S_W_LeGenD's forum posts

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#1 Posted by S_W_LeGenD (90 posts) - - Show Bio

I hope you notice my response.

I do. Responding to random, six-month old posts doesn't help soothe my general hatred for just how toxic our debating community has become.

I understand, friend. Trolling have ruined the mood everywhere.

I just happened to come across this thread, and decided to address some points. I rarely debate on ComicVine anyways.

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#2 Edited by S_W_LeGenD (90 posts) - - Show Bio

Tenebrae smoke Count Dooku in both rounds.

@wollfmyth209:

Your statements in BLACK and ITALIC.

"I mean, he only geared them towards the Dark Side."

No, Tenebrae telepathically subjugated them.

By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already at the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Revan himself affirmed as much:

“We underestimated his power. When we confronted him, he didn’t even have to fight us. Instead, he broke our wills. He dominated our minds, turning us into puppets to do his bidding. He sent us back to the Republic as the vanguard of his invasion, with instructions to report back when all resistance was crushed."

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

Revan and Darth Malak were able to partially mitigate Tenebrae's telepathic grip over them. However, Revan was captured by the Jedi and they mindwiped him, and he was set free from Tenebrae's influence in full in this manner. Darth Malak wasn't so lucky, and this might be the reason why Darth Malak was beyond redemption.

"He didn't have them under his direct control, though. He just made them convert, which wouldn't be all that hard since they were already on the edge of converting."

See above. Tenebrae telepathically subjugated them and dispatched them to find Star Forge and commence Jedi Civil War in order to weaken both the Republic and the Jedi Order, and they delivered on these ends. However, numerous events were in motion since, and Tenebrae's plan did not bear fruit.

Nevertheless, Tenebrae's showing is extremely impressive because well-trained Force-users are supposed to be virtually immune to telepathic influence of any kind irrespective of their alignment to the Light Side or the Dark Side. And Revan and Darth Malak weren't just well-trained Force-users; each was among the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy and battle-hardened at the time. Being on the precipice of the Dark Side does not imply vulnerability to telepathic dominion in any way or form.

"Ah, you were referring to Vitiate. Well, it's certainly possible that Exar Kun was more powerful than Vitiate as of the Revan novel, due to Vitiate's claim of being the most powerful only coming from in-universe sources, at that time. These sources are historians who probably couldn't quite grasp the power of Exar."

WRONG. The Jedi Order was unaware of even greater source of EVIL back then, and we have a definite quote:

"The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed."

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Ever = at all times; always (Google).

Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia is not the account of historians, but a definitive source.

FRONT: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/910tpFWMzzL.jpg

BACK: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81mL%2B2nbHaL.jpg

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia is the account of historians on the other hand (stated within).

Now, try to understand what the term "in-universe" actually indicate:

Canon fic, or in-universe fic: Fic that builds off the existing canonical storyline.

Source: https://www.vox.com/2016/6/7/118586...ction-explained

Emphasis mine. SWTOR Encyclopedia is in-universe in the sense that it is a work of FICTION in OOU context but ABSOLUTELY TRUE for SWTOR verse. However, it does not represent the work of historians.

If you crave historian perspective of developments in relation to SWTOR project, then consider the works of Jedi Master Gnost-Dural.

[1] Galactic History: https://www.swtor.com/holonet/galactic-history

[2] The Journal of Master Gnost-Dural.

Tenebrae was stronger than Exar Kun at any point in time. His power progression was continuous.

"We also know Vitiate was scared sh!tless of the spirits of the Ancient Sith, and that Exar Kun was factually the "darkest power in the galaxy" while Vitiate was still around."

What? Tenebrae wasn't afraid of ancient Sith spirits and rather held many captive in the Dark Temple where he would draw knowledge from them, and siphon their energies, to conduct unexplained rituals from time to time.

Burial place, prison, and reliquary, the Dark Temple was built on the orders of the Emperor to seal away powerful artifacts and the Emperor's enemies, both alive and dead. The temple became a nexus of dark side energy as the Emperor performed rituals within, drawing strength and knowledge from his captives.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

NOTE: Tenebrae perceived ancient Sith spirits as potential threats to his rule because these entities could turn his followers against him and/or orchestrate rebellions, therefore, he boxed them in the Dark Temple.

