Don't think there's really much evidence to suggest that the Star Forge undermined the Celestials attunement to the Force. The context of the quote can just as easily be taken to mean that the Star Forge caused infighting amongst their civilization which allowed the races they'd subjugated to rise up and overthrow their masters.
Decent thread otherwise, though I feel you were kind of obvious with your SWTOR bias...
Thank you for your interest and appreciation.
Yes! I did not assert that the Star Forge undermined the Celestials attunement to the Force.
The Star Forge provided much needed assistance to the Rakatans in overwhelming their enemies across the galaxy. This construct was SAFE to operate early on but the Rakatans were strong in the Dark Side, and the Star Forge began to feed on this corruption which had unintended consequences.
The Star Forge is heavily implied to be the source of the mysterious plague which undermined Rakatan Force-sensitivity 5000 years later. The Star Forge was no longer safe to operate from now on.
Darth Revan realized as much but Darth Malak was taking his chances, not realizing what the Star Forge would do to the Sith and the others eventually. This reality is established in the next installment of Knights of the Old Republic saga.
My intention is not to undermine reputation of the Celestials per se; it is obvious that they had technological prowess as well as Force powers which would make them extremely formidable opponent to numerous factions even in the cross-FICTION context but this is beyond the scope of this blog. This blog however established that it was a matter of time that the dominion of the Celestials would be challenged and usurped; that there were others who could challenge them head-on. LORDING over the galaxy for over 70,000 years is by no means a small feat.
Nothing lasts forever, things are in motion and ground realities shift from time-to-time.
The Celestials are one of my favorite themes. Therefore, the 'SWTOR bias' part is completely unwarranted remark.
@s_w_legend: This was very comprehensive and quite impressive. I just had a few questions.
Was it really an example of farsight that the sith claimed Vitiate had a vision of the Mandalorians conquering until the Republic collapsed? Part of it came true, but it also seemed to be some sith manipulations of the Mandalorians.
Also, it looked like it was force lightning, not a force blast, which Valkoriona used to knock Arcann off the ledge, at least from my perspective.
Thank you for your feedback.
I am taking revelations in the (SWTOR: Revan) novel at face value in this case. The said vision came true in a way that Mandalorian crusades set the stage for the Jedi Civil War which virtually devastated the Republic as well as the Jedi Order in the end. Details are secondary.
Arcann was able to counter (fleet-disabling) Force Lightning Storm early on, therefore, Tenebrae (Valkorion) seems to have introduced another attack in the mix which did the trick; knocking Arcann off the ledge.
My original take was Force blast (Valkorion is a master of this Force power): https://swtor.jedipedia.net/en/abl/force-blast-15
ButTHAT application would utterly annihilate any subject...
My current take is Dark blast - an application in which Telekinesis is involved. Link: https://swtor.jedipedia.net/en/abl/dark-blast
@s_w_legend: Vitiate used Sith alchemy to prolong Revan's life:
I lost everyone...betrayed from within. The Emperor imprisoned me, kept me alive with Sith alchemy...used me.
--Revan, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Maelstrom Prison
Tenebrae (The Sith Emperor) employed a combination of Sith Sorcery and Sith Alchemy to restrain Revan in the Maelstrom Prison for centuries, to be precise. I highlighted both revelations in accordance.
Valkorion does not have reality warping. He has advanced form of telepathy. He manipulates the individuals perception of reality.
Tenebrae (Valkorion) is able to bend the arc of time and space to create room for his intervention during the course of a BATTLE, but it is up to the PLAYER to consider his offer. If the PLAYER is willing; Tenebrae (Valkorion) is able to ALTER the course of the BATTLE with his Force powers on a moment's notice. Reality Warping is the most likely explanation of this capability, but I am open to additional interpretations besides the merely 'manipulating an individual's perception of reality' part.
The aforementioned is much different from merely manipulating an individual's perception of reality which WE notice happening in the Chapter 2 of the Knights of the Fallen Empire expansion set.
An extrapolation of Fold Time perhaps? Darth Plagueis alluded to this capability in the source (Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side).
1. A planet is not a 'focal point of dark side energy' - the phrase refers to works of living beings.
The Sith have had a thousand years to perfect dark arts. The ziggurats of stacked stone and the mountainsides carved into stern faces are more than just tombs for vanished kings. When you stand at the intersection of this mystic architecture, you feel a rush of wind and a shive of electricity. The angles of these mausoleums focus the arcane energies of the Force.
Taken from (Book of Sith - Secrets from the Dark Side)
Distinction is also made in this quote:
Each dark side spirit has a focal point of power that anchors it in the physical world. For example, the interred Sith Lords of Korriban use their burial sarcophagi to hold their spirits for millennia after death. Freedon Nadd clung to his tomb for countless centuries, waiting for the right opportunity to turn his successor to the dark side. Exar Kun - who didn't technically die so much as merge with the dark side and retain his identity - resisted the dissolution of his spirit by drawing on the remarkable focusing energies of the Massassi temples on Yavin 4.
Taken from (The Dark Side Sourcebook)
Structures; objects; and artifacts = focal points of dark side energy mostly.
Secondly, 'game mechanics' are not true representatives of developments in the lore. Sith Spirits can wander around in a particular location (e.g. Valley of the Dark Lords in Korriban) where they are anchored to a focal point of dark side energy but they remain confined to that location unless they share a connection with certain artifacts which can be utilized to summon them in other spots. They cannot teleport from a planet to another and/or manifest anywhere they want to on their own because pull of the void is overbearing to them; Sith spirits are not supposed to exist.
