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Battle Misconceptions - Obi-Wan vs Anakin

(I am not sure where this should go. It is not a battle, but it relates to battles, so I will put it in the battles forum for now, but if it doesn't belong here, would one of the mods kindly move it to wherever it is appropriate?)

Recently, I have been involved in a few discussions regarding this topic; users have misconceived this battle in the past, and users will be bound to misconceive the battle in the future. Therefore, I decided to make a blog addressing this, as I believe it is quite honestly as serious a misconception as Mace Windu vs Palpatine. In fact, I would go so far as to say that Silver2467 made a small misconception regarding this fight as well - when he suggested that Obi-Wan was not being hindered/suffering from CIS. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, which most of you probably won't, just read on (or just stop reading, LOL). And be prepared for humungous slabs of text.

First and foremost - to address the combatants overall feats and generic displays.

Strength - Anakin, easily. Obi-Wan has no feats that approach hitting hard another blade hard enough to shatter stone beneath oneself or tearing apart spider droids.

Speed - Anakin has been portrayed as faster than Obi-Wan, and has better feats, such as moving fast enough to appear in multiple places at once and filling Dooku's entire line of vision with the light of his blade.

Dueling - In short, I should just say that Anakin is listed by Nick Gillard to be a better duelist than Obi-Wan (in Nick Gillard's terms, Anakin was a tier 9 while Obi-Wan was a tier 8).

Power - Anakin is vastly more powerful. In fact, Anakin is more powerful than Dooku, somebody who has humiliated Obi-Wan with the Force before. And Obi-Wan hasn't really done anything to approach hurling boulders the size of huts, manipulating Conqueror-class dreadnaughts, unleashing Force Screams that have shattered large dome facilities, etc.

So in short, Anakin is slightly faster, is easily stronger, is slightly more skilled, and is much more powerful.

So, why did he fail to win decisively? Why was Obi-Wan capable of not only holding his own but even defeating Anakin? This is because of a number of circumstances.

First - Obi-Wan and Anakin had sparred with each other and fought alongside each other so many times that they knew every single nook and cranny of each other's styles; they had memorized each other's favorite moves and techniques and their counters. The RotS novel describes them as "knowing each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers - they were the complementary halves of a warrior" and the RotS junior novelization states that they had known each other's favorite moves and "hardly had to think to counter them", as well as that "it felt like another practice session, except for the exploding equipment". This is also referenced by sources such as Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force, which claimed they were fighting evenly until Anakin's arrogance led to his defeat.

Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

His lightsaber came up in an instinctive parry. They had sparred together so often that they knew each other's favorite moves. Obi-Wan hardly had to think to counter Anakin's attack. Lightsabers humming, they battled their way down the hall and into the control center. It felt.... familiar, like another practice session, except for the exploding equipment.

Source: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization

Years of fighting side-by-side left these warriors evenly matched, and their exhausting duel crossed the fiery landscape of a Mustafar refinery.

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

This is one of the reasons that they were able to fight so closely - Obi-Wan's Soresu is designed to last as long as possible, but Anakin's advantages should have tipped the fight in his favor. However, such minor skill and speed disparities were probably negated on the behalf of having encyclopedic knowledge of each other's fighting styles. Technically, their knowledge of each other's fighting techniques were only equal, but Anakin was also hindered (and I'll get to that later), while a Soresu adept would benefit more from such knowledge than a Djem So master, especially given how straightforward Djem So is in the first place.

Next - Anakin was hindered. He was suffering CIS throughout the entire battle - his lack of self-control allowed his emotions to get in his way and he was thus described in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader as "vulnerable and between worlds":

Anakin had still been between worlds then, and vulnerable.

Source: Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

Obi-Wan himself was also hindered in the fight, but as you may expect, he had a much greater deal of self-control and suffered CIS to a lesser degree.

We know Obi-Wan was not hindered as much as Anakin in the fight because of Sidious's mind probings, in which he said Obi-Wan was resolute and firm in his commitment to the fight, even though he didn't really want to kill Anakin:

"Obi-Wan triumphed because he went to Mustafar with a single intention in mind: to kill Darth Vader."

