@hellothere5432:
Sure. I request we agree to disagree on the Obi Wan rag dolling argument as we clearly aren't going to agree there.
Happy to oblige.
For a couple of seconds at best.
Time aplenty for approximate another person's abilities, especially for Force users who could be making dozens of exchanges in that time.
That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that fighting in a 2v1 will lead to not be able to focus entirely on either one at a time, which naturally results in each individual member of the two not being as pressured as they would be otherwise if it was a 1v1.
Except the Jedi were separated numerous times, as you pointed out, leaving one or the other to fend for themselves for short periods.
You implied it was in the Homing Beacon interview. Regardless, how does Anakin not being mentally stable have anything to do with Obi Wan's aggression being an unwanted trait? They aren't the same character's lol, so Gillard wouldn't' be referencing the same thing for both.
The fault of Anakin's cited here was "being on a slope", an obvious tongue-in-cheek reference to the moment responsible for his loss on Mustafar. Gillard lists "aggression" as Obi-Wan's comparable fault, which goes to say that it's the thing that can get him to lose. This is exactly the whole point behind the "being caught off-guard" moment with Dooku; Obi-Wan slips up as he's attacking. Similarly, Maul's lands his Chokes on Obi-Wan mid-attack, mid-speech, or when he's weakened. It's a consistent theme and unrelated to my point anyway.
Which inherently makes him unreliable. The topic being slightly different changes nothing.
It makes him unreliable where he needs to precisely number things.
Even if we ignore Gillard's blatant contradictions of interviews both pertaining to the tiering system and other topics, Gillard thinking that way in AOTC changes nothing. I could just as easily argue for Gillard having realised he was wrong later on and having TPM Maul as tier 8 and AOTC Anakin as tier 7 in the years following the PT. Said conclusion is also reflected in the source material while you have nothing but a wayward Gillard quote to go off on.
What's there to realise he was wrong about when he was working on the levels themselves during the PT? If anything, he'd be misremembering afterwards.
Don't see why the email taking place after the PT changes anything. Especially given Maul never being stated to be in any other tier elsewhere. It also lines up with Lucas affirming TPM Maul being at least on Grievous's level, who based off his performances against TCW Kenobi and LOE Windu is certainly a tier 8.
Grievous' performances against TCW Obi-Wan and LoE Mace are clearly not factored into Lucas' vision for the character. Lucas radically reinterpreted the character for RotS and TCW, while LoE operated under a continuity where OCW was Grievous' only source material.
Consider that Mace by RotS is a 9 and capable of contending with other 9s by Lucas' account, while Lucas envisions Grievous as below TPM Maul and Tyranus, who you accept as level 8s. We're also told that the difference between level 8 and 9 is "enormous". That's pretty difficult to reconcile with your notion of Grievous "fighting evenly with Mace while hindered".
Lucas' (RotS / TCW+) Grievous and the pre-TCW EU Grievous are entirely different beasts that you're trying to mix and match.
Yes, the intention was to portray them as equals. Doesn't actually make them equals, when Maul isn't holding back.
It does insofar as we're citing directorial authority as you've been eager to do throughout this thread.
The notion of Maul holding back is something you've scrapped together from extraneous sources. It clearly isn't the intention of the fight as directed in the film.
They were holding their own in the sense they weren't being stomped, the very same line notes Maul as having the comfortable advantage.
My turn to cite dictionary definitions.
Cambridge:
"to be as successful as other people or things in a situation:".
Free Dictionary:
To be able to do something with a sufficient level of skill or as well as others can.
Collins:
If you hold your own, you are able to resist someone who is attacking or opposing you.
Even Google's dictionary gives us this:
"retain a position of strength in a challenging situation."
It's pretty clear that "holding one's own" goes beyond just not being stomped, to being comparable. The novel notes that Maul was "more than holding his own" as an indication that he held the edge, but it's far from being as drastic as you're indicating. This is in line with Gillard's depiction of them as near-equals.
Not only is this N-canon due to conflicting with the film however this doesn't portray a close gap at all. A few minor burns due to the heat of the lightsaber's slashing at his robes, don't mean much.
I don't see where this policy of being N-Canon due to conflicting with the film comes into effect. We're debating Legends to begin with.
This is even reflected in the script for the film itself, which clearly depicts them as being significant enough to warrant medical attention on Maul's end, comparable to Qui-Gon re-energising himself with meditation:
The JEDI must wait until the next pulse to advance down the corridor. OBI-WAN is impatient and paces, waiting for the wall of rays to open. QUI-GON sits and meditates. The SITH LORD tries to patch up his wounds.
