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Revold

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@galiel said:

@revold

First of all, don't take me to dogmatically, as I am still thinking about it and that's why I am here, so you could correct me if I make a mistake in my judgment or miss something. I only hope we can figure out this one, it is the most vague of Bleach powers.

Not at all. In fact I already pointed out a few of my disagreements so rest assured I'm not holding back. Just don't take me too dogmatically either.

You might be right but it seems as if you are missing something. Light novels don't say much about it, the only thing we know from light novels about Yhwach is that he is currently the Soul King and why Aizen opposed him, what he was going to go etc. There is nothing about the nature of his Almighty because Kubo probably felt as if he explained it well enough. However there is mention that Almighty is Soul King's power, in his hands it was reality warping ability, and he was referred to by Ichibei as "virtually omnipotent".

I suspect that it is just a nod to it's name 全知全能 which means Omnipotence, similar to Uryu's statement, as opposed to straight up reality warping.

I don't think he can warp reality in such sense but has causality manipulation just like Ishida's Anti Thesis, but unlike manipulating cause and effect of what already happened, he can manipulate cause and effect of what will happen in any and all of the futures, change it's possibility, which is what it means to rewritte it. Manipulation of quantum probability, make things that are unlikely to happen occur only requiring of them to be logically possible.

Even then I'm confident that's not how the Almighty works because it has shown to create events that cannot happen due to pure circumstantial chance or probability. For instance I don't forsee any possible future where Yhwach can suddenly revive himself from death. Rather, I believe Yhwach merely applies Auswahlen (which he used to revive Gerard? before) to his future self using Almighty. Meaning he artificially created an alternate future that shouldn't be possible conventionally.

I think we get the best clues from his fight with Ichibei, with his inferior version of the Almighty all he could do is negate the effect of certain abilities in every possible future but he could not manipulate it. To put it simply he was immune to fate, but after absorbing Soul King got limited manipulation of it.

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So I guess what you mean is something like passive version of The Balance. But since I disagreed that it has something to do with fate manipulation, I don't think we're dealing with fate immunity over here either. But we already have some vague ideas:

  • In Yhwach's words: I can "know" everything that I can see, and all the "powers" I know take my side. Not only can they not be used to defeat me, they cannot be used to harm me.
  • In Haschwalth's words: His Majesty's power is the power to see all that is about to take place. And the power his Majesty sees, cannot be used to kill him.

Idk about you, but this reminds me of what Yamamoto said here about Yhwach's power stealing technique.

I still have no idea what happened during the last fight though.

You said that Ishida would have lost his Anti-Thesis abilities if he shot himself with that arrow, but that's not true since that arrow stops only powers and abilities of those who used Auswahlen on those that arrow was made of, to put it simply that arrow would only work on Yhwach and all it would do to Ishida is harming him, not taking his abilities away.

Maybe you're right, but even then Ishida doesn't have to. Anti-thesis "reverse events that have already taken place between two designated points", which can be himself but doesn't have to.

But I don't think Ishida shot himself, I think he definitely shot Yhwach directly, as to why Yhwach couldn't see that happening I have no idea, might have been Kyoka Suigetsu, because it did already fucked with Yhwach's sense of time, so he probably expected that arrow later or earlier or he thought he reversed it but he didn't, or he didn't see Ishida or that arrow in all possible futures because he didn't have power there.

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No he didn't shoot himself because he didn't have to. He can shoot some random place and then reverse the event between Yhwach and the place he shot.

He definitely used Anti-Thesis because that's the only reason why Yhwach couldn't detect it. In fact, Haschwalth even hinted that Anti-Thesis makes Ishida the only one who can challenge Yhwach's power aka The Almighty.

I am convicned, contrary to you, that Yhwach can see and influence only the things all of his future selves see. And none of his future selves could see the arrow coming due to not having power after it hit him thus making the fact that Ishida shot him from behind more important than we think.

That doesn't explain it because because Yhwach would be alerted if he cannot see the future. But no, he could see the future perfectly fine, but because Ishida's power reverses established events that has already happened, he can't see that.

Another counterexample is that he wouldn't be fooled by KS if he can see through the eyes of his future self. Because he eventually got out of KS but yet his past self was still fooled. But if we followed your logic, as long as the future Yhwach can see the truth, so can the past Yhwach.

