S_W_LeGenD

The Star Forge was created when the Rakatan Empire had peaked in terms of expansion and development. Thanks for sharing that quote nevertheless - it is meaningful. I will accommodate it.

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The Rakatans were a RACE of Force-sensitives, and it was only a matter of time that they would spawn powerful Force-users. The impression given insofar is that they routed the Celestials in a largely undocumented galactic war - most likely with numbers and remarkable technologies at their disposal.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

The Rakatans managed to imprison some of the most dangerous beings on Belsavis including one of their own in Soa with support of remarkable technologies.

A closer look at Soa held inside The Eternity Vault:

In times of the Cold War between the Republic and the Empire, imperial bombing missions paved way for the Soa to overcome his restraints and strive to reclaim his lost glory but a major operation was launched to stop him in his tracks and terminate him for good.

A closer look at The World Razor held beneath The Tomb:

The World Razer was the undisputed ruler of another ancient race Esh-Kha which proved to be the greatest adversary to the Rakatans. The World Razer was one of the beings having unfathomable power, or so it is claimed.

In times of the Cold War between the Republic and the Empire, imperial bombing missions also paved way for a number of Esh-Kha to break free and attempt to release The World Razer.

The Republic dispatch its most skilled agents to foil such efforts.

In the unpublished novella Supernatural Encounters: The Trial and Transformation of Arhul Hextrophon, the World Razer is revealed to be Athla'giroth, one of the primordial Old Ones, ancient beings who also opposed the Celestials.

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The Republic took charge of Belsavis after the Rakatan Empire:

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

They brought the Dread Masters to Belsavis as well:

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

As pointed out earlier, being a powerful Force-user enable possibilities.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

You will notice the term 'shape-changers' in the list.

Pre-Republic specialists believe that the Columi, the Gree, the Kwa, and the Sharu all had contact with a species known as the Celestials, or the Architects, beings of astonishing power and malleable form.

From (Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Warfare)

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Below is the image of another being having malleable form under captivity:

From (Classic Star Wars: Devilworlds: The Pandora Effect)

The people who managed to imprison Wutzek were but mooks, but they had an advanced starship at their disposal as well as hand-held "trinkets." Wutzek was noticed to be powerful enough to disintegrate flesh and bone, and even the starship after its release.

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The Ones were really powerful but check the following footage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=groYO_51bwY

Historian account:

From (Star Wars: Force and Destiny: Core Rulebook)

The Father also said something interesting: "Only the chosen one could tame (take?) both my children."

He did not assert that somebody could not take even one of them.

Authors do not commit to absolutism for good reason; they do not introduce characters that are all-powerful for real - what kind of story can be told in this way? There would be no story to tell. This is the case with the Star Wars Legends continuity insofar.

MARVEL does have a being (The One Above All) whose powers are supposed to be beyond comprehension of all but even this entity was nerfed to advance Thanos when he made use of the Astral Regulator - absolutely ridiculous plot and story in my view. Some authors should be barred from messing up a lore TBH. However, MARVEL is not a theme of this blog, and I do not discuss MARVEL for good reason.

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This blog conform to the documented aspects of the Star Wars Legends continuity [only]. If (or when) new updates will come which are officially printed and declared a part of the Legends continuity, I will accommodate them. Cheers.

Anybody is most welcome to pick up whatever they want to - I will show understanding in the face of compelling and/or convincing arguments only. Do you have trouble realizing that Luke Skywalker does not have infallible defenses? He could not produce a counter to Sith Sorcery of Exar Kun and he could not shield himself to an application of Force Drain from Darth Krayt when they were up against Abeloth many years later - two separate instances and reminders.

I would say that Luke can defeat Darth Thanaton easily provided that he attacks first (immobilize him and/or pull him onto his Lightsaber - these are realistic possibilities for him given his incredible raw power and/or proficiency in telekinetics). It would be a bad decision to give one of the most powerful Sith in history a chance to cast spells he probably does not recognize or understand in person - dangers of Sith Sorcery in the nutshell. Luke wasn't stupid by the way - after what Exar Kun did to him, he understood that he cannot take Marka Ragnos for granted either should this Sith Lord manage to return as well (courtesy of the Disciples of Ragnos).

It is important to keep an open mind and not stick with absolutes. Cheers.

That sounds like a powerful ripple effect to me.

Revan also produced very strong ripple effects that could be felt across the galaxy when he cheated death for the first time by sheer force of will. He was ultimately singled-out and identified as the major source of disturbance in the Force by other Force-users who felt the ripples and/or were affected by them in person.

