Battle Misconceptions - Obi-Wan vs Anakin

(I am not sure where this should go. It is not a battle, but it relates to battles, so I will put it in the battles forum for now, but if it doesn't belong here, would one of the mods kindly move it to wherever it is appropriate?)

Recently, I have been involved in a few discussions regarding this topic; users have misconceived this battle in the past, and users will be bound to misconceive the battle in the future. Therefore, I decided to make a blog addressing this, as I believe it is quite honestly as serious a misconception as Mace Windu vs Palpatine. In fact, I would go so far as to say that Silver2467 made a small misconception regarding this fight as well - when he suggested that Obi-Wan was not being hindered/suffering from CIS. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, which most of you probably won't, just read on (or just stop reading, LOL). And be prepared for humungous slabs of text.

First and foremost - to address the combatants overall feats and generic displays.

Strength - Anakin, easily. Obi-Wan has no feats that approach hitting hard another blade hard enough to shatter stone beneath oneself or tearing apart spider droids.

Speed - Anakin has been portrayed as faster than Obi-Wan, and has better feats, such as moving fast enough to appear in multiple places at once and filling Dooku's entire line of vision with the light of his blade.

Dueling - In short, I should just say that Anakin is listed by Nick Gillard to be a better duelist than Obi-Wan (in Nick Gillard's terms, Anakin was a tier 9 while Obi-Wan was a tier 8).

Power - Anakin is vastly more powerful. In fact, Anakin is more powerful than Dooku, somebody who has humiliated Obi-Wan with the Force before. And Obi-Wan hasn't really done anything to approach hurling boulders the size of huts, manipulating Conqueror-class dreadnaughts, unleashing Force Screams that have shattered large dome facilities, etc.

So in short, Anakin is slightly faster, is easily stronger, is slightly more skilled, and is much more powerful.

So, why did he fail to win decisively? Why was Obi-Wan capable of not only holding his own but even defeating Anakin? This is because of a number of circumstances.

First - Obi-Wan and Anakin had sparred with each other and fought alongside each other so many times that they knew every single nook and cranny of each other's styles; they had memorized each other's favorite moves and techniques and their counters. The RotS novel describes them as "knowing each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers - they were the complementary halves of a warrior" and the RotS junior novelization states that they had known each other's favorite moves and "hardly had to think to counter them", as well as that "it felt like another practice session, except for the exploding equipment". This is also referenced by sources such as Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force, which claimed they were fighting evenly until Anakin's arrogance led to his defeat.

Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

His lightsaber came up in an instinctive parry. They had sparred together so often that they knew each other's favorite moves. Obi-Wan hardly had to think to counter Anakin's attack. Lightsabers humming, they battled their way down the hall and into the control center. It felt.... familiar, like another practice session, except for the exploding equipment.

Source: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization

Years of fighting side-by-side left these warriors evenly matched, and their exhausting duel crossed the fiery landscape of a Mustafar refinery.

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

This is one of the reasons that they were able to fight so closely - Obi-Wan's Soresu is designed to last as long as possible, but Anakin's advantages should have tipped the fight in his favor. However, such minor skill and speed disparities were probably negated on the behalf of having encyclopedic knowledge of each other's fighting styles. Technically, their knowledge of each other's fighting techniques were only equal, but Anakin was also hindered (and I'll get to that later), while a Soresu adept would benefit more from such knowledge than a Djem So master, especially given how straightforward Djem So is in the first place.

Next - Anakin was hindered. He was suffering CIS throughout the entire battle - his lack of self-control allowed his emotions to get in his way and he was thus described in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader as "vulnerable and between worlds":

Anakin had still been between worlds then, and vulnerable.

Source: Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

Obi-Wan himself was also hindered in the fight, but as you may expect, he had a much greater deal of self-control and suffered CIS to a lesser degree.

We know Obi-Wan was not hindered as much as Anakin in the fight because of Sidious's mind probings, in which he said Obi-Wan was resolute and firm in his commitment to the fight, even though he didn't really want to kill Anakin:

"Obi-Wan triumphed because he went to Mustafar with a single intention in mind: to kill Darth Vader."

Source: Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

In fact, he was still able to apply Electronic Manipulation, something that requires concentration and effort:

Obi-Wan had only one trick left, one that wouldn't work twice-But it was a very good trick.

It had, after all, worked rather splendidly on Grievous...

He twitched one finger, reaching through the Force to reverse the polarity of the electrodrivers in Anakin's mechanical hand.

Durasteel fingers sprang open, and a lightsaber tumbled free.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

However, to be fair, the RotS novel does not portray him the same light as the RotS junior novel or other sources - in the RotS novel, he lets go of Anakin and lets go of his despair much earlier in the fight:

With Anakin's grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking, forcing both their lightsabers down in a slow but unstoppable arc, Obi Wan let go. Of everything. His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. And their lightsabers.

This was not Sith against Jedi. This was not light against dark or good against evil; it had nothing to do with duty or philosophy, religion or morals.

It was Anakin against Obi-Wan.

Personally.

Just the two of them, and the damage they had done to each other.

Obi-Wan backflipped from the conduit to a coupling nexus of the main collection plant; when Anakin flew in pursuit, Obi-Wan leapt again. They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.

The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all... Obi-Wan still loved him.Yoda had said it, flat-out: Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again and again; all the while this attachment he denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best friend walked.

Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment...

He let it go.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Conversely, the equivalent of that scene in the junior novel is shown like this:

Still, the fight continued, even as the collection tower sank slowly into the lava. And still, neither man could gain an advantage.

But that's not really true, Obi-Wan thought as he ducked and wove and parried. Both he and Anakin felt the anguish of their need to kill the other. But Anakin had turned to the dark side, and despair and pain strengthened the dark side. It gave him an advantage Obi-Wan could not match. Unless he let go of his own despair and the let the living Force move him -- the Force that bound all living things together, even Obi-Wan and this new, deadly, evil Anakin.