Do you really think that Marka Ragnos's spirit would risk encounter with Tenebrae? Suicidal move on his part.

"However, there's also the Star Forge quote for Malak being > Exar Kun, but if you buy into that, then you must concede that TPM Mace is > Revan, as that quote comes from an even more canonically valid source(the SW Fact Files) and not an off-hand article. If you think Mace being > Revan is wrong because of feats, then you must then concede that Kun is > Malak based on feats. And this opens up an entire can of worms for you because then Vitiate, as of the Revan novel, ends up comparing poorly to the Ancient Sith."

Didn't member DarthAnt66 debunk the SW Fact Files part?

FYI: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=16128587#post16128587

Revan is also more than a mere Jedi since KoTOR endgame:

Three centuries ago, Revan wielded the dual philosophies of Sith passion and Jedi tranquility to conquer his enemies; he even nearly assassinated the Sith Emperor.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

And he has no affiliation with the Jedi Order as of Shadow of Revan story arc. So no, Mace Windu's hype is not applicable to Revan.

"Vader was in awe of the Rakghoul plague, which is a specific power, not neccessarily Muur's own. Plus Vader just came off Mustafar when that encounter happened, so he's not really even peaking on Obi's level. I wouldn't count that as a proper measurement."

Do you really think that Darth Vader had Rakghouls in mind when he assumed that he and Karness Muur together could taken on and overwhelm Palpatine?

"...She doesn't have the strength to stop Vader. But Karness Muur does."

And;

On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below.

From (Insider # 113; Darth Krayt profile)

Come on, man.

"Also, Dooku's lightning feats are > Nyriss'. I mean, I guess you can compare off-hands of shooting fodder, but against named characters, Dooku's lightning made Yoda struggle and would've killed Asajj or Vos(he was grievously injured when he used his lightning to kill Ventress in Dark Disciple, btw) which is honestly better than Nyriss' feats."

Hmm.

Called "Sith lightning," these charges cause excruciating pain and weaken life, and it is a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi masters to deflect such bursts.

From (Star Wars The Ultimate Visual Guide)

Yoda's struggle to contain a stream of Sith lightning from Count Dooku, with bare hands, is understandable because this is an exceedingly difficult feat to manage in any case, but Yoda's struggle was INITIAL as in he became comfortable afterwards. You should recheck Episode II novelization.

Secondly, Darth Nyriss could unleash a stream of Sith lightning which was potent enough to incinerate the likes of Meetra Surik and Sith Lord Scourge combined, and this implied fact suggest that she is above Count Dooku in this department.

"Vitiate was only distracted when Revan TKed him. Later Vitiate tried frying him with lightning, but got his bolts deflected back against him. It wasn't until he charged up a storm that it took Revan out. And even then, Revan managed to negate enough to the lightning's potency so that, instead of turning him to ash or killing him, it gave him third-degree burns."

Tenebrae wasn't expecting Revan to posit significant challenge to him, and therefore the fight turned out this way. However, Tenebrae would have reduced Revan into a pile of dust and bones, if T3-M4 had not interrupted him. Revan's defenses were formidable but they had begun to erode and T3-M4 intervened in time. Next, Meetra Surik prevented Vitiate from killing Revan again with a long distance lightsaber throw.

However, Vitiate was capable of overwhelming the entire Strike Team in the fight, if it had come down to this. This assertion is explicitly confirmed in the novel.

Betraying his allies had not altered the inevitable outcome; the Emperor would have won regardless. At least this way Scourge was still alive to carry on their cause.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

"This'll prolly be my last post, as my general will to debate Star Wars has deteriorated a lot lately. There's a lot of other quality debaters, who I'm sure would take up the burden for me here."

I hope you notice my response.

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#3 Edited by S_W_LeGenD (90 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger

KMC is a troll fest at the moment (unfortunately), and those rankings do not hold any water (utterly subjective). Additionally, some members are active and others are not. I am not active on a 24/7 basis there either. Conversely, some people pay attention to provided arguments, others remain indifferent. Some of the quality posters there are known to rate Valkorion very high which matters in the end.

Some of my best experiences in debating are with KMC members Lightsnake (a Sheevite) and Nephthys (TORite) respectively; reason is that these two pay attention to the provided arguments, and ignore BS.