Source: https://imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-The-Phantom-Menace.html
Clearly they were wounds of enough significance to impact the fight.
Awfully ironic since the "whole picture" showcases a hindered Maul having the decisive advantage over both Jinn + Kenobi with the only arguments for Qui Gon + Obi Wan hinging on maximising tiny details like Maul's robes being cut and a few cherry picked sourcebooks which pale in both authority and number compared to the actual novels and the film.
You're the one trying to cite trading cards to argue that Maul's opponents enjoyed amplifications in every fight against him, lmfao.
I've been citing from the novel liberally, in fact. You've just been keen to dismiss them arbitrarily in favour of tertiary sources and trading cards.
On the other hand, you haven't managed to actually establish that Maul held back besides citing some arrogant PoV quotes and his tactical play of luring them in. Him allowing the Jedi to believe they had the lead is exactly just him luring them in. It doesn't mean that he could've cut loose and murdered them on the spot if he wanted to.
One source.
Three, as I recall. And since nothing indicates that Maul could've won without luring them there besides your projections, one is enough anyway.
I don't disagree. But this is a straw man - I never said Maul could one-shot/stomp Qui Gon or Obi Wan as a pair at least. I'm saying he would of beaten them solidly if he went all out from the get go.
I never said anything about one-shotting; I'm saying sources don't agree that Maul could've murdered them without the separation. You're citing his tactical plays as an indication that he was holding back when the sources make clear that he was making those plays because he needed to.
Yes there is. Your source is claiming Maul needs to seperate the Jedi to survive and that Maul knows this himself while my sources affirm Maul being completely casual about the fight and dragging it out for glory.
Maul extending the fight out of his enjoyment isn't incompatible with the notion of him struggling, especially when your own sources indicate that his overconfidence is a significant weakness.
Oh I don't know, maybe because they are completely separate character's with completely seperate mindset's to fights? Maul isn't always "joyful" during his fight's, you can see that in both TCW and in his fight's pre TPM like against Komari Vosa or Anoon Bandora, he wants them gone from the get go and is always dead serious. Here however, he is joyful during a point where according to you, he is having the fight of his life.
Sheev on the other hand is always enjoying himself when he fight's. He very clearly enjoys himself against Yoda yet he also is clearly going all out against Yoda. That's just his character - he loves the thrill of battle and fear. Hell, this is even stated in the Darth Plagueis novel.
Sith in general are able to enjoy the fights of their lives. That's kind of their thing.
You're also holding a rather obvious double standard here given your preoccupation with facial expressions and contradicting the movie - Maul doesn't look "joyful" during the fight in the film, except when he's behind the barrier and taunting the Jedi.
Even the smallest amount of reading between the lines would tell you that that wasn't the point I was making. Qui Gon was attacking Maul with Obi Wan's help yet wasn't' pressuring him to nearly the extent he was alone. You didn't respond to my point regarding the duo having perfect chemistry rendering the idea of Obi Wan hindering Qui Gon moot, so yes - Qui Gon pressuring Maul alone more than he was beforehand despite having Obi Wan for backup does mean he was amped.
No, it doesn't, lol. The entire point of that scene is that both Qui-Gon and Maul were depleting themselves over the course of the duel. When you're both declining, it doesn't matter so much that you are as long as your opponent is too. However, Qui-Gon's meditation restores some of his energy, which allows him to surprise Maul and drive him back briefly.
That's all the text is saying. Your notion that every second event in a fight constitutes an amplification is hilariously off-beat and out of step with the expressly stated intent behind the duel.
I can't tell if this is either a mistake on your part, sarcasm or just blatant intellectual dishonestly. Qui Gon doesn't have to do damage to Maul to have his damage output be increased lmao, it's not a magical buff that only increases your power if you hit your opponent lol.
It's sarcasm, because that didn't warrant a serious response. You're quoting some nonsensical game mechanics about "doing damage" from some esoteric source, and trying to pretend that was a factor of any degree when the fight was being directed, filmed or written. It clearly wasn't.
Because Maul is someone who acknowledges when he is being pressured hard. His fight against Sidious makes this very clear - he goes onto the defensive because it's the best option. See also him against Obi Wan in S5, - he clearly wants to beat Obi Wan as soon as possible. There is a consistent difference in demeanour in Maul when he is being pressured and wants to end the fights and when he isn't trying hard and is dragging fights out for glory.
There's also the rest of the novel from the objective narrator and from even Qui Gon himself acknowledging Maul being comfortably ahead, contradicting Obi Wan's views.