It was hard. It was perhaps, the hardest thing he had ever tried to do. For in letting go of his anguish, his despair, and his pain, he would have to let go of the Anakin who was his student, his brother, and his dearest friend. He'd have to admit that this time, he could not save the man who had saved his life so many times, whose life he had saved at least as often.

Obi-Wan couldn't do it. As the collection tower sank farther into the lava, he looked for a way to escape.

Source: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization

As you can see, in the junior novelization, Obi-Wan at this point is still unable to let go of his despair and his love for Anakin. In fact, in the junior novelization, Obi-Wan does not manage to let go at all until the climax of the fight:

And then, as Anakin came close enough to swing his lightsaber once more, the Jedi in Obi-Wan rose up and at last did the thing he hadn't thought he could do. He let go. Calm, centered, free -- for the moment -- of sorrow and despair, resting in the living Force as he had been trained to do, Obi-Wan Kenobi looked at his former friend and student, and did the unexpected. He made a soaring leap into the air and landed on the high bank of the lava river.

"It's over, Anakin," he said, looking down. "I have the high ground. Don't try it."

Source: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization

There is also a reference to this in The Ultimate Visual Guide:

As every step becomes more perilous and Vader's attacks more ferocious, Obi-Wan realizes that he still cares for Anakin, and that the only way he can defeat his opponent is to let go of his feelings for his former friend. When Obi-Wan releases this emotional attachment, the battle turns for the Jedi.

Source: The Ultimate Visual Guide

However, it is unclear whether The Ultimate Visual Guide supports the RotS novel or the RotS junior novel. I am led to believe, however, that it supports the junior novelization, simply because of the fact that it says the battle turns for Obi-Wan the moment he lets go, and the battle most clearly does not turn for Obi-Wan as early as he was said to let go in the RotS novel - but it pretty much does at the end of the fight, which is why I believe it supports the RotS junior novel more than anything.

The point is, however, still the same - Obi-Wan still let go, eventually, while Anakin didn't. Instead, Anakin's arrogance became the catalyst for his defeat:

It was Anakin's overconfidence, fueled by the dark side, which led to his defeat. A mistimed leap over Obi-Wan allowed him to swiftly cut Anakin, leaving him disabled on the shore of a lava river.

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

To clear a few other issues - Anakin and Obi-Wan "stalemated" at one point with a Force Push:

(3:48-3:54)

At this point, neither Anakin nor Obi-Wan had let go yet, but again, Anakin's emotional hindering was more severe than Kenobi's, which may offer an explanation. It may seem strange they are even, however, on the account of Anakin's feats being vastly better than Obi-Wan's. To be fair, we have seen Anakin strained before, while we haven't really seen Obi-Wan's maximum levels with TK, so there is a chance that it may be a bit more... comparable.

I also referenced Obi-Wan's usage of Electronic Manipulation to control the functions of Anakin's hand, earlier on. This was part of my reasoning that Kenobi was not as hindered by Anakin - but there are a few things to note.

1. Again, this happened in the RotS novel, which doesn't portray Obi-Wan to be as hindered as the RotS junior novel does.

2. In the RotS junior novel, Obi-Wan does not do this at all. The equivalent of that in the junior novel was him just bowling Anakin over and taking control of Anakin's lightsaber for a brief period of time before Anakin recovers it.

So the Electronic Manipulation may not be the best argument for Obi-Wan not being hindered - and he was hindered. Just not to the extent of Anakin, who was literally being manipulated by CIS throughout the whole fight.

I hope this matter has become clearer, and that I have cleared up some misconceptions regarding the fight. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. However, I'd like to not receive angry outbursts or anything of the likes - which I won't respond to. The topic is heated enough without people getting needlessly angry.

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Pharoh_Atem

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Nice write up, though I have a question: wouldn't the novel overule the junior novel, since they both contradict each other?

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ShootingNova

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Edited By ShootingNova

Nice write up, though I have a question: wouldn't the novel overule the junior novel, since they both contradict each other?

Why would this be the case? Both are of the same tier of canon, made more so by the fact that Disney retconned the entire system so there is only canon and non-canon.

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Pharoh_Atem

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Edited By Pharoh_Atem

@shootingnova:

Well, they can't both be right since they contradict each other.

Also, even if Disney did change the canon class, wouldn't the events in the junior novel already be retconned/overuled out even before Disney owned Star Wars? Why would it suddenly become canon again if they did?

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ShootingNova

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@dccomicsrule2011: Why would it have been retconned out?

And as I said, if anything, I'm going by the junior novel because it's supported by The Ultimate Visual Guide, making it two sources vs 1. Majority rules.... LOL.

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ssj3gohan007

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Edited By ssj3gohan007

Yeah the equality of the force pushes were really confusing. As the Chosen One and Son of the force he should have been on a completely different level than any mortal force-user. I get that he wasn't able to fight nearly at his best. But unlike the swordsmanship, simply knowing your opponent does not mean you can mimic their power. No matter how strong in the force Obi-Wan was, he would still be a good deal below Count Dooku. Perhaps Obi-Wan specialized in force pushes more and had more control, skill, and experience over his Push then Anakin did. Which somehow compensated for Anakin's raw power. Then there's also the fact that he wasn't even close to reaching his full potential at 22. So he wasn't completely beyond all mortal force users just yet.

