Saint Reboots- Batman V Superman

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Folks, it's time to do something that is close to my heart.... because it's in the form of a knife that was put in it. I'm talking about a little film that you probably never heard of.... Batman V Superman (has Vietnam like Flashbacks). The movie came out, and in what nobody saw coming, was more damaging among fans than Man of Steel. I wanted to love BvS so flippin much.... but I just couldn't, Despite what you may think of MOS, I could atleast argue that it had the ultimate set up for a sequel, and it felt like the movie just didn't care and wanted to really flesh out the ONE STORYLINE BATMAN HAD! But rush and under develop the MULTIPLE AND ARGUABLY MORE IMPORTANT AND WORLD BUILDING STORYLINES SUPERMAN HAD! *takes deep breaths*.... Instead of doing a review on the Ultimate Cut (which everyone and their mothers has done), I've decided to rework the entire story of BvS and doing something better. But, I will be taking aspects from the movie and working them in. I'll make a list of what's staying and what I'm cutting out.

In

-World doesn't trust Superman/Being Split on him

-Lex knowing Superman is Clark

-Bruce being more brutal

-The Fight (duh)

-Doomsday and Superman Dying

-Wonder Woman

-KGBeast working for Luthor

Out

-Lex Blowing up the Senate

-Lois Lane tracking down a bullet

-The dude in a wheelchair

-The fake Africa Testimony

-The Senate stuff

-Bruce having the future visions

K now... let's begin. I will be doing character breakdown, and focus more on scenes and what characters do throughout the movie. The story is more or less the same, but some major parts taken out and replaced with others.

Superman

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Saving People In A Banned Country: Many countries around the world have actually banned Superman from entering their countries. But in the start of the movie a city in a certain country (Let's say Russia), has a town that's in some sort of trouble. The moment Superman is spotted, he is blasted with a new weapon made by Lex and used by the Government. The people in danger see Superman get hit and go down. But seconds later, Superman get's up and saves everyone.

The Public: Superman will at time save people and show how far he's come. He's quick to put people at ease and has gotten quicker and more versatile with his powers. But even after saving people, he'll overhear people distrust him and call him a government dog.

Kryptonian Tech- Superman in the movie is seen dealing with the use of Kryptonian Tech all around (it was actually what was used on him when he saved that town), as some people have been spotted around the globe using it and with the help of Henry Irons, he is helping him track it down. He is one of the few people who has figured out to use it and Superman has come to trust Irons over the past few years.

Lois and Clark: They have moved in together. Lois for most of the time, is their as emotional support. At some point in the flick, she receives information about what Lex Corp is doing and it's up to her to stop Lex's plan.

The Turn- At this point in the film, the world now thinks Superman is guilty since there is film and witnesses to him killing and destroying (obviously this is Bizarro). While there are still people (like kids) who don't believe this is true, the President issues a warrant out for Superman to either come in and answer these allegations or be taken down with military force.

Lex Luthor

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Playing All Sides: In the movie, you'll see his intellect by how he manipulates everyone and is also finding ways to profit of the Superman problem, while at the same time try to destroy him. In the beginning, the Country that was attacked used new weapons that were meant to take down Superman. KGBeast is seen dealing with these Politicians and selling them weapons (this is done to cover Lex's tracks). Lex actually causes the accident in the country, that catches Superman's attention. Hoping that the new weapon he made would destroy him, but if it failed he'd make a profit.

"Friendship" with Bruce: Lex and Bruce have become close since Metropolis. They both met, during a fundraiser to help build Metropolis. Much like in Luthor: MoS, they have dinner together in the movie, and Lex tries to manipulate Bruce to get what he wants. He feeds his anger and his fear of Superman, much like with everyone else. Him and Bruce actually talk about that day in Metropolis.

Getting Kryptonite: He acquires a large chunk of Kryptonite. Much like in the movie, he's known about it for a while, but only had a small chunk and it isn't until this point in time that he aquires a big piece and gets it from Eiling.

Creating Doomsday- In the movie it is explained that he was able to reverse engineer the Birthing Matrix and has been able to create Kryptonian beings for a while. He is the only one who can but he's pretended that his scientists haven't been able to do it. Lex actually has created several Bizarros and each one has decayed quickly, as they have short life spans. He is able to use one to frame Superman for crimes. An Easter Egg we'll get is that we see he's trying to create a more perfect clone with Superboy and is seen in a birthing chamber. When fighting this new Bizarro, Superman actually takes him to space and they both tank the Nuclear Bomb, but it mutates Bizarro into becoming Doomsday.

Dealing With a Spy: Sen.Finch sent someone to investigate and uncover what Lex is planning. She dies early on as Lex finds out and sees she has been sending information to Lex. But she also uncovered that Lois and Superman are together, and decides to send it to her to warn her that Lex is trying to frame and kill Superman. She does this because she was someone saved by Superman and she felt like she owed him for that.

Batman

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The Day at Metropolis- We still get that epic moment where we see that Bruce is seeing the events of MoS. It's not just him though, it's other members of the League seeing it on TV and Lex.

The Build Up-Bruce and Clark had encountered each other over the years. Both of them don't trust each other and Clark is constantly showing up Bruce because he finds his methods disturbing. The both know each other's secret identities, and mock each other with the knowledge of doing so.

Investigation- Bruce in this movie knows that Clark is Superman, but has been gathering information from afar. At the point where Clark is found guilty by the government, he investigates to make sure about what's caused these murders and the murders to seem Kryptonian made. So he takes it upon himself to take Superman in. He's been preparing by buying up and learning using Kryptonian weapons and Kryptonite that he takes from Luthor.

Who Wins?- It doesn't matter, either way Lois comes in and stops them giving them the information about Lex's plan.

Bruce Fight Scene- In order to give Bruce a Fight Scene besides the one where he takes on Doomsday, Bruce will be fighting past KGBeast and his goons in order to get more proof of Lex's crimes and at the same time shut down Lex's Clone factory. Beats the goons, but fails to shut off the machine before Clark and Bizarro get nuked.

Tracking The JL- Bruce in this has actually been doing investigation on the members. At the end when Diana tells him about this incoming threat, he says he may be able to help track down other people to fight this incoming threat.

Superman Board

The Superman Board will be dealing with all Superman matters. They are a group of special Government officials who monitor him and discuss matters. The boards is Comprised of key members like

Sen. Finch: Representative of the Senate. She distrusts Lex and is constantly thwarting his clearance on stuff. She is murdered by Lex, but is made to seem like Superman did it. So the remaining members allow Lex clearance to stuff.

Amanda Waller: When Lex comes into the picture, she and him have a one up battle. Each trying to beat the other in a battle of who knows more about the other. They both mutually respect each other. Easter Egg to SS, because Lex knows about it, and taunts her with this knowledge.

General Eiling: The one who has it out the most for Superman and because of this has become closely acquainted with Lex. He'll be taking the role of that dude who gives Lex clearance for stuff.

Calvin Swanwick: Right hand man to the President and on it because he's dealt with Superman the most.

Key Moments

International Incident- In the beginning of the film, they have to deal with a country who is mad that Superman "invaded" their country. They can't go public with it, because Superman saved their citizens. So they want America to deal with it.

Lex Luthor- He pays them a visit with the help of Eiling. He gives them the news that Superman is getting stronger and at some point, no weapon on Earth will be able to stop him.

Wonder Woman

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Visions- She is gonna be the one to know about Darkseid coming. Not Luthor, and not some stupid dream by Batman. She's here to talk to Superman and get him to join the fight. When Superman dies, Batman wants to help her assemble a super team and says he found stuff at Lex Corp (all those video files).

Why She's here- While her reason is to recruit Superman, she comes under the guise of an art dealer and stops some of Lex's goons from stealing a a crate. It becomes a story and Lois goes to interview her. Wonder Woman knows who she is, and tricks Lois into touching her magic Lasso and gets info out of her regarding Superman.

Well, that's all folks. The each character segment are broken down in their actions in chronological order. And I promise that this will be my last blog regarding BvS. Read and comment your thoughts!

92 Comments

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SaintWildcard

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godzilla44

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Really good job, this would definitely would of been a better movie. The only problem I see is WB, that's what I feel is what went wrong with BvS because MOS was divisive they took more creative control of the movie which made it worse. Then did the same to Suicide Squad but even worse. If WB would just let the directors direct we would get better movies just like MOS in my opinion.