You consider yourself a debater but you do not do any justice to the character which you seem to champion so much! You are no Lightsnake or ShootingNova. You have introduced extreme levels of wanking in your arguments which are frowned upon by many (I can gather evidence if need be), yet you do not realize it. You are unable to debate merits of Darth Plagueis and Palpatine in a refined (and realistic) manner - you are lacking in ideas actually.

Those polls were rigged in large part (I vividly recall people deliberately down-voting Valkorion in them in 1 on 1 situations).

I will see what kind of people post here.

@dawn_of_ages

Palpatine's chances are slim in tackling a Force Wizard such as Valkorion under normal circumstances. The latter is swift in subjecting an opponent to a myraid of Force powers, leaving no room for the opponent to maneuver and recover. Palpatine is overconfident, and this would be his undoing. If Palpatine decides to goad Valkorion into striking him down, he is done for. If Palpatine draw his lightsaber, Valkorion will manage to capitalize and take him out in this situation as well.

Palpatine might stand a chance against Valkorion in a favorable setting (e.g. Byss) where the act of using a Force power is like an afterthought to him. I give you this.

Valkorion's defenses are not to be underestimated however; he remarked to the Outlander that even superweapons are not sufficient to stop him. Valkorion also have the potential to manifest after loosing his Voice, and take his opponent by surprise in this manner. Valkorion is able to perform raw telekinetic feats (collapse a structure/setting), spawn monsters (e.g. Monoliths), possess other beings and subject other beings to Force Drain powers while in formless state of existence - sufficient arsenal to overwhelm an opponent. Valkorion's spirit was able to consume Vaylin's essence when she was struck down, and Palpatine's spirit is vulnerable like a typical Sith spirit. So...there's that.

I cannot change my vote but I would pick DE Sidious as a minimum.

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#4 Posted by S_W_LeGenD (90 posts) - - Show Bio
@s_w_legend said:

B/W:-

"I don't know for sure but I would imagine that there are no hard and fast lists about which Sith are the most powerful. "Most Powerful" would have lots of different variables to take into account. So it may be best to say that he was simply amongst the most powerful Sith along with Sidious and whoever else there may be. If you definitively say that one Sith was the most powerful then by definition any others that you create in the EU must be inferior so I doubt the continuity people make such absolutes about the powerfulness of the characters." - Leland Chee

Even if we don't count Sidious' GOAT quotes, or that you don't think that he has better feats than Valkorion, you'd agree that his feats put him above the vast majority of characters in the mythos, no?

Absolutely.

Palpatine is one of the most powerful Force-users of the mythos.

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#5 Edited by S_W_LeGenD (90 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages said:

@s_w_legend:

I hereby close this thread, no more posts are neccessary

You dare defy me?

This is just the beginning.

I will debunk moronic/illogical assessments of the reigning Sheevite at every turn here. Whether he reads or not, others will take notes sooner or later.

B/W:-

"I don't know for sure but I would imagine that there are no hard and fast lists about which Sith are the most powerful. "Most Powerful" would have lots of different variables to take into account. So it may be best to say that he was simply amongst the most powerful Sith along with Sidious and whoever else there may be. If you definitively say that one Sith was the most powerful then by definition any others that you create in the EU must be inferior so I doubt the continuity people make such absolutes about the powerfulness of the characters." - Leland Chee

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#6 Edited by S_W_LeGenD (90 posts) - - Show Bio
@azronger said:

@slayne:

It's certainly possible to argue that TPM Sidious is capable of beating Valkorion, but this is going a bit too far, lol.

Shitting on Failkorion never goes too far.

The line was more likely an inexact, hyperbolic measure Sidious used to highlight his wild growth rather than him confirming that he was, literally, ten times more powerful as a whatever-he-was-year-old than he was as a 17-year-old.

I don't know why you're interpreting that literally, at any rate.

Wait, so if the musings are hyperbole, then Sidious grew less than times more powerful over the decades, which means that the gap between 17-year-old Sheev and TPM Sidious is even smaller. You just argued against your own case, son.