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neviander

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In my readings here on comicvine I read something along the lines of, "if Obi-Wan has either the high ground, or the low ground, he's invincible, but if he's on even ground he falters." I think that statement makes sense. He owned Darth Maul with the low ground, he owned General Grievous with the low ground, he owned Vader with the high ground, but he got his ass owned by Dooku, TWICE, on the even ground. These are certainly not scientific statements, but as sci-fi lore goes, it makes sense. So, the fact that Obi-Wan already had the advantage of knowing Vader's fighting style (or Anakin's fighting style, depending on how how you look at it.), and the fact that he even warned Vader that he had the high ground, did not bode well for the soon to be mostly dismembered Vader. Obi-Wan seemed to carry some serious weight with the force, be it luck, or some other type of destiny, Obi-Wan was powerful when it mattered, luck, or no.

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Beingfatissupercool

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Kenobi is atleast equal with Anakin -- >

First of all Kenobi is a master, Anakin a jedi knight .

Masters are generally more skilled and have more knowledge in the force then Jedi knights.

Second of all Kenobi owned Anakin twice

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2:44

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11:23

Anakin struggles against a Padawan who is a bit older then the other padawans but is still a padawan but Anakin does eventually overpower her.

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2:22

Anakin and Kenobi have trouble against Savage

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Then this same Savage with an even stronger night brother Darth Maul fight against Kenobi where Kenobi holds his own , even defeats Savage .

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Also it is mentioned that Kenobi and Anakin were equally match on the official Disney Starwars.com website .

''Yoda assigned Obi-Wan to deal with Anakin, who had left Coruscant for the lava planet Mustafar. Both powerful and evenly matched, the two former friends dueled to a stalemate until Anakin attempted to leap over his old Master'',

It sais nowhere on the entire site that Anakin was somehow more hindered then Anakin, nor is there legend / canon resource to be sure about this . ( also not on Anakin's biography in the official Starwars databank or on his view of point on the Mustafar fight in the official databank)

So maybe Anakin showed more feats about having more strength / speed, but that's no proof Kenobi can't do that eather , he just never had to do such things to complete his missions .

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ShootingNova

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Edited By ShootingNova

@beingfatissupercool:

Considering the vast ignorance and inconsistency that TCW has in relations to the EU, and that this was a blog designed for EU discussions, I think we can discount TCW. Anakin is more often than not underplayed in that series. He was kicked several meters by a senator once.

Masters are generally more skilled and have more knowledge in the force then Jedi knights.

Generally, not always, because Master is a title, not a rank of power. That, and I think anybody who picked up any single EU source relating to Anakin, or perhaps even from watching the films alone, would understand that Anakin does not fit within the general, ordinary class of Jedi Knights. So this is meaningless.

Anakin struggles against a Padawan who is a bit older then the other padawans but is still a padawan but Anakin does eventually overpower her.

Barriss was a Jedi Knight, who finished her apprenticeship during the beginning of the Clone Wars, unless TCW retconned that. That, and she has a number of decent showings.

Also it is mentioned that Kenobi and Anakin were equally match on the official Disney Starwars.com website .

''Yoda assigned Obi-Wan to deal with Anakin, who had left Coruscant for the lava planet Mustafar. Both powerful and evenly matched, the two former friends dueled to a stalemate until Anakin attempted to leap over his old Master'',

And so do the sources that I quoted. None of this contradicts what I said.

It sais nowhere on the entire site that Anakin was somehow more hindered then Anakin, nor is there legend / canon resource to be sure about this . ( also not on Anakin's biography in the official Starwars databank or on his view of point on the Mustafar fight in the official databank)

Yes, there is a legend source for this, which I quoted in the OP if you had bothered to read it.

So maybe Anakin showed more feats about having more strength / speed, but that's no proof Kenobi can't do that eather , he just never had to do such things to complete his missions .

lol

So Obi-Wan could theoretically show better feats than Anakin or Yoda just because it was never proved otherwise? Don't be ridiculous. Nobody has to prove a negative point. What Obi-Wan could do or not is irrelevant (in the EU, it is directly indicated Anakin is superior) and Anakin just has better showings. Why people feel the need to circumvent that fact is beyond me, and unless you can prove that Obi-Wan can replicate the best of Anakin's showings, then yes, Anakin is superior.

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Shawnbaby

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@shootingnova: Problem being is that the Clone Wars is 100% cannon. You can't discount it simply because you don't like how he is portrayed.

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ShootingNova

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Edited By ShootingNova

@shawnbaby: Of course it's canon, and of course I can't discount it because I feel like it. I discount specific instances that are better left alone because they contradict years of expository writing on the EU's part. The EU is another universe, now, but this blog was intended for that universe, so yes, I follow that line, moreso than a source which is inconsistent (at times, inconsistent with itself) and neglects other sources. TCW's inconsistencies rival that of the Legacy era, the Force unleashed, and the Old Republic multimedia project combined. I have every right to discount it when I am writing for a timeline which is now a separate canon and which TCW endlessly contradicts. And TCW's portrayals of Anakin are inconsistent. He is portrayed as a rival for Dooku in every encounter that they have, yet he is also portrayed as a rival with Ventress in most encounters they have, and Dooku has beaten Ventress with minimal difficulty before. It is clear that the Count is on another tier. And when we are confronted with these two inconsistencies, what would we do without discounting the inconsistent instance?

You seem to have an insouciance regarding the topic, which means you really shouldn't be making these posts here.

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Wut

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@shootingnova: She was still a Jedi Knight. That was never retconned. She is a padawan for most of it but does become a knight before her fight with Anakin. (She would have to be considering what she did).

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ShootingNova

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@wut: Alright. Then calling her a padawan would be incorrect.

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Edited By Shawnbaby

@shootingnova said:

@shawnbaby: Of course it's canon, and of course I can't discount it because I feel like it. I discount specific instances that are better left alone because they contradict years of expository writing on the EU's part. The EU is another universe, now, but this blog was intended for that universe, so yes, I follow that line, moreso than a source which is inconsistent (at times, inconsistent with itself) and neglects other sources. TCW's inconsistencies rival that of the Legacy era, the Force unleashed, and the Old Republic multimedia project combined. I have every right to discount it when I am writing for a timeline which is now a separate canon and which TCW endlessly contradicts. And TCW's portrayals of Anakin are inconsistent. He is portrayed as a rival for Dooku in every encounter that they have, yet he is also portrayed as a rival with Ventress in most encounters they have, and Dooku has beaten Ventress with minimal difficulty before. It is clear that the Count is on another tier. And when we are confronted with these two inconsistencies, what would we do without discounting the inconsistent instance?

