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Saxz

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^^^

In terms of illusionary potency I give it to Itachi because Tsukiyomi.

But knowing Xavier and his Astral skills, he probably has some skill where he literally separates your mind from your body rapes it and his ability to mind control is on another level.

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#2  Edited By Saxz

You're kidding. Foddertsus against an Elite.

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#3  Edited By Saxz

@eredin12: Man that's a lot, with CV being as it is, I think it will do us both Good if don't quote-reply everything. And just reply to essentials.

I Know shockwaves are way stronger than their source. Which is why I think Madara is solidly Island level for partially destroying 2+ mountains. Ok let's settle this

visual feats Madara = Island level

using calcs Madara = country level.

Though Still doesn't make him greater than Kaido who has his own set of calcs probably putting him at continental+.

Considering said Author don't usually have science degrees, it's enough to tell you they could Care less about calc result, that's why DBZ Goku is a billion tonner in fan calcs but in reality (Canon) the dude was written by The author struggling with hundreds of tons. CAP. Can't remember the name of the Manga but a dude Vaped part of a moon, and was calced at planet level, but then in a conversation the guy said it'll be impossible for him to actually destroy a planet.

Calcs are usually your word against thiers or your method against thiers, I don't think there's necessarily a correct way to calc, don't misquote me there's a correct math but hardly a correct method, because we can't check it against anything.. since the author doesn't run Canon calcs,he just measures what he draws destroyed. But there's no doubt some feats are above others. For example someone who vaporize a mountain is clearly greater than someone who simply destroys it. It's fairly understable that the latter is greater and he should clearly be mountain+ for that, But I don't think the author cares (except he's a math wiz) that the the person can wipe out a country with the energy yield from vaporizing a mountain.

But like I said, calcs are great, they are just chaotic in a civilized debate. And I Don't think that's a subjective opinion, because most high grade CAV/debate I see rarely makes use of calc in scaling, if at all. Of course you're entitled to your opinion that calcs are fine but just be ready for the impending chaos it usually brings. Yeah that's my piece for the calc vs feat point.

Sigh surely You don't need me to explain why Kurama didn't tank the full power of the laser. It's not complicated. After charging the bomb(100%), he used almost 50% offsetting the bomb and spraying it hundreds of meters. If you assume the full 100% hit Kurama then where the hell were those energy wasted from

No it's quite clear if you're using the anime, what Ino deflected was a circular shaped bomb which released 100% of its energy at once in a concussive light show, what Kurama tanked was a reddish burn type laser streaming for seconds, very different.

Again you can't say Kurama was "unharmed" when his tails were Vaped and Kurama is heavily harmed because he was "knocked down". Because "dazed". That doesn't Makes sense.....MMA logic again, the force from a player having his hands Vaped from the force of guarding, is no way comparable to a force that simply knocks him down. Because "lol 30 second daze" And usually in sports the force that Knocks them out, isn't because it's so great,it's because the force was past their guard and hit a vital area (say the jaw or temple And all that). Sounds familiar. So except you're telling me on purpose vaping a boxers hand = simply Knocking him down. I don't see your point.

In the Manga Kurama was down for only one panel. Anime sometimes stretch things out while overlapping scenes so I see why you're confused. Kurama was never in danger of passing out or in too much Pain (that's not even possible in the first place) not while Naruto is okay and the "real" Kurama is in Naruto's body. When talking Naruto is always shown in his inner World talking to Kurama not his mere avatar construct.

Yes the avatar are jointly controlled, which is why it can't pass out when Naruto is conscious. The Construct isn't a robot I never said it couldn't react, I just said it doesn't feel pain like a biological being would. Like a Logia (from one piece)but not necessarily intangible, you could bust a hole in his head and he'll just fix it by replenishing the energy, he doesn't have a Brain that gets busted or gets concussion. And NO "This is fiction" doesn't explain away everything especially when there's a logical explanation. The same reason Kurama can't get concussion is the same reason he can't get an actual injury.