Source: Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

In fact, he was still able to apply Electronic Manipulation, something that requires concentration and effort:

Obi-Wan had only one trick left, one that wouldn't work twice-But it was a very good trick.

It had, after all, worked rather splendidly on Grievous...

He twitched one finger, reaching through the Force to reverse the polarity of the electrodrivers in Anakin's mechanical hand.

Durasteel fingers sprang open, and a lightsaber tumbled free.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

However, to be fair, the RotS novel does not portray him the same light as the RotS junior novel or other sources - in the RotS novel, he lets go of Anakin and lets go of his despair much earlier in the fight:

With Anakin's grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking, forcing both their lightsabers down in a slow but unstoppable arc, Obi Wan let go. Of everything. His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. And their lightsabers.

This was not Sith against Jedi. This was not light against dark or good against evil; it had nothing to do with duty or philosophy, religion or morals.

It was Anakin against Obi-Wan.

Personally.

Just the two of them, and the damage they had done to each other.

Obi-Wan backflipped from the conduit to a coupling nexus of the main collection plant; when Anakin flew in pursuit, Obi-Wan leapt again. They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.

The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all... Obi-Wan still loved him.Yoda had said it, flat-out: Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again and again; all the while this attachment he denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best friend walked.

Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment...

He let it go.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Conversely, the equivalent of that scene in the junior novel is shown like this:

Still, the fight continued, even as the collection tower sank slowly into the lava. And still, neither man could gain an advantage.

But that's not really true, Obi-Wan thought as he ducked and wove and parried. Both he and Anakin felt the anguish of their need to kill the other. But Anakin had turned to the dark side, and despair and pain strengthened the dark side. It gave him an advantage Obi-Wan could not match. Unless he let go of his own despair and the let the living Force move him -- the Force that bound all living things together, even Obi-Wan and this new, deadly, evil Anakin.

It was hard. It was perhaps, the hardest thing he had ever tried to do. For in letting go of his anguish, his despair, and his pain, he would have to let go of the Anakin who was his student, his brother, and his dearest friend. He'd have to admit that this time, he could not save the man who had saved his life so many times, whose life he had saved at least as often.

Obi-Wan couldn't do it. As the collection tower sank farther into the lava, he looked for a way to escape.

Source: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization

As you can see, in the junior novelization, Obi-Wan at this point is still unable to let go of his despair and his love for Anakin. In fact, in the junior novelization, Obi-Wan does not manage to let go at all until the climax of the fight:

And then, as Anakin came close enough to swing his lightsaber once more, the Jedi in Obi-Wan rose up and at last did the thing he hadn't thought he could do. He let go. Calm, centered, free -- for the moment -- of sorrow and despair, resting in the living Force as he had been trained to do, Obi-Wan Kenobi looked at his former friend and student, and did the unexpected. He made a soaring leap into the air and landed on the high bank of the lava river.

"It's over, Anakin," he said, looking down. "I have the high ground. Don't try it."

Source: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization

There is also a reference to this in The Ultimate Visual Guide:

As every step becomes more perilous and Vader's attacks more ferocious, Obi-Wan realizes that he still cares for Anakin, and that the only way he can defeat his opponent is to let go of his feelings for his former friend. When Obi-Wan releases this emotional attachment, the battle turns for the Jedi.

Source: The Ultimate Visual Guide

However, it is unclear whether The Ultimate Visual Guide supports the RotS novel or the RotS junior novel. I am led to believe, however, that it supports the junior novelization, simply because of the fact that it says the battle turns for Obi-Wan the moment he lets go, and the battle most clearly does not turn for Obi-Wan as early as he was said to let go in the RotS novel - but it pretty much does at the end of the fight, which is why I believe it supports the RotS junior novel more than anything.

The point is, however, still the same - Obi-Wan still let go, eventually, while Anakin didn't. Instead, Anakin's arrogance became the catalyst for his defeat:

It was Anakin's overconfidence, fueled by the dark side, which led to his defeat. A mistimed leap over Obi-Wan allowed him to swiftly cut Anakin, leaving him disabled on the shore of a lava river.