You seem to have an insouciance regarding the EU, which, if I recall correctly, you have been attempting to undermine in several threads now.

If I had, as you say, "an insousciance" about the EU...why would I try to undermine it?

If I were insousciant...I wouldn't care enough about it one way or the other.

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ShootingNova

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Edited By ShootingNova

@shawnbaby: Insouciance was a bad word to use. I just had the belief that you cared little for it, so I used that word. Maybe a better word would simply be dislike, which I feel fits your attitude well enough. Whatever the word I choose to use, you seem to be bent on undermining the EU. That's all that needs to be said.

I assume that your singular focus on my mistake with wording is a concession in other areas.

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Shawnbaby

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@shawnbaby: Insouciance was a bad word to use. I just had the vibe that you cared little for it, so I used that word. Maybe a better word would simply be dislike, which I feel fits it fairly your attitude enough.

Vocabulary Misconceptions - Insousciance

Definition:

  • showing a casual lack of concern; indifferent.

When you would use it: When trying to convey that someone is casually indifferent to The Star Wars Extended Universe.

When you would not use it: When trying to suggest that someone actively dislikes The Star Wars Extended Universe and tries to undermine it whenever possible.

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ShootingNova

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Edited By ShootingNova

@shawnbaby: I realize that, which is why I changed my post.

That being said, you are now making me doubt whether you even care about the EU to begin with. So now I have no idea whether to use "insouciant" and "dislike" in this context.

Now could we stop going off-topic? You can lecture me about dictionary definitions and the my mistaken usage of words in a PM.

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Shawnbaby

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@shawnbaby: I realize that, which is why I changed my post.

That being said, you are now making me doubt whether you even care about the EU to begin with. So now I have no idea whether to use "insouciant" and "dislike" in this context.

Now could we stop going off-topic? You can lecture me about dictionary definitions and the my mistaken usage of words in a PM.

As regards the EU, I have no hate for it...nor am I entirely indifferent. I have read some material I have enjoyed and some I have not. I did not care for the old Canon system regarding the EU but that is no longer a problem. Officially speaking, there really no longer is an expanded universe for me to dislike or be indifferent towards. Now there is only one level of canon to be concerned with. Currently, the only things considered canon are the six movies and TCW. Everything else has either been discarded entirely (as far as actual canon is concerned) or exists in a state of limbo for now. So, basically, you are trying to disregard how Anakin is portrayed in canon material in favour for how he is portrayed in non-canon material.

As regards your uncertainty about whether I am insouciant about this topic I will give you a little tip. If I were insouciant about it...I wouldn't have any reason to be in this thread at all. The very fact that I took the time to debate with you is evidence I am not indifferent towards the subject. I am also not insouciant towards people that recklessly throw around ten dollar words just to make themselves feel smarter.

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SpartanKobe

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@beingfatissupercool:


Anakin struggles against a Padawan who is a bit older then the other padawans but is still a padawan but Anakin does eventually overpower her.

Barriss was a Jedi Knight, who finished her apprenticeship during the beginning of the Clone Wars, unless TCW retconned that. That, and she has a number of decent showings.

Anakin was holding back. He didn't want to kill her because he wanted her to make the confession about the Temple bombing.

That and, he overwhelmed her quite easily with TK/Force Grip whatever you want to call that at the end of the fight. IMO I think it's clear he could've stopped that fight anytime he wanted.

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ShootingNova

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Edited By ShootingNova

@shawnbaby: Not really. All the film novelizations are still canon, but any material not directly related to the films isn't canon except for the new material released since the revamp (ie Son of Dathomir).

No, I'm not disregarding canon in favor of non-canon. This was written at a time before the announcement, and it was directed towards the Legends community. Anybody who doesn't like it or doesn't leave it is welcome to be here but frankly has no reason to be here. And why wouldn't I be able to write about Legends sources? That's basically saying that nobody can write about Marvel Ultimate universe sources either.

As for insouciant, actually, you can still be posting here even if you were indifferent. There's countless people who "don't really care" but somehow find the time to come into threads and post irrelevant nonsense. I could list a few users off the top of my head but I can't because do that in public, and then there's people who claim not to care and yet come into threads and specifically target other users with the same things over and over again. Being indifferent is not necessarily being so negligent that you don't even post in a thread. You could not care about the outcome but make posts anyway.

As far as I'm concerned, you're one of those people, because firstly, you've been spent at least two threads arguing with me about canon, and secondly, you've been dragging this off-topic conversation for how many posts now? I've already retracted that you're not insouciant because your more recent posts prove that you do care, but obviously you also care about canonical disputes and misuse of words much more than the topic itself.

And no, I don't feel smarter by using smarter words. By the way, the dictionary also states insouciance can mean relaxed (back) or unbiased, since you love dictionary meanings so much. And even though claiming that you're insouciant towards the EU is a misspeaking on my part, I think saying you're insouciant towards the topic is perfectly true because absolutely none of your comments even relate to the topic at hand. You only took the time to debate about canon, yet again, which you've been discussing in at least one other thread now, and it was off-topic in that thread as well. If you have anything to say about the topic, please say it, but kindly stop talking about canon.

So let's try talking without any more "smart words". Do you have anything to say regarding the topic of the OP, or are you just loitering around to pester people with irrelevant issues?

