red_ruby_petal

So to start

The first set of counters was a complete fact check and goal check set by Watcher and YJ

They started off completely strong in this first counter they attempted, and where I think Naronu fell short on what type of argument he was attempting to make.

Naronu targeted whether Watcher's abilities were through the mind or not. And some clarifications as well. The same with YJ in concern for the stats. And this was done on his first post.

It was undeniable already at that point on how his abilities work without the compass or watch, just solely from Watcher's link here. And the rest of Watcher's explanation speaks volumes that he has the more clear understanding of how Paradox works, what he does and why he does them. So Naronu more or less lost to a knowledge check here. I think it could have helped if Watcher established all this in his first post so we'd actually more or less get to where an argument starts so I am not completely putting Naronu out here, but I am also guessing that these contestants could do as much as they can to understand the opponent or character they are dealing with by checking respect threads.

The rest against Watcher were some clarifications and broken links, which I'd hoped would have been asked about before posting so we can already get into an argument instead of having to clarify too much.

Why I think Naronu started off with a weak counter

Where I really think was weak on Naronu's part was how he tried to counter YJ. Trying to tackle the stats,

YJ had already established this

And as he said, the biggest strength was never the stats, it was their means of getting stronger. YJ responded well accordingly to.

So to me, this was already very much a very convincing first post counter, which to me was more of because Naronu's lack of being able to establish a strong stance at the very start which was prone to a heavy fact check and a counter. First point being Watcher's stronger knowledge on Paradox, and the 2nd being that he didn't attack the very thing YJ aiming to beat him with, which is adaptability.

The biggest weakness for me was the claim that Watcher and YJ's strategy was complicated, to which when I read it, it was not.

Coming from Naronu from these 3 lines nearing his conclusive statement and in it. From sections "Both" and "A Simple Strategy". Which I will be labelling by number.

1. Quite frankly this is a ridiculous plan which requires so many different movements and actions from both Gods, with the grand outcome of creating a swarm of bodies that can threaten Storm?

2. Unlike the complicated strategy employed by the Gods, which has multiple moving parts, requires both of them to move to activate multiple abilities, as well as needing a level of teamwork that they have not indicated they should possess.

3. Comparing the complexity of the two strategies it is clear which one will be enacted first, with both Gods being completely destroyed while they're still figuring out which dead spirits to turn into Sentinels.

I did not get this impression even once reading their posts.

These were watcher's and YJ's conclusions

I am gonna get into this later, because by no means do I get the impression that their team ever needed teamwork to function nor was it a present argument. Its more like they just showed their own character's feats with a neat feature of being able to turn some summons into sentinels. They will both play a role than can threaten their opponent on their own but their combined efforts make it even harder.

What they argued was that their abilities synergize well, and that's different from strategy so that topic was not needed to be a present argument unless the opponent argues in a way that they'd need strategy to beat Marie. And that was not the case.

So there wasn't really many "steps" to be claimed. If you felt that time manipulation was the cause for the complicated strategy, I could honestly understand that, but its not the impression I initially felt to which you'd have to convince me or the person arguing that its more complicated because he added that to the mix. Instead the person argued that it was never complicated in the first place.

Anyways, the next phase is Kali will continue to respawn the dead spirits and Janus will continue to convert (some of) those dead spirits to Prime Sentinels, but while that is happening they will also be throwing their time manipulation into the mix:

I think this statement could have been strong, but the following points afterwards just felt like they were claims to be complicated.

Because my impression of someone who controls time isn't someone who gets a more complicated strategy. The impression I get is someone who has complete control of the order, how, and when they will enact their strategy, which essentially makes it even easier and less complicated for them.

The 3rd statement statement you said which I numbered, makes me wonder whether there was even an understanding of how time manipulation works, because you would not be a step ahead of someone with those powers if that was your sole reasoning as to why theirs was complex in the first place. To which I think you should have explored exclusively your time manipulation immunity as your game winning factor since that is only adding more points for you to lose the argument on. I actually would have appreciated a scan on time immunity specifically, or a highlight on the scan, because that I feel is what's exactly winning you the game here.