These themes are not quantifiable and have nothing to do with how Darth Plagueis stack up to Tenebrae in talents/abilities in life. These themes are plot devices to captivate audience on the other hand. I am not sure what else to make of this.

Why would he even bother to compare these two feats unless there is a point to it? This comparison is in the context of the levels of immortality that could be accomplished in practice. The term 'riskier' translate to this: "full of the possibility of danger, failure, or loss." The D6 sourcebooks help quantify these sort of comparisons in discussions as I have shown above.

Let us recheck Darth Plagueis's statement because you are omitting a part of it: Body swapping of this nature is riskier than simply sustaining one's own life through midi-chlorian manipulation.

Consider the underlined part as a whole. Darth Plagueis disclosed that it would be relatively easier for one to extend his life though Midichlorian Manipulation than to create a Voice in another living being. He did not talk about the subject being willing (or not) in this case - he just pointed out that this is a more difficult feat to pull off in person. And a Force-user who could create a Voice in other living beings time-and-again, is superior in comparison to those who could not by extension - an indication of being more powerful in comparison.

Darth Plagueis did not reach that level in life; his apprentice Palpatine murdered him before he could (or ever could).

Darth Thanaton is advanced as one of the most powerful Sith in history in the TOR Encyclopedia. Darth Nox literally cheated his way to victory in this case. The Sith Inquisitor original class story is an excellent reminder of possibilities with Sith Sorcery.

Called "Sith lightning," these charges cause excruciating pain and weaken life, and it is a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi Masters to deflect such bursts.

From (Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide)

Darth Thanaton gave a new meaning to Sith Lightning in his 3rd confrontation with Darth Nox (i.e. one of the most powerful expressions of Sith Lightning on record) but the latter's Force Ghosts shielded him from annihilation courtesy of the Force-walking hax. Each Force Ghost is a powerful entity in its own right.

The ultimate reality of the lore is this: knowledge is gained and lost through the ages. The Jedi Order was in decline in times of peace - numerous sources indicate as much. Master Yoda was an OUTLIER in PT times given his long life and experiences.

Exar Kun overwhelmed Luke Skywalker with his Sith Sorcery - the Jedi Master had no counter to his methods of manipulating the environment up to that point in time. What Master(s) Yoda and Obi-Wan had to teach Luke to handle Darth Vader, proved insufficient for this battle. Luke obviously had much room to grow further in the coming years.

To Luke's credit, his potential was vast courtesy of his father, and he have some of the most impressive showings for a Jedi under his belt. He could accomplish much with his Telekinetics* but his defenses were not infallible. The underlined part is something that both Exar Kun and Darth Krayt demonstrated at different points in time when each ran into Luke - this creates room for a debate.

*Luke can ragdoll majority of the Force-users with his telekinetics to say the least. He could pull many a opponent straight into his Lightsaber and call it a day in theory. This is assuming that he would be willing to because he was a practitioner of the Light in the end.

@necromancer76 said:

@s_w_legend: You're also forgetting about this:

Your "Voice" argument is weird. Plagueis also thought controlling both the Light and Dark sides of the Force simultaneously was madness. Does this place Revan above Plagueis?

A human Sith Lord whose short reign had elapsed some five centuries earlier, Gravid had been persuaded to believe that total commitment to the dark side would sentence the Sith Order to eventual defeat, and so had sought to introduce Jedi selflessness and compassion into his teachings and practice, forgetting that there can be no return to the light for an adept who has entered the dark wood; that the dark side will not surrender one to whom, by mutual agreement, it has staked a claim. Driven increasingly mad by his attempts to straddle the two realms, Gravid became convinced that the only way to safeguard the future of the Sith was to hide or destroy the lore that had been amassed through the generations-the texts, holocrons, and treatises - so that the Sith could fashion a new beginning for themselves that would guarantee success.

Source: Star Wars Darth Plagueis

And all of that aside, Plagueis still far outclasses Valk in both speed and lightsaber skill.

They're on the same level.

That statement is a BLURB and Leland Chee declared it "subjective" when he was consulted for it - this man works for LucasFilm and he is famous for his role as Keeper of the Holocron (he is responsible for maintaining records of the Star Wars mythos for consultation and revisits by and large to ensure continuity). His statements carry much weight in regards to shaping the lore. Many authors reach out to him when they are contributing to the lore.

You must understand that Tenebrae was much long-lived (he lasted 1500 years), and had much time at his disposal to hone his abilities in the dark side and push his immortality to new heights in the process. Tenebrae could do things that Darth Plagueis could never hope to in the span of his life therefore.

