Gon die easily.
If he was amped, Maul vs. Qui-Gon + Obi-Wan would be a lot closer fight, considering that two high tier 7 fighters (Qui-Gon + rage amped TPM Obi-Wan) vs. one tier 8 would be a better challenge than one high tier 7 (Qui-Gon) and one regular tier 7 (TPM Obi-Wan) vs. one tier 8 fighter.
Thanks for wasting everyone's time with a lengthy tangent that doesn't have anything to do with my point. The fact is, the "amp" made his defences worse, not better.
No the quote I was talking about wasn't a RotS quote, it was an old one, you were using Homing Beacon 57, that's 2002.
And the quote that I was talking about was from RotS, so stop wasting time with more tangents.
And I also debunked the nonsense about AotC Anakin putting up a better fight than AotC Kenobi, read the quote above, the dueling time is longer, he had Dooku backing, and earlier Kenobi specifically says his senses are better than Anakin's in the same film.
Anakin tried to surprise Dooku with Jar'Kai at the beginning when Obi-Wan throw his lightsaber at him, which is why it even lasted a little longer, still not even as long as AotC Obi-Wan vs. Dooku.
You haven't debunked anything lol. Dooku spent the entire fight with Obi-Wan at a lesiurely pace and shit talking, while he took on Anakin with a serious demeanour and ended the fight exhausted. No amount of your intellectual gymnastics can distort the obvious here.
Literally happens 2 seconds later. It's the same, you expect me to believe it's just a coincidence that Dooku didn't choke Obi-Wan earlier in RotS, but only 2 seconds after Obi-Wan slices the droids he managed to do that, it's almost the same as the novel.
Two seconds is a world of difference for a Jedi. There's absolutely no reason for Obi-Wan to have spent those two seconds thinking about the droids he'd just dismantled when he had a far more dangerous opponent directly in front of him. It's good to know that you think Obi-Wan was making funeral plans for the droids in his head while he attacked Dooku, though.
The novel has Dooku attacking Obi-Wan before the droid parts even hit the floor, while the movie clearly has them hitting the floor before Obi-Wan even makes his attack (which Dooku blocks before Choking him). It's clearly a completely different portrayal and you're being blatantly dishonest. But unlike Obi-Wan in the novel, I'm not surprised by that.
Qui-Gon wouldn't contribute anything to them if there was a big difference as you believed, yes you should stop lying and try reading, Obi-Wan learned from Qui-Gon, and Anakin learned from Obi-Wan. That's the line.
Obi-Wan learning from Qui-Gon doesn't mean he didn't surpass him. Gillard tells us that. Anakin learning from Obi-Wan doesn't mean he didn't surpass him. Gillard tells us that.
The quote literally discusses Yoda, a level 9, and Qui-Gon, a level 7, simultaneously. Dooku is given as an 8. There's absolutely nothing about this quote that contradicts the idea that the top AotC swordsmen were better than the ones in TPM.
This doesn't retcon my quote in any way. It does, however, reveal that the depths of your dishonesty and chronic fact allergy know no bounds.
So yes, that Episode III duelists are being > Episode II and Episode I duelists are retconned.
Not even mention Lucas clearly says Maul > Grievous, and that's also another retcon or clarification to Episode III sword fighters are just being better than Episode II or Episode I, they are clearly not.
So now we have even more evidence that you can't read, since my quote is about AotC swordsmen being better than TPM swordsmen. Why are you bringing up RotS?
While you probably believe it's just a coincidence that Dooku didn't choke Obi-Wan in AotC, or didn't choke in TCW duels, he just does that in RotS right after Obi-Wan slices the droids, not even before in RotS.
I do, actually, it's called narrative convenience. Fights aren't interesting if they aren't made as close as feasible.
Just like Maul never Chokes Obi-Wan on Florrum or during the duel on the Turtle Tanker... guess he had to take Obi-Wan by surprise as well.
LOL.
Now I see how bad and desperate your arguments are. Because you are randomly using other sources that you don't even know where it comes from.
I guess the guy who took this quote tried to hide that Clone Wars animated figure of Palpatine on that page, because they obviously tried to show it as its between AotC and RotS. You can literally see that part of animation Sidious's head, even though it's cropped to hide it.