Ok Good point for Hiruzen, which would later get contradicted by your 6th gate Lee point, but let's leave that for another time. The rest , Gamabunta??

https://i.imgur.com/e2O0SHE.jpg

Kakuzu- https://i.imgur.com/uOj6TNw.jpg

honestly I don't think there are exactly shortages of people equalling Tailed beast strength or getting past their durability. It's basically accomplishable by most Elite jounin- low Kage Level, who are definitely not Country level(Physically).

Hashirama wasn't specifying physical strength there. He meant his overall strength as a Shinobi.

Lol i am done with your comparison with Saitama, one is getting bored to death(we know this, that's the basis of his character) the other is getting beaten, overpowered taking damage and sitting on his ass. enough said. What's your point here exactly?everyone getting Ragdolled in fiction= Saitama and let it happen. Cause both scenarios are not remotely comparable apart from ragdoll.

If Madara had the strength, the fact that he is 80Kg would be irrelevant and he wouldn't fly from those punches or he would recover quick enough to counter.

The holes are from the piercing Attack, the Blood in his mouth and bruises are from the punches and his missing arm is from getting raped physically.

*Sigh* it's PIS because he needs sharingan to use.... whatever not relevant. Prove he didn't need the susano and the seal was practically completed, Justu formula and all and you Said he wasn't almost sealed?? He broke caused of his amp stats with susano? Sure sure....Why would he need susano when the last time he was shown he was on his ass bloodied and unable to move.... you literally crucified the Tailed beast for way less. This is just you fawning over Madara. Nothing I can do here.

Unable to move for 30 seconds is your headcanon, This is not an MMA fight so it doesn't go by its rules that 30 seconds = loss, This is anime, where characters take thier time letting the other monologue thier ability... What's important is Kurama showed 0 damage, he was just thrown off balance, understandably from an Attack he didn't see coming. Again except you have something comparable to breaking Kurama avatar all Madara did was overpower an unsuspecting Kurama. Kurama who you failed to show has passed out or has the ability to pass out. Meanwhile I showed you Naruto himself perfectly unharmed, just pushed off balance

Kurama didn't destroy pain orb. 6th gate Gai isn't stronger than 6th gate Lee if the latter has better feats.

Adult Naruto and Sasuke have almost nothing to do with this so I'll tell you why it's debatable if we come across it later. Back to topic.

It's not rocket science. Susano takes the majority of the momentum and shatters, while Madara is only Hit by the remnant of the force. It's like taking cover from an explosion or hurricane, just because your cover gets destroyed and you survive, doesn't mean you're More durable. Or better still a bullet passing through a vest, whatever hits you have drastically had its momentum decreased. Susano> Madara no argument there, that's always how it's being portrayed since it's introduction with Itachi, Sasuke and even Edo Madara. Adult Naruto and Sasuke are the exception (debatable) not the norm.

Your links don't work, so I can't see the image you're trying to show me, but Making the avatar look like ants isn't proof of 1000km or country sized. A 100km radius is enough to make those avatars pratically invisible.

Australia has 2000km radius give or take, the moon has about 1700km radius, so a 1000km radius is definitely close to the size of a Small continent. France is a pretty decent sized country and I think that circle is a 500km radius, not 1000km.

True he stands in the open prior to the explosion, but it's impossible to tell what is going on in the Zoomed out scene with the his Avatars and construct clearly in play, like i showed he has being shown shielding himself within the construct even while he was in the open right before the blast.

Hashirama has never opted to tank a single TBB with Base durability, he used Rashomon to divert it the one time when he faced it Head on. He has shown nothing that suggest he could take a TBB Head on.

Not to mention something pretty obvious in Narutoverse. Shinobi (in base) aren't notably more durable than each other despite power levels. I understand your logic to scale this like DB or OPM but Narutoverse just isn't built that way. I am pretty sure what would one shot Shippuden Ino would end up killing EMS Sasuke despite the astronomical power(AP) difference. The only ones with Notable base durability are Raikages who are said to have blood of iron and blah blah....but Shinobi durability barely reflect thier other stats. Now the existence of six path chakra, Ninja tech Androids, otsusuki all end up shaking this up a bit. But Hashirama is pre-six path era, His durability clearly don't reflect his stats. Tsunade can punch Hashirama or Madara Head clean off(she already did to Edo Madara) and she is nowhere near the levels a Tailed beast bomb or PS slash. Yet that's where you rate their respective durabilities.