He can see what he will see in the future. And he did, he saw himself dying in the future but he was able to see it after Kyoka Suigetsu effect has ended, that's the only reason he was able to change it, not before, because what he saw before was screwing with his sense of time. I don't think during that fight he could see clearly, only after Aizen released KS at the moment before Ichigo stabbed him he was able to see it and rewrite it. But Aizen himself doesn't know in which way his powers affect Yhwach, we do know however that it has something to do with his sense of time.

Plese do correct me if I made some mistakes or overlooked something.

Yes no doubt about that, he revived his future self right after he got released from KS (but before he died of course).

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@galiel said:

Second, I fully agree on the weaknesses of the Yhwach's ability to see the future and susceptibility to hypnosis etc. He can see only what he will see in the future.

Oh I don't know if you're having the same idea in mind as me here. He doesn't see the future through the eyes of his future self, if that's the case then he would've seen through the eyes of Yhwach who was eventually free from KS, which apparently he didn't see. He sees the future through the eyes of his present self, which means you only need to hypnotise current Yhwach.

Another factor that made Aizen's plan work is that Yhwach has never been to SS after the Almighty was awakened prior to that. If he did, then he could remember the true future he saw, and realise that the future he's seeing now is fake. So by the time he arrived at SS for the first time, Aizen's KS was already in place. Of course he may have been to SS a thousand years ago but he can't see that far into the future.

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Really appreciate your comment. If you have more info from the LN feel free to share because I've not read them.

I'm just going to address our differing points for brevity.

@galiel said:

What I think you missed (I am not sure) is that Yhwach can only influence his own future, otherwise he could reshape all the worlds just by thinking about it, without using power. You might have implied this with space limitations but I don't think that's it.

To clarify, what do you mean exactly by "can only influence his own future"? He can influence Ichigo's future by cutting his Bankai into half, which stayed broken even after he left.

And if that's true, maybe he can't make everyone dead, but does that mean he can still make himself omnipotent or indestructible? Or is what he can do still limited by his Reiatsu in which case, that's basically my interpretation: the Almighty applies what he can do in the present to the future. So conversely any inability he has in the present, applies to the future as well.

Since Ichigo was stronger, how could he so simply break his bankai as it were nothing, while he barely withstood his hybrid shikai which forced him to use Almighty? Additionalyl Ichigo said he didn't sense any reiatsu, if it is what you say it is Ichigo would feel some reiatsu since that's how you say Yhwach influences the future, with his own power, if it was his raw power that broke the sword even trough the future, Ichigo would be able to sense it.

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To withstand his the blade his passive reiatsu has to be greater than it, but to break the blade he just need to output enough Reiatsu.

Ichigo couldn't sense Reiatsu from present Yhwach because it was not him that broke the blade, it was past Yhwach that did it, at least that's how I interpreted it.

But now that I think about it, when Orihime tried to restore it, they say it was broken in the coming future. Which means even by then the blade wasn't technically broken, like the effect from the future somehow traces back to the present (and past). Yeah it doesn't make any sense but let's see if you have any good idea on this.

Additionally when Orihime told Rukia what happened it seemed that she strongly implied to Rukia that he can indeed rewritte the future, at which Rukia said how that would mean there is no limit to what he can do.

Well Rukia only said what she said based on what she heard from Orihime, so she probably isn't implying what you think she is. And if you were Rukia and hear someone with the power to manipulate the future, wouldn't you have possibly said something similar like he can do anything?

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TWO THINGS TO ADD:

1. Since Yhwach absorbed Mimihagi's powers and fused with this Divine being (before absorbing the Soul King) wouldn't that imply that Yhwach absorbed Mimihagi's powers of Stillness? The Auswhalen leaves "silver" in the hearts of Quincy which eventually kills them, and the arrow that hits Yhwach is called "Silver of Stillness". Wouldn't that mean that Yhwach's silver that Ryuken had from Uryu's mother mutated and acquired the "Stillness" powers after Yhwach absorbed Mimihagi? Would that mean that Mimihagi who can also see the future, let himself be absorbed to achieve this outcome that Yhwach's Almighty couldn't see?

2. After Yhwach sees Ichigo arrive in Soul Society he comments that he knew that Tsukishima would repair his sword.

While Yhwach was talking to Mimihagi, he was referring to the Soul King himself when he said he could see the future. Still Silver was said to be able to stop the powers on its own without the help of Mimhagi. Also if Mimihagi could choose to not be absorbed they wouldn't need the arrow to defeat him in the first place.

IIRC Yhwach forsaw that Ichigo will come back with the sword repaired, but never mentioned how it was repaired. So he was unable to forsee Tsukishima's powers.

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