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SaintWildcard

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Really good job, this would definitely would of been a better movie. The only problem I see is WB, that's what I feel is what went wrong with BvS because MOS was divisive they took more creative control of the movie which made it worse. Then did the same to Suicide Squad but even worse. If WB would just let the directors direct we would get better movies just like MOS in my opinion.

Thank you, if I had to be critical of myself, I do think it stops focusing on the title though. Because Batman and Superman rarely interact until the final moment. So I may edit in an encounter at some point where Clark disapproves of Bruce's actions and interferes in a fight.

I don't know who to blame more honestly. The studio obviously wanted the focus to be on Batman, so much so that they had to force stuff on him like the dream and Wonder Woman coming to talk to him as opposed to having a real purpose in the movie. But I believe both (studio and Snyder) are at fault since I do think that Snyder wanted to make The Dark KNight Returns and he wanted to do an Injustice MOment. Superman be damned. At this point, I do think that Goyer was probably one of the guys who would have cared about Superman more since in interviews he doesn't seem to care for Batman fighting Superman.

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Mitran

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because it's in the form of a knife that was put in it.

You're such a drama queen.

What I Like:

  • Lex is better
  • No inexplicable Batman visions
  • Superman being a likable guy
  • More comic book characters
  • Potential Superboy (disclaimer though: see the first thing I dislike)

What I Dislike:

  • Using Bizarro and Lex understanding Krypton's technology just like that.
  • Wonder Woman tricking Lois
  • Didn't fix Jimmy
  • Didn't address killing Zod
  • Bruce having no clue about Lex

The rest is alright.

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Jgames

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No you took out Bruce future vision, automatically a down grade, oh wait no Louis sub plot.....god damn I am conflicted. Granted I do like that Batman interact more with Superman considering they only have what two scene together before they fight. I might like the movie, but god damn does it have flaw, also like the doomsday/bizzaro idea. I think the major down fall of the movie is that it felt more like Snyder was given a to do list, instead of making what he wanted which was apparently a Batman movie or just developing Superman. I think the last thing he thought of was making a Batman vs Superman movie, but got stuck with it and honestly did a much better job given what he had to incorporate into the movie, at least for the UC of the movie. So maybe in the Justice League Snyder will be given more control and can make the movie he wants instead of making a movie meant to make a other movie, but I doubted.

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HighAccuser

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It was a very bad muddled, poorly edited, low camera filter mess of a movie with horrible plot points and characterization. I treat it as a satirical comedy on DC material.

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Edited By SaintWildcard

@mitran said:

because it's in the form of a knife that was put in it.

You're such a drama queen.

*pusheen laying on his back gif*

Lex is better

No inexplicable Batman visions

Superman being a likable guy

More comic book characters

Potential Superboy (disclaimer though: see the first thing I dislike)

Yeah, Lex is probably the one that got the most work done, and I'm proud of him the most.

A big problem I had with the movie was the lack of world building and how forced the JL stuff was. So I had to fix that

Using Bizarro and Lex understanding Krypton's technology just like that.

Wonder Woman tricking Lois

Didn't fix Jimmy

Didn't address killing Zod

Bruce having no clue about Lex

Bizarro is meant to symbolize the steps of trial and error for Lex. He doesn't have it mastered and there have been many failures. And to be fair, John Irons is getting the hang of it and there has been all this research by all these different sources. Lex is just smarter than most and has been mostly focused on the Birthing Matrix. Also, it's been like 2 years, so they are bound to be understand it at some point.

Why?

I mean... at least he's not dead for no reason.

I actually had a part about Clark having nightmares and not being able to get sleep because of it. So he's fighting crime even more to kind of make up for it. But I kinda felt like it would have just been a random scene that went nowhere and has no resolve.

Why though? He has no reason to investigate Lex. Lex covers his tracks well and is a good person on the surface who he bonded with over time.

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MAZAHS117

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....

You gotta let this go, I'm starting to get concerned

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SaintWildcard

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Edited By SaintWildcard

@mazahs117 said:

....

You gotta let this go, I'm starting to get concerned

.....

Well, that's all folks. The each character segment are broken down in their actions in chronological order. And I promise that this will be my last blog regarding BvS. Read and comment your thoughts!

Saint Wildcard- 2016
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deactivated-5d731ee5de2e9

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@saintwildcard: why don't u just play superman returns on repeat? Seeing that u prefer a paper thin plot

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cruelwinter

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Thank you man.

And solid write up. I like the ideas of fleshing out the dynamic between Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne by having them met on various occasions, something lacking in the movie. That and Bruce and Lex's partnership wouldn't hurt.

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SaintWildcard

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@jgames said:

No you took out Bruce future vision, automatically a down grade, oh wait no Louis sub plot.....god damn I am conflicted. Granted I do like that Batman interact more with Superman considering they only have what two scene together before they fight. I might like the movie, but god damn does it have flaw, also like the doomsday/bizzaro idea. I think the major down fall of the movie is that it felt more like Snyder was given a to do list, instead of making what he wanted which was apparently a Batman movie or just developing Superman. I think the last thing he thought of was making a Batman vs Superman movie, but got stuck with it and honestly did a much better job given what he had to incorporate into the movie, at least for the UC of the movie. So maybe in the Justice League Snyder will be given more control and can make the movie he wants instead of making a movie meant to make a other movie, but I doubted.

Even with a check list, I just don't think the movie should be this bad (which I think it's just a below average film at best). It wanted to have world building and easter eggs, but they were shitty and nonsensical. And Superman had so many storyline crammed in and was made miserable throughout the movie. To me, there is no way that the studio wanted that unless their plan was to make Superman and Lex look so bad to make Batman look good. YOu'd think after MoS they'd wanna make Superman be a bit happier, but nope. I think both Snyder and the Studio are to blame, since all they cared about was Batman.

It was a very bad muddled, poorly edited, low camera filter mess of a movie with horrible plot points and characterization. I treat it as a satirical comedy on DC material.

Hmmmm.... what's that got to do with this though?

@saintwildcard: why don't u just play superman returns on repeat? Seeing that u prefer a paper thin plot

Or you know... I like character progression, good use of characters and future set up, complex villain plans and a Superman who isn't miserable for the entire movie.

Thank you man.

And solid write up. I like the ideas of fleshing out the dynamic between Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne by having them met on various occasions, something lacking in the movie. That and Bruce and Lex's partnership wouldn't hurt.

That you TAS?

A problem I had with the movie was that in those two years nothing important happened. They left all that in the prequel comics but didn't even hit at it slightly. Atleast MoS kinda did with that empty pod. But in this movie, the only thing that truly happened over those two years is that Lois and CLark moved in together.

I'm just shocked how this movie failed to have Lex and Bruce know eachother. Like... everyone and their mothers probably thought that Lex and Bruce were going to have held a fundraiser to help rebuild Metropolis. Or have Bruce and Clark have interacted at some point, NOPE! It apparently makes more sense to have him interact with Diana and have a few flirty scenes with her. This movie couldnt care less about it's cast interacting with eachother, they were all in their separate corners for like most of the movie.

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cruelwinter

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@saintwildcard:

That you TAS?

A problem I had with the movie was that in those two years nothing important happened. They left all that in the prequel comics but didn't even hit at it slightly. Atleast MoS kinda did with that empty pod. But in this movie, the only thing that truly happened over those two years is that Lois and CLark moved in together.

I'm just shocked how this movie failed to have Lex and Bruce know eachother. Like... everyone and their mothers probably thought that Lex and Bruce were going to have held a fundraiser to help rebuild Metropolis. Or have Bruce and Clark have interacted at some point, NOPE! It apparently makes more sense to have him interact with Diana and have a few flirty scenes with her. This movie couldnt care less about it's cast interacting with eachother, they were all in their separate corners for like most of the movie.

Yes.

Come to think of it, that's where this film suffered the most. There is barely any gravity between Superman and Bats, Lex Luthor and Bruce hardly interact, Wonder Woman barely has any lines, all you get between Clark and Martha is a brief phone call in the extended version of the movie. Without getting off-topic, people like to put down the Marvel films for their "jokes", when the constant banter actually establishes dynamic from character to character.