This quote is for TCW S3 when Palpatine ordered Dooku to kill Ventress. Sidious says both Dooku's and Ventress's powers grew during the Clone Wars, not only Dooku's. And he see Dooku and Ventress as a threat to himself.
I'm aware of the context of the quote. Nothing changes from before Dooku was ordered to kill Ventress and after. There's absolutely no reason for Tyranus to suddenly stall in power growth after this. This entire point is a luxury, however, since...
I see now that you can't even realize if she was thrown into a wall or not, she literally hits her back to wall after Dooku ragdolls her,
She was dragged into a wall, rather than hurled into one as Obi-Wan was by Maul and Tyranus.
If you reach a little harder, you might be the first human to make contact with Mars.
The thing is you are making it too easy for me nova, I am getting bored when I debunk your arguments so easily. You need to use the sources better, and truthfully without any misinformation.
I don't believe it's ever not easy for you, since you're willing to invent facts at your own leisure, draw completely absurd and pointless comparisons and then ignore points that you can't refute so you can give the appearance of never having to make concessions.
I, for one, would celebrate the day you truly get bored of all this.
@hellothere5432: There's a lot of repeated points that I'll bundle together and address once.
This is a legends debate. And if the encounter was as brief as you claim then Maul wouldn't really have much of a chance to show superiority.
Significant disparities can often be sensed straight away. And if the encounter was as prolonged and meaningful as you suggest, then Mace would also have a good combative basis for making the judgment. Either way, it's not something that favours Maul.
Obi Wan didn't land one blow to Maul on Florrum until his "amp." And Maul hadn't fought in 12 years and had new legs which he still needed time to get used to. So Obi Wan's hinderance is evened out. Savage also notes S5 Maul>> S4 Maul.
They also didn't fight very much before then; Maul hadn't landed any hits either. And no, Maul had already fought random Jedi and other figures if I'm not mistaken. I don't think that's on the same level as Obi-Wan literally just waking up from having been beaten into unconsciousness twice in succession.
I accept that Maul grew since then, but it doesn't really matter since Obi-Wan did as well.
Same logic for why dark-sider's rage amps make them stronger.
Except there's still no evidence that they make your Force defences better, and as I showed you, in TPM, Kenobi's defences were actually compromised.
Same logic for rage amps increasing power.
Obi Wan's amp on Naboo was a rage amp. This is a focus amp. Similar in how they work, not similar in how they affect Obi Wan.
This seems like a convenient way of claiming the benefits of something without the drawbacks. I'll remind you that Gillard claims that Obi-Wan's weakness is aggression, and he spent the entirety of the Florrum duel on the aggressive, breaking out of his usual Form III routine to use Form IV.
Difference is, the Junior novel notes Obi Wan being caught off guard. @greysentinel365 has also mentioned other quotes noting Dooku being unable to rag doll Obi Wan when he's off guard iirc. Regardless nothing notes Obi Wan was off guard in The Sith Hunter's, and the two rag dolls in TCW S5. With Obi Wan showing no signs of being off guard in any of the three rag dolls I mentioned.
You've already conceded that the junior novel describes something different to the film. I'll add that the surprise factor in the junior novel was engineered by Tyranus himself and that it doesn't really matter since I was comparing the effects of Maul and Dooku's throws, not the Chokes. The surprise factor of the Choke isn't relevant, how hard Dooku and Maul were able to throw Obi-Wan is.
The "perhaps," is questioning whether Maul is even behind Sidious in the first place. And pure skill is far from the only thing which makes up a duelist, physicals play an even larger role. And in that category, Maul dominates Dooku. Dooku may be more skilled however it's not going to matter much because at the level they are at, duelists rarely if ever mess up their technique.
We also have Beware the Sith placing TPM Maul above Dooku in raw power and skill in the force.
Regardless, the majority of sources saying Dooku>Maul in legends were from 2002-2005, before Maul had many impressive feats at all. As well as C-Canon material generally not being 100% accurate.
C-Canon isn't a thing anymore, and we have Gillard stating that it was a narrative intention of the film (i.e. Lucas' vision) that the AotC duelists were above the TPM ones. That's "G-canon" even under your abandoned metric, and Gillard has gone on to suggest that the difference is huge.