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

To clear a few other issues - Anakin and Obi-Wan "stalemated" at one point with a Force Push:

(3:48-3:54)

At this point, neither Anakin nor Obi-Wan had let go yet, but again, Anakin's emotional hindering was more severe than Kenobi's, which may offer an explanation. It may seem strange they are even, however, on the account of Anakin's feats being vastly better than Obi-Wan's. To be fair, we have seen Anakin strained before, while we haven't really seen Obi-Wan's maximum levels with TK, so there is a chance that it may be a bit more... comparable.

I also referenced Obi-Wan's usage of Electronic Manipulation to control the functions of Anakin's hand, earlier on. This was part of my reasoning that Kenobi was not as hindered by Anakin - but there are a few things to note.

1. Again, this happened in the RotS novel, which doesn't portray Obi-Wan to be as hindered as the RotS junior novel does.

2. In the RotS junior novel, Obi-Wan does not do this at all. The equivalent of that in the junior novel was him just bowling Anakin over and taking control of Anakin's lightsaber for a brief period of time before Anakin recovers it.

So the Electronic Manipulation may not be the best argument for Obi-Wan not being hindered - and he was hindered. Just not to the extent of Anakin, who was literally being manipulated by CIS throughout the whole fight.

I hope this matter has become clearer, and that I have cleared up some misconceptions regarding the fight. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. However, I'd like to not receive angry outbursts or anything of the likes - which I won't respond to. The topic is heated enough without people getting needlessly angry.

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Beingfatissupercool

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@shootingnova: If you don't give arguments to prove otherwise , but instead saying , it is just... her opinion .. , then that obviously means you ignore it and i assumed you considered it thrash .

How did i embarrass myself lmfao .

Stop pointing people on their fingers for things they didn't do because that is really annoying ...

And her saying , what could you possibly do says enough ...

Doesn't even matter if she pointed out at all the masters at once ?

Imo Anakin wasn't even good enough to join them, and he was only considered by Yoda to come along as for his statute of the chosen one ...

May i remind you again 99 % of the times a master rank is given for proving to be skilled and powerful enough and Anakin was a jedi knight .

And Anakin said he finally equalled his master once he became Vader, so doesn't that speak for it self Vader at his best was only equal to Kenobi ?

No he did NOT get hindered, as he said he felt his powers growing once he became Vader, and if he were limited, he wouldn't of felt himself stronger .

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ShootingNova

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Edited By ShootingNova

@beingfatissupercool: Just stop trolling my threads and running around trying to lowball Anakin.

No he did NOT get hindered, as he said he felt his powers growing once he became Vader, and if he were limited, he wouldn't of felt himself stronger .

Loading Video...

Hayden Christensen says right there that Anakin's emotions hindered him, which is why Obi-Wan defeated him.

Even George Lucas brought up Anakin's arrogance.

May i remind you again 99 % of the times a master rank is given for proving to be skilled and powerful enough and Anakin was a jedi knight .

Loading Video...

Stop making up information. Master rank is given when a Jedi displays excelling traits of a Jedi, not when they are extremely powerful or skilful. Because I can bring up Jedi Masters losing to Padawans twice off the top of my head alone (Exar Kun defeated Vodo-Siosk Baas during their training sessions, and Ashara Zavros outsparred one of her masters as well.

You claimed Anakin was equal to Obi-Wan, who was a master, so you contradicted himself.

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Beingfatissupercool

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@shootingnova:

O M G ...

Anakin was a sith then and NOT a jedi knight ( and he became stronger when he became a sith ), so how do i contradict myself again ?

What Hayden says is not G-Cannon, its not even cannon , it's not even legend .

And you did not respond to the fact it says in the novel Anakin felt his powers GROWING after becoming a sith .

If he were hindered how could he possibly felt his powers growing ???

And Lucas said Anakin was Arrogant so what ????

Since when does being arrogant mean that you are limited ??

EDIT : And i said 99% of the times .

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ShootingNova

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O M G ...