Maul is also someone who is overconfident and constantly eager to derive satisfaction from combat. Literally nothing indicates that he wasn't "trying hard"; again, Sith relish struggle and mid-battle crises.
Once again, you're completely out of step with what the director has already told us in no uncertain terms was a fight between near-equals.
TCW Maul is an entirely different character too, as you've already lamented in this thread.
Being in control of the fight while holding back and hindered (something you also neglected to respond to) does lead to a significant disparity.
Because they don't need a response; I'm trying to cut down here and I'm not interested in picking additional fights.
You haven't established he was holding back other than citing that he allowed the Jedi the illusion of pushing him back, which as I've repeatedly said was a tactical ploy that was crucial to his plan of separation. There's no significant disparity because the Jedi are able to "hold their own" per the novel and the director of the fight tells us that it's a fight between near-equals. This has just been you trying to piece together disparate second-hand sources to try and contradict what's flat-out stated to us.
Uhhhh, yes it does. Anakin see's Qui Gon as a father figure, he literally states a few lines above that he want's to protect Qui Gon. He is not going to take the side of the man trying to kill his father figure lol. Same way you will have a bias towards the team you are supporting in a sports match.
Wanting to protect someone doesn't preclude you from being concerned for their safety. This is a whole load of meaningless headcanon to try and twist a source into saying something it doesn't yet again. Qui-Gon fighting for his life against "another Jedi" is not comparable to a sports match at all.
Anakin's observation is just an observation, and frankly good enough for your case as is. You don't need to add all this extra fluff about his bias making the observation better than it already is.
Said arguments were already refuted in the blog I linked above. To avoid derailing my post regarding Grievous vs Mace I will just link it again. If there are any specifics, you can bring them up here.
I've debated the thread creator formally and informally on this topic countless times. I haven't anything to add to this particular piece; we can just agree to disagree.
He doesn't "dominate" them. In the first encounter, he only dominates because they for whatever reason insisted on engaging Savage in H2H rather than saber's. In their second encounter, they are losing however it is still a close match. Nothing in S3 insinuates he would of stomped Obi Wan in a 1v1.
I'm confused as to how there's any meaningful scaling from this version of Savage then. In their second encounter, Savage literally charges at them and sends them flying, before continually driving them back out into the hallway despite tiring. That isn't a performance that he's even approached in the later seasons.
Yoda was never stated to be able to "annihilate" Dooku in AOTC.
Way to miss the forest for a sapling. The point is about how the fights mirror each other's arcs perfectly, which your non-response suggests agreement on.
For the record, a secondary source does say that he was "about to destroy" Dooku, which is comparable enough. What Y:DR states is not that Yoda is able to annihilate Dooku in a vacuum, but that he was about to do it in that moment, where Dooku was fleeing and spent. That's why he never did it earlier the fight.
You've conjured the notion of him holding back but as we see with his willingness to destroy Dooku in AotC once he actually fights, that's clearly out-of-character.
There are exactly 4 quotes saying Sidious stomped them. There are three other's claiming the fight was close:
Elementary mathematics would suggest that 4 outnumbers 3, but maybe the 3 sources were amped because they're on your side?
You're wrong in any case. There's four from Filoni alone, and another four from additional sources. That's a grand total of 8, which vastly outnumbers the three quotes.
And Shadow Conspiracy actually supports the idea that Maul was deluded regarding Sidious' level of strain, as he was in the Episode 1 Journal. Towards the end of the fight, Sidious increases his speed to unprecedented levels, eventually reaching a point where Maul can't even see his blades anymore. It's pretty clear that Palpatine held back and won with contemptuous ease once he cut loose.
I should also state that epic and epic fight do not mean the same thing. Epic fight only has one definition - long and difficult.
Actually, it didn't take long for me to find other definitions.
Merriam-Webster:
extending beyond the usual or ordinary especially in size or scope
Google's dictionary even indicates this informal definition which seems to be the most appropriate here:
particularly impressive or remarkable.
From the standpoint of not trying to find contradictions for personal benefit, but reconciling sources for continuity, it seems pretty obvious that these definitions are the ones to take. It was a long and impressive fight because Sidious allowed it to be; meanwhile Sidious himself was barely tested and won easily once he decided to go all-out.
In the end, there's only one quote that flatly contradicts my narrative, which is the one about the brothers having the advantage early on; but that's contradicted by quotes from both Filoni and the website saying that Sidious always enjoyed the upper hand. And even that doesn't make the fight close per se; since that could still be attributed to Palpatine's restraint.
The other quotes — "furious", "intense" and "epic" — describe the fight accurately, under the condition of Palpatine fighting at a lesser level. He only cuts loose at the end, where he "easily defeats" Maul. As such, he is "barely tested".