Maul's physicals are only really around Grievous' level. They'd pose a threat to the Count, but without Filoni writing the fight there's little reason to suspect it'd lead to "dominat[ion]".
Nevertheless, Gillard's quote refers to them in the context of swordsmen overall, so it includes physicals. And it's ironic that you'd complain about C-canon sources being immaterial when you're citing a C-canon source for Maul's superiority in contrast to G-canon indicating that the advantage lies with Tyranus.
You only addressed one quote out of the 5 and I'll rebut your argument here:
Obi Wan meeting Dooku's power in battle is in reference to Dooku overpowering him. In other words, he thinks Dooku is super powerful due to the way he was handled by him.
Obi Wan was either fighting in a 2v1 or was amped against Maul while only in a 1v1 against Dooku and Dooku had extensive knowledge of Ataru, Obi Wan's form as of ROTS so it's far from a fair comparison.
These are arguments that were already used and refuted in that thread. Your rebuttal only applies to the part about Obi-Wan being overpowered at best and has no bearing on the section talking about him having never met someone of Dooku's power.
Obi-Wan saying he had never encountered power of this level isn't affected by him fighting in a 2v1 or being amped. He is in fact, entirely capable of appreciating Maul's powers in both circumstances. Similarly, Dooku's familiarity with Ataru doesn't change how powerful Dooku is.
The quote makes such a clear and obvious comparison to Maul that its intent is obvious beyond all reasonable doubt; you're grasping at straws.
Source? Its indisputably far more of a Dark Side nexus, this is made clear in the novel, so it would amp Dooku far more so than Yoda.
Also those quotes were referring to AOTC Yoda and Dooku. ROTS Yoda is >> AOTC Yoda per being equal to AOTC Dooku who was a tier 8 to going to a tier 9 in ROTS despite Dooku growing decently throughout the war yet still being a tier 9 in ROTS. Also supported by Yoda going from being equal to Dooku in AOTC to thrashing Dooku in Dark Rendezvous, once he stopped holding back.
The quote from Genndy refers to after AotC.
The source is Dark Rendezvous, lol. Everyone was amped there. Read the text. Yoda himself was benefitting from it. I'll refer to @greysentinel365's claim that the author clarified this issue too.
When Yoda was holding back. We know Yoda was holding back in the beginning:
No, this is actually just a bad reading of the text. He says he doesn't wish to hurt Dooku as a way of attempting to dissuade Dooku from fighting. This is before they properly fight.
We know he's willing to kill Dooku because of not only what he says afterwards, but also because he was willing to kill Dooku in AotC. There is no reason for that to change here. Yoda does not want to fight Dooku, in part because he knows that when it comes down to one, he has to be willing to take his student's life.
It also mentions Yoda was breathing hard, so he was clearly struggling. Why would he hold back at the expense of his own stamina? For that matter, if there was as much of an overwhelming gap between them as you suggest, he could disarm Dooku non-lethally and end the fight very quickly. His incident with Ventress is an extreme case.
You don't have to resort to destroying your opponent unless you're better than them by a non-overwhelming margin; at some point the gap is so huge that you can just win the fight effortlessly without even running the risk of killing your opponent. That is clearly not the case here.
Then Yoda stopped holding back at this point:
No, that's just a confirmation of his intent. And it's followed by Dooku countering all of his Yoda's blows, despite straining to do so.
And Yoda being stated to have stomped Dooku after he "stopped holding back," despite their duel being close before Yoda stopped holding back:
This is after a very lengthy duel after which he exhausted Dooku. Greysentinel has already elaborated on the length of the duel up to this point; Dooku was contending for a long time and eventually reached exhaustion, at which point Yoda would've ended him, but didn't in order to stop the missile. Yoda himself was exhausted from this.
I agree with your take on the quotes about Dooku not being fully bested, but they in of themselves confirm that it wasn't a stomp.
Grievous kicked Maul as a result of Maul being unable to properly defend himself due to being in a bladelock and Juyo(Maul's form,) being vulnerable to counterattack.