Watcher nearing his last posts "clearing the misunderstanding" pretty much says everything and the last sentence detailing exactly how he'll be using time manipulation.

With this in mind, there’s literally no limit to how much we can prepare for this fight. Hours, days, weeks, etc topped on with the fact we can slow down/stop time and are FTL anything we need to get done will be done quickly. Raise an entire planets worth of dead people? I have an army of clones all with the same divine weapon, and as much time as I want to prepare it so I could having over 200 billion lanterns is an inevitability.

The sky is the limit with what we could do, especially given the fact that I have total omniscience with Rasiel. Which holds all the knowledge in the universe, even when alterations to time occurred Beelzebub (counterpart to Rasiel) was able to tell what happened despite living in a new reality.

I would also have foresight Hei, so I can know the future and plan accordingly.

The beauty of it is this is the extreme adaptability this affords us. We don’t have to stick to one strategy, the “backup” plan of going back in time affords us literally infinitely more options. This is because we can prepare as much and as long as we like, have prior knowledge, and can try again an infinite amount of times. Me and my partner just have to prove we can win to say we will win, even if it takes a billion tries or years. The absolute BEST case scenario for you is getting locked in an eternal stalemate, which is still you not winning

If your character has complete understanding of everything that's going to happen, how is anything going to be complicated. You either completely counter the ability itself, or you never get ahead in strategy.

How does Marie counter the enemy team in the next post

Now this is where I got more curious, because even if the first post does fall weak and susceptible to counters, the next post could fully tackle the important parts. To me though, Naronu fell short on this one too.

So how does Naronu deal with adaptation, the other abilities, the astral dress, even the mask. I think Watcher stood his ground here which was good, because unless its exclusively ruled out to be that way, its up to the people arguing to convince.

This sounds more like his opinion you would be a step above the mask of eternity, rather than a ruling that you will be. That would obviously be something that is to be argued depending on how you guys interpret each’s feats.

how does he deal with the time manipulation argument, which actually was very well put together by the YJ

Additionally, not once have we mentioned utilizing time manipulation on Curie, her time manipulation immunity actively works against her in this fight.

Due to her time manipulation immunity, when we reset ourselves, the battlefield, the summons, etc, Curie will be the ONLY one not impacted. We can reset and start this battle from the top as many times as we'd like, whereas Marie is facing a non-stop barrage of Kali, Janus, and both of our hordes of summons. We can hold out for decades if we really wanted too, can Marie do the same?

The way I see this, basically no matter what plan you come up with, its hopeless to win, so Marie would have to render everything they do in every possibility useless as the game winning argument, but there were some strong arguments too regarding attack potential of the team. I wanna see how it gets countered in the next post.

Now the few things that do get established.

True Ancestors are directly powered by the Earth itself, it's a constant fact Arcueid is stronger so instant, if you have evidence post it don't waste my or the voters time with pointless lines. But I will say it's funny that you bring this up considering your ally's gear, but hey teamwork has definitely not been the God's strong suite this battle.

So we've established it comes from earth and is an instant ability but for the rest of the inquiries asked by Watcher, it didn't feel answered. It wasn't what I looked forward to seeing as a response.

There is also in which Watcher compared it to AST, which I've been informed, his character's abilities are put directly above that.

Which is why...... this should have not been the paragraph to start with. It could have just been about defending why AST isn't relevant.

Not that the AST is relevant in anyway to this battle (more on that later in the respective section). But let's talk about that second point, "being conceptual is the bare minimum" or the idea that an ability with weaker showings that is conceptual becomes superior to an ability with better showings that is not. Take for example Gae Bolg, a conceptual noble phantasm wielded by Cu Chulainn, it innately carries conceptual causality manipulation, being able to reverse the cause and effect of striking through the heart of its target. This conceptual manipulation is explicitly stated to be incredibly strong, being able to match that of Fragarach. If one is to resist this conceptual ability does it then make them resistant to all forms of non-conceptual causality manipulation?