Anakin was a sith then, that's why he was equal to Kenobi so how do i contradict myself again ?

What Hayden says is not G-Cannon, its not even cannon , it's not even legend .

And you did not respond to the fact it says in the novel Anakin felt his powers GROWING after becoming a sith .

If he were hindered how could he possibly felt his powers growing ???

And Lucas said Anakin was Arrogant so what ????

Since when does being arrogant mean that you are limited ??

1. Then just quit commenting here if you feel exasperated. Nobody forces you to run around lowballing characters you obviously dislike.

2. What are you talking about? They were equal as per a number of sources including those I cited in the OP, which indicated that they were equals, but also with the additional factors of limitations.

3. His opinion was part of a video constituting G-Canon, and even if it was unofficial I think I can safely declare it more valid than yours.

4. His powers increased after he became a Sith, which was after Mace died. Obi-Wan's fight was different, because Anakin was then torn between Palpatine and Obi-Wan and not so resolute in his goal even though outwardly he attempted to appear so. So yes, he felt his powers growing and he became more brutal. Then when he fought Obi-Wan, the situation changed so that he became hindered.

5. So Obi-Wan beat him because Anakin was unable to control his emotions, and because Anakin's arrogance delivered the last leap which was his demise. We have plenty of sources stating Anakin was the better duelist, faster, stronger, and more powerful.

Loading Video...

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Beingfatissupercool

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You can't use sources that are not legend or cannon, otherwise i can make a vid at home and make cannon as well and use it on this forum .

There is probably 1 source saying Anakin was hindered , and it came from Nick who also isn't cannon / legend .

Don't you think facts that come out of the novel are to be considered more true than something that isn't legend nor cannon ?

If it says in the novel Anakin felt his powers growing, and he finally equalized his master now ,

And why would he be hindered against Kenobi who made Padme turn against him ?

Also Anakin was very aggressive towards Kenobi from the start , so not really hesitating .

And in The rise of the dark lord it says Vader enjoyed the fight , and was perfectly prepared to kill Kenobi .

The thing is there is as much proof if not more ( valid proof ) Anakin wasn't hindered, than the fact he was hindered .

Please say it's Kenobi—Lord Vader gets such a thrill from killing people who care for him -

''source: Revenge of The Sith novel ''.

The problem is you have no valid proof that Anakin was hindered .

Nothing that literally says Anakin was weaker against Kenobi because of his emotions .

So please stop saying Anakin was hindered , because you have not enough valid arguments to back this up .

And if you don't have enough arguments, then you have to accept the ''most likely to be true '' storyline ( which is Anakin fighting Kenobi full power both ) .

And stop lowballing Kenobi please .

And Anakin was not feeling insecure about going to the dark side .

He even liked being evil, as when he spotting with the seperatist leaders like this :

Gunray : but the emperor said he would make us in peace !

Anakin : Oh there was something wrong with the transmitter, he actually said PIECES .

EDIT : here's proof Nick Gillards words ( Kenobi being an 8 while Anakin has gone past Kenobi he's a 9 ) get contradicted by higher ranked cannon :

''He could feel his power growing, indeed. He had the measure of his "Master''

Source :Revenge of The Sith novel

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Jacthripper

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@shootingnova: Thanks for this, is it ok if I reference this for the future?

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ShootingNova

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@jacthripper: Yes, he would.

Also, LOL @ me lowballing Obi-Wan, my one-time favorite Jedi.

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BloodBlunts

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obi wan won because he truly believed in the light so he could defeat the darkness. he was pretty ill yo beating grevious and new vader. dooku made him look like a fool but everyone needs their low end feats lol

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LmDarthMaul999

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@ShootingNova why do you think anakin is more powerfull as dooku? (just a question)

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Mije_101

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No no no, you can see from the one scene in the movie where they force push each other that Anakin is only equal to Obi Wan in terms of force power. Emokin lost to Obi Wan, who lost to Dooku and Great Sith Lord Darth Maul.

Emokin dies.

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TheVivas

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Sirfizwhiz

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Edited By Sirfizwhiz

"Hayden in this film has moved up to a level nine. He's gone past Obi."