Beerus Had cause to hold back against a (friend? Ally?), Madara didn't against an enemy. false equivalency. I am not saying it isn't possible but the Beerus/Bulma example isn't just good, it's as comical as the Nami/Luffy one.

Lol this still ended up longer than I would've liked.

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Lille solos. Thank you.

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Definitely stops at 4. Juubito solos the verse at once.

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@eredin12:

Ok I'mma rush this, so kindly look past any typing errors.

So taking your word for it shockwave is three thousands time weaker, so we're talking 3000 times Mountain level?? So we're talking what? Island level. Yep seems about right. The fact about lifting up billion tons at supersonic speed and what not are things the author barely care about. But sure I guess you could get it up to country level using some obscene calc. I already agreed to this, I don't know why you repeating yourself.

There's nothing continental about that Juubi laser. If you think said explosion that's being generous is operating under a 300km radius is continental Then I'll Love to see what you think about someone breaking an actual continent to pieces. All I see is mountains being violently pulverized about a 300km radius. And there's no reason why this doesn't count as Large island - possibly small country level, especially when we know an actual small country can fit thousands of mountains. You're just jumping tiers for almost 0 reasons, I think you need to rethink what it actually Means to be country level. How about you answer that first? Because country level to me is cratering an actual country sized area.

It's actual cool to use calcs to quantify feats, that's if they weren't 100s of Variants of the same calc that depends on the feeling of The fanbase at the moment .... I think I just saw Multcontinetal Akainu punk hazard feat, and Moon level hado 90 monster Aizen, came across Moon level Galan one Time but not too sure. So enjoy "sciencing" that. I mean ofc what else should we use other than the visual source material, varying fan interpretations of feats are hella lot reliable.

Secondly, I feel I should remind you what we've being arguing about is a legit juubi bomb not the juubi laser BM Naruto tanked. The laser Kurama tanked would be about half of that actual Juubi bomb's yield, Unlike the bomb which released all it's concussive force at once, This bomb's energy was turned into a Laser stream which lasted a few seconds, and it wasted some seconds/energy off setting the combined Bijuu bomb barrage of 8 and 9 tails

https://i.imgur.com/UXzrOcI.png

and then wasted lots of energy crossing over several dozen meters and firing into thin air

before finally landing on Kurama with the remaining energy.who endured the remaining seconds the laser lasted.

https://i.imgur.com/mi26sVE.png

Since you're all science,. you should know Kurama in no way tanked the full power of the bomb, because he never tanked the entire Laser and seeing as his tails got vaporized, I don't think he could. If the entire stream had hit him beginning to end unhindered then it would have likely gotten past the tails and past the avatar. So honestly there goes Kurama = Bijuu bomb.

I don't get that entire paragraph of juubi laser not hitting his head or not. It's not relevant. What's relevant is that Juubidama damaged a significant portion of the construct with a fraction of its energy and Madara did not. That's a spectacularly simple fact that mental gymnastics won't debunk.

You keep Using The MMA analogy so please Tell me,what logic compares a boxer dazing someone with to actually vaping head their entire head off. I'll wait.....

Don't forget the bulk Juubidama's AP comes from it actually exploding like a nuke, so I don't know what you're slickly attempting with Bee holding it back.

Kaido Thunder bagua should scale above Whitebeard casual quakes and some other island+ feats. And this would be a valid argument only if you've actually proven here that Hashirama can no sell a damn Juubidama. Juubidama is definitely far greater than Thunder bagua and likewise definitely far greater than Hashirama's

Durability.

Kurama didn't destroy the gravity sphere, IIRC he tried to escape with no avail. The sphere was perfectly intact Till Naruto switched back to human form and stood under the CT. And it isn't large island sized, you have to stop name dropping these tiers without knowing what they mean.