The text doesn't say that he was able to inform every living being of his existence; it states that he set out to do so, and failed because the Force disobeyed his command. You could make the argument that the Force disobeyed him because it recognized his ability to impact the galaxy in such a manner, but that's implausible because he'd already performed a multitude of actions which would draw the Force's ire by that point such as unbalancing it artificially and manipulating the midichlorians. This attempt was probably the straw that broke the camel's back when it came to the Force's tolerance of Plagueis' antics.

The text even compounds this when it states that "many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases" - if the Force had only wanted to stop him from reaching out, why would it also kill the animals in his laboratory? Again, such a response was most likely prompted by the Force's recognition of the danger his quest for power posed; he was becoming too ambitious, and so the Force shut him down.

Or maybe what Plagueis was attempting was even more sacrilegious than suffusing the galaxy with the dark side or manipulating midi-chlorians, which happens to be exactly what the text states:

Still in safekeeping on Aborah were texts and holocrons that recounted the deeds and abilities of Sith Masters who, so it was said and written, had been able to summon wind or rain or fracture the skies with conjured lightning. In their own words or those of their disciples, a few Dark Lords claimed to have had the ability to fly, become invisible, or transport themselves through space and time. But Plagueis had never succeeded in duplicating any of those phenomena.

From the start Tenebrous had told him that he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery, even though the inability hadn't owed to a deficiency of midi-chlorians. It's an innate gift, the Bith would say when pressed, and one that he had lacked, as well. Sorcery paled in comparison with Bith science, regardless. But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

The question of whether he and Sidious had discovered something new or rediscovered something ancient was beside the point. All that mattered was that, almost a decade earlier, they had succeeded in willing the Force to shift and tip irrevocably to the dark side. Not a mere paradigm shift, but a tangible alteration that could be felt by anyone strong in the Force, and whether or not trained in the Sith or Jedi arts.

The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force's proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended.

On the same day they had allowed Venamis to die.

Then, by manipulating the Bith's midi-chlorians, which should have been inert and unresponsive, Plagueis had resurrected him. The enormity of the event had stunned Sidious into silence and overwhelmed and addled 11-4D's processors, but Plagueis had carried on without assistance, again and again allowing Venamis to die and be returned to life, until the Bith's organs had given out and Plagueis had finally granted him everlasting death.

But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn't been enough for him. And so after Sidious had returned to Coruscant, he had devoted himself to internalizing that ability, by manipulating the midi-chlorians that animated him. For several months he made no progress, but ultimately he began to perceive a measured change. The scars that had grown over his wounds had abruptly begun to soften and fade, and he had begun to breathe more freely than he had in twenty years. He began to sense that not only were his damaged tissues healing, but his entire body was rejuvinating itself. Beneath the transpirator, areas of his skin were smooth and youthful, and he knew that eventually he would cease to age altogether.

Drunk on newfound power, then, he had attempted an even more unthinkable act: to bring into being a creation of his own. Not merely the impregnation of some hapless, mindless creature, but the birth of a Forceful being. The ability to dominate death had been a step in the right direction, but it wasn't equivalent to pure creation. And so he had stretched out-indeed, as if invisible, transubstantiated-to inform every being of his existence, and impact all of them: Muunoid or insectoid, secure or dispossessed, free or enslaved. A warrior waving a banner in triumph on a battlefield. A ghost infiltrating a dream.

But ultimately to no end.

The Force grew silent, as if in flight from him, and many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases.

Regardless, eight long years later, Plagueis remained convinced that he was on the verge of absolute success. The evidence was in his own increased midi-chlorian count; and in the power he sensed in Sidious when he had finally returned to Sojourn. The dark side of the Force was theirs to command, and in partnership they would someday be able to keep each other alive, and to rule the galaxy for as long as they saw fit.

--Darth Plagueis

Just tell me that isn't the wankiest excerpt in Star Wars literature.

It isn't just a telepathy feat; Plagueis attempted to manipulate the midi-chlorians of every single living organism in the galaxy to bring about "the birth of a Forceful being." That is why the Force stopped him and killed all his lab animals, but it never intervened with his midi-chlorian manipulation again. So rather than being "the straw that broke the camel's back" or whatever, it was simply a feat that scared the Force itself shitless, so it decided to put a end to it. And indeed, if the Force was required to take such drastic action against him, that kind of in itself confirms Plagueis would have succeeded otherwise.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the level of power Darth Plagueis the Wise operates on. It's a level of power that allows him to outwill and frighten the Force itself; it's a level of power that allows him to achieve Force corruption, telepathy, and midi-chlorian manipulation feats of galactic proportions; and most importantly, it's a level of power that allows him (and TPM Sidious) to one-shot Failkorion tens of times over.

