He's not taking anything. Right afterward, Naruto and Sasuke proceed to fight each other with their respective new powers and Hagoromo never returned again. Meaning he never took shit. This scan is most likely something you took from the manga purposefully lacking any kind of context, because nothing supports your claims and it's that simple.

@batmanplusjay:

Before continuing let's take a step back and ask: Are you open to the possibility that Naruto might not be holding back? That is, are you capable of being convinced given enough evidence?

Yeah, but that's not gonna happen since your entire argument from the ground up is flawed.

If your answer is no, then further discussions is meaningless. No amount of evidence will convince you otherwise. If yes, then you need to ask what kind of evidence are you expecting before you can be convinced.

Show me when the form(or source, whatever it is you came up with)was taken away, which you can't. Show me Naruto really struggling against Toneri to a point he needed to use the form.

Naruto visually struggling is about the most directly way of proving that he's trying or struggling.

My lord. He also made struggling facial expressions aginst Delta, and he quite literally held back significantly against her. He also makes hella facial expressing pretty much any time he fights regardless if it's Momoshiki or Shin's clone children, so why you're relying on his facial expressins instead of what he's actually doing(which contradicts what you claim his facual expressions is telling you) is completely irrelevant and I don't even know why you're bringing it up.

It's really the simple fact that these "facial expressions" are so easily contradicted by what he's doing. You claim his facial expressions mean he's actually struggling, but obviously one punching Toneri in base and toying with him for 2 to 3 minutes in a weaker form blatantly contradicts that. The argument itself is so weak I don't know why it's even being brought up.

Any other evidence, such as the ones you've presented where he ended the battle, are less-direct and not definitive. For example, an MMA fighter can end a match in a single punch, but that doesn't mean he's holding back.

So much damn headcanon, this is what's annoying about you. It's less arguing with facts and more debating what either of us personally believe people would do in a certain situation. That's why I don't take your arguments seriously, beause you lack anything concrete. You actually keep trying to debate against concrete evidence with "Hm, but did Naruto "really" stomp him? His facial expressions clearly show he was trying very very very very hard and considering whats at stake of course he's trying his hardest" like my god. Your arguments literally reek of uncertainty and speculation but you're still debating like you have anything that's gonna help you prove your point. I tell you that Naruto actually factually did hold back, as you can clearly see he's in bijuu sage mode with no evidence supporting he ever lost his spsm, and you'll respond with "nah but how tho theres a lot at stake", that isn't an argument.

That's you trying to debate with indisputable facts just by using your own logic/headcanon, this is fiction. Using speculaion to combat facts never work, those "um I think maybe" arguments should only make an appearance when things are uncertain/unconfirmed in the topic at hand. Here nothing suggests the mode should be gone to begin with and never has, you just woke up one day and questioned it just because he never used it despite him using it without issue any time before and after that movie.

My take is that you're logical approach to this problem is completely reversed. Meaning you've already made up your mind that he still has SPSM, and then attempt to find any explanation that can justify that conclusion

"Any explanation" lmao. Sure. Because always having the form without any form of proof whatsoever to suggest he ever lost it is just "any" explanation, hm? My take is you don't want him to have the form for that movie, I don't know why or what it'll ever prove since he clearly has the form now and has never lost it, but that's clesrly what you think. And you're scambling around looking for any argument that'll help you "support" it regardless how dumb it is.

Those arguments can range from facial expressions, what you personally believe should have happened (compared to what did), Naruto one shotting him while "left vulnerable", Naruto losing a brief exchange with Toneri in his base form when he never bothered to transform to instantly whoop Toneri in the first place, etc. and I'm sure you'll whip up a few more like these eventually.

Others have suggested that it's a art mistake, while you take the holding-back argument.

And those same people only think like you, The Last has some known mistakes so now you're willing to use that to now try and say there's another mistake in the case of his form even tho there isn't and you clearly can't prove there is regardless how hard you try. Both the Novel and the movie back this up. He specifically chose to go into bijuu sage mode, and it wasn't because he was restricted.

And then, you continue to work backwards to find any evidence that remotely justify this argument, which results in you cherry-picking the final moment, ignoring the fact that the battle has already gone on for a while with Toneri mostly on the upper hand.

Lmao, "Ignoring the fact the battle has already gone on for a while with Toneri on the upper hand". Toneri had the upper hand? Now you're willing to even lie about that too now, huh.

It's right now at this exact moment nothing you say gets taken seriously.

I want spectators to realize what you just said here so I'll repeat it again:

Apparently Toneri had the upper hand the entire fight. Naruto was not the one with the advantage, that was indeed Toneri who was clearly stronger between the two.

Anyone who watched the fight and then read the stupid shit you just said here will see the issue even if you pretend you don't. I knew you were backed into a corner but damn.

Needless to say, this approach is very dishonest.

Ironic.

Rather than giving a genuine analysis on whether Naruto was actually trying, you've already settled on a conclusion and work backwards to justify it, tunnel-visioning only on the evidence that does justify, instead of weighing the evidence with counter-evidences.

There are no counter evidences, you have none while claiming you have shit and that's been my biggest issue with you since we started this debate.