This is, after all, consistent with the Episode 3 commentaries where Sidious' entire style is described as "fight[ing] less than you and draw[ing] you in".
Said strain was replaced by a grin which is also noted in SC, and that grin is what we see on screen.
How convenient that every indication of strain prior to the final bladelock just wasn't captured on screen or got deleted under time constraints.
The consistent picture that we're actually left with on screen is one where Sheev isn't struggling at all.
Addressed above. Regardless even if we were to take your interpretation, Filoni's word cannot override the scene explicitly showcasing Sidious as trying to get out of the force grip..
Baseless and Sidious himself doesn't agree. See him grunt in strain and effort in an attempt to get out of the grip. And no, before you say it, Sidious laughing about being able to drop the chandelier on Maul's head doesn't mean he wasn't taking the bladelock seriously, it just means he was delighted at the prospect of both getting out of it and potentially injuring Maul badly.
Baseless? We have Filoni himself, along with the SW website, saying that Sidious always had the upper hand (contradicting that other quote you had about the brothers starting off with the upper hand). The fact that this scene was deleted, and ultimately incongruous with Filoni's commentary on the fight, the quotes on the website and other sources, makes it pretty clear that we don't need to factor it in at all. Deleted for time or not, it was a deleted scene. It didn't even make it into Shadow Conspiracy. That's about as non-canon as it gets.
Per the definition of intense Sidious was either going all out or was completely serious about the duel. I'll let you decide.
No, it was intense because Sidious allowed the illusion of the fight being close and dangerous for him. It's clear from both the start and end that he could've ended the fight at any time he wanted; hell, the fight only existed because he let the brothers down in the first place.
Sidious is outright affirmed to have gone all out:
More quotes with invisible ink — or just a blatantly dishonest reading on your part.
The quote says that Sidious attacked openings and kept his position secure. Nowhere does it state anything in relation to Palpatine's mindset or effort, only his actions as viewed from outsiders.
Obviously Palpatine had to keep the fight close to maintain the act; he was toying, not throwing the fight. Maul had to believe that Sidious was genuinely putting in his all and was working hard.
Contrast that with Filoni's commentary:
At the end of the day, with Sidious, nobody was really going to be able to touch him. He had to be the strongest, most dangerous guy. And you could see at a certain point, he just puts his lightsabers away at the end of the fight and says, “I’m done with this,” and goes in and mauls Maul, so to speak. I love the part where Maul begs at the end, because that’s the thing about Sith. At the end of the day, if you break them…
Source: http://www.starwars.com/news/interview-dave-filoni-on-star-wars-the-clone-wars-season-five-part-2
It's pretty clear that Sidious never went all-out until the end, at which point he "mauls Maul".
This would encompass their Hypori duel. Where Sidious was stated to have been struggling and going all out, both by Maul and by an OOU source:
You're cherry-picking once again. The Episode 1 Journal has Maul thinking Palpatine is struggling in the heat of the moment, then realising he was wrong after the duel:
I realize then that he has just begun to tap into his own reserves. Mine are played out.
Sidious fought with a fraction of his reserves. It was under that handicap that he "barely deflected" Maul's attacks. The only other evidence for his struggle is Maul's narration, which we later learn was unreliable.
As well as SW.com, saying Sidious wanted to destroy Maul, the complete opposite demeanour of someone who viewed the fight as a game:
You're taking the piss now, lmao.
That clearly refers to Sidious' overall objective, which was to end Maul's influence as a potential rival. That doesn't describe his mindset during his duel because it literally comes before the sentence talking about Sidious throwing the brothers, let alone drawing his lightsabers.
Of course Sidious was going there to destroy Maul. He was never in any danger of not completing that objective; hence he allowed himself some sport.
Yes. Filoni liked the scene of Maul rag dolling Sidious and Sidious explicitly doing everything he could to get out of it.
He can like it all he wants. He's already said on multiple occasions that Maul is not nearly as powerful as Sidious, can't touch him, can't compete with him, and agreeing that he always has the upper hand in the fight. Based on that, the only conclusion is that Sidious allowed it for sport - which makes it a pretty entertaining scene. So he has plenty of reason to like it for reasons congruent with his commentary on the topic.
Lucas was the person behind the films so yes, it does.
Unfortunately Legends encompasses a universe of significantly greater scope than the films, including completely different portrayals of characters we've been discussing such as Grievous. Even the Lucas-edited novels have details contradicting the films. It's clear that his notion of authorial intent is rather broad and doesn't come down to the minutiae we're discussing.