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@saintwildcard: Honestly only thing sour about Superman was his parent, the character himself was never really that sour to begin with, it just the mood and tone of the story that made it seem like that way. He had the right amount of struggle in the first movie, because they had time for him to be focused. The thing with BvS, is that Superman doesn't have time to digest all this info, it seem like they keep moving the movie. Also this movie needed to introduced the JL, Batman, and have Superman kill and have it be about batman battling Superman, while also introducing future plot. That is a hard task to do, and for the most part aside from Superman they did a decent to a nice job.

That being said yeah Superman got screwed, like why did Superman not investigate the burn bodies, considering he was clearly being framed. Why is it that Superman now cares about Batman, how the hell did Superman found who Bruce was, and why is that one of the best destruction scene in a movie seem to have little effect on Superman. Aside from the cripple guy and Bruce, no one seem really that upset that Superman destroy half of metropolis and then some. SO yeah he was really screwed. While the UC does make Clark more driven to find Batman and made it similar to Clark trying to find the space craft, the fact that he is not investigating the burn body in Africa and instead have Louis do it seem to be the biggest problem. If they would had just gotten ridden of Lex, Superman would be able to 100% focus and have a reason to investigate batman and no Louis bullet sub plot.

Actually that one thing we can 100% agree the Louis sub plot was stupid, she was stupid and her role was literally damsel in distress.

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Edited By Outside_85

Eh... so the solution to the problem of Lex in BvS is to make him worse?

  • Playing all sides: I dont get that one, he already was. Plus I am not sure turning his motivation from avenging his own childhood trauma's to simple greed is a good move.
  • Friendship with Bruce: I am not sure what the aim of this is. If it's to manipulate him, it seems like he managed that pretty well by exploiting that this Bruce is a borderline crackpot that flies off the rails at the mention of his parents murder.
  • Doomsday: Honestly I think this sound both overly complicated and far too fan-service heavy. Like in BvS, the only reason no one has done what Lex did was because he was the only one smart enough to bring Zod's fingerprints (or DNA more likely) to a sealed door, the rest was waiting inside for him to use... including the recipe to make a Kryptonian monster. Had all of this been in Lex's own laboratory, then sure, trial and error would have worked... but it wasn't.

Wonder Woman and the visions... up to a point I agree it might have made more sense that she be the one to either recieve the visions or that an oracle sister of hers sends word about it. The problem is that you then have to explain who sent this vision and why did they do so. In the movie as it is, we know why the older Barry shows up, because he's been there and seen whats comming and he needs Batman to know about it sooner than he did in his own timeline. And then we have the Knightmare scene this I think was done to Bruce for the same reason Barry comes to him: Bruce is the one that has to know about this sooner rather than later... plus it has to be said that in comics there has always been a tradition of Batman being one of the last heroes standing whenever a near-future apocolypse is depicted. And then you have the problem of Diana herself where people are going to be asking, why her? Why does it fall to her to be the chosen messenger? Why not Bruce? Clark? Or even Lois? Lex? This could ofc be handled the same way the Avengers were announced in the MCU, where Diana doesn't appear in BvS at all but in the end of the movie appears to Bruce and breaks the bad news... though that again begs the question: why him? why now?

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Eh... so the solution to the problem of Lex in BvS is to make him worse?

  • Playing all sides: I dont get that one, he already was. Plus I am not sure turning his motivation from avenging his own childhood trauma's to simple greed is a good move.
  • Friendship with Bruce: I am not sure what the aim of this is. If it's to manipulate him, it seems like he managed that pretty well by exploiting that this Bruce is a borderline crackpot that flies off the rails at the mention of his parents murder.
  • Doomsday: Honestly I think this sound both overly complicated and far too fan-service heavy. Like in BvS, the only reason no one has done what Lex did was because he was the only one smart enough to bring Zod's fingerprints (or DNA more likely) to a sealed door, the rest was waiting inside for him to use... including the recipe to make a Kryptonian monster. Had all of this been in Lex's own laboratory, then sure, trial and error would have worked... but it wasn't.

-Likewise I don't think making him a snotty brat with Daddy issues made him compelling. And it's not about greed, it's just that he's always got a plan for something. If he can't kill Superman, he'll atleast make money. He still hates Superman, it's just that this shows how smart he is. Something the movie didn't do since most of his plan felt like it was just luck. Not to mention that I think faking the Africa thing bugged me, cus it just showed how little effect Superman had on the world since it had to be faked. By having real international incidents, it feeds into the notion that even people in power are scared of him, as opposed to just citizens.

-I think the entire Bruce thing was just stupid. Like Bruce felt stupid and it never made sense how he just flies off the handle without having the full information. In my alternate, you see that he does investigate him and sees actual "proof" that it was him (I don't even like Batman, but see how I'm respecting the character?). Like even the Reporters were like, "the explotion may have been Superman's doing, but we don't know". And for the point, it builds up the shock when we get the reveal, it shows how smart he is, it fleshes out both these characters, it fills in the gap as to what happened in those two years. It moves both their stories together forward, while at the same time creating dynamics. Bruce for most of this movie was alone and didn't interact with hardly anyone.

-Oh god that was just super dumb of them. In two years, no one thought of it? Which feeds into my problem with the fact that nothing important happened in those two years. It's not some super complicated notion of using DNA, so that doesn't make Lex smart, it just makes them dumb. Lex getting clearance from a General Eiling is better than shoving a Jolly Rancher to get what he wants (and better world building). Him being the one who learns how it works is better than the machine just taking his orders and doing what he wants. That is what makes Lex a smart character. I kinda agree that Bizarro turning into Doomsday is kinda fan service-y, but I think it's better than Lex in his moment of desperation creating a monster thinking it wouldn't kill him and not being cautious with it. I would also say it's more convenient than complicated.

As for Zod's body, that was just a huge plot hole. I get that he was a dick, but why didn't Clark bury him or something? I feel like that's something he'd do as a Christian and to somewhat honor the dead and ease his conscience

Wonder Woman and the visions... up to a point I agree it might have made more sense that she be the one to either recieve the visions or that an oracle sister of hers sends word about it. The problem is that you then have to explain who sent this vision and why did they do so. In the movie as it is, we know why the older Barry shows up, because he's been there and seen whats comming and he needs Batman to know about it sooner than he did in his own timeline. And then we have the Knightmare scene this I think was done to Bruce for the same reason Barry comes to him: Bruce is the one that has to know about this sooner rather than later... plus it has to be said that in comics there has always been a tradition of Batman being one of the last heroes standing whenever a near-future apocolypse is depicted. And then you have the problem of Diana herself where people are going to be asking, why her? Why does it fall to her to be the chosen messenger? Why not Bruce? Clark? Or even Lois? Lex? This could ofc be handled the same way the Avengers were announced in the MCU, where Diana doesn't appear in BvS at all but in the end of the movie appears to Bruce and breaks the bad news... though that again begs the question: why him? why now?

But it's all set up for a future movie. Arguably, either of these versions takes away from the movie. The point of this movie is Batman to fight Superman, this future vision is just an awkward vision of something that may never even happen now since BvS was so harmful to Superman that they wanna do an MoS 2 to fix him. But the thing that can't be argued is that it benefits Wonder Woman more and it makes her coming back more important, She says so herself that she left mans world, but she comes back for a photo? It's just stupid. As for Bruce having to know sooner, that doesn't play out in the movie at all. He just takes it as a weird dream about Superman. He doesn't take it as Darkseid coming or anything. It was a vague weird dream that was an easter egg about Darkseid, and that was it. Lex's was the only true warning, and even then I have problems with the logistics of the Kryptonian ship knowing about it.

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Outside_85

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@outside_85 said:

Eh... so the solution to the problem of Lex in BvS is to make him worse?

  • Playing all sides: I dont get that one, he already was. Plus I am not sure turning his motivation from avenging his own childhood trauma's to simple greed is a good move.
  • Friendship with Bruce: I am not sure what the aim of this is. If it's to manipulate him, it seems like he managed that pretty well by exploiting that this Bruce is a borderline crackpot that flies off the rails at the mention of his parents murder.
  • Doomsday: Honestly I think this sound both overly complicated and far too fan-service heavy. Like in BvS, the only reason no one has done what Lex did was because he was the only one smart enough to bring Zod's fingerprints (or DNA more likely) to a sealed door, the rest was waiting inside for him to use... including the recipe to make a Kryptonian monster. Had all of this been in Lex's own laboratory, then sure, trial and error would have worked... but it wasn't.