Now to be fair, you do have reason to believe that he still has SPSM. And that is that he has SPSM both before and after.

And the fact that he never lost the power to begin with.

Impossible to have gotten his seal stolen because he still has the seal after the events in the scan that was posted when he fought Sasuke, where he only lost his seal due to him and Sasuke blowing each other's arms off, both losing their seals.

As much as this may indicate that he likely have SPSM in The Last as well, you cannot deny that it is impossible otherwise.

Impossible otherwise what?

It is very important to keep your mind open to this possibility, or else you would fall into the trap of reverse-engineering your way into proving a pre-determined conclusion.

Take your own advice.

If at this point you still think that Naruto was holding back, you can ask around the community to see how many agrees with you.

Yeah, and now you're resorting to "other ppl agree wit me so I must be right". This is just sad. You're not the first and certainly won't be the last I've dealt with that had your views, so I don't gotta ask for anything. And this same argument applies to you as well as I can also say the same, go ask around the community to see how many agree with you that he lost his six path sage mode.

You are not the first one to have this idea, and same did change their minds after reconsiderations. We can even make a poll: Was Naruto holding back in The Last.

And you're not the first with yours. Only difference is factual evidence only supports one side, and clearly it ain't yours.

Honestly, the first thing anyone would do is to examine the visual expressions because that is the most direct. Whether he won, in what matter or fashion, really falters when confronting such direct proof. In other words, you can theorize all you want about how casual he was based on how he won the fight, but in the end a single picture of a serious look is still more of a proof.

And this is just appalling to me how you can sit here and really admit from your mouth, there's stronger evidence in individual picture frames of people making facial expressions than there is in the actual feat/story itself. This is honestly just mind boggling.

By the way, I don't know why you keep arguing about base form, the fight when he actually lost. We're talking about the battle on Moon when he won, when he used BSM.

Because when he lost in base he never bothered to transform before hand even though going by your logic, with so much at stake and his girlfriend getting stolen, that should've been the first move he made, not going through the trouble of dodging chakra blasts mid air using shadow clones in just his base form.

For the last time, the seal he took was the source of the chakra, but the chakra that the source already produced still remains in their body, which is why you still see them able to use their powers. However, after Naruto exhausted all that existing chakra in his body, he couldn't regenerate new Six Paths chakra because the source was returned to Hagoromo.

Explain Naruto having the seal in his final fight then. Also explain why Hagoromo took Naruto's source and not Sasuke's. Also explain how Naruto got it back. Also explain why he can supposedly only enter when combined with the Bijuu but can't enter in base, I'd like to see more than "becuz residue" for this explanation as well. And also show proof of this residue existing and show it being the reason he could go spsm

@lexa59: To be fair chakra was imbedded in Sasuke sword when he’s about to attack so Momoshiki had just finished eating the chakra fruit when Sasuke sword hit his neck

Otherwise I belief Sasuke would’ve been able to seriously injure Momoshiki had he not eaten the fruit

Also with Naruto that was a rusty Naruto in Gaiden a time where Boruto and Sarada were still at the academy, this naruto had not been in a fight in a long time so if anything that just supports Sasuke at that time can injure Naruto if they fought

At least a few months and arcs pass and Naruto had trained to get back in shape and gain his battle sense since he didn’t know when another enemy would attack the village since the Nue / Sumire incident

@lexa59:

Yes. Sasuke is a kenjutsu user he pours chakra into his blade when attacking like Future Trunks does with pouring Ki into his sword to cut Frieza.

Sasuke was literally about to swing his chakra amped sword at MS Shin but the sword meant for MS Shin was pushed into Naruto instead using Shin Hax.

Just like against Shin / Naruto; Sasuke in the past poured his chakra into his sword to pierce Juubi madara ^ even though he is not even weielding sword when it pierced madara

So a Rusty Naruto being injured by a chakra amped sword from Sasuke means Sasuke can harm him.

The 4 tails is a example of Orochimaru having weaker chakra than 4 Tails Naruto thus his chakra amp Blade not being able to pierce through KN4 cloak.

While in future Sasuke has similar AP to Naruto and his chakra amped sword can pierce Naruto.

But as I said before this was a time period where Naruto was rusty and had not been in a serious fight in a while. Sasuke being superior to him at this time makes sense because Sasuke never stopped improving, and caught up to and surpasses a rusty Naruto.

At least a few months and arcs pass and Naruto had trained to get back in shape and gain his battle sense since he didn’t know when another enemy would attack the village since the Nue / Sumire incident. So during chunin exams / the otsutsuki aliens invasion Naruto = Sasuke.

Only the speed he has somewhere disappears, when even KM1 Naruto instantly appeared in front of Kisame.

That seems like a oversimplification. Naruto is way beyond 4th Shinobi War KCM speed.

What you are talking about and I guess your argument is flashy feats of just showing him moving incredibly fast.

He moved like a blur of Yellow light in this episode of Boruto anime.

https://youtu.be/Au1FFVbPNns

But it seems irrelevant considering you think KCM 4th war is faster than Hokage six paths sage mode lol what are we doing here