I'm not suggesting that Grievous won against Maul, but it's something that he never managed against Dooku or Mace. And if you can beat someone easily, you wouldn't be having those issues no matter what your form.
On Dathomir Maul was stated to have easily driven Grievous away during the duel:
Dooku was possessed by Talzin and fought Sidious, while Maul easily drove Grievous away.
Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File Remake #070
Do note that the force push only chronologically happened after Talzin was removed from Dooku's body while the quote notes Maul driving Grievous away while Talzin possessed Dooku. Thus the quote can only be referring to the duel.
No, that quote just says that the events happened in simultaneity with one another. Comics can't display that since the panels have to be drawn one after the other. Maul drove Grievous away with the Force, since he obtained no apparent advantage in sabers in the comic. Nobody would have read the comic and then mentioned Maul's victory in the context of sabers. It's incredibly obvious what this is referring to — the Push.
You're also forgetting that Dathomir is a dark side nexus where even Ventress could defeat Grievous, despite the fact that Grievous is more formidable elsewhere in Legends. Maul didn't even manage to land a blow on him like Ventress did, despite being obviously superior. Maul dueled Grievous briefly (like, Palpatine-disarming-Talzin-in-one-stroke-and-electrocuting-her briefly) and then drove him away with telekinesis. That really doesn't say much and doesn't scale to Dooku at all, considering Dooku routinely defeats Grievous easily in sabers (and is challenged only on occasion, but we know Maul, Mace and others were as well).
Aside from the Junior novel noting Obi Wan being caught off guard, Dooku may have slammed him unconscious however being hit severely by the platform would of greatly increased his level of injury, leading to Obi Wan being unconscious for longer. Also worth noting, Maul also threw Obi Wan into unconsciousness on Florrum.
This is all rather pointless pedantry. The junior novel depicts Obi-Wan being knocked out by the platform, but every other source says he was knocked out by the throw. The platform being dropped on him was Dooku's attempt to kill Obi-Wan, but he failed on account of Obi-Wan's incredible durability.
Maul didn't knock him out on Florrum. He was down but not out, and recovered within mere seconds. That's not knocking somebody out.
Haven't cherry picked a thing. If a duel is intense and/or furious than neither side is stomping or toying with the other. Here are the definitions of intense and furious:
Yeah, it was a duel of extreme force and violence. That doesn't contradict my quotes; Sidious can duel with extreme force and violence without utilising all of his efforts.
You're not even reading the context of your own definitions. The one about showing earnest feelings was in the use of "intense' as an adjective for people. For situations, we use the first definition.
This is really, really desperate reaching.
The duel was also referred to as "epic:"
"Epic" typically refers to something that's grand in scale or scope, as with definition 2 in Merriam-Webster:
It doesn't normally imply difficulty with respect to an action, and the fact that you went out of your way to find some wayward online dictionary to give you the definition you wanted is telling. Clearly you're eager to curate definitions for your particular purposes.
"Epic" in its traditional definition simply means "beyond the usual or ordinary... in size or scope", which applies to this duel and simultaneously satisfies the quotes mentioning that Sidious won easily.
The SW.com quote is overridden by Sidious being shown to be in a disadvantage's position twice in the 1st and 4th scan I listed above. Also contradicted by SC acknowledging Sidious to be losing at one point:
That doesn't say Sidious was losing, that says he gave ground. In any fight that's written to be believable in the slightest, even dominant characters give ground, because it's actually necessary to maintain your advantage. Fights ebb and flow in that way; it doesn't imply that Maul was winning unless Sidious was being consistently driven back.
And again, the 4 sources I listed above even out your sources.
No, you relied on cherry-picking definitions when there's other, more conventional ones that are entirely compatible with my sources. Meanwhile, Sidious defeating Maul "easily" and being "barely tested" are unequivocal in what they mean and do not offer a range of definitions for selection.
To be intellectually honest is to take the approach that reconciles as many of the quotes as possible, which means taking the ordinary definitions of "furious", "intense" and "epic" such that they do not contradict Sidious winning with ease.