If 17-year-old Sheev is even one-tenth (or even more than one-tenth, as Slayne has ironically argued) of that, it's safe to say he's beyond Failkorion's paygrade too. After all, we have seen Force prodigies like Darth Zannah and Vitiate himself being far above fully trained Force users while they were mere children, and the likes of Darth Cognus rivalling peak Darth Bane without any training in the Force whatsoever, so it doesn't shouldn't be too outlandish to claim that someone with infinitely greater Force potential than any aforementioned characters would be more powerful than Failkorion as a teenager (for a quick comparison of Palpatine and Failkorion's Force potential, the latter was almost 1500 years old at his peak with numerous rituals and artificially gained power elevating him to his current position, and the former as of Dark Empire was… 96. That's younger than pre-Nathema Vitiate, for the record).

So if we round that to the closest of the poll options, zygote Sheev gets my vote.

What a load of moronic crap....

This part:

Drunk on newfound power, then, he had attempted an even more unthinkable act: to bring into being a creation of his own. Not merely the impregnation of some hapless, mindless creature, but the birth of a Forceful being. The ability to dominate death had been a step in the right direction, but it wasn't equivalent to pure creation. And so he had stretched out-indeed, as if invisible, transubstantiated-to inform every being of his existence, and impact all of them: Muunoid or insectoid, secure or dispossessed, free or enslaved. A warrior waving a banner in triumph on a battlefield. A ghost infiltrating a dream.

But ultimately to no end.

The Force grew silent, as if in flight from him, and many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

- imply nothing more than utter failure on the part of Darth Plagueis to pull off that kind of feat - a non-feat in short.

The Force is not a sentient being with emotions: Force-users cannot frighten it or make it happy. You need to revisit the basics of the Force before you pass such silly verdicts.

The Force refers to a mysterious energy field produced by the living beings of the Star Wars mythos:

An energy field generated by all living things, binding the galaxy together.

Taken from Star Wars: The Dark Side Sourcebook

--

The Force simply is. It has existed as long as life has flourished in the galaxy, and will endure as long as the life remains. It has been called an energy field, and in many ways this is true, though it cannot be measured by conventional or technological means.

Taken from Star Wars: Force and Destiny

--

"Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." (Jedi Master Yoda)

--

No Caption Provided

Taken from Star Wars: Force and Destiny

The Force have a Light side and a Dark side (an interpretation of its life-giving and life-taking properties), and this duality is the ultimate source of conflict throughout Star Wars history:

No Caption Provided

Taken from Star Wars: Force and Destiny

No Caption Provided

Taken from Star Wars: The Dark Side Sourcebook

--

Historians have recorded the role of Force-sensitive beings in momentous events since the earliest days of the Republic. Force users fought in many pivotal conflicts, from the ancient and nigh-mythical battles between the Jedi and Sith to the recent conflicts in the galaxy-spanning Clone Wars. They have counseled governments and led Empires. They have brought both strife and peace to the galaxy.

Taken from Star Wars: Force and Destiny

Force-users are in the position to influence the balance between Light side and Dark side through their actions:

Decide the future of the galaxy and determine the fate of your allies and enemies – your every action drives the galaxy closer to the light or dark side of the Force.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic

--

No Caption Provided

Taken from Star Wars: Force and Destiny

--

The light side and dark side are always present, constantly struggling for balance in the galaxy and within individual beings.

Taken from Star Wars: The Dark Side Sourcebook

--

He could sense the Balance tipping towards darkness, he could feel the Force shuddering with uncertainty and despair.

Taken from Star Wars: Fate of the Jedi: Vortex

Since living beings are the primary source of creation and sustenance of the Force on the whole, it isn't a big deal that they are able to influence the balance between Light side and Dark side of the Living Force through their actions.

Cosmic Force transcends normal conceptions of time and space on the other hand, and appears to have its own will:

No Caption Provided

Taken from Star Wars: Force and Destiny

--

And yet the galaxy has a fundamental mysticism that science cannot unravel. This power has always defied the attempts to skeptics to explain it away, and its influence is undeniable. Species and cultures have known this strange energy by a multitude of names, but the Jedi and Sith know it as the Force.