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ShootingNova

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Back on topic, this post was made during a time I considered myself to be quite bad at blog-making, especially in regards to addressing these sorts of issues. I'm planning to make another, much more extensive and comprehensive post which is much more similar to Silver's Mace Windu vs Darth Sidious blog, and hopefully that will be more conclusive. I'll probably delete this blog as well.

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@shootingnova:

Wait. Wasn't Anakin holding back because he wanted her to make the confession?

Or am I missing something? lol

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Edited By ShootingNova

@spartankobe: No idea, don't really care. The portrayal of the fight was pretty stupid to begin with, and Barriss having those motives are so stupid I can't even fathom it.

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@shootingnova: Well I'm just gonna say he was holding back and keep saying it if someone brings up that fight then. :P

Until someone actually refutes me.

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@spartankobe: Go ahead and say whatever you like. I prefer to leave that fight alone, because Barriss betraying the Jedi and having those motives make no sense at all and then for some reason she became a Jedi again at the time of Order 66... that was one of the worst inconsistencies ever and probably one of the more unexplainable ones, which is probably one of the reasons why they decided to cut TCW of from the rest of the EU and make it its own timeline.

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Great job @shootingnova, I'm a fan of Star Wars (Play SW:TOR and that) and the Anakin Vs. Obi Wan battle (along with Sidious Vs Yoda) were the best lightsaber battles of all the films. I always believed or had some idea that Anakin was, for the most part, superior to Obi Wan however your post has cleared that up for me and also confirmed one or two things for me as well as enlighten me on a few points. I do honestly believe that if circumstances were different, and Anakin and Obi Wan were to fight on even ground at their peak, Anakin would eventually overpower Obi Wan. But great post!

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Beingfatissupercool

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@shootingnova:

My bad, she was a jedi knight, but only for a very short time tough .

Nice quote which sais Anakin was between 2 worlds and vulnerable but it also said in that same book :

Sidious sneered. "Perhaps you wish you could strike me down, is that it?"

"No, Master."

"What stops you from doing so? Obi-Wan was once your Master, and you were certainly prepared to kill him. Even if you failed."

This shows Anakin was perfectly prepared to kill Kenobi .

---

Anakin gets more power when he's raged
But the Force had always given him the ability to do that, especially in moments of rage, as he had demonstrated on Tatooine and elsewhere.

In this video Anakin was probably never more raged before ( unless the time he killed all those tusken raiders ) and still Kenobi beat him unarmed like it was nothing .

Loading Video...

2:43

Instrument of the same resolute intent that had carried Obi-Wan to Mustafar with one goal in mind: death to the enemy.

In his mind's eye Vader sawhis and the 501st's march to the Temple gates, their wrathful attack, the mad moments of bloodlust, the dark side unleashed in all its crimson fury. Some moments he remembered more clearly than others: pitting his blade against that of swordmaster Cin Drallig, beheading some of the very Masters who had instructed him in the ways of the Force, and, of course, his cold extermination of the younglings, and with them the future of the Jedi order.He had wondered beforehand: could he do it? Still new to the dark side, would he be able to call on its power to guide his hand and lightsaber?

In answer, the dark side had whispered: They are orphans. They are without family or friends. There is nothing that can be done with them. They are better off dead. But this recalling, weeks later, curdled his blood. This place should never have been built!

In fact, he hadn't killed the Jedi to serve Sidious, though Sidious was meant to believe just that. In his arrogance Sidious was unaware that Anakin had seen through him. Had the Sith Lord thought he would simply shrug off the fact that, from the start, Sidious had been manipulating Anakin and the war?

No, he hadn't killed the Jedi in service to Sidious, or, for that matter, to demonstrate his allegiance to the order of the Sith.

He had executed Sidious's command because the Jedi would never have understood Anakin's decision to sacrifice Mace and the rest in order that Padme might survive the tragic death she suffered in Anakin's visions.

More important, the Jedi would have attempted to stand in the way of the decisions he and Padme would have needed to make regarding the fate of the galaxy

Doesn't seem like he was hesitating here, contrary, it showed he knew exactly what he was fighting for , and Vader knew Padme was still alive when he was fighting Kenobi , so it's not like he lost his will there .

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ShootingNova

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@beingfatissupercool: Saying that he was prepared to kill Kenobi means nothing. Of course he was prepared. He had his lightsaber, he had the Force, and he was prepared to beat Kenobi (in the novel, he nearly kills Kenobi who is saved because he uses Electronic Manipulation on Anakin's mechanical hand) as such. How in the world does that contradict him being hindered? Being prepared for something doesn't mean you can ignore intrinsic hindrances, and Nick Gillard already confirmed Anakin is Obi-Wan's better:

Loading Video...

"Hayden in this film has moved up to a level nine. He's gone past Obi."

(0:01-0:05)

Intrepid37 also uploaded this, from The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith:

No Caption Provided

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Shawnbaby

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@shawnbaby: Not really. All the film novelizations are still canon, but any material not directly related to the films isn't canon except for the new material released since the revamp (ie Son of Dathomir).

No, I'm not disregarding canon in favor of non-canon. This was written at a time before the announcement, and it was directed towards the Legends community. Anybody who doesn't like it or doesn't leave it is welcome to be here but frankly has no reason to be here.

As for insouciant, actually, you can. There's countless people who "don't really care" but somehow find the time to come into threads and post irrelevant nonsense. I could list a few users off the top of my head but I can't because do that in public, and then there's people who claim not to care and yet come into threads and specifically target other users with the same things over and over again.

As far as I'm concerned, you're one of those people, because firstly, you've been spent at least two threads arguing with me about canon, and secondly, you've been dragging this off-topic conversation for how many posts now? I've already retracted that you're not insouciant because your more recent posts prove that you do care, but obviously you also care about canonical disputes and misuse of words much more than the topic itself.