So you're left with one source saying that the Sith gained an advantage at one point in the duel, whereas there's several saying that Sidious never wavered, was barely tested, and beat Maul easily. That's in addition to Filoni's numerous commentaries, which you're trying to dismiss as "hyperbole"; yet they so clearly align with the majority of sources here that it's simply additional fuel for the fire, whether you find it hyperbolic or not.
Again, the evidence is overwhelming here. You have to cherry-pick a significant minority of sources and cherry-pick atypical definitions of isolated words in order to construct contradictions that do not even have to exist in the first place. This isn't the intellectually honest approach.
A Maul with legs which Filoni also confirmed greatly hindered him:
And Maul had previously been fighting Obi Wan for a lengthy period of time and rag dolled him twice, thus he would of been weakened.
I accept the leg hindrance, but it doesn't really justify such an overwhelming disparity. At the end of the day, he's still performing far worse with a lightsaber against fewer opponents in one direction than Filoni claims Tyranus can manage unarmed against more pirates, surrounded.
For the record, I think both of these are terrible low showings and Filoni is just really bad at writing NFUs fighting Force users. Maul and Dooku both have many more low showings against them under Filoni's supervision which simply wouldn't happen in the vast majority of Legends sources.
I consider neither of these anti-feats meaningful, but I was raising them since you decided to make the comparison.
Pre, unhindered TPM Maul slaughtered armies. Hondo's pirates would of not beaten him, under normal circumstances
TPM Maul should be able to slaughter them, and then some. TCW Maul by extension should as well. The problem is, again, Filoni, and unfortunately he would've written something similar even if Maul was at his best.
Look at (1:28) and (1:43). We see Sidious's look at the fight the first time and Sidious yelling in the second one. Both occurred right before Dooku abused the force on Obi Wan. Indicating Sidious either broke or at least weakened Obi Wan's force barrier, allowing Dooku to rag doll him.
So no evidence at all, just you writing your own script for the movie like some community pen-and-paper RPG? I can do that too. Sidious was exclaiming "Get!" right before Obi-Wan attacked Dooku, indicating enthusiasm for Tyranus' demise. Hence, he was amping Obi-Wan and Anakin and Dooku still incapacitated Obi-Wan despite that.
See, I can also just make things up whenever I want — but I don't expect people to give that a lick of credibility. There isn't a single source — the script, junior novel, novel or secondary sources indicating that Palpatine sabotaged Obi-Wan's Force defences for Tyranus' sake. At least with Obi-Wan being surprised, there's actual evidence to distinguish it from headcanon.
Sidious looking and cheering on the Jedi doesn't mean he broke Obi-Wan's Force defenses, it means he was looking and cheering on the Jedi.
@erkan12: I noticed you've ignored the point on Hayden/Anakin being interchangeable, just like the point on Mace's assessment of Dooku as the master and Maul as the apprentice.
You may believe or not its irrelevant.
The fact is Sidious couldn't even sense Maul was alive after Episode I, and he said he was most impressed with Maul surviving his injuries.
What's irrelevant is your attempt to appeal to other examples. SoD #4 tells us outright:"It is just as you predicted, my lord... we have tracked Count Dooku's signal to Dathomir's surface".That means Sidious foresaw and sensed everything in this instance.
Sidious never told Dooku to get captured, that's ridiculous.
Really? Your man Maul himself says"Our "alliance" has been Sidious' will all along. He has instructed you to play this game..."
Maul himself deduces that Dooku was told by Sidious to fabricate their alliance, and we know Dooku had a tracking beacon that was leading Sidious to Dathomir. If he escaped, that wouldn't have happened.
How is that not matter there was a room to swing Kenobi with the Force? There is literally no room to KO Kenobi with a big swing in that area, you expect Maul to KO Kenobi without even swinging him with the same velocity that Dooku did?
Which is why I gave example in the second Force attack, because this time he throws Kenobi to a larger distance to KO him, the right comparison is when Maul blasts Kenobi to BFR, not the one where he swings him in a very short distance.
Except the larger distance still wasn't enough to KO him, since he gets up in mere seconds. That's being knocked down, not knocked out.
Are you saying that Kenobi didn't reach tier 8 even after 2 years during the Clone Wars?
And he magically reached the tier 8 in just a month during 19 BBY? LOL.