Taken from Star Wars: Force and Destiny

- but the Force does not oppose actions of a living being in direct manner:

The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force’s proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

The underlined part suggest absolute lack of counter from the Force during the course of that ritual. Similarly, the Force didn't kill Valkorion for creating a void around Medriaas and prolonging its existence for indefinite period, and the Force didn't kill Naga Sadow for causing a supernova. The Force responds to actions of a living being in passive ways, according to its own remote designs.

Sith might assume that they have out-willed the Force by nudging it closer to the Dark side but their assumption is misplaced. If Darth Plagueis and Palpatine had truly out-willed the Force with their ritual, they would have made it completely subservient to their cause, prevented birth of Anakin Skywalker and commanded it to stop the hearts of all Jedi across the Galaxy, but this wasn't the case. Their ability to influence the Force is/was far from being all-encompassing.

--- --- ---

As for the level of power Darth Plagueis operates on: he couldn't one-shot featless Darth Venamis in a fight, and he barely succeeded in defeating a group of assassins in another fight. He also failed to cheat death after Palpatine subjected him to his Force powers.

Not impressed.

Plot-devices are NOT a good way to evaluate personal strength of a character, period.

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#7 Edited by S_W_LeGenD (90 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight:

Member Azronger's response is filled with glaring misconceptions actually:-

1. Sith Spirits are not anchored to any world (strong in the Dark Side) such as Dromund Kaas, Yavin IV, Ziost and Korriban among others. They are anchored to objects/artifacts/tombs (focal points of dark side energy) but their spheres of influence are restricted accordingly.

Valkorion was not anchored to any object/artifact/tomb and his essence was able to teleport from one world to another (Dromund Kaas to Yavin IV; Yavin IV to Ziost; Ziost to Zakuul) and roam an entire world freely (Ziost).

There wasn't any need to highlight conditions of several worlds such as Dromund Kaas, Yavin IV, Ziost, Korriban, Zakuul and Odessen - a chunk of the response is useless.

2. In regard to discussion about the Outlander, member Azronger is playing with semantics and ignoring the bigger picture.

"A being of unfathomable power and insatiable appetite, he transcended death multiple times, shedding his physical shells as they were discovered, defeated, and destroyed... only to return in another form."

Taken from codex entry titled "Fall of Valkorion."

A single statement is never all-encompassing and binding; we have to concentrate on the bigger picture and piece together bits of information to achieve a higher understanding of theme.

Valkorion transcended death multiple times throughout the course of his existence and he didn't had to latch onto a living being nearby to cheat death in each case. Member Azronger is mistaking a 'plot device' for all-encompassing reality which is erroneous. He doesn't even know that Valkorion abandoned the Outlander for a while during the events of KoTFE and KoTET and he doesn't understand that Valkorion was 'manipulating' the Outlander into doing his bidding throughout - he doesn't play the game (it seems).

3. Loss of strength is expected in each episode of cheating death but Valkorion could rebuild his strength, even as a spirit, which is apparent from his exploits in Yavin IV and Ziost respectively. The blog assert that Valkorion's essence can manifest his powers outside a physical body which is absolutely correct.

4. Tionne Solusar is wrong in highlighting limitations of Sith Spirits in general? I don't get member Azronger's beef with the revelation. Yes! Even a scholar is fallible but this doesn't imply that we dismiss his/her observations without a valid reason.

5. Member Azronger is misinterpreting quotes about Palpatine as indicative of his power as a spirit which is not the case. My blog contains numerous quotes which highlight Palpatine's actions as a spirit and they are limited to Essence Transfer mostly. He also overlooked the part of Jeng Droga in making the journey of Palpatine's spirit to Byss possible after the Battle of Endor.

6. The Skywalkers disrupted Palpatine's hold over his Force Storm above Da Soocha V; the Force Storm became erratic and destroyed Palpatine's fleet consequently. However, Palpatine's spirit transmigrated to another cloned physical body on Byss.

"Finally, the Emperor was consumed by his hyperspace wormhole.

