Revold

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"Ultra Instinct" is Weaker than SSBKKx20 ?

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Here's a legitimate theory I've been thinking of for a while. The "Ultra Instinct" Goku who fought against Jiren is not a good reflection of his true strength. Right before he was about to fight Jiren, Goku was able to shake the infinite world of void, a "Jiren level" feat, and tore through dimensions with sheer force, also similar to Jiren's power which is said to transcends time itself. This is similar to Goku Black's feat of tearing apart spacetime itself, who is stated by the director Kido to be the strongest non-GoD character, and obviously those above GoD doesn't count. So if that statement still holds true in ToP, Jiren and UI Goku would be stronger than most, if not all GoDs, making them universe level (not unlikely looking at their feats).

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However, if you look at the Kefla fight, UI Goku is stated to be inferior to LSS2 Kefla, by pure physical stats like attack potency, durability and speed, while his reaction and fighting skills still holds superior. LSS Kefla is around SSB level (both slightly stronger than Super Vegito), and LSS2 Kefla would be around twice of that. LSS Kefla it not spirit bomb level (check out @dottiestmoon's thread).

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If fatigued UI Goku is weaker than LSS2 Kefla, a fresh UI Goku wouldn't be suddenly Jiren level, would he? While he does have the UI technique to match him, he still must have some amount of power to match someone like Jiren. The explanation is obvious and straightforward: Goku did absorb the Spirit Bomb/Genki Dama, which gives him a temporary boost to give Jiren a harder time than SSBKK.

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But if Spirit Bomb-amped UI Goku can give Jiren trouble, why couldn't SSBKK-pushed Spirit Bomb? Because 1, Goku has the UI technique on top of his raw power, which is actually the more important aspect of the transformation and 2, Goku probably pushed the Spirit Bomb with just Kaio-Ken x10. Kaio-Ken requires huge Ki control, which probably increases with the multiplier. This is why you see when Goku uses Kaio-Ken x20 against Jiren, he uses it in short bursts and depowers quickly to gain back his speed and agility. Note that he did the same against Fused Zamasu, which might imply that he already learned x20 (not unlikely when he went back to present several times to prepare himself).

So conclusion, SSBKKx20 might be superior in raw strength, but loses in agility, reaction, and even duration he can use it for. Remember, power is not all about potency (attack potency charts etc), it is also about abilities like instinct and fighting skills. UI might still be stronger than SSBKKx10, but I'll leave that to your headcanons.

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If you are still not convinced, this isn't the first time for an over-representation of a transformation at awakening. Suppressed Beerus, after thrashing SS3 Goku, he said that "I'd have to fuse with Vegeta, even then I don't think I could win". Beerus actually used more power against SS God Goku than that, so is SS God stronger than Super Vegito? No, in fact SS God Goku is only slightly stronger than base Vegito, scaling from the Kefla fight. This might be because he was given the Ki of the five saiyans, Vegeta and Gohan included so its not a laughable amount. Which also could explain how he can match Beerus' supposed "universe level" punches. After that, he had to consume his own stamina. Remember, we don't know how credible Goku's statement is, so he might be over/underestimating, but this is just a supporting argument, so don't worry about it.

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thebuckaronatr

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Alsimmons77

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SuperGoku17

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ignVela

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DrPepperMan

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Edited By DrPepperMan

....what?

If Kefla can beat SSBKKX20 and get destroyed by UI goku, and Jiren can fodderize SSBKKX20 yet gets stalemated by UI goku, then yes, UI is obviously more powerful than SSBKKX20.

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Skrskr

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It was literally stated already that goku loses power when he tries to attack in UI since he hasn’t accessed the attacking half of it.

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stormshadow_x

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I still don't see how it doesn't count as a form.

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Revold

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Edited By Revold

Basically:

Fatigued UI < LSS2 Kefla <= SSBKK×10 <= Imperfect UI < SSBKK×20 <= SB-amped imperfect UI (>= SSBKK×10 + SB)

in terms of raw potency/stats, ignoring the time limit on SSBKK×20 and the UI technique. The instananeous bursts of SSBKK×20 can have or withstand physically heavier punches, but UI might still be able keep up with Kefla, and even Jiren but only with his SB power up.

Which makes sense since UI is not mastered.

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Revold

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....what?

If Kefla can beat SSBKKX20 and get destroyed by UI goku, and Jiren can fodderize SSBKKX20 yet gets stalemated by UI goku, then yes, UI is obviously more powerful than SSBKKX20.

What i was saying is that SSBKKx20 can be physically stronger in terms of raw potency, but UI might still be more combat efficient. Also, UI can only keep up with Jiren (not stalemate because he still lost in the end) is because he was amped by SB, which makes him equal if not stronger than SSBKKx20, and without the SSBKKx20 time limit too.

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DeathHero61

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Interesting, so UI at its peak is strong enough to contend with Jiren, but it loses power since Goku hasn't mastered it.

In addition maybe Goku's is keeping up a little better because zenkai boosts.

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Alsimmons77

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Edited By Alsimmons77

@revold:

Fatigued UI < LSS2 Kefla <= SSBKK×10 <= Imperfect UI < SSBKK×20 <= SB-amped imperfect UI (>= SSBKK×10 + SB)

That makes no sense at all SSBKKx20 is certainly not above LSSJ2 Kefla and SSBKKx10 obviously not on par or even above, let alone both obviously not above the more mastered UI version Goku used against her.

From where do you even got 3 different versions of UI? There is just the less mastered version of UI against Jiren and the more mastered version of UI against Kefla, fatigued which you for whatever absurd reason put at the lowest spot would be the latter, SB-amped(...) imperfect UI which you for whatever absurd reason put at the top the former.

in terms of raw potency/stats, ignoring the time limit on SSBKK×20 and the UI technique. The instananeous bursts of SSBKK×20 can have or withstand physically heavier punches, but UI might still be able keep up with Kefla, and even Jiren but only with his SB power up.

What?

Which makes sense since UI is not mastered.

Nothing here makes much sense at all...

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Revold

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@alsimmons77: Well 2 versions were shown by now, the SB amped one against Jiren and the fatigued one against Kefla. Goku was so fatigued, that Base Kefla beats SS God surpressed, but Vados and Champa implied that a fresh SS God would've beaten her. So LSS Kefla would be about SSB level, maybe abit more but probably not 10x of that.

The third UI (the real one) is an estimate given by me, which is pretty much what this whole theory is about...

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mimisalome

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Edited By mimisalome

Is DB power level terminology competing with the American's new gender-type standard for the most alphabet letters they can cram inside their acronyms?

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MorbusGrav

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Revold

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Episode 123 kind of confirms this. When Goku goes Kaio-Ken this time, Beerus noted that he was going all out, implying that Goku can now sustained Kaio-Ken x20 for a prolonged period. Even then, he still powers back down to Blue when he wasn't in combat with Jiren.

Jiren struggled against the two even though this time, he revealed his true power. Jiren isn't nerfed, it's just that Goku and Vegeta got stronger. Jiren himself noted that "his strikes are sharper". I won't be surprised if he is comparing to UI, since UI's strikes aren't exactly sharp (Kefla noted that it was nothing). Because he hasn't mastered the attack UI yet. UI just dodges very well that surpassed the limits of reaction speeds.