" On this film, Obi is a eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Yoda is a nine. They'er up with Sidious." The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith

Awesome.

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Sirfizwhiz

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@ShootingNova why do you think anakin is more powerfull as dooku? (just a question)

"Hayden in this film has moved up to a level nine. He's gone past Obi."

"On this film, Obi is a eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Yoda is a nine. They'er up with Sidious." The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith

Awesome.

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LmDarthMaul999

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@sirfizwhiz:

1 I meant force power

2 according to that quote dooku is below obi-wan because he is not in the comparison

3 since when is the 'opinion' of Nick Gillard more important then feats because the idea of anakin being in the same tier as sidious or yoda is just ridicoulus (skill and force power)

So again my question stands, why should anakin even be in the same tier in force power as dooku?

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DarthManhunter

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I like the write up, nicely done Nova.

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Sirfizwhiz

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Edited By Sirfizwhiz

@sirfizwhiz:

1 I meant force power

2 according to that quote dooku is below obi-wan because he is not in the comparison

3 since when is the 'opinion' of Nick Gillard more important then feats because the idea of anakin being in the same tier as sidious or yoda is just ridicoulus (skill and force power)

So again my question stands, why should anakin even be in the same tier in force power as dooku?

Ever heard of a Separatist Dreadnought?

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Dooku compares how in force?

And lets not forget this.

No Caption Provided

Dooku could not keep up speed wise or strength wise even when amping himself with Force.

So why do you think Dooku has better force strength?

No Caption Provided

Plus all this for accolades. Being the Chosen One, highest Midoclorian count in a life form, born from the force, stated by Palpatine as a stronger apprentice, ect....

Anakin is simply higher tier than Dooku by the end of the Clone Wars.

Loading Video...

Plus this kinda happen.

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ShootingNova

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Edited By ShootingNova

Anakin is outright listed as a more powerful Force-sensitive than Tyranus.

I like the write up, nicely done Nova.

Thanks. I'm going to remake this blog, though, to account for changes in opinion and so on.

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Noone301994

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Edited By Noone301994

All I know is:

No Caption Provided

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LmDarthMaul999

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Edited By LmDarthMaul999

@shootingnova: listed? Sidious says it yes more potential but at that point more powerfull doubt it.

@sirfizwhiz

1 how big is a dreadnaught? any size, weight?

2 he did seem to require almost max effort to pull that off

3 yes as said was anakin amped by his rage at that point if I am not mistaken and even then it could explained by the fact that anakin was physically overwelming dooku (djem so <-> makashi)

4 anakin has more potential which the accolades confirm but no feats to back it up that AT THAT TIME he was more powerfull then dooku (besides the palpatine quote but even then it is questionable)

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ShootingNova

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@lmdarthmaul999: Sourcebooks have told us that, and feats have told us that.

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LmDarthMaul999

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@shootingnova feat? haha I laughed a bit,

anakin's best feat is moving a dreadnaught of unknown size with maximum effort (or at least a lot of effort) so no feats don't tell us that

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ShootingNova

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@lmdarthmaul999: I don't care how much you laugh. Anakin is more powerful than Tyranus by showings, with the exception of various lowballs in TCW.

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MasterKungFu

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anakin should've won

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Thekillerklok

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for the most of my life I considered myself a "star wars fan"
I have no idea whats going here. lol

so uh... how about the Rihkxyrk that was a pretty cool ship...

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silentbat

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I thought I commented on this already ... but looks like I didn't. So glad you put this to writing. It takes too long to explain to folks who take the fight out of context.

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silentbat

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@shootingnova You have anymore of these coming up? It's crazy how often I refer people to this thread.

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NinjaWarrior268

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ShootingNova

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@ninjawarrior268: Thanks.

You have anymore of these coming up? It's crazy how often I refer people to this thread.

Not sure. Do you have any particular requests?

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silentbat

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Edited By silentbat

@shootingnova: Nothing specific, I was just looking around generally.