Again drop the scans were Kurama shows he knows what was coming and where it was coming from, the scene happened almost instantaneously and never cut to Kurama being at alert or Kurama raising up his hand or tails to defend, against an Attack he doesn't know what or where it's coming from....Drop the scans of Kurama guarding or drop your argument.

You're right being off guard don't reduce durability, which is why Madara never made so much as a dent on the Avatar, it's durability Never faltered. you know what being off guard does? Increase the likelihood of being taken off balance. which is why the phrase "brace yourself" exist.

Ignoring it's a highly shared feat which makes this point null, 6 gates adult Lee is not physically fodder to 6 Tails Naruto, you can't say that because as you just said Lee has a better feat and I can't think of any reason for 6 Tails Naruto to scale above him.

Both sage mode Naruto and Madara did the same thing, flooring a Bijuu. Kurama also sat on his ass for a few seconds When SM Naruto threw him, if you claim Kurama was heavily damaged as opposed to what SM did then show scans of that heavy damage, but if you're operating only on Madara flooring him for few seconds then you have no argument.

Explain to me the logic of how a chakra construct gets a concussion And feels Pain?? the same construct that Teen Sasuke Maims without issue or Isshiki pin cushioned with his rods without so much as a wince, I can't remember when The construct was ever shown to have felt pain. Except recently in the anime when he let out a cry but that's after Naruto got his guts spear headed by Jigen not because the avatar was damaged.

And I think that I should remind you that the avatar is remotely(sometimes jointly) controlled by Naruto, for the avatar to be KO'd or stunned in anyway,Naruto is the one who has to be stunned. Kurama avatar has never being KO'd on its own, that's a lie- please drop scans.

Actually it was Old Hiruzen who pushed Kurama back, not prime and Gamabunta(Minato frog summon, might be misspelling it) literally pinned down Kurama for almost a minute during Konoha invasion. Just like I mentioned These guys and the others I mentioned don't have Country level physicals and they don't need it to overpower Kurama's strength which is way less than his durability as a construct, simple.

If you think past Madara >>>Current Madara after the numerous abilities he gained. I really don't know what to say to that. That wasn't the Narrator speaking that was Hashirama speaking and his words are not wrong considering current (alive) Madara >> EMS Alive Madara >>> Edo Madara (because of Edo nerfs).

I need scans of Tailed beast being Knocked out, because being temporarily put down doesn't count as a KO and they did worse to him and Kurama just embarrassed him.

Are we watching the same series??? Lol that's my line.

Got tossed like a ragdoll.

https://i.imgur.com/juq51YP.jpg

Clearly being put down on his ass with several bruises and bleeding from his mouth.

https://i.imgur.com/UAGfwTM.jpg

Almost gets crunched by Gaara's seal, needed a susano(PIS) to break out.

Gets casually bullied by Kurama in an amped form.

https://i.imgur.com/vCtaoWV.jpg

and Tail slapped by the Bijuus

https://i.imgur.com/AtMpujd.jpg

Comes out with heavy injuries despite Susano soaking most of the damage

https://i.imgur.com/FrekQSX.jpg

What part of this equals they did nothing to him, meanwhile Tailed beast gets thrown off balance and they're oneshotted. Please make it make sense.

The double standard is way too high. How does being knocked down for a single panel = one shotted???

Saitama received 0 damage and allowed it to happen, Madara is all bloody and beating up....there's no comparison here. He got Ragdolled in all sense of the word and put on his arse. I never once saw Saitama fall on the floor.

So their Tail swipes > Bijuudama. lol. I don't think you're serious, please bring feats for their physical Attacks exceeding Bijuudama I'll wait......

If Adult Naruto and Sasuke became as durable as their Avatars(debatable). I don't see how that changes the status of Madara and Teen Sasuke Who were shown to be less durable. And Madara only got off with that less injury because Susano soaked most of the damage as it should. Susano>>> Madara's durability that's not an argument. It doesn't Matter if Madara is 80kg if he had the strength he wouldn't be played around and he is definitely not like Saitama who is generally unconcerned and allows it to happen and not getting hurt.