1. Likewise I don't think making him a snotty brat with Daddy issues made him compelling. And it's not about greed, it's just that he's always got a plan for something. If he can't kill Superman, he'll atleast make money. He still hates Superman, it's just that this shows how smart he is. Something the movie didn't do since most of his plan felt like it was just luck. Not to mention that I think faking the Africa thing bugged me, cus it just showed how little effect Superman had on the world since it had to be faked. By having real international incidents, it feeds into the notion that even people in power are scared of him, as opposed to just citizens.

2. I think the entire Bruce thing was just stupid. Like Bruce felt stupid and it never made sense how he just flies off the handle without having the full information. In my alternate, you see that he does investigate him and sees actual "proof" that it was him (I don't even like Batman, but see how I'm respecting the character?). Like even the Reporters were like, "the explotion may have been Superman's doing, but we don't know". And for the point, it builds up the shock when we get the reveal, it shows how smart he is, it fleshes out both these characters, it fills in the gap as to what happened in those two years. It moves both their stories together forward, while at the same time creating dynamics. Bruce for most of this movie was alone and didn't interact with hardly anyone.

3. Oh god that was just super dumb of them. In two years, no one thought of it? Which feeds into my problem with the fact that nothing important happened in those two years. It's not some super complicated notion of using DNA, so that doesn't make Lex smart, it just makes them dumb. Lex getting clearance from a General Eiling is better than shoving a Jolly Rancher to get what he wants (and better world building). Him being the one who learns how it works is better than the machine just taking his orders and doing what he wants. That is what makes Lex a smart character. I kinda agree that Bizarro turning into Doomsday is kinda fan service-y, but I think it's better than Lex in his moment of desperation creating a monster thinking it wouldn't kill him and not being cautious with it. I would also say it's more convenient than complicated.

4. As for Zod's body, that was just a huge plot hole. I get that he was a dick, but why didn't Clark bury him or something? I feel like that's something he'd do as a Christian and to somewhat honor the dead and ease his conscience

Wonder Woman and the visions... up to a point I agree it might have made more sense that she be the one to either recieve the visions or that an oracle sister of hers sends word about it. The problem is that you then have to explain who sent this vision and why did they do so. In the movie as it is, we know why the older Barry shows up, because he's been there and seen whats comming and he needs Batman to know about it sooner than he did in his own timeline. And then we have the Knightmare scene this I think was done to Bruce for the same reason Barry comes to him: Bruce is the one that has to know about this sooner rather than later... plus it has to be said that in comics there has always been a tradition of Batman being one of the last heroes standing whenever a near-future apocolypse is depicted. And then you have the problem of Diana herself where people are going to be asking, why her? Why does it fall to her to be the chosen messenger? Why not Bruce? Clark? Or even Lois? Lex? This could ofc be handled the same way the Avengers were announced in the MCU, where Diana doesn't appear in BvS at all but in the end of the movie appears to Bruce and breaks the bad news... though that again begs the question: why him? why now?

5. But it's all set up for a future movie. Arguably, either of these versions takes away from the movie. The point of this movie is Batman to fight Superman, this future vision is just an awkward vision of something that may never even happen now since BvS was so harmful to Superman that they wanna do an MoS 2 to fix him. But the thing that can't be argued is that it benefits Wonder Woman more and it makes her coming back more important, She says so herself that she left mans world, but she comes back for a photo? It's just stupid. As for Bruce having to know sooner, that doesn't play out in the movie at all. He just takes it as a weird dream about Superman. He doesn't take it as Darkseid coming or anything. It was a vague weird dream that was an easter egg about Darkseid, and that was it. Lex's was the only true warning, and even then I have problems with the logistics of the Kryptonian ship knowing about it.

1. I have to admit that a Lex Luthor that cares about money is just not Lex Luthor to me. This is a guy who pours billions of dollars into the black hole of project 'kill Superman' without a thought about the monetary aspect of it, and this is consistently been part of his character whenever he shows up, so why should he all of a sudden give a hoot about making a few millions on a single 'once in a lifetime' projects when he pulls in that kind of money every other minute? I'm curious however about how you think most of what Lex did was down to luck, when it was pretty clear Lex was just so far into everyone's heads (save the senator) that he knew exactly where and when to push to get the responses he wanted. I am not sure what you found was fake about the Africa bit... the civil war there was real, the rebel commander was real. What Lex did though KGBeast was create the illusion that Superman had been on a rampage, the villagers had never seen him before, he threatened the woman who went to testify (and later killed her), and he knew full well that the CIA would not release pictures of this place or even admit they were in the area to the public.

2. I like to take a line out of Batman Begins: "A guy who dresses up like a bat clearly has issues." And this is what this Batman has, issues, major ones, they are perhaps greater than ever before, but the issues Batfleck has are the same as they have always been. And seriously, how many times has the Joker remarked how equally insane Batman is for doing what he is doing? Do you believe thats just empty talk?

3. Consider the fact that up to the point that Lex does it, no one has actually been able to penetrate Zod's skin, so you'd actually have to drag his corpse to that door in order to get access. And yes, making the army look dumb... thats sort of a theme in comics, heroes and villains are normally smarter than people in uniform who believe every problem can be solved by shooting at it. I dont know why Eiling needs to be wrapped into this? Being a general does not give you the keys to the kingdom, being a high-ranking politician overseeing this specific area however... (Aside that General Lane would be better candidate.) Maybe, but Lex learning about Krypton, its technology and so on from an archive is not new. What makes Lex smart in BvS is the amount of knowledge he has on everyone and how good he is at manipulating them, on top of this he is smart enough to know that in order to kill Superman, he is either going to need to put kryptonite in the hands of Batman and then find a Kryptonian weapon to get the job done as a backup-plan. And Lex isn't desperate in BvS, he is driven and focused on what he wants. In fact he is very much like Morrisons All-Star Lex, who happily would take a seat in the electric chair knowing that he had killed Superman. It's complicated and yet oversimplifying the fact that you are asking Lex to clone a completely alien lifeform from scratch in the span of 18 months... even less so because he would still have to pry it from the authorities hands.

4. He could have... but whats stopping the government from just digging Zod back up once the funeral is over? For that matter, why are we to assume that the government is just going to let him take Zod away? But perhaps more importantly... why should Superman at the end of MoS fear what the scientist could learn from Zod? When nothing on Earth could get past his skin? (you can swab his mouth for DNA, you can take X-rays and you can even probe him... but thats about all you can do with an indestructible corpse) If I were Superman, I'd be more worried about the ship parts left all over the place.

5. I think you have to look outside of the movie setup... Batman fights Superman is the story of BvS, but there is an actual world around them thats moving in it's own pace and goals that aren't connected at all to the Bat and the Boy in Blue having a fight. that it takes away from the movie is only true if you stick to the old view of every movie being it's own little universe and the characters in them are the most important people in the world, Marvel and now DC are moving beyond that, Superman and Batman are important in this movie, but meanwhile other characters are moving around off screen doing their thing. And no, the vision is a tie into to the Justice League movie that began filming a week after BvS was released, and MoS 2 was always in the cards. And Diana is coming back, out of retirement from a life she left behind, it's just not her thats the harbringer, she gets involved with it because she isn't about to have her retirement ruined by Lex exposing her as a centuries old warrior. By the funeral scene, it's pretty damn clear Bruce knows something is brewing. And look at it this way, Bruce is the detective, he is the expert in seeing clues and connections where others dont... you dont think he connects the dots that he all of a sudden has weird dreams then 10 minutes later realizes he's been talking to a centuries old woman without even knowing it and that there are more of them out there? no, he does not know about Darkseid, neither does Lex, both of them knows however that something is coming. The Kryptonian ship knowing about the New Gods should not be a mystery to anyone, the archive itself said it contained the knowledge of a hundred thousand worlds... what are the chances that the vast Kryptonian empire did not at one point or another run into New Gods when we now know they were fought, on Earth, by Atlanteans, Amazons and humans? As for how the ship knew after being buried for, what? 18000 years? It could be a simple file update from the 'usb' stick that contained Jor-El's imprint, perhaps further argumented when Zod entered his. And who knows, perhaps the New Gods was the reason the Kyptonians withdrew back to Krypton? Jor-El never mentioned why the space-program was abandoned, so perhaps they did so to avoid being preyed upon by Darkseid?