Kenobi obviously reached tier 8 during the Clone Wars after 1 year, which is highly possible that it's either between TCW S3-S7, or TCW S4-S7.
So Maul fought an amped Tier 8 fighter and KOed him, Dooku have never done that.
This is some nice headcanon that's conveniently aligned to suit your points. If only you hadn't just told me that headcanon has no place here...
We don't know when Obi-Wan crossed the line into 8, we just know it happened by RotS. It could have happened shortly before RotS, yes. This is all conjecture on your part.
It doesn't matter anyway since Obi-Wan would still be improving even after Florrum. But before we even discuss whether the amp was enough to compensate, you need to show proof that the amp makes his Force defences better in any way, shape or form. You compare it to when Maul killed Qui-Gon, except Obi-Wan's defences were weaker when that happened, not stronger:
Though Obi-Wan's heated assault cut through the Sith Lord's double-ended lightsaber handle, it left him vulnerable to a sudden counterattack.
Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force
Note also that Gillard says Obi-Wan's weakness is his aggression, and he was on the offensive during the entire cave exchange with Maul and Savage.
It's in the same quote nova, this is the RECENT and NEW one as he is talking in RotS commentary as he says they reach tier 8 and tier 9, you are talking about older AotC Commentary, RotS commentary (new one) >>>>> AotC commentary (old one), it's what they call clarification or retcon.
You sure like to make things up when it's convenient for you. They're both RotS quotes. My quote comes from the BTS for the RotS movie, while yours comes from an interview for the game.
Hence, Gillard misspoke. There was no retcon, and Gillard doesn't have the authority to just retcon when he wants anyway, since he discusses these levels with Lucas.
Your entire attempt to lowball Tyranus, a level 8, by saying he struggled with a level 5 is absurd and is an obvious double standard to your outrage at Gillard saying he could cream Maul because he was an 8. Obviously Anakin was performing at a 7 at least if he was holding his own. Besides, a year prior to AotC he was already astonishing Obi-Wan by demonstrating mastery on par with Qui-Gon (a 7) in The School of Fear. So yes, he's a seven.
And yet Gillard has retconned that too, by saying that RotS Anakin and RotS Obi-Wan are just good because they are coming from the same line in RotS; The line that includes Qui-Gon from Episode I; Gillard: ''They are almost the same those two, because they've learnt, they come up through the same way. Taught by Qui-Gon, Tyranus, Yoda. It's the same line.'' Source: Star Wars It's All For Real - The Stunts Of Episode III
This doesn't retcon anything, lmfao. All this says is that they share a line of training. It doesn't stop them from better than one another, since Gillard himself says Anakin and Yoda is a 9 while Obi-Wan and Dooku are 8 and Qui-Gon a 7.
Unless you think Yoda is also equal to Qui-Gon, it doesn't stop Tyranus from being > Qui-Gon and other TPM duelists. Your desperation is delicious, but you should stop lying and try reading.
Force choke happens right after Kenobi slices the droids, it's the same, we get the information from novelization that Dooku uses those droids to distract Kenobi.
Obi-Wan cuts down the droids, then finishes walking up the stairs, then attacks Dooku, who blocks his and Anakin's attack, before getting Choked. He wasn't distracted and there was almost five seconds between the droids being disposed of and Dooku Choking him.
The film is completely different to the novel.
DO YOU SEE A KOED VENTRESS WHILE GETTING RAGDOLLED?
lmfao this isn't even her being thrown into a wall? Find an example that's actually similar, lmfao.
This and your other TCW examples don't matter since RotS Dooku > TCW Dooku:
"...Dooku's powers grew noticeably during the Clone Wars."
That's why the fight with Anakin in Dark Disciple is "close and constantly shifting" despite Anakin driving him back and almost beating him in S4 alone (though he's clearly enraged on Naboo anyway, since Palpatine is threatened).
You see nova, it's too easy for me to debunk your arguments as usual.
I guess this is another argument that I debunked easily.
As I said, it's easy to debunk your arguments nova.
So nova, again I easily debunked it.
I'm happy you feel that way. Personally, I think your degree of intellectual dishonesty warrants no further response, but if you decide to stop ignoring, cherry-picking or inventing facts, I'll consider continuing this discussion.
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