But a single clone had survived Luke Skywalker's attack. Emperor Palpatine revealed himself as two of his subordinates were displaying an alarming lack of loyalty and attempting to complete the destruction that Skywalker had not finished."

Taken from Dark Empire: Hand Book no. 3

In summary:

Palpatine's essence could not manifest his powers outside a physical body, and he needed a supply of clones to ensure his existence after loosing his original physical body in the Battle of Endor because his essence could not resist pull of the void for indefinite period. When supply of clones diminished, Palpatine visited Korriban to solicit help of Sith Spirits for preserving his last cloned physical body but they informed him to take Leia's infant body instead.

There is literally no comparison between the abilities of Valkorion and Palpatine, outside a physical body, respectively.

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#8 Posted by S_W_LeGenD (90 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages:

You got that wrong, my friend. A Sith spirit is not supposed to exist and wander around because the pull of the VOID is continuous and overwhelming, unless it anchor itself to an object or an individual. Palpatine's essence wasn't an exception to this ground reality. You are mistaking Jedi apprentice Band's opinion for a fact; he mused that Palpatine's essence will never return due to collective efforts of Jedi spirits towards this end. This is oxymoron because a Sith spirit cannot return from the VOID; it seizes to exist while becoming one with the VOID.

Palpatine's essence almost perished during the course of its journey to Byss:

He had never foreseen having to transport his spirit so far across space. He had nearly dispersed forever, but he had survived, and now need never fear death again. - The Dark Empire Sourcebook

- and, more importantly, a notable servant of Palpatine, the Force-sensitive Hand Jeng Droga, made the journey of Palpatine's essence to Byss possible because they shared an acute psychic connection with each other and Palpatine's essence was anchored to him:

Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body. The infusion of Palpatine's overwhelming dark side energies reduced Jeng to incoherent madness. Eventually, Palpatine's Grand Vizier was able to find Droga and tear the Emperor's essence from Droga's body. Once again, Droga had saved his master. - Star Wars Gamer 5: The Emperor's Pawns

In the absence of such external factors, Palpatine's essence would have perished. Not surprisingly, Palpatine was gravely concerned about loosing his last clone body:

"NO! NOT THAT ... YOUR SPIRITS GUIDED ME BACK TO THIS LIFE WHEN I WAS DESTROYED BY VADER ... AND BY HIS CHILDREN ... MY AGING CLONE BODY WILL SOON DIE. I NEED HEALING ... NOW." - Palpatine to unidentified Sith Spirit on Korriban (Dark Empire III: Empire's End)

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Valkorion's powers seemingly declined after loosing its original IMMORTAL EMPEROR VOICE because it latched onto a being of inferior strength (i.e. the Outlander) a moment later. However, Valkorion attempted to address this bottleneck by altering/strengthening Force-sensitivity and powers of the Outlander, and when the latter would be strong enough, Valkorion would hollow him out and turn him into his VOICE.

"You were an exemplary pawn, one I forged into a vessel of supreme power--worthy of preserving my spirit." - Valkorion to the Outlander (Knights of the Eternal Throne)

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As I pointed out above, Palpatine could not sustain his essence for long without anchoring it to an object or an individual (duration of transmigration from Endor to Byss does not count because Palpatine's essence could be drawing energy from Jeng Droga during the course of this journey for its sustenance).

I get the impression that Valkorion can resist the pull of the VOID for indefinite period in its disembodied format of existence. This is apparent from following observations:

1) Valkorion's essence being able to move from the Dark Temple in Dromund Kaas to the Emperor's Sanctuary in Yavin IV after its SITH EMPEROR VOICE was struck down in the Dark Temple.

2) Valkorion's essence being able to teleport itself from the Emperor's Sanctuary in Yavin IV to Ziost, and managed to perform extremely complex and demanding feats there without anchoring itself to any object, individual or structure.