As for why the New gods are coming now... well that likely has more to do with Silas Stone activating the Mother Box than anything Lex, Batman or Superman was doing... like I said, there is a world around BvS thats moving in its own pace.

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1. I have to admit that a Lex Luthor that cares about money is just not Lex Luthor to me. This is a guy who pours billions of dollars into the black hole of project 'kill Superman' without a thought about the monetary aspect of it, and this is consistently been part of his character whenever he shows up, so why should he all of a sudden give a hoot about making a few millions on a single 'once in a lifetime' projects when he pulls in that kind of money every other minute? I'm curious however about how you think most of what Lex did was down to luck, when it was pretty clear Lex was just so far into everyone's heads (save the senator) that he knew exactly where and when to push to get the responses he wanted. I am not sure what you found was fake about the Africa bit... the civil war there was real, the rebel commander was real. What Lex did though KGBeast was create the illusion that Superman had been on a rampage, the villagers had never seen him before, he threatened the woman who went to testify (and later killed her), and he knew full well that the CIA would not release pictures of this place or even admit they were in the area to the public.

1-And a Lex who makes dumb moves and is reckless is not Lex Luthor to me. It's about gaining power and slowly seeing what works and what doesn't work while at the same time showing that he has back up plans for everything. He's just a man, and it's all part of the long game (Like in Red Son). What I mean by faking an international incident is that the country thinking it was Superman had to be faked And also if was of no real consequence to Superman and had no effect on him. As far as we know, Superman only really went to the senate cus of the guy in the wheel chair and that showed how screwed their perspective. International Incident? Whatever. Cripple from 2 years ago? I'll be right there Senate!

2. I like to take a line out of Batman Begins: "A guy who dresses up like a bat clearly has issues." And this is what this Batman has, issues, major ones, they are perhaps greater than ever before, but the issues Batfleck has are the same as they have always been. And seriously, how many times has the Joker remarked how equally insane Batman is for doing what he is doing? Do you believe thats just empty talk?

Yeah.... I suppose just saying he's crazy makes up for this Batman being so dumb..... cus that's exactly how he is in the comics.... I'm being sarcastic here. That's a stretch and arguably bad writing to chalk it up to him being crazy. The whole notes thing at the exact moment the senate blows up to me was just such a stretch and dumb reason for doing it. Like it made no sense to me. This also adds onto why I think Lex's plan is based entirely on luck. He's guessing that it would work, atleast if they are in the same room, he can read cues and lie to his face. But he's just like "sending him these letters may work at this exact moment", or "he'll show up in court cus of some dude in a wheelchair despite never doing so over the years". It was lucky guesses as opposed to actual skill, complete total baseless leaps. It worked because the movie said so.

3. Consider the fact that up to the point that Lex does it, no one has actually been able to penetrate Zod's skin, so you'd actually have to drag his corpse to that door in order to get access. And yes, making the army look dumb... thats sort of a theme in comics, heroes and villains are normally smarter than people in uniform who believe every problem can be solved by shooting at it. I dont know why Eiling needs to be wrapped into this? Being a general does not give you the keys to the kingdom, being a high-ranking politician overseeing this specific area however... (Aside that General Lane would be better candidate.) Maybe, but Lex learning about Krypton, its technology and so on from an archive is not new. What makes Lex smart in BvS is the amount of knowledge he has on everyone and how good he is at manipulating them, on top of this he is smart enough to know that in order to kill Superman, he is either going to need to put kryptonite in the hands of Batman and then find a Kryptonian weapon to get the job done as a backup-plan. And Lex isn't desperate in BvS, he is driven and focused on what he wants. In fact he is very much like Morrisons All-Star Lex, who happily would take a seat in the electric chair knowing that he had killed Superman. It's complicated and yet oversimplifying the fact that you are asking Lex to clone a completely alien lifeform from scratch in the span of 18 months... even less so because he would still have to pry it from the authorities hands.

...... Yeah, I suppose these scientist with their tons of tools and with soldiers couldn't do that. Writing the world around him dumber to make him the smart one is a lazy way of writing it. Especially since within two years no on thought of it. This isn't like MoS where Superman was reckless in his first fight cus he's never done it before, this is the scientists literally not figuring out that the square peg goes into the square hole. It also adds to my anger over how nothing important happened over those two years. No progress was made and Lex's plan was very basic and didn't highlight his genius. He found Kryptonite.... So? He made created Doomsday, but only because the Birthing Matrix took his orders. It's just him saying "I wish for a monster". Human kind having made some progress with the technology via Bruce, Steel and Lex shows that. Remember when we all thought Bruce was going to make his Battle Suit out of Kryptonian Technology.... that would have been cool to be in the movie.

Except he didn't take the electric chair willingly and had a back up plan so that while Superman was weak and dying he would take over the world.

4. He could have... but whats stopping the government from just digging Zod back up once the funeral is over? For that matter, why are we to assume that the government is just going to let him take Zod away? But perhaps more importantly... why should Superman at the end of MoS fear what the scientist could learn from Zod? When nothing on Earth could get past his skin? (you can swab his mouth for DNA, you can take X-rays and you can even probe him... but thats about all you can do with an indestructible corpse) If I were Superman, I'd be more worried about the ship parts left all over the place.

... the same thing that's stopped them from knowing who Clark is all these years? Actually, I do touch on that. He can't take the ship since it's too big and the Government called Dibs, but you see him taking weapons being used by people during the time of the film.

5. I think you have to look outside of the movie setup... Batman fights Superman is the story of BvS, but there is an actual world around them thats moving in it's own pace and goals that aren't connected at all to the Bat and the Boy in Blue having a fight. that it takes away from the movie is only true if you stick to the old view of every movie being it's own little universe and the characters in them are the most important people in the world, Marvel and now DC are moving beyond that, Superman and Batman are important in this movie, but meanwhile other characters are moving around off screen doing their thing. And no, the vision is a tie into to the Justice League movie that began filming a week after BvS was released, and MoS 2 was always in the cards. And Diana is coming back, out of retirement from a life she left behind, it's just not her thats the harbringer, she gets involved with it because she isn't about to have her retirement ruined by Lex exposing her as a centuries old warrior. By the funeral scene, it's pretty damn clear Bruce knows something is brewing. And look at it this way, Bruce is the detective, he is the expert in seeing clues and connections where others dont... you dont think he connects the dots that he all of a sudden has weird dreams then 10 minutes later realizes he's been talking to a centuries old woman without even knowing it and that there are more of them out there? no, he does not know about Darkseid, neither does Lex, both of them knows however that something is coming. The Kryptonian ship knowing about the New Gods should not be a mystery to anyone, the archive itself said it contained the knowledge of a hundred thousand worlds... what are the chances that the vast Kryptonian empire did not at one point or another run into New Gods when we now know they were fought, on Earth, by Atlanteans, Amazons and humans? As for how the ship knew after being buried for, what? 18000 years? It could be a simple file update from the 'usb' stick that contained Jor-El's imprint, perhaps further argumented when Zod entered his. And who knows, perhaps the New Gods was the reason the Kyptonians withdrew back to Krypton? Jor-El never mentioned why the space-program was abandoned, so perhaps they did so to avoid being preyed upon by Darkseid?

As for why the New gods are coming now... well that likely has more to do with Silas Stone activating the Mother Box than anything Lex, Batman or Superman was doing... like I said, there is a world around BvS thats moving in its own pace.

So... somehow.... someway, Diana knows about this picture (which by the way,it's on a file so there is no getting rid of it nor does the movie actually do it), from her Island disconnected from man?

All I have to go off, is why MoS 2 is happening. Before that, MoS 2 was pretty much shelved (rumors were saying as such that i wasn't on the table at the time) and all we heard about was the New Batman movie. Johns pretty much said that the intent of MoS 2 is to fix Superman, so me thinks that having Superman have some stupid Injustice scenario, which is why I think this whole Knightmare scene and Superman's involvement will probably be ignored from now on, (not the Darkseid stuff). Since making Superman the bad guy will only be worse for the character. Only way it could get worse is if they raped him on screen.