No. If Dooku was able to stand a chance or even change the fight at all, it wouldn't of called his combative abilities irrelevant.
That's called hyperbole. If it was literal, Dooku would've been one-shotted. They were relevant enough to keep the fight going for another thirteen seconds or whatever it was.
I've already lost track of why Anakin was in this discussion and I don't care enough to go back and find out, so I'm dropping this.
Not what it means. The quotes note their magic being fuelled by Dathomir. Said magic is unique, hereby making the dark-side on Dathomir different from other's. Only user's of said unique magic can tap into the power of Dathomir. It's a closed case.There is not a single quote saying otherwise or instance of a normal dark-sider being amped by dathomir, at least that I'm aware.
It's exactly what it means. The quotes literally only discuss the production of magicks. It has nothing to do with general amplifications.
And Vos draws on Dathomir for power in DD, which is another TCW-adjacent source. So yes, it can be tapped into by non-Nightsisters. Closed case indeed.
Grievous landed a solid blow back to Ventress as well.
He landed it first, and Ventress recovered from it.
And Maul was easily driving Grievous away while Grievous and Ventress were more or less stalemating before Ventress gained the upper hand.
Yeah, because Ventress went for a decisive blow which Maul couldn't manage. But we've agreed to disagree here.
Yes, except he wasn't rage amped against Anakin and Obi Wan, as per both his clear difference in demeanour and the two quotes saying he was actually hindered. And I'm not argueing for S5 Savage > Amped S3 Savage so I don't see why you even bought it up.
Probably because I think he was rage amped against Anakin and Obi-Wan as well.
Difference in demeanour? He literally starts the fight charging and screaming at them as they're sent flying. The fact that he was beginning to wear down and tire is not inconsistent with him still being enraged.
Circumstances literally define fights lol. In the fight circumstances TPM Obi Wan would stomp DE Sidious. There being circumstances in Maul and Grievous's first fight render's it void since we don't know what would of happened without said circumstances. However based off Lucas saying a much weaker version of Maul was on Grievous's level and Maul easily beating Grievous later in the comic, I think we can guess.
But you're missing the point here. This fight isn't a usable feat because it doesn't look good for Maul. Even if that's only for circumstantial reasons, it's not a usable fight.
And all that may well hold up for Lucas' vision of Grievous, but that's a bit different from the one that fought Mace in LoE and Dooku in OCW (who was still disarmed handily).
Which Filoni said hindered him:
That's a retrospective on S4, where Maul had just acquired them and had no combat experience with them. The fight in question takes place in S5, after Maul had numerous duels under his belt and was acclimatised to the legs.
This advantage would also apply to Savage too lol.
Maul is clearly the much greater tactician and has a much better understanding of stylistic approaches.
When? Dooku stomping Ventress before S3 is irrelevant since that version of Ventress is far inferior to S5 Savage. Ventress also fought evenly with Dooku at a point in DD, even driving him back for a time.
The example I had in mind was actually in S3, but this was a performative exercise in demonstrating cherry-picked circumstantial examples anyway.
We're taking Ashoka's mid combat taunts as canon now? Seriously? Said version of Maul was also severely hindered as per Almec and Witwer regaurdless.
And if you want to bring up S7, I'll bring up Filoni, SW.com and Witwer saying S7 Maul + Ashoka >= ROTS Sidious.
Honestly, given the standard for evidence you've presented so far, I don't think it looks particularly out of place.
I'll have to express doubts on the severe hindrance point, but again, this was a performative exercise so I'm not interested in quibbling over it.
*Easily driving him away. And in a pure duel no, Dooku would not have an easy time against Grievous based off the latter's performances against both Windu and Obi Wan.
Well, other than the fact that we saw him defeat Grievous rather handily in OCW, and we're told that Grievous pressing him was a rarity, sure...
I wholeheartedly agree. However it is enough to place them as relative peers or at least in the same range as each other.
Not really, not when it's clarified immediately as to what the likeness is.
We know he wasn't talking about potential since he said earlier in the quote that Maul could surpass Sidious (which is also stated IU) while Dooku and Post suit Vader could not.
I just checked the entire interview and this is the only time Maul was even mentioned, so once again you're being dishonest.
I've never seen that quote before. But regardless fair. Though there is no evidence for Mace underpeforming against Grievous, therefore it is void.
No, it's just too short to be relevant and against a totally different interpretation of Grievous to what Lucas had in mind anyway. It is a good feat for Grievous, but I don't see how it puts him that close to Mace. Fighting evenly with Mace for that period of time is something even Saesee Tiin has managed.
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