And no, I don't feel smarter by using smarter words. By the way, the dictionary also states insouciance can mean relaxed (back), since you love dictionary meanings so much. And even though claiming that you're insouciant towards the EU is a misspeaking on my part, I think saying you're insouciant towards the topic is perfectly true because absolutely none of your comments even relate to the topic at hand.

So let's try talking without any more "smart words". Do you have anything to say regarding the topic of the OP, or are you just loitering around to pester people with irrelevant issues?

Yes, Insouciant can mean relaxed...but in the context you used it in it would make even less sense than the definition we were discussing. You've clearly stated now that you now realize that you used the word incorrectly so discussing other definitions is pointless. There are also a handful of other definitions that we could talk about as well...but wouldn't that be doing exactly what you are accusing me off? I just thought it was friggin' hilarious how badly you mangled the usage of the word. That would indicate that it is not a word you would normally use...which really does make it seem as though the only reason you used it was to try and make yourself look more educated than you actually are. Except you got caught doing it and now you want to play it off. But by all means...lets get back to the topic at hand.

My problem with you ignoring TCW is that TCW is relevant to the EU. Everything Canon in Star Wars is relevant to the EU. The problem I have with some of you EU zealots is that you sometimes seem to forget that the EU has always been secondary to the core canon. You can't ignore TCW anymore than you can ignore RoTJ.

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okayalright_44

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@shootingnova said:

@beingfatissupercool:

Considering the vast ignorance and inconsistency that TCW has in relations to the EU, and that this was a blog designed for EU discussions, I think we can discount TCW. Anakin is more often than not underplayed in that series. He was kicked several meters by a senator once.

Masters are generally more skilled and have more knowledge in the force then Jedi knights.

Generally, not always, because Master is a title, not a rank of power. That, and I think anybody who picked up any single EU source relating to Anakin, or perhaps even from watching the films alone, would understand that Anakin does not fit within the general, ordinary class of Jedi Knights. So this is meaningless.

Anakin struggles against a Padawan who is a bit older then the other padawans but is still a padawan but Anakin does eventually overpower her.

Barriss was a Jedi Knight, who finished her apprenticeship during the beginning of the Clone Wars, unless TCW retconned that. That, and she has a number of decent showings.

Also it is mentioned that Kenobi and Anakin were equally match on the official Disney Starwars.com website .

''Yoda assigned Obi-Wan to deal with Anakin, who had left Coruscant for the lava planet Mustafar. Both powerful and evenly matched, the two former friends dueled to a stalemate until Anakin attempted to leap over his old Master'',

And so do the sources that I quoted. None of this contradicts what I said.

It sais nowhere on the entire site that Anakin was somehow more hindered then Anakin, nor is there legend / canon resource to be sure about this . ( also not on Anakin's biography in the official Starwars databank or on his view of point on the Mustafar fight in the official databank)

Yes, there is a legend source for this, which I quoted in the OP if you had bothered to read it.

So maybe Anakin showed more feats about having more strength / speed, but that's no proof Kenobi can't do that eather , he just never had to do such things to complete his missions .

lol

So Obi-Wan could theoretically show better feats than Anakin or Yoda just because it was never proved otherwise? Don't be ridiculous. Nobody has to prove a negative point. What Obi-Wan could do or not is irrelevant (in the EU, it is directly indicated Anakin is superior) and Anakin just has better showings. Why people feel the need to circumvent that fact is beyond me, and unless you can prove that Obi-Wan can replicate the best of Anakin's showings, then yes, Anakin is superior.

Anakin struggles against a Padawan who is a bit older then the other padawans but is still a padawan but Anakin does eventually overpower her.

Barriss was a Jedi Knight, who finished her apprenticeship during the beginning of the Clone Wars, unless TCW retconned that. That, and she has a number of decent showings.

BTW Way Nova,offering some help, it states in the Star Wars: The Clone Wars:Episode Guide that Luminara Barrisswas no match for Anakin anyway.

Jedi Master Luminar Unduli and Tutso Mara taught Barriss to fight most effectively with a lightsaber. But she is no match for the The Chosen One.

Star Wars: The Clone Wars: Episode Guide

So he was is no way struggling with her, as beingfatisupercool is trying to indicate.

Edit: Meant to say Barriss

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Edited By ShootingNova

@shawnbaby:

1. To be honest, I had better ways of saving face, like simply editing my post from saying "EU' to "the topic", which would actually make it true, but whatever. In fact, I probably should be doing that next, just so that you can stop ranting on about how bad my diction is.

I concede, drop the point.

2. Not really. I was making this for an EU source, and I do ignore a handful of EU sources if they're stupid and inconsistent. It's really the same with the instances I brought up in TCW. They're "the same level of canon", so what do we do when we get inconsistent feats? This is why I wish TCW didn't exist like it did and that it followed the older series better, but whatever.

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@shawnbaby:

EU has always been secondary to the core canon.

Word

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@dextersinister said:

@shawnbaby:

EU has always been secondary to the core canon.

Word

1) That's not true. It was just as Canon until over 4 months ago. 2)This entire thread was constructed under the means/purposes of discussing EU content. So if you're not discussing what's in the OP(eu) or topic then kindly leave with your derailing and irrelevant drivel.

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Beingfatissupercool

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@shootingnova:

If you are saying Anakin's powers were hindered i think you are wrong :

''He could feel his power growing, indeed. He had the measure of his "Master''

( Anakin talking when he turner Darth Vader )

Please say it's Kenobi—Lord Vader gets such a thrill from killing

people who care for him -

Darth Sidious against Yoda

''sources from Revenge of the sith novel ''.

Also these words from the writer during their fight shows Kenobi is emotionally hindered :

And he knew that to strike Anakin down would burn his own heart to ash.

"You hesitate," Anakin said. "The flaw of compassion—"

"It's not compassion," Obi-Wan said sadly. "It's reverence for life. Even yours. It's respect for the man you were."