The thing you said about Bruce become inconstant with the movie then. One minute he'll try to kill Superman based on no information (even the reporters were like, we don't know), but now you're will to accept that he connected a random dream and Lex's words?

Everything you said about the world around them moving is why Wonder Woman should have had the role of doing it..... like the exact reason. YOu first argued that it wouldn't make sense, and now you're saying that it makes sense for the world around them to move simultaneously with the movie. Pick a side hombre

Thing is, that what Lex saw was an exact representation of what happened on Earth. Well, the 3 mother boxes. I can't debate you on what may happen in JL, since I atleast think they will try to make some sense of their bullshit, but either the 3 Mother Boxes is a signature trojan horse by Darkseid, or it was something that happened on Earth and somehow the ship knows. Which if the latter, that's dumb.

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Gratzi. What did you like most and (to not seem arrogant) what didn't you like?

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@saintwildcard: dude, wonderwoman has been living among men for the past 100 years she just hasn't been in war alongside them. U should really pay attention before criticizing a movie. Ur entire post in response to outside85 is nonsense

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Edited By SaintWildcard

@saintwildcard: dude, wonderwoman has been living among men for the past 100 years she just hasn't been in war alongside them. U should really pay attention before criticizing a movie

Wonder WOman left mans world 100 years ago. You pay attention to the movie.

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@saintwildcard: if u noticed, she's an art dealer now nd lex also had modern pictures of her which is why he knew she was metahuman. Pay attention!! They even show her at an ATM. I mean if u don't like the movie its cool. Saying it didn't deliver all its plot points perfectly is just a lie nd ur just being ignorant. And about the scout ship knowing stuff, the command key updated its database in MoS

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@saintwildcard: if u noticed, she's an art dealer now nd lex also had modern pictures of her which is why he knew she was metahuman. Pay attention!! They even show her at an ATM. I mean if u don't like the movie its cool. Saying it didn't deliver all its plot points perfectly is just a lie nd ur just being ignorant. And about the scout ship knowing stuff, the command key updated its database in MoS

Again, she was looking for a picture and said she left a 100 years ago. That doesn't mean she was gone since the start of the movie. She might have just started looking for the picture a while ago but still be gone only to end up coming back and looking for it. It's not like they were taking pictures of her for decades. The ATM doesn't debunk the 100 years thing.

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@saintwildcard: now ur just being willfully ignorant. why the hell would she need to come back to man's world for a picture? the world just found out about superman nd there's some random picture of her from 1918 floating around. she went looking for the picture because it could expose her identity.

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@saintwildcard: now ur just being willfully ignorant. why the hell would she need to come back to man's world for a picture? the world just found out about superman nd there's some random picture of her from 1918 floating around. she went looking for the picture because it could expose her identity.

That's what I asked myself every day.... because that's how it's set up in the movie. YOu're making leaps and the movie never tried to clarify why she came back. We just know she was gone.... and now she's looking for a picture. That's it, there is no inbetween and she never once said she came back because of Superman. THat actually would have been a good reason, but the decided thatt developing any character besides Batman was a waste of time. If her SID is screwed because of an old picture, then Superman wouldn't last very long. And it's from a long time ago, people don't really think that Nicolas Cage is a time traveler because someone from the past looks like him.

Besides, it doesn't change the fact that my suggestion is better and makes her character more important as opposed to some flirty BM/WW moments and looking for a picture, which by the way, she found a digital copy. YOu can't get rid of that shit anymore. Maybe if there was only one copy, maybe it would work. But she's screwed anyway.

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@saintwildcard: honestly everything I liked but if I had too pick.

Favorite was your overall handilng of Clark.

Least favorite? Probably bizzaro turning into doomsday but I'd be up for it I'd just rather him stay bizzaro

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@saintwildcard: she didn't come back for anything. She already had a life in man's world as an art dealer. exposing her identity will impede that. How do u not get that?

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@saintwildcard: she didn't come back for anything. She already had a life in man's world as an art dealer. exposing her identity will impede that. How do u not get that?

Movie: "I left mans world"

Me: Why did she come back?

Movie-......

Dude.... an old picture of her wouldn't expose her identity. People wouldn't be like"Oh my god! It's you!". Bruce did, but that's cus he know's she was after it for that reason. Remember in the JL animated series when Vandal Savage meets the JL again in modern time? All he had to say was that he was a descendant and everyone calmed down. It would destroy the suspension of disbelief if the movie actually claimed that an old picture of her would destroy her SID, but Superman and Clark Kent can keep existing.

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@saintwildcard: I don't like arguing about BvS bc well is an okay, is not Watchemen. That being said a giant monster destroying a city with her close by, look more like she just wanted to help out because thats the right thing to do rather then humanity needs me. I mean is like Superman asking Bat for help, he might be an anti hero, but he still a hero (even though he can't finish his sentence because they need Superman to fight Batman even thought it would not take that long to explain). Also because they nerd to make Justice League, I mean thats the real reason, but her helping out doesn't seem out of character for a character we only seen for 10 minutes.

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1.1 And a Lex who makes dumb moves and is reckless is not Lex Luthor to me. It's about gaining power and slowly seeing what works and what doesn't work while at the same time showing that he has back up plans for everything. He's just a man, and it's all part of the long game (Like in Red Son). 1.2 What I mean by faking an international incident is that the country thinking it was Superman had to be faked. 1.3 And also if was of no real consequence to Superman and had no effect on him. 1.4 As far as we know, Superman only really went to the senate cus of the guy in the wheel chair and that showed how screwed their perspective. International Incident? Whatever. Cripple from 2 years ago? I'll be right there Senate!

2.1 Yeah.... I suppose just saying he's crazy makes up for this Batman being so dumb..... cus that's exactly how he is in the comics.... I'm being sarcastic here. That's a stretch and arguably bad writing to chalk it up to him being crazy. The whole notes thing at the exact moment the senate blows up to me was just such a stretch and dumb reason for doing it. Like it made no sense to me. This also adds onto why I think Lex's plan is based entirely on luck. 2.2 He's guessing that it would work, atleast if they are in the same room, he can read cues and lie to his face. But he's just like "sending him these letters may work at this exact moment", or "he'll show up in court cus of some dude in a wheelchair despite never doing so over the years". It was lucky guesses as opposed to actual skill, complete total baseless leaps. 2.3 It worked because the movie said so.

3.1..... Yeah, I suppose these scientist with their tons of tools and with soldiers couldn't do that. Writing the world around him dumber to make him the smart one is a lazy way of writing it. Especially since within two years no on thought of it. 3.2 This isn't like MoS where Superman was reckless in his first fight cus he's never done it before, this is the scientists literally not figuring out that the square peg goes into the square hole. 3.3 It also adds to my anger over how nothing important happened over those two years. No progress was made and Lex's plan was very basic and didn't highlight his genius. He found Kryptonite.... So? 3.4 He made created Doomsday, but only because the Birthing Matrix took his orders. It's just him saying "I wish for a monster". 3.5 Human kind having made some progress with the technology via Bruce, Steel and Lex shows that. Remember when we all thought Bruce was going to make his Battle Suit out of Kryptonian Technology.... that would have been cool to be in the movie.

3.6 Except he didn't take the electric chair willingly and had a back up plan so that while Superman was weak and dying he would take over the world.

4.1... the same thing that's stopped them from knowing who Clark is all these years? Actually, I do touch on that. 4.2 He can't take the ship since it's too big and the Government called Dibs, 4.3 but you see him taking weapons being used by people during the time of the film.

5.1 So... somehow.... someway, Diana knows about this picture (which by the way,it's on a file so there is no getting rid of it nor does the movie actually do it), from her Island disconnected from man?

6.1 All I have to go off, is why MoS 2 is happening. Before that, MoS 2 was pretty much shelved (rumors were saying as such that i wasn't on the table at the time) and all we heard about was the New Batman movie. 6.2 Johns pretty much said that the intent of MoS 2 is to fix Superman, so me thinks that having Superman have some stupid Injustice scenario, which is why I think this whole Knightmare scene and Superman's involvement will probably be ignored from now on, (not the Darkseid stuff). Since making Superman the bad guy will only be worse for the character. Only way it could get worse is if they raped him on screen.

7.1 The thing you said about Bruce become inconstant with the movie then. One minute he'll try to kill Superman based on no information (even the reporters were like, we don't know), but now you're will to accept that he connected a random dream and Lex's words?