Consider the example of spirit of Marka Ragnos. His spirit was anchored to his sarcophagi but it could be summoned to another spot through certain artifacts by those who wielded them:
"You have both found the amulets ... and each other ... now the power of these amulets are joined ... and I have come." (Marka Ragnos to Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma)
Thousands of years later, leader of the Disciples of Ragnos, Tavion Axmis, summoned the spirit of Ragnos in his tomb in the Valley of the Dark Lords in Korriban with a ritual involving an artifact known as "Scepter of Ragnos."
Ragnos's spirit cannot wander around in Yavin IV or any other planet unless it was summoned there through an artifact. Game mechanics should be ignored in the light of dictums of the lore.
Valkorion's essence is not a Sith Spirit - it is a manifestation of his immortality - a condition which allow him to retain his powers outside a physical body and/or cheat death repeatedly.
The Emperor was no longer a member of the Sith species; his power and immortality had transformed him into a being unique in the galaxy.
Taken from (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)
2. Do you understand the meaning of the word 'context' and English language in general? I suppose not.
The circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood.
Taken from (Oxford Dictionaries)
The statement cited by me is "past perfect" and convey the bigger picture of Valkorion's exploits over time whereas the statement cited by you is "past simple" and refer to a single event.
My blog provides ample evidence for the observation that Valkorion's essence could endure on its own and didn't need to latch onto a living being for the said purpose; we see this in Dromund Kaas (SWTOR vanilla), Yavin IV (Shadow of Revan) and Ziost (Rise of the Emperor) respectively. Therefore, Valkorion's decision to infiltrate the mind of the Outlander in order to cheat a corporeal death shall be viewed as a plot device for KoTFE and KoTET expansions of the overarching SWTOR project (a means to an end and not the end in itself).
That quote represent Valkorion playing games with the Outlander (corrupted memories). Not to be taken at face value.
3. Do you even understand your own sources? None of those quotes are reinforcing your argument about Palpatine's capacity to influence the external environment in profound ways as a spirit.
Quote no. 1 posits that Luke Skywalker was not in the position to suppress Palpatine's command of the dark side and influence over the galaxy.
Quote no. 2 complements my position:
Cut off from a host body, Palpatine's essence dissipated, to be consumed by the madness that was the dark side.
Taken from (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia)
Palpatine needed a physical body to manifest his powers; he was severely lacking in power, and vulnerable to pressures of the VOID, as a spirit. This is apparent from the fact that Palpatine failed to overcome a mortally wounded Jedi as a spirit who stood in his way from possessing an infant and met his doom consequently. FULL STOP.
Quote no. 3 refer to Palpatine's ability to perform Essence Transferas a spirit which I have fully acknowledged in my blog but my contention is that he cannot do much else as a spirit.
Quote no. 4 refer to Luke Skywalker's meeting with Palpatine for the first time after the Battle of Endor in several years when the latter was in a cloned physical body - a condition in which Palpatine was able to manifest his powers very clearly. Below is the glimpse of this meeting:
My entire blog flew over your head? Are you like FIVE year old?
The litany of quotes you are throwing at me do not refute my observations in regards to Palpatine's abilities outside a physical body. Of-course, Palpatine as of the Dark Empire Saga can be viewed as a being characterized by dark side energy because he is able to subsist as a Sith Spirit by virtue of his experiments with immortality earlier. However, Palpatine is able to manifest his powers in profound ways only through a physical body; this is his limitation.
Having a hard time in coming to terms with the fact that Palpatine was not all-powerful?
4. You are confusing Tionne Solusar's observation with Empatojayos Brand's musing. Solusar was a noteworthy historian of her time; her observation in regards to limitations of Sith Spirits is correct, and can be independently verified by a reader. I refer to you my analogy of Ragnos's spirit above.
When a Sith Spirit succumb to the pressures of the VOID, it seizes to exist at this point. There isn't a need for Jedi Spirits to intervene in this matter.
5. I have seen the quotes and addressed them above.
Valkorion's essence could unleash powerful waves of dark side energy on its own with which it could collapse structures (Dromund Kaas), create violent tremors (Yavin IV) and even consume others (Ziost).
You need to come to terms with the CONTEXT of the statement from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia; it posit that Palpatine was able to retain his identity after his death in the Battle of Endor (there is always a first) but he was forced to cope with maddening bodiless existence of the void (aka SPACE) during the course of his journey to Byss.
You missed the "transmigration" part in your argument.
Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body.
From (Star Wars Gamer 5: The Emperor's Pawns)
Definition of word transmigration:-
"the passage of a soul after death into another body; metempsychosis."
Taken from http://www.dictionary.com/browse/transmigration
Same source reveals that Palpatine shared an acute psychic connection with Jeng. Try to connect the dots.
6. You have addressed nothing with your ramblings, I'm afraid. I get the impression that it may take a person with a certain level of intellect to understand my blog, and you do not fit the bill.
You need to step out of the shell of naive Sheevism and look at things objectively for a change.
Fair enough. I pretty much agree- though I could see Krayt>Valkorion.
Are you high?
Abeloth shook Coruscant with violent tremors and volcanic eruptions whereas Valkorion ruined Ziost in a span of minutes. Darth Krayt is not in this TIER.
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