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Revold

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@thevivas said:

@revold: “I can't disagree though the extent of damage inflicted and chakra extracted out of Naruto is quite unclear. Momoshiki explictly stated that the chakra extraction was too slow, stopped the process and forced to find another way, so I doubt he barely even absorbed 5% or so.”

Regardless, Naruto had just tanked an attack that was at least two times stronger than a Bijuu Bomb (the two times was never stated but it was stated that Momoshiki fires off jutsu he absorbs stronger than they were before) and was seen already having his chakra absorbed when the movie/manga/anime cut back to Naruto and the Otsusuki duo. We can’t say for certain how much chakra was absorbed, no, but we have to acknowledge the fact that it was.

“Sasuke wasted his tomoe in his Rinne Sharingan teleporting the group in the movie, but in the anime he retained his tomoe so his nerf won't be severe either.”

I’ve heard somewhere that a lot of small changes were made because the movie was in production/final stages before the manga ended. Besides that though, he’s on-panel stated that teleporting between Kaguya’s dimensions drains his power. That was when he was just teleporting himself, his time he unknowingly teleported right people.

“Bottom line Momoshiki has greater arsenal than Naruto with the Rinnegan Paths, and greater chakra/potency than Sasuke after absorbing a Kinshiki (who could wreck worlds according to the databook), not to mention he also absorbed the Eight Tails before that.”

I’m not disagreeing that Momo should be above them. I was just not sure your description was the right way to describe him as being above them due to those factors playing against Naruto and Sasuke.

No Caption Provided

Actually yah my bad here. I've just learned that Momoshiki absorbed half of Naruto's chakra reserves.

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Revold

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He has six paths sage mode.

1) It's not a bottle of cologne you spray on and it wears off over time. That's just not how did paths sage mode works.

Reason why I went through all the forms is to properly define all the various characteristics by their correct terminology so as to isolate what exactly makes Six Paths Sage Mode different, especially from regular Sage Mode. The only apparent difference here is what's called "Six Paths Chakra", and we know that chakra depletes and can run out overtime. Whether Hagoromo's gift actually affects Naruto's soul such that it is able to reproduce this chakra is debatable, and until now I have not found concrete evidence to support such claim.

2) You're saying Kishimoto let Sasuke keep his rinnegan and told Naruto "Ey bro, I want my shit back" after Naruto and Sasuke fought? Nowhere in any novel or manga does it state or suggest Naruto's ever lost his six paths power, and yes that mode Naruto was in in the Momoshiki arc is six paths sage mode and you could tell because or the eyes.

Appeal to author's intention is not really a fair logical deduction that can rightfully justify a claim like this. And yes the eyes are probably the only sign of evidence, but going back to my OP, we can't even say for sure if that is what defines SPSM. If so, why is his Senjutsu sign and TSB only appear when he activate his chakra mode? This problem is more apparent when you consider that Hagoromo do not have to be Jinchuriki of anything to materialise his Senjutsu sign on his forehead and one TSB (his Six Paths staff) in just base form.

3) Naruto was able to touch Toneri's TSB without dying.

Well TSB doesn't always instantly deteriorate anything it touches. We see Sasuke standing on Naruto's TSB with no problems, and Madara's TSB touched Minato's back without even leaving holes in his shirt. From what I can tell it depends on the user's conscious will and power at the time, which makes it a very unreliable point to argue.

Why do people assume Naruto just magically loses things just because they haven't seen it? You don't just assume something is magically lost over time because logic when nothing in the story suggest it's lost except it's absence.

Well I didn't assume anything. The whole point of this entire post is to encourage people to challenge their preconceived assumptions, and that things can often go both ways. There are many things to suggest that he has/has not lost it, but none of them proves it.

The TSB comes with six paths sage mode, but they're not six paths sage mode themselves so it's irrelevant whether they're present or not. The seal is simply a seal, a gift from Hagoromo to take down Kaguya, no correlation to spsm whatsoever.

Truth seeking orbs requires different chakra natures from tailed beasts and six paths senjutsu to produce. I'm not saying that just because it disappears, he no longer has SPSM. I'm saying that because it disappears, there's one less reason to believe that he has.

The seal is literally called Six Paths Yang Seal. If he still has the Six Paths powers, then that might be a reason to believe that he has Six Paths chakra, which might very well mean that he has Six Paths Sage Mode.

The answer is much simpler than you're trying to make it. His eyes show he still has six paths sage mode, Naruto flies several times in the Boruto anime and in The Last and yet people are still questioning whether he has the mode or not. It makes no sense.

I've addressed the eyes above, and also the flying part in my OP. The whole reason why I created this post is that while we claim that it doesn't make sense, we can't find a concrete evidence to proof so. All the evidences we find can be interpreted otherwise, and to prove anything at this point requires me to go through almost everything else as well.

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This list is all over the place.

We can always start somewhere. Which part do you disagree with?

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OP still in construction. Check back later!