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Silver2467

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Late in the game, but very good write-up, Nova. If I were to add anything to your point, it would be that Anakin has a history of uncontrolled emotion hindering his powers. This has been demonstrated in several other stories such as the Republic series and Labyrinth of Evil. So Anakin's CIS impeding his powers is a very strong point on your part. That in conjunction with their familiarity with each other's fighting forms, and I agree with you completely about why this duel ended the way it did.

Pertaining to the RotS novel and the junior novelization, I would be more inclined to accept the RotS novelization as the more valid source because of Lucas' involvement in it (his personal editing). But that's just me. This does not mean the junior novel is meaningless or anything.

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ShootingNova

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Edited By ShootingNova

@silver2467: True.

I believe the junior novelization offers insights into the fight that the main novel doesn't, so I do believe it's of considerable value in determining the underlying elements of this fight myself.

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Silver2467

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ShootingNova

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Edited By ShootingNova

@silver2467: If anything, the other reason would be that outside sources seem to agree more with the junior novel's portrayal of the fight as opposed to the novel.

Also, on the point of Anakin's obstructions, there's a source saying he failed to sense Obi-Wan hiding inside the ship on Mustafar. Now, we know Master-Apprentices develop Force Bonds which make sensing one another very easy, and a duo with a connection comparable to Anakin/Obi-Wan would obviously be able to sense one another (especially since they've both demonstrated incredible levels of Sense in the past), so the fact that Anakin couldn't even sense a nearby Obi-Wan is pretty much a lynchpin in securing the argument that he was emotionally hindered.

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damasterjj

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Edited By damasterjj

on their Prime Obi-wan beat Anikan on revenge of the Sith no point of further discussion. And yes Darth vader killed old Obi-won but thats because he let him.

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TraGiC_JoHNSoN

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I'm surprised at all the people still defending Obi-Wan.

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STELIOS23

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Really late here, but good write up m8 u got a another follower.

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@shootingnova: Asides from Obi-Wan's familiarity with Anakin's fighting style, I think the main reason he lasted so long was because of his mastery of Soresu which Mace Windu regarded as "the master". But that only prolonged the duel, delaying the inevitable for Obi-Wan because Soresu is best used against blaster fire, not in a Lightsaber duel. While it's defences are near perfect, it won't last forever and it will eventually be penetrated, especially by those who have better stamina.

"A… defensive technique. But effective. Use it if you do not wish to be hit, or if you are facing many opponents with blasters. With a Lightsaber blade and enough skill in deflection, it is an excellent offense against blasters, but in other situations, it merely delays the inevitable." - Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords.

This was briefly touched upon in the Revenge of the Sith Junior Novel because at the end of the duel, Anakin was gaining the advantage which was something Obi-Wan couldn't match.

"Still, the fight continued, even as the collection tower sank slowly into the lava. And still, neither man could gain an advantage. But that's not really true, Obi-Wan thought as he ducked and wove and parried. Both he and Anakin felt the anguish of their need to kill the other. But Anakin had turned to the Dark Side, and despair and pain strengthened the Dark Side. It gave him an advantage Obi-Wan could not match." - Revenge of the Sith Junior Novel.

Maybe you could add Kreia's statement about Soresu only delaying the inevitable?

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DivineDebater

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@yousufkhan1212: That post was made years ago, lol. The user might not even be active.

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Edited By Anonymous42

I think that in terms of Dueling, Anakin is NOT better or more skilled than Obi-Wan, rather, they are exactly equal. Anakin could be more aggressive, which may make him more proactive in combat, but that doesn't mean he is more skilled.

In terms of the Force, Anakin has somewhat more raw power, and Obi-Wan has somewhat more refinement/skill. Ultimately, these two balance out, as seen in their force push tug of war, Anakin has more power but Kenobi can use the power he has with greater skill, thus balancing Anakin's push.

In Dueling: Let's start with Obi-Wan. He was the absolute reigning master of the form called "Soresu" which is a very defensive style, and because of Obi-Wan's skill with this form, he can make a near-impenetrable defense. If Kenobi is a master duelist, his mastery lies in his skill with Soresu and how damn hard to take out he is because of this.