“He did not assume a physical form or possess a body. And he left as soon as he appeared. None of it makes sense!” - Darth Marr to Lana Beniko (Shadow of Revan)

---

Unleashed from his sanctuary on Yavin 4, the former Sith Emperor has now struck the Imperial world of Ziost. Using his immense power in the dark side of the Force, he has dominated the minds of the planet’s Imperial troops--as well as an elite cadre of militaristic Jedi--and has set them against the populace, engaging in a bloody slaughter. - Rise of the Emperor

---

Obsessed with achieving immortality, the Sith Emperor has targeted his own former subjects on the planet Ziost, with every death seemingly extending his dark power. Speaking through those he’s possessed, he controls powerful pawns like Master Surro, the leader of a team of elite militarized Jedi known as the Sixth Line. - Rise of the Emperor

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As the Sith Emperor gradually dominates the free will of everyone on Ziost, both Lana Beniko, Minister of the newly formed Sith Intelligence, and Theron Shan, a spy for the Galactic Republic, are trying to stop the chaos. - Rise of the Emperor

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My blog: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/cataclysm-of-planet-ziost/105050/

Valkorion's exploits in Ziost do not give the impression of a Sith Spirit under stress of the pull of the VOID; in-fact, Valkorion's demonstration of power in Ziost is unparalleled for a Sith Spirit and/or a disembodied entity throughout the Star Wars history.

Valkorion is no ordinary Sith Spirit - rather a Dark entity of incredible power.

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Can you provide evidence of a Sith Spirit anchoring itself to an entire world that is strong in the Dark Side? This doesn't seem to be the case. On Korriban, Sith Spirits were able to manifest in the Valley of the Dark Lords where numerous tombs existed housing their corpses, and each tomb was a focal point of Dark Side energy. On Dromund Kaas, Sith Spirits were able to manifest in the Dark Temple, a focal point of Dark Side energy. On Yavin IV, numerous temples existed and each was a focal point of Dark Side energy.

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Some observations:-

1. Compare the exploits of the two in 'strictly disembodied format' and see the difference. Palpatine was unable to manifest his powers outside a physical body much like Marka Ragnos.

The ability to transcend death is not exclusive to Jedi: Emperor Palpatine and the ancient Sith Lords Marka Ragnos managed to preserve their psyches after their deaths, but it seems their spiritual forms were restricted by certain boundaries and limitations. Palpatine's spirit required cloned bodies to manifest his powers; Marka Ragnos's and Exar Kun's spirits were essentially trapped within Sith-engineered temples for thousands of years. - Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Valkorion on the other hand...

2. Valkorion killed a planet (i.e. Ziost) with his powers [Rise of the Emperor] whereas Luke Skywalker mused that a Force Storm of sufficient size can kill a planet [The Jedi Path]. Palpatine never killed a planet with a Force Storm by the way.

3. Valkorion prevented recovery of a planet (i.e. Medriaas) with its mere existence while partaking in a number of other activities since Medriaas was turned into Nathema (i.e. a void in the Force) by the former. While keeping Nathema in effect, Valkorion corrupted Dromund Kaas to a degree that its recovery is/was out of question. These showings, in tandem, blow Palpatine's corruption of Byss out of water.

4. Valkorion humbled an entire Dark Council in a confrontation; each member of the Dark Council is counted among the most powerful Sith in the galaxy at any point in time. Any showing from Palpatine to compare in this case?

5. Valkorion managed to expand its reach across the Galaxy at personal capacity by creating Children and Voices (an organic network of unwitting agents who infiltrated all walks of life in the Republic and the Jedi Order). The Jedi were unable to unmask Valkorion's Children amongst their ranks until First Son was struck down. Any showing from Palpatine to compare in this case?

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#9 Edited by S_W_LeGenD (90 posts) - - Show Bio

I have gone through the lengthy essay of member @Azronger and I continue to wonder what exactly he addressed with it?

He debunked nothing in my blog and he continue to miss an important theme of DARK EMPIRE saga that Palpatine needed physical bodies to manifest his powers and ensure his existence, he risked demise otherwise. When he ran out of clones, he visited Korriban to seek guidance from ancient Sith spirits for saving his current (and last) clone body and/or some other solution and the spirits advised him to take over the infant of Leia and Han.

It is blantantly clear that Valkorion could manifest his powers outside a physical body (Yavin IV; Ziost) and he could cheat death in virtually any setting. Valkorion have superior showings than Palpatine in general.

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#10 Posted by S_W_LeGenD (90 posts) - - Show Bio

Steve Rogers is relatively more experienced incarnation of the same character. Steve was able to hold Thanos at bay with bear hands for a while which speaks volume of his actualized strength as of that point in time.

I vouch for Steve.