Obi-Wan still loved him.

Yoda had said it, flat-out: Allow such attachments to pass out of

one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself

understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again and again .

I am not saying Kenobi is physical hindered here, but i do dare to say that Anakin wasn't overall more limited then Kenobi in that fight .

In the entire fighting scene between Anakin and Kenobi, there has been absolutely no indication that Anakin overpowered Kenobi in any way besides from the beginning when Kenobi didn't let go his compassion yet .

( It's literally written that from the moment Kenobi let go of his emotions, he gets lose out of Anakin's physical grip )

There are as much evidences if not more that Anakin wasn't hindered then he actually was . ( Hayden's words don't count as it's not legend / cannon, it's his own subjective opinion , doesn't come from lucas or lucasarts)

I won't deny the possibility , but it's more likely that he wasn't limited .

And that guy saying Anakin is a 9 , while Kenobi is an 8 was about Anakin being a better swordfighter ( which i still don't accept ) , It doesn't say anything about their other battle skills .

I think the fact that Kenobi is better is because Kenobi is more experienced in extreme environment situations / stress / hindering factors from the environment and much more.

If you would let them fight in the jedi temple, with no emotionally problems , no lava coming your way, no heat that influences your physical condition , and much more, then i am sure Anakin would win from Kenobi .

But Kenobi is more experienced in every way, as we can see he's amazing strategic skills in the Phantom menace / clone wars / rots .

This will always be a vague topic, but i think if Anakin and Kenobi fight again, it would at least be 5 / 10 for Kenobi .

A better swordsman doesn't make you the better jedi look at Yoda .

And that guy saying Anakin is a 9 where Kenobi is an 8 isn't legend nor cannon as well ...

But i personally i take his answer seriously none the less

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ComicsrulebutDBZdoes2

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Beacuse obi wan is a boss /thread

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Shawnbaby

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@dextersinister said:

@shawnbaby:

EU has always been secondary to the core canon.

Word

1) That's not true. It was just as Canon until over 4 months ago. 2)This entire thread was constructed under the means/purposes of discussing EU content. So if you're not discussing what's in the OP(eu) or topic then kindly leave with your derailing and irrelevant drivel.

Wrong....before Disney purchased Star Wars there were multiple levels of canon....with the films being the at the top of the hierarchy. The Clone Wars exists in a place between G-Canon and the rest of the Expanded Universe.

  • G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie).[1]
  • T-canon,[2] or Television Canon[3], refers to the canon level comprising the feature film Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the two television shows Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Warslive-action TV series.[4][5] It was devised recently in order to define a status above the C-Level canon, as confirmed by Chee[6].
  • C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be;[7] they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes,Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports.
  • S-canon is Secondary Canon; the materials are available to be used or ignored as needed by current authors. This includes mostly older works, such as much of the Marvel Star Wars comics, that predate a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contains certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements have been elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors, while many other older works (such as The Han Solo Adventures) were accounted for in continuity from the start despite their age, and thus were always C-canon.
  • N is Non-Canon. What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label) and anything else directly and irreconcilably contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm. Information cut from canon, deleted scenes, or from canceled Star Wars works falls into this category as well, unless another canonical work references it and it is declared canon.

Under the new system there is only one level of canon. The Films, The Clone Wars, and any newly released material are all considered canon. Everything else is now under the "Legends" banner and represents an alternate version of events.

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SpartanKobe

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@okayalright_44 said:

@dextersinister said:

@shawnbaby:

EU has always been secondary to the core canon.

Word

1) That's not true. It was just as Canon until over 4 months ago. 2)This entire thread was constructed under the means/purposes of discussing EU content. So if you're not discussing what's in the OP(eu) or topic then kindly leave with your derailing and irrelevant drivel.

Wrong....before Disney purchased Star Wars there were multiple levels of canon....with the films being the at the top of the hierarchy. The Clone Wars exists in a place between G-Canon and the rest of the Expanded Universe.

  • G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie).[1]
  • T-canon,[2] or Television Canon[3], refers to the canon level comprising the feature film Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the two television shows Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Warslive-action TV series.[4][5] It was devised recently in order to define a status above the C-Level canon, as confirmed by Chee[6].
  • C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be;[7] they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes,Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports.
  • S-canon is Secondary Canon; the materials are available to be used or ignored as needed by current authors. This includes mostly older works, such as much of the Marvel Star Wars comics, that predate a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contains certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements have been elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors, while many other older works (such as The Han Solo Adventures) were accounted for in continuity from the start despite their age, and thus were always C-canon.
  • N is Non-Canon. What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label) and anything else directly and irreconcilably contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm. Information cut from canon, deleted scenes, or from canceled Star Wars works falls into this category as well, unless another canonical work references it and it is declared canon.

Under the new system there is only one level of canon. The Films, The Clone Wars, and any newly released material are all considered canon. Everything else is now under the "Legends" banner and represents an alternate version of events.

You see those little numbers right above the end of those sentences? I know where you got this from.

Did not read.

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War_Hulk_Kills_Sentry2

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when they both put there hands up to eachother in ROTS n both tried to force push eachother why didnt anakin win

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Shawnbaby

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@shawnbaby said:

@okayalright_44 said:

@dextersinister said:

@shawnbaby:

EU has always been secondary to the core canon.

Word

1) That's not true. It was just as Canon until over 4 months ago. 2)This entire thread was constructed under the means/purposes of discussing EU content. So if you're not discussing what's in the OP(eu) or topic then kindly leave with your derailing and irrelevant drivel.

Wrong....before Disney purchased Star Wars there were multiple levels of canon....with the films being the at the top of the hierarchy. The Clone Wars exists in a place between G-Canon and the rest of the Expanded Universe.