Lol those Mountain aren't 1km until proven and Those explosions aren't a thousand times wider Than the mountain..and like I said that whole scene(not just the explosion) the entire scene is under a 100km radius. Would you mind looking how a 100 mile (185km) radius looks.

https://i.imgur.com/KULsJVI.jpg

It covers a few US States and many cities with this being a fraction of one of those cities.

https://i.imgur.com/RZv76kM.jpg

Can you confidently shove a 1000+ of that scenery into the explosions, cuz that's what you mean by saying those explosions have a 1000km radius. Imagine spouting 1000km radius...Bruh that's almost the size of a continent.

You should have just asked of the scan instead of assuming I made stuff up, now you look silly with that sacarsm.

https://youtu.be/jWQtJFuJSKQ

Time stamp 7:02 - Hashirama shielding himself from a Bijuu bomb blast.

True Zoomed out cut scenes make things bigger but something like 7:02 might be missed happening off camera.

No the Nami example is just as Good because clearly Beerus meant to Attack Bulma as Madara meant to Attack Sai.

Still yet to show me a Scan of Kurama passing/passed out against Madara, No? then it's the same as the SM slam.

I read the scene, just because they didn't do anything and regaining thier composure When Madara monologued for 5 seconds doesn't mean they were passed out and it's not even possible for Kurama to even pass out as he is a construct controlled mainly by Naruto. His well being depends entirely on Naruto, that's a basic fact. You can literally cut the construct into pieces and all Kurama have to do is funnel more chakra From inside Naruto and recreate the construct.

No you saying A combined physical attack from Tailed beast >>> Juubi (fucking)dama is what has nothing to do with reality. Like it was literally mentioned, their TBB is their greatest power.

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@lichgod3:

They burned the entire seal down because of how small it was. That's like burning through Isshiki Bowl seal. That's nothing compared to an entire planet+ sized dimension. It's difficult to drop scans now but just google Kaguya's dimensions.

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@eredin12:

Edo Madara Susano doesn't have country level feats neither does Kurama.(except you're bringing on some fan calcs). The juubi laser looks much more impressive in the Anime so it's much more than I realize but I still wouldn't give it country level. Maybe island+. Of course I have no idea how High you'll get it if you use some obscene calcs.

Again Madara never damaged the Avatar. it's not like they were knocked out, they just took Hit from an unknown force which pushed them back a little and were more in shock than heavily damaged. The Juubidama you're comparing it to actually broke the avatar and vaped the tails while forcing Kurama into a timeout and that's after Kurama actively guarded against it. The only way this works is if Madara had broken through the Avatar's defence ( Jigen style) like the Juubidama did.

Again physically overpowering a Tailed beast isn't impressive, Sage mode did it, KCM did it, I believe Raikage did it, 3rd Hokage(using Emma) did it, 4th Hokage (using Gamabunta) did it. But the Most obvious one has to be SM Naruto throwing around Kurama and leaving him on his ass.

Madara's past strength+ new Rinnegan+ new wood release + new sage mode + a bit of six path juice. Yeah that's way past his past strength. Hashirama is clearly weaker.

Kurama curled up and wrapped his entire body with his tails to defend against the blast and it never hit 8 tails, Kakashi Kamui'd him out to ambush Juubi. IIRC.

If you're Hit with something you can't see and don't know it's coming, then you can't guard against it, you're effectively off guard.

Kurama durability was not affected, Madara never got past his defense, he never got breached, he was just physically overpowered and disoriented, which is something Sage mode Naruto can replicate. Kurama(at this point) is a pure chakra construct, the only way to "hurt" him is to actually break though his construct, he is not having a concussion.

If Madara is physically stronger than the Bijuu then he wouldn't get ragdolled worse than what he did to the Tailed beast. And then we have Kurama who is on a whole other level, casually bully his humanoid susano with one tail, which is supposed to be a great amp on Madara's strength. I don't see the point you're trying to make here.