I am not gonna quote the rest, but this did not feel like there was any point mentioning this whatsoever. I think Naruno fell extremely short on this one. I'd be saying the same thing as Watcher said here, completely in the perspective of a voter too.

Even while it feels like you guys were on your hairs, these were valid points. Which I don't think the first rebuttal by Watcher was made to counter your points specifically but rather, that some part of it just felt like a needlessly made argument. I actually wasn't sure if this was supposed to be a counter a point you made on causality control but I guess he got it covered.

I will do a 2nd post on this later, this took some time.. this is really just the beginning portion.

I'll explain in a bit but my vote goes to the duo, solely due to the fact that the 2nd post of Naruno feels like the weakest argument for me to where everything felt like a one sided argument till then.

If his last post was the more solid one, I don't think I should feel compelled to think he wins because of a lack of there is to argue to.

Im quite sure David can't hurt Wesker significantly enough, specially when the guy takes rockets to the face.

You can consider Meliodas's dc already as a winning factor, then you count his dark magic which I believe also stops people from healing.

@blaze-: idk warhammer

Every other time he's cut beyond blades length, he's always done it with extremely fast and clean strikes with almost no resistance behind it. I don't think his blade travelled slower than what he cut at all.

Can you clarify what you mean if you don't mind.

@crapser: Regarding H/F blades if I was following your debate correctly.

There should be a lot more strength that comes behind those strikes than you may think. Its really not the fact that H/F blades ignore durability at all. Its known to be able to weaken things. That is why the concept of the game when fighting certain enemies revolves around Raiden weakening their armor first before he can really start cutting them. Its a damage over time kind of mechanic as opposed to ignoring durability. Sundowner had to get gashed first before being completely cut down by Raiden. So I think Armstrong was a case of, you can't really weaken his nanomachines because they strengthen as a complete reaction, to where the solution was trying to damage him before he could use his nanomachines, which we saw in Sam's fight.

So the fact that they've been able to do those feats like cutting huge sized objects, especially Metal Gears in one go has a lot of testament to their skill, speed and strength all together, and not just the blade's properties. I do want to back up that the concept of cutting things way beyond blade's length has only been shown in Rising even when the H/F blade has existed way back. I recall correctly that the same concept of molecular weakening or something similar was said in previous Metal Gear games. Its likely air pressure honestly, and Rising has been known to flex its characters striking cutting power quite a lot.

Kinda cool to see this thread revived. I was replaying the games lately.

For clarifications though, full gear wouldn't mean the Metal Gears are included. Full gear is stuff that's more or less practical with their mission, but more or less endgame. Its how you would think they would use the gear and backup they have. I think Venom dropping vehicles is fine depending on how you think he'll use it, but it probably won't be practical given the scenario.

I am also not considering counter intelligence. I am not really well versed in the Solid Snake series of things as much as I am with Big Boss and Venom, but I don't want like a scenario where Otacon hacks and stops others intel or gives away positions based on how Venom is calling Pequad.

I just want a scenario where, you were playing the game, and you know what kind of information and gear each respective Snake managed to get in their mission.

@zetsu-san@thebestofthebest@gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps@higherpower@thewatcherking

Since you guys are online, and I think some of you will disagree of course, but just tell me what you think.

My take on piercing resistance.

Well, this likely has been done a million times, but I just wanna put it out as what I feel in the vine lately and what to me makes sense and now that I've come back ( sort of ).

Something I at least found with comicvine that I've seen compared to other debating sites is at least ( to some degree ), there is some believable logic to it while still keeping it in a certain level of fiction that both parties can understand. I am not saying that for all debaters, but debaters I follow have this sense and I like about the vine. The thing that has more or less perplexed me though was the whole piercing resistance thing.

So from what I know, piercing resistance is treated as its own resistance in the vine. This includes bullets, swords and anything sharp. From what I understand as to why this is being treated this way, is because its almost like they are treated as two different things because of how consistently "inconsistent" it is from blunt force. Besides