Kenobi is also a high level master of another form called Form IV (or "Ataru"). He learned Ataru for his entire time as a padawan of Qui-Gon Jinn, and probably continued to study it afterwards. His Ataru alone (as a padawan) allowed him to survive with Maul, and even compete on a level with him after his master died. His Ataru skill is probably almost at the level of that of his master Jinn. Effectively that makes him Qui-Gon's equivalent WITHOUT his Soresu. This allows him an excellent offense in addition to his Soresu defense.

Kenobi also was highly proficient with form I Shii-Cho, which was a basic offensive form but useful against multiple enemies. He was an expert with Form V Shien, which allowed for precise blast deflection and dueling, and Form VI Niman, which helped him use the force in combat and mix and match forms to his own preference.

Kenobi was also a great master of dual-blade combat, able to defeat both Maul brothers. Maul killed Qui-Gon so he is superior to Qui-Gon, and Savage killed Gallia so he is superior to Gallia (who held off Grievous btw). Thus Kenobi defeated the equivalent of both Qui-Gon Jinn and Adi Gallia and then some.

So we have someone who is very proficient in all forms of combat except two, Makashi and Juyo, and especially masterful in his primary form, Soresu.

His feats include defending against the max speed of Grievous, successfully defending against Dooku, and defeating Maul and Oppress. Against Grievous, I noticed that in TCW most Jedi were taking the offensive against Grievous, forcing Grievous to defend and thus keeping Grievous from unleashing his full attack speed on them. In addition, masters like Eeth Koth and Adi Gallia, who did defend against Grievous, only for a very short time against a Grievous who didn't look like he was giving it his all, thinking he could defeat them without giving it his all. Thus Kenobi's feat against Grievous is nearly unparallelled. Dooku outduelled Kenobi in Ep. II but was unable to do it in III because Kenobi's defense stopped Dooku's attacks, thus forcing Dooku to use his force powers which are considerable. Kenobi's feat against Maul and Oppress is described earlier.

Now for Anakin.

Anakin was the absolute master of both aspects of Form V - Shien and Djem So, but especially Djem So. His mastery was such that even as a padawan, he lasted for some time against Dooku and successfully drove Dooku back for a time. As a Knight, Anakin would prove his worth against Dooku several times, contending with him every single time, or sometimes defeating him outright. However it should be noted that Dooku's style was specifically weak against Djem So, so maybe Anakin killed Dooku because of the way their forms stacked up. However, Anakin's mastery cannot be understated. In addition, He DEFEATED VENTRESS AS A PADAWAN!

Anakin was also a master of Jar'Kai dual-blade fencing, driving back Dooku (as a padawan) and defeating Barriss Offee with this skill. He also had some skill with Ataru but not very much.

His feats include defeating Ventress as a padawan (keep in mind Ventress defeated Kit Fisto), Defeating Dooku twice, defeating Barriss Offee, and slaughtering all the jedi in the Jedi Temple including defeating Cin Drallig.

Ultimately I'd say their duelling abilities are EXACTLY on par. They were both absolute masters of their respective styles, and while Kenobi knows more forms, Anakin's form V is a very versatile forms, and he effectively mastered two different forms in Shien and Djem So. Shien is made for blasters and Djem So for lightsaber duelling, and both are based on an aggressive, heavy-handed offense backed by a strong defense. They both had a knowledge of Form VI Niman. Thus both Kenobi and Skywalker had both defense and offense, Kenobi with a Soresu Defense and an Ataru/Shii-Cho/Shien offense, and Anakin with Shien, Djem So, and Niman that served as both offense and defense. Overall, however, Kenobi leaned more towards defense while Anakin leaned more towards offense, but when analyzing their abilities like I did, it becomes clear there is no real edge to either.

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ShootingNova

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Edited By ShootingNova

@anonymous42: No, Anakin's factually better than Obi-Wan as a duelist:

"Hayden in this film has gone up to a level nine. He's gone past Obi."

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PAOPveZtoE

'Obi-Wan taught Anakin and Anakin has gone past him,' he notes.