Tenebrae [one-shot] Darth Marr who was as fast as a Sith could be - Darth Marr could move so fast that his peer Darth Lachris felt as if he had teleported in one of his moves when he decided to put her abilities to the test because he wanted to dispatch her to Balmorra for an important assignment and was in search of a competent candidate for the needful. You cannot expect game developers to demonstrate speeds on this level in cutscenes because the audience (players) wouldn't have a clue what is happening then. You have to assume the obvious from 'revelations' in the lore.

Tenebrae could literally manipulate the space-time continuum to alter the course of a battle at a later stage of his existence - he granted this option to The Outlander while residing in his mind because he wanted to protect his host under dire circumstances. When Tenebrae (Valkorion) would do this, the environment around him and his host would appear to FREEZE IN TIME, and Tenebrae (Valkorion) would then release a significant blast of power which will catch his opponents off-guard, killing them all in the process. Darth Plagueis also believed in the possibility of manipulating the space-time continuum to one's advantage in his writings, but he did not reach this level of capability in his life. Go figure.

Darth Plagueis's criticism of Darth Gravid stem from the observation that it is nigh-impractical to attain balance between the Light and the Dark in mind (CONTROL spectrum) because these two pathways are the polar opposite to each other in practice, and this is a cause that will drive one to madness eventually. Darth Gravid was driven to madness by the obvious, right? Revan (Reborn) was an exception in this matter by virtue of his past experiences that were unique to him and helped shape his mindset and abilities by extension. Darth Plagueis being a Sith in heart and mind would not approve of this diversion in any case - he was also a scientist and pragmatist by extension. He wasn't the type to jump to conclusion(s) without exhaustive experiments.

The part about 'creating a VOICE in a living body' is a meaningful consideration in regards to how Darth Plagueis perceived this capability in comparison to his single greatest achievement in life (i.e. Midichlorian Manipulation). How else would WE be able to decide which is the superior feat of the two? Darth Plagueis helps settle this debate for good in his final recordings. Character perceptions can be instructive in regards to numerous developments in the lore.

Darth Bane started from Lord Kaan's Brotherhood of Sith who were deemed a mere shadow of what the Sith used to be in ancient times - this is documented and acknowledged by Darth Bane himself. When he discovered Darth Revan's holocron on Lehon, he found its contents overwhelming and this source was sufficient to enable Darth Bane to purge Brotherhood of Sith and create Rule of Two. Darth Revan was certainly a Darth as per standards of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire but he still had peers in the galaxy. While the Rule of Two Sith improved over the centuries, there was a period of significant setback caused by Darth Gravid due to which the Rule of Two Sith grew out of touch with Sith Sorcery and Darth Plagueis felt that there was much gap to be bridged once again. He also had a high opinion of ancient Sith.

High quality ancient Sith ------> DECLINE (Lord Kaan's Brotherhood) -------> Sith had to climb the ladder once again all the way up to Palpatine and even he had to learn from ancient Sith including from the archives of Darth Malgus. Palpatine credited his ability to produce a Force Storm (Wormhole) to a complex technique that he gleaned from the archives of Darth Malgus which he discovered at some point, in his "book of anger."

Darth Plagueis is not a mook to Valkorion but he is outgunned in this comparison. Valkorion will comfortably overwhelm him. This is all.

For the blackhole part: http://www.literarydevices.com/hyperbole/

I am not much fond of using hyperboles in my conversations - not my cup of tea. Otherwise, The Alliance Commander could unite a thousand stars with just his Lightsaber that he transformed into an extension of his will to defeat Arcann. You see where this is heading? Cheers.

Essence Transfer in a living body to be precise. D6 sourcebooks help readers understand the difference:

CONTROL difficulty = Heroic

SENSE difficulty = Heroic

ALTER difficulty = Easy (cloned body); Moderate (recent dead body); Difficult (willing living being); Heroic (unwilling living being)

Force Powers required to execute successfully (Star Wars D6 Force powers): absorb/dissipate energy; accelerate healing; control pain; emptiness; detoxify poison; hibernation trance; reduce injury; remain conscious; resist stun; life detection; life sense; magnify senses; receptive telepathy; sense Force; telekinesis; injure/kill; farseeing; projective telepathy; receptive telepathy; accelerate another's healing; control another's pain; feed on dark side; inflict pain; return another to consciousness; dim another's senses; transfer Force; affect mind.

Darth Plagueis's concession suggest that Midichlorian Manipulation is less difficult to replicate in the ALTER spectrum (Moderate level?).