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@revold: Anime feats don’t count seeing as they’re non canon

As for the Hagoromo statement it’s

1) too vague

2) just a statement which IMO is not a substitute for feats

Both Ahsura and Indra power levels are just too speculative for me to place on any list. Hype is important but as I said above it also is no substitute for feats

For Naruto (and most others) I consider the anime series more of being the secondary canon rather than non-canon, dismissing only the facts that contradict the primary canon, or make little sense given what the primary canon has established (like Indra having the same Mangekyo as Sasuke). However it'd be unwise to dismiss everything that has happened altogether, especially when it is just explicit illustration of what has been stated in the manga (that Ashura inherited the Sage's body and Hagoromo gave all his chakra to him etc.) The manga also did show what seems like his Kurama avatar with Truth Seeking Orbs. I know this is too speculative for some to accept, but sometimes we simply cannot rely on just the "feats" shown to us explicitly and have to logically infer from various sources to get a full picture.

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Good list. I'd take out ashura and Indra(they're featless) and throw in DMS Kakashi and 8 Gates Guy/Toneri.

this is a really solid list tho I also think that Indra and Ahsura should be taken off the list.

Added DMS Kakashi, 8 Gates Guy and Toneri. Yea I believe they are higher than Indra and Ashura.

As for some Ashura feats:

No Caption Provided

According to Hagoromo, he has bestowed all of the chakra to Ashura previously (which didn't work out as well as he'd liked to). Of course that does not include the Tailed Beasts which Hagoromo dispersed to different locations, but Ashura did inherit some Tailed Beasts chakra (just like how Hagoromo inherited some chakra of the Forbidden Fruit), which I believe is what let him to unlock the Truth Seeking Orbs.

No Caption Provided

In the anime he also has Six Paths Senjutsu and Wood Release Kekkei Genkai, which is already more than what Hashirama can do (Senjutsu but no Six Paths), let alone later in adulthood he even has the Kurama Avatar (as mentioned in OP).

No Caption Provided

He can summon the True Several Thousand Hands. Yes he needed the chakra of the villagers, but that ability is still his. Chakra would probably not be a problem down the road once he learns how to utilise (Six Paths) Senjutsu.

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@revold: We need to have a CaV discussion Madara being stronger than either adult Naruto or adult Sasuke. He's not stronger than them, neither is Momoshiki.

Sure. I've never participated in a CaV before so you have to pardon me if I break any rules and things like that (from what I heard you have to follow certain procedures and stuff).

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@thevivas said:

Not sure I agree with the description for Fused Momoshiki being above both Naruto and Sasuke when Naruto has just finished tanking Momo’s Enhanced Bijuu Bomb attack onto himself before having his chakra absorbed away from him and Sasuke being weakened by teleporting 8 people, coupled with the fact that the two of them couldn’t use any of their strong jutsu due to his Rinnegan.

But solid list nonetheless.

I can't disagree though the extent of damage inflicted and chakra extracted out of Naruto is quite unclear. Momoshiki explictly stated that the chakra extraction was too slow, stopped the process and forced to find another way, so I doubt he barely even absorbed 5% or so. Sasuke wasted his tomoe in his Rinne Sharingan teleporting the group in the movie, but in the anime he retained his tomoe so his nerf won't be severe either.

Bottom line Momoshiki has greater arsenal than Naruto with the Rinnegan Paths, and greater chakra/potency than Sasuke after absorbing a Kinshiki (who could wreck worlds according to the databook), not to mention he also absorbed the Eight Tails before that.

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OP still under construction. Check back later! xD

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@sungsam said:

Revold, might I ask you something?

What did you mean when you said these?

Our current knowledge of math has yet to have a decent grasp on the nature of infinity.

Omniverse etc. Extradimensional/Metaphysical constructs are much more than just a concept of "infinity".

Until you give some sort of a definition for your other terms (Hyperverse etc.), this statement is literally meaningless and does not even claim anything.

Do you think there can be bigger and different levels of infinities?

Thanks

Oh hi. I see you've found my own little hideout where I dive deeper into some of these things myself. xD I didn't remember when and why exactly I said that until I read back this.

I do understand and appreciate where you were coming from though. Higher realities exists because there may be infinite collection of an infinite collection. However, the idea I was trying to stress is that higher realities cannot be "proven" simply from the existence of multiple levels of infinities, because it's a much more complex model with many other factors to consider.

But to answer you, yes I do believe that there are bigger levels of infinity. Mathematicians have been talking about an uncountably infinite set is larger than a countably infinite set for a long time. (IMO "listable" is a better word because "countable" seem to imply a practical limitation rather than a theoretical one (like too much to count)).

However do note that fiction appeals to common sense more than technical truth because no writer will research what is actually true about our universe and reflect on their own. Even things that are conceptually impossible or meaningless can be true in fiction (see my Omnipotence post for examples), let alone going by physical laws that may not even be universal IRL. This is why I'm often sceptical of those who use overly specific physics equations to calculate the feats like F=ma or whatever right.

So basically following in-universe rules is the safest. But if you are like me, not really satisfied with this answer, then that's why I build the system above to accommodate to as many stories as possible.