8.1 Everything you said about the world around them moving is why Wonder Woman should have had the role of doing it..... like the exact reason. YOu first argued that it wouldn't make sense, and now you're saying that it makes sense for the world around them to move simultaneously with the movie. Pick a side hombre

9.1 Thing is, that what Lex saw was an exact representation of what happened on Earth. Well, the 3 mother boxes. I can't debate you on what may happen in JL, since I atleast think they will try to make some sense of their bullshit, but either the 3 Mother Boxes is a signature trojan horse by Darkseid, or it was something that happened on Earth and somehow the ship knows. Which if the latter, that's dumb.

1.1 I have to disagree with that notion, because the Lex that consistently appears in comics does not do things in a 'trail and error' fashion save for his attempts at beating Superman, every other venture he engages in he usually succeeds on the first go. Like he did in Morrisons Action Comics, like he did in Superboy. Also he is not about gaining power, he already believes he is the pinnacle of humanity, all he wants is for everyone to recognize him as such. As for backup plans... yeah Lex had tons of those in BvS. 1.2 You mean the response from the woman? Thats because the people Lex aimed to fool with all of this was not some african peasant village but the US Government and population, and he succeeded. 1.3 I wasn't directly aimed at Superman, but his reputation, it was meant to discredit him in the public eye and soften the politicians so Lex could get the import license for his rock. 1.4 It seems like you missed that Superman actually had quite a bit of doubt whenever he was doing the right thing with what he was doing throughout most of the movie, why he went to the Senate was not just to confront Wally, but because he chose to be 'their monument' as Matha called him, but not just a being that flew around a saved people without anyone getting to know what he stands for.

2.1 You may want to remember that Bruce is deeply traumatized by what he saw, and in this world the trauma has taken the shape of the kind of reaction that real war veterans have, you know the ones where they see something or hear something and despite having been home for 5 years they react like they were back in the warzone. 2.2 It's not luck if Lex knows exactly how people are going to react when given the right input. 2.3 It worked because Lex is that smart.

3.1 All the soldiers and tools couldn't even dent Kryptonian body armor, how exactly is some lab coat going to manage? Secondly you are ignoring the massive amount of bureaucracy that exists even in today's system. On group gets to work on the body and another gets to work on the ship, neither of those two are likely to let the others waltz in and test their theories without burying them beneath several tons of papers. 3.2 You do realize a technical engineer is not a biologist? And that neither of them has any real clue to what they are dealing with? 3.3 Well, that's not really true, things did happen, Lex just had his plans on a slow burn until they found enough kryptonite. 3.4 Yeah and he had to go through the data of a hundred thousand worlds in order to find the formula and then do what he does when he needs a new suit, someone killed or framed: let someone else do the hard work. 3.5 That would have been crap. Like do you know how long it takes to develop a jet fighter now a days? And now you think a crashed alien ship is going to make humanity make a century's leap in technology in the span of 2 years?

3.6 Except that Lex also knew the Kryptonian powers were ultimately temporary. So yeah, he went to the chair willingly.

4.1 You mean lack of trying? Since Superman appeared to have convinced Swanwik that it was in everyone's best interest that his identity remained hidden. 4.2 He's Superman and you are telling me the ship is too big? Like the one he dragged across the ice in BvS? And the government gets to call dibs on the ship now and not Zod's body? 4.3 Not that I recall, so I guess the army is having a good look at them as well.

5.1 I think you missed the part that Diana has actually been living in Man's World for a hundred years now, she never went back to Themyscira after the events of her own movie... you know the just repeated 'cannot go back if you leave' hitch that's attached to Paradise Island? Diana knows about the photo because its hers, she was there when it was taken, and someone obviously stole it from her (likely Lex's russian buddy).

6.1 Yeah, like rumors are hard truths, fact is that the only people who know anything for certain are the people WB pays to keep their mouths shut about the matter, everyone else is corridor talk. 6.2 Sigh... the point of the Knightmare sequence is to prevent it from ever happening... why the hell do you think Barry went back through time with a warning for? So everything can happen exactly as it already did? Also I wouldn't put too much faith in Johns ability to fix Superman... since his last 'fix' ultimately killed him.

7.1 Bruce is a human being, he can be cold and calculating one moment but prodding him with his parents death and he goes off the rails like a bull stung by a bee.

8.1 It is actually possible to agree with only certain things you are proposing, and then discarding the rest. Yes, Diana makes more sense to have visions because she is connected to magic... but it makes no sense in the movie unless you want her to completely ape Nicky Fury's part in the first Iron Man movie, which will make it an afterthought to her if you also wanted to have her fight Doomsday (and why wouldn't you?). But then again, it makes far more sense for future Barry to go to Bruce, because he is the one that's going to figure it out and because it was the exact same thing Barry did in COIE, or tried to before he was reduced to a skeleton.

9.1 Allow me to return to MoS with you then. Ok, the scout ship, now in Metropolis, was buried under the ice in Canada for nearly 20.000 years, yes? The ship evidently crashed and some of the systems were damaged, like the life support for the crew, but much of it remained fully functional, for 20.000 years. Zod was able, from across the gulf of space, to pick up a signal from the ship once Clark entered the key-stick. Is it, in our world of wi-fi and bluetooth, impossible to imagine the scoutship was actually still getting data from Krypton while it lay buried and that the systems just auto-updated when there were any to be had? Like while the ship was entombed in the ice, the Kryptonian expansion era came to a sudden halt for some reason, that reason might as well have been the New Gods and that there were a Kryptonian observer of somekind to the events on Earth. (I think the Motherboxes are the kind of McGuffin that back in the day kicked Darkseid off planet Earth and remains incapable of returning before they are brought back together.)

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Even though I really liked the Ult cut...this is a much better movie than what we got.

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This honestly seems like bad fan fiction. I wasn't impressed by BvS by any means, but i'm not feeling this either.

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Oh, another viner that never studied/worked on cinema that thinks that can do better than Snyder/WB, great!

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@wbr17: that's actually what I'm majoring in college. Story telling and whatnot

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Transformers1024

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@wbr17: Youre not missing out, the OP is notorious for rambling on about the "greatness" of Man of Steel and how much BvS utterly destroyed him as a person to the point of near depression. And I swear to god the users mental state is going to explode when JL is released.

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@saintwildcard: You spam the site with the same two topics and I'm the troll? Okay, guy.

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SaintWildcard

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@transformers1024: hardly call two blogs in the span of a month,spamming. Learn the rules dude

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@saintwildcard said:

@transformers1024: hardly call two blogs in the span of a month,spamming. Learn the rules dude

@saintwildcard: And those Congratulations Man of Steel thread was made because of two posts? Hell no. And those countless arguments with well respected Superman fans like @lvenger and @squalleon just constantly feed the fire.

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Jgames

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Let just agree that Batman was awsome... wait there people who hated him HOW? Okay let agree Superman wasn't great, wait WHAT, people still like, well whatever let agree that WW was, wait skinny is a minus wtf, okay Lex actually no got nothing ummmm. Louis was just there to be a damsel in distress and isn't a great chatacter in this movie, can we at least agree on that please.

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@saintwildcard: And those Congratulations Man of Steel thread was made because of two posts? Hell no. And those countless arguments with well respected Superman fans like @lvenger and @squalleon just constantly feed the fire.

You mean a thread I made like a year ago? Also I don't think you understand the rules of spamming on this site. .... I have information counter to that lame statement, but I just don't wanna be mean.

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Such contrasting responses, heh

@lukehero said:

Even though I really liked the Ult cut...this is a much better movie than what we got.

Thanks. Favorite and Least favorite part?

This honestly seems like bad fan fiction. I wasn't impressed by BvS by any means, but i'm not feeling this either.

Hmmm, my own sort of standards for what I could call fan fic might differ but I tend to think as fan fic writing as just writing cool shit and not really trying to develop or explain why. Kinda like Darseid War. I think that I tried to set things up within the barriers of the movie for the most part and fleshed out the world which was pretty baron in the movie while also developing the characters while still getting what they were going for. But that's just me, could you try and explain what feels fan fic-y to you? I'm all for constructive Criticism.

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@saintwildcard

> Using Bizarro and Lex understanding Krypton's technology just like that.