The act of creating a Voice in a living being is virtually equivalent to the difficulty level established for creating and managing a Force Storm (Wormhole) as per D6 sourcebooks. It is now obvious that Valkorion was operating on this level and then some. He can be scaled from additional perspectives as well.

He may have trouble with Valkorion? He does not hold a candle to Valkorion in a fight. It is important to understand the environment both Darth Plagueis and Palpatine were a part of:

While he accepted that he and Plagueis were more than equal to the most powerful of the Jedi Order, he understood that they were no match for their combined strength—the Sith imperative notwithstanding. The Jedi would fall only with the full collaboration of the dark side; that was, only when the dark side of the Force was ready and willing to conspire in their downfall.

From (Star Wars: Darth Plagueis)

Could either of them just walk into the Jedi Temple and kill all inside? No. This wasn't practical and feasible.

Palpatine had to orchestrate a galactic conflict (The Clone Wars) to destroy much of the Jedi Order, and his 3rd apprentice Darth Vader had no trouble dealing with the leftovers in the Jedi Temple on Coruscant by the time The Clone Wars came to an end. Darth Vader still brought 501st with him just in case.

Why the Rule of Two was created in the first place? Darth Bane noted that the weak can unite against the strong and kill him (anybody):

"This is the greatest strength of the Sith: it culls the weak from our order. Yet this rivalry can also be our greatest weakness. The strong must be careful lest they be overwhelmed by the ambitions of those beneath them working in concert. Any Master who instructs more than one apprentice in the ways of the dark side is a fool. In time the apprentices will unite their strength and overthrow the Master. It is inevitable.

Axiomatic. That is why each Master must have only one student." - Darth Revan

From (Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)

There is a limit to how many one can fight in FLESH, and nobody can simply fight his way to the throne in the Empire - it is important to establish enabling powerbase beforehand. Valkorian had a significant powerbase of his own and could cheat death on top, evading attempts on his life time-and-again. Darth Plagueis is not Valkorion, and a bunch of well-trained Maladian assassins mortally wounded him in a fight, remember? A strike team of powerful Force-users will prove sufficient to stop/kill him in person - typical solution for virtually any BIG BAD to surface in the SWTOR times and otherwise. Since Darth Plagueis was not of this time - WE cannot be sure about how successful he would be in politics of the era but he won't last long if he is to fight his way to the throne. Darth Plagueis and Palpatine never had to cope with pressures of thousands of Sith plotting and scheming to undermine each other.

"How often you said that the old order of Bane had ended with the death of your Master. An apprentice no longer needs to be stronger, you told me, merely more clever. The era of keeping score, suspicion, and betrayal was over. Strength is not in the flesh but in the Force." - Palpatine

From (Star Wars: Darth Plagueis)

If Darth Plagueis is PORTED to the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire, he would be an alien to others and will have to work to establish his own powerbase that may propel him to great heights but there is no guarantee that he would succeed due to treachery and such because even the likes of Darth Malgus failed to control the Empire - being powerful in the ways of the Force is not sufficient to take charge of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire. Treachery is the way of the Sith and the one having strongest connections might ascend for a time only to be replaced by another at some point in the future.

This is overreaching. There is a limit to how many a living Force-user can fight in person, and nobody can simply fight his/her way to the throne of the Empire - it is of utmost importance to establish a powerbase beforehand. Unlike Darth Plagueis, Valkorian could cheat death and evade attempts on his life time-and-again; the protagonists still caught up to him. SWTOR is not a timeline of mooks.

See below.

Nothing suggest this to be the case. Valkorion is on another level entirely in feats and hype.

The statement hyping Darth Plagueis as the most powerful Sith is a subjective blurb as per Leland Chee (Keeper of the holocron, LucasFilm). Below is the latest backcover print:

The ultimate power he is stated to possess is Midichlorian Manipulation in the nutshell - a subjective take once again.

Darth Plagueis conceded that the act of creating a VOICE in a living being is relatively superior accomplishment:

The pneuma governs consciousness. Through this I am convinced that the energy pattern we know as self-awareness can be preserved and imprinted a second time into the neural pathways of a different brain. This process would be simplest with a cloned body that is identical to the subject's own, though in theory any advanced biological form would prove sufficient. Body swapping of this nature is riskier than simply sustaining one's own life through midi-chlorian manipulation. In dire emergency however, it could serve as an escape from oblivion.

From (Darth Plagueis, Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side)

Valkorion could do Midichlorian Manipulation as well as create a VOICE in a living being.