The Saitama vs suriyuu analogy is a bad one, because we know what Saitama level is and that his demeanor is basically uninterested and he could effectively decide not to move an inch if he wants.

That's not comparable to Madara getting Ragdolled across the battlefield, damaging him heavily and busting up his arm, yes they combined their attack to do it but Madara also defended with his susano with absolutely no effect.

Honestly i don't see how you consider Limbo unsuspectingly suckerpunching the tailed beast as "nigh oneshotting" and Base Madara beatdown where he received a lot of damage as irrelevant.? It's wierd. The tailed beast clearly owned base Madara.

Those explosions with Madara and Hashirama are island level at Best. Yes they dwarf mountains 100s of times, but I should remind you even a Small-average country like UK has 6000+ islands.

The explosion all look to be operating under a 100KM radius and it heavily involved thier Avatars soaking most of the damage. It would be a hassle to find but I can vaguely remember remember Hashirama deploying construct mid bato hide from blast. There's a reason all the feats you're showing me involves constructs and are mostly zoomed out cut scenes. Why not show me a feat of Hashirama directly no selling a island - country TBB without construct in the mix.

Gaara and Shukaku visibly damaged him is what matters, whether it did anything is up to Madara's endurance and Regen. Although he you may have a point with piercing durability but I don't think they should be that far apart.

Maybe using Nami beating up Luffy is a Better example than using Beerus/Bulma. Because obviously these are serious fight compared to the actual war Sai and Madara had going on. ​

It's not false equivalency, to Lift Kurama,Naruto had to overpower his center of balance and he did and he Made Kurama sit on his ass for a while disorienting him. It's very much equal to Madara overpowering Kurama overcoming his balance and disorienting him. Both actions did no notable damage.

​I still don't know where you get knocked out for 30+ Seconds from, Naruto wasn't even destabilized for that long, he only lost his balance for an instant. If you insist they were almost one shotted, I'll like to see a scan of Kurama/Naruto losing or about to lose Consciousness, because they were never shown as such. So comparing it to a KO is so not fair.

Kurama was definitely caught off guard, he couldnt see what was attacking him so he couldn't defend against, and if he wasn't defending against it and didn't Know it was coming or what it was then he was caught off guard. That's the literal definition. Not to mention it all happened in a split second, from the looks of it they barely processed a thought before the next one was hit.

Madara can't even physically no sell the Tailed beast combined tail strikes even with the Susano impressive durability amp, he ends up heavily damaged with a busted up arm. This isn't all that hard.

Island+ - Country level Juubidama >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kurama and 8 tailed TBB >>>>>The Rest Tailed beast combined TBB >>>>>>>>>>Tailed beast combined Tail swipe >>>>>>> humanoid Susano >>>>> Madara's durability.

Madara's durability is at the bottom of the barrel and it's not comparable to a Juubidama at all, if a combined Tail swipe mess him up that much (despite Susano protecting him) then a combined TBB( the tailed beast greatest Power) will make him unrecognizable, forget a Juubidama

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@decaffeinated:

You missed the part where second Hokage was the fastest Ninja alive in a time where Hashirama and Madara existed. Somehow you think being magnitude stronger will always equal being magnitude faster. This isn't Dragonball.

Madara>>> 5 Kages, there's no argument there but he isn't far above Ay in speed, Madara complimented his speed and had a bit of trouble with Ay's speed and he was never fast enough to outright blitz any Kage or do anything that shows he is massively above them in speed.

I don't understand? How do you describe losing an arm and bleeding, as "walking it off.

I said I have no problems with fan clacs, but by on panel feats he isn't country Level and similarly by fan clacs one piece can also be scaled higher.

And yet you've failed to drop a single LS feat (or scaling) for Hashirama.

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#10  Edited By Saxz

@lichgod3:

The dimensions are at least Multiplantary sized, containing moons, with some being star sized- containing a sun.

They can't burn anything here. Any burning they do is pratically irrelevant.