Bizarro is meant to symbolize the steps of trial and error for Lex. He doesn't have it mastered and there have been many failures. And to be fair, John Irons is getting the hang of it and there has been all this research by all these different sources. Lex is just smarter than most and has been mostly focused on the Birthing Matrix. Also, it's been like 2 years, so they are bound to be understand it at some point.

I don't like the idea of Bizarro in the movie at all. Before you ask why: I just don't think he fits, at all. As far as understanding the matrix, it's too important to not show him figuring out. Basic tinkering and replication is fine, but the matrix is too big a deal to gloss over. It's the same reason they couldn't start BvS with Lex already possessing the giant chunk of kryptonite. You can't just ignore a major plot point like that. I mean, and that's without the initial problem of where he gets Superman's DNA to begin with - that's something that would absolutely need to be shown, or else it's implied that it's super easy to obtain.

> Wonder Woman tricking Lois

Why?

It's too cloak and dagger for Diana. And using it against Lois' will or knowledge, without it being an urgent matter, doesn't sit well with me. I'd prefer if she were upfront about things she could ask without Lois getting suspicious, and used her head for the rest.

> Didn't fix Jimmy

I mean... at least he's not dead for no reason.

Good, but not good enough. Put him in, and done well.

> Didn't address killing Zod

I actually had a part about Clark having nightmares and not being able to get sleep because of it. So he's fighting crime even more to kind of make up for it. But I kinda felt like it would have just been a random scene that went nowhere and has no resolve.

It doesn't have to be only Clark. Have other people bring it up - the council that's about him, or Bruce, or Lex. Have Clark talk through it or better yet, show through actions that he feels remorse for it and has grown from it. And make sure everyone in the movie knows that by the end.

> Bruce having no clue about Lex

Why though? He has no reason to investigate Lex. Lex covers his tracks well and is a good person on the surface who he bonded with over time.

He doesn't need to have been investigating, but not having any idea about Lex makes him look foolish and naive. It takes more than "covers tracks well" to make it believable that Lex can fool Batman.

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mickey-mouse

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@saintwildcard:

Thanks. Favorite and Least favorite part?

How Doomsday is made. Makes lex seem more competent than to create an uncontrollable monster on purpose. That was my favorite part. Where they both survive the nuke and it mutants Bizarro into Doomsday.

Least Favorite: Killing Sen Finch and Killing Superman...neither is necessary. Especially killing Supes...I mean there is no way they would ever perma kill him this early, so why bother? By not killing him it opens the door to actually do a proper death of superman type story.

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The dinner scene from Luthor: Man of Steel would've been a nice touch.

Maybe Lex can't completely fool Batman, but Batman would agree that Superman is a threat regardless.

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incursion2

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I wanna see this movie lol

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DemFeetTho

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needs more Black Panther.

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@mitran said:

I don't like the idea of Bizarro in the movie at all. Before you ask why: I just don't think he fits, at all. As far as understanding the matrix, it's too important to not show him figuring out. Basic tinkering and replication is fine, but the matrix is too big a deal to gloss over. It's the same reason they couldn't start BvS with Lex already possessing the giant chunk of kryptonite. You can't just ignore a major plot point like that. I mean, and that's without the initial problem of where he gets Superman's DNA to begin with - that's something that would absolutely need to be shown, or else it's implied that it's super easy to obtain.

It's too cloak and dagger for Diana. And using it against Lois' will or knowledge, without it being an urgent matter, doesn't sit well with me. I'd prefer if she were upfront about things she could ask without Lois getting suspicious, and used her head for the rest.

Good, but not good enough. Put him in, and done well.

It doesn't have to be only Clark. Have other people bring it up - the council that's about him, or Bruce, or Lex. Have Clark talk through it or better yet, show through actions that he feels remorse for it and has grown from it. And make sure everyone in the movie knows that by the end.

He doesn't need to have been investigating, but not having any idea about Lex makes him look foolish and naive. It takes more than "covers tracks well" to make it believable that Lex can fool Batman.

I think Zod had a vial of Clark's blood already and it was in the Matrix. I don't think we're glossing over it. You see Bruce and Steel (he even worries what someone smarter than him would do with it) having some understanding over the years with Kryptonian technology. And there are weapons that are being used all the time (like the weapon used to try and kill Clark in Russia, which is done by Lex). So Lex has an understanding on how to use it, it;s just that he reveals that he got the Matrix working enough to pop out bizarro (or reverse engineer himself one).

IDK, I think it's very tongue in cheek. It's not meant to be vicious. And in a way it is urgent, since she needs Superman to help fight the incoming threat.

I think that would be cramming him in too much. I'd rather see him in MoS 2 as this guy who moves to Metropolis cus he's a big fan of Superman. I'm not a fan of the Fanboy Jimmy Olson, but since the train has long passed for them to be equal bros, it's the next best thing.

The nightmare scenes would show that remorse, and I guess I could at that to Bruce's tauntings of him. Saying that what's to stop him from killing all of us. Besides, I'm not sure what kinda lesson can be learned since he has to kill Doomsday at the end.

It's a case of keeping your enemies closer. Lex is not a perceived bad guy. And I disagree that covering his tracks isn't a sufficient enough method, since Bruce has no reason to investigate Lex's wrong doings. All Lex does is feed into Bruce's anger and fear, like in MoS. It's subtle. And when Lex uses Bizarro to frame Superman, Bruce does investigate to see if Superman has done it, and it does look like he did (as well as several eye witnesses. So it's not like Lex told him Superman killed people, the world itself and the government did.

@lukehero said:

@saintwildcard:

Thanks. Favorite and Least favorite part?

How Doomsday is made. Makes lex seem more competent than to create an uncontrollable monster on purpose. That was my favorite part. Where they both survive the nuke and it mutants Bizarro into Doomsday.

Least Favorite: Killing Sen Finch and Killing Superman...neither is necessary. Especially killing Supes...I mean there is no way they would ever perma kill him this early, so why bother? By not killing him it opens the door to actually do a proper death of superman type story.

A lot of people were fine with Lex potential building a monster that could kill him, but that just left a bad taste in my mouth since it just makes Lex petty and childish, not to mention foolish. And the thing I wanted to add is that these characters did shit over the last two years. It's Anime 101, a time skip is meant to show how far these characters have come. But everything major happened barely. Clark only moved in with Lois for crying out loud. No friends, no fortress, no feuds with governments, no nothing.

I tried to play within the walls of the movie without completely gutting it and scrapping it. Sen. Finch's purpose was to die, but I look back and hate the Senate scene. It's not only a bait and switch, but it's too big and dumb for Luthor. But at least here she is more proactive and the death sets of an actual chain of events because in BvS it only really made Bruce go after him, but that had more to do with the Senate and the dude in the wheelchair. So her death serves a purpose while showing that Luthor is willing to kill.

I honestly do like that they had to balls to kill him. But the movie never went through the effort to make the audience care which was my problem with it. And it sets up the foundation for him to come back as an icon. BvS was meant to be him against public opinion. But him dying and proving people wrong, helps him win over the majority of Earth. Besides, we knew he'd never stay dead no matter how far into the DCEU it happened.

@jonez_ said:

The dinner scene from Luthor: Man of Steel would've been a nice touch.

Maybe Lex can't completely fool Batman, but Batman would agree that Superman is a threat regardless.

I barely got around to reading it. BvS finally made me do it so I could wash the taste out of my mouth of their Lex. I;ve had the book for like 2 years. Wish I had done it sooner, it's up there with my other favorite Lex story, Red Son. Lex just feeds into Bruce's anger and fear through natural conversation.

I;m just flabbergasted that even though everyone and their mothers thought that Bruce and Lex would know eachother and probably had a fundraiser together, that this movie couldn't even do that. Made much more sense for Bruce to have flirty moments with Diana, rather than character development with Lex.

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@saintwildcard:

I honestly do like that they had to balls to kill him. But the movie never went through the effort to make the audience care which was my problem with it. And it sets up the foundation for him to come back as an icon. BvS was meant to be him against public opinion. But him dying and proving people wrong, helps him win over the majority of Earth. Besides, we knew he'd never stay dead no matter how far into the DCEU it happened.

I disagree if this was 4 or 5 movies into this franchise and they killed Superman. I would say that was very ballsy. Especially if they kept him dead for a good while(which is what they should still do, but won't).

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