  • G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie).[1]
  • T-canon,[2] or Television Canon[3], refers to the canon level comprising the feature film Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the two television shows Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Warslive-action TV series.[4][5] It was devised recently in order to define a status above the C-Level canon, as confirmed by Chee[6].
  • C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be;[7] they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes,Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports.
  • S-canon is Secondary Canon; the materials are available to be used or ignored as needed by current authors. This includes mostly older works, such as much of the Marvel Star Wars comics, that predate a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contains certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements have been elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors, while many other older works (such as The Han Solo Adventures) were accounted for in continuity from the start despite their age, and thus were always C-canon.
  • N is Non-Canon. What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label) and anything else directly and irreconcilably contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm. Information cut from canon, deleted scenes, or from canceled Star Wars works falls into this category as well, unless another canonical work references it and it is declared canon.

Under the new system there is only one level of canon. The Films, The Clone Wars, and any newly released material are all considered canon. Everything else is now under the "Legends" banner and represents an alternate version of events.

You see those little numbers right above the end of those sentences? I know where you got this from.

Did not read.

Your point? I wasn't trying to hide the source. Those "little numbers" are reference points for the actual sources.

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@shawnbaby: You got this from wookiepeedia.

Not only that, one of the sources is listed twice and that facebook reference doesn't even work. I clicked on them and checked the sources. And guess what else, I even clicked on those other links that contained this so called "evidence" and all it does is take me to the freaken support page of starwars.com that doesn't even contain the evidence.

I am well aware about the canon rankings. Just wanting to point out that some of those "sources" don't seem to work for me and that you used wookiepeedia. Can someone else check them out? I'm not getting anything.

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ShootingNova

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@shawnbaby: What's wrong with me writing about something outside of the standard canon? This is my blog, you know. There's no need to raise a fuss about canon in every single thread.

when they both put there hands up to eachother in ROTS n both tried to force push eachother why didnt anakin win

Read the OP.

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Shawnbaby

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@shawnbaby: You got this from wookiepeedia.

Not only that, one of the sources is listed twice and that facebook reference doesn't even work. I clicked on them and checked the sources. And guess what else, I even clicked on those other links that contained this so called "evidence" and all it does is take me to the freaken support page of starwars.com that doesn't even contain the evidence.

I am well aware about the canon rankings. Just wanting to point out that some of those "sources" don't seem to work for me and that you used wookiepeedia. Can someone else check them out? I'm not getting anything.

Yes. I used Wookiepedia and I've never tried to hide that fact. I was only using it to reinforce what I had already said about the Multiple levels of Star Wars Canon. I could have simply just listed the various levels of canon and left it at that...but the fine folk at Wookiepedia went through all the effort to actually define each level.

If you think there is a major error in the Wookiepedia outline regarding Star Wars Canon Levels then feel free to correct it. If you agree that the outline is basically accurate than there really is no point in complaining about the source.

@shawnbaby: What's wrong with me writing about something outside of the standard canon? This is my blog, you know. There's no need to raise a fuss about canon in every single thread.

I thought we were done. I already explained how my position differs from yours and I was willing to leave it at that because it seemed you were beginning to take things personally.

BTW...if you wanted to make it a blog...you probably shouldn't have posted it to the Battle Forum.

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ShootingNova

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Edited By ShootingNova

@shawnbaby: No, I'm asking why you would always bring up canonical affairs, including in this thread, which was of no contribution to helpful discussion.

Also, as a battle-related blog, it should be here. That's why the mods haven't moved it yet. Unless it ought to be in the Gen. Discussion forum.

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Shawnbaby

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@shawnbaby: No, I'm asking why you would always bring up canonical affairs, including in this thread, which was of no contribution to helpful discussion.

Also, as a battle-related blog, it should be here. That's why the mods haven't moved it yet. Unless it ought to be in the Gen. Discussion forum.

What it is is your analysis of why the Anakin/Obiwan fight went down the way it did. in my opinion it doesn't need to be in the battle forum at all. Tell you what, I'll tag in @jedixman and he can weigh in on whether or not this thread belongs in the battle forum or if perhaps maybe it should be moved somewhere more applicable. I'll be fine with whatever.

I bring up canonical affairs because I think they are important when discussing canonical fights. Obviously you don't agree with me on that and I was willing to leave it at that...but now you are dragging the conversation off-topic again by bringing it up. How exactly is doing that contributing to Helpful Discussion.

Again, I'm really getting the impression you are taking this far too seriously and I'm happy to leave it alone. As far as I am concerned we simply have a difference of opinion on how TCW applies.

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ShootingNova

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@shawnbaby:

1. It's meant to clear up battle forum misconceptions, but if it deserves to be the Gen. Discussion area then I'm fine with that.

2. Well, let's just agree to disagree then.

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Beingfatissupercool

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Hey i found this after re-reading ( knew i remembered something like masters always being better then Knight and it ain't just a rank )

This is Shaak-Ti speaking to Anakin before he goes after Windu .

Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What

can you possibly do?"

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ShootingNova

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@beingfatissupercool: What does that have to do with anything? No, it doesn't prove Masters > Knights. All it says is that those masters (Kolar, Mace, Kit, Saesee) are the best in the Order, and they are. It was referring to how he wasn't capable of doing anything compared to the four of them collectively, which is obvious. That, and Shaak's opinion is just that - her own opinion.

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@shootingnova:

Lol it did kinda point out that Shaak tought Anakin is nowhere near their tier .

And saying it is just Shaak's own opinion ... ?

Then from now on everything any character has ever said can't be used because it is their own opinion .

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Edited By ShootingNova

@beingfatissupercool: I never said her opinion was wrong, I said it was not necessarily right. Read people's posts before embarrassing yourself.

As for Shaak saying Anakin was nowhere near that tier, no, she didn't. She just said Anakin was nowhere near the collective abilities of all the masters, and that's one interpretation of the quote only. It's ambiguous to say the least.