Source: The Making of Revenge of the Sith

"Obi knows that Anakin is better than him, but because he taught him, he knows emotionally how he’s going to behave."

Source: http://www.theforce.net/episode3/story/nick_gillard_talks_rots_game_92147.asp

"Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III, but it’s a huge jump from one level to another. It’s not just about a style of fighting—it’s mental as well. Anakin has gone up probably four levels from Episode II to Episode III. So he’s gone beyond Obi-Wan, but he hasn’t gone beyond him mentally."

Source: http://www.theforce.net/episode3/story/nick_gillard_talks_rots_game_92147.asp

"The level is not necessarily an indication of the performer's talent, but it takes a truly gifted and physically skilled actor to play a powerful Jedi combatant. 'Hayden Christensen is one of the best there is,' says Gillard. 'I've seen hundreds of sword fighters, people who do it for a living, and he leaves them all in his wake. His style has changed a bit since Episode II, when he was only a level seven. On this he's a level nine.' For the curious, Gillard does not reveal any Jedi who has achieved level ten. The highest is nine, occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference."

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20051202222123/http://starwars.com/episode-iii/bts/production/beacon126.html

"When I started, I figured that a youngling is a level one. And somebody like Kit Fisto - seven. I did take it to eight and nine, but not many people know that. Eight and nine is cheat. So Obi-Wan is eight. Yoda is nine. Mace is eight, bordering on nine. Anakin is nine."

Source: https://youtu.be/Z2-iZNQrFBA?t=908

In the Jedi levels of lightsaber fighting, Obi-Wan is an eight, while Anakin, Yoda and Darth Sidious are nines.

Source: http://www.theforce.net/episode3/jtf/palpatine.asp
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kbroskywalker

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@shootingnova: @anonymous42:

And in case anyone wants to say FEATS>EVERYTHING!

All thats needed is this exercept from the novel when Both Kenobi and Anakin were fully hindered and fighting on even footing prior to Kenobi focusing himself:

"As Anakin’s lightsaber hummed toward him, a calm certainty filled Obi-Wan. Anakin was going to kill him. Oh, he’d make Anakin work for it. He’d fight with everything he had. But he was positive, with the sureness that came from any Force-driven insight, that he would die at Anakin’s hands."

-Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization

And prior to focusing himself Anakin was stomping him physically:

His hands seized Obi-Wan's wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide.

"I am so sick of your lectures!" Dark power bore down with his grip. Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks. Oh, he thought. Oh, this is bad.

.....

With Anakin's grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking

-ROTS

Also:

"When I started, I figured that a youngling is a level one. And somebody like Kit Fisto - seven. I did take it to eight and nine, but not many people know that. Eight and nine is cheat. So Obi-Wan is eight. Yoda is nine. Mace is eight, bordering on nine. Anakin is nine."

Source: https://youtu.be/Z2-iZNQrFBA?t=908

That also puts anakin as>windu("bordering nine vs "Nine") skill wise, so that would mean anakin is the second best duelist in the order and is> than someone who is henerally stated to be = dooku, should put that in your thread

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kbroskywalker

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Edited By kbroskywalker

@shootingnova:

So anakin is the #3 of the era in terms of both saber skill/force power after yoda/sidious?

And if anakin is already at this point the #3 power wise of the era, vader being canonically more powerful than anakin at this point should put him very near the top in terms of power for sw force users

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ShootingNova

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@kbroskywalker: Vader's canonically weaker than Anakin, per the Star Wars website.

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kbroskywalker

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Edited By kbroskywalker

@shootingnova: link?

Because new canon has vader stating he's the most powerful he's ever been in lords of the sith and that his injuries "strengthened his connection to the force". Lords of the Sith is pre rebels which per feloni is Vader's prime

plus the anh/esb/rotj+rise of darth vader said things similar IIRC

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ShootingNova

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kbroskywalker

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Edited By kbroskywalker

@shootingnova: is it talking about raw power? or combatively applicable power?

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ShootingNova

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@kbroskywalker: That's clearly referring to actualized power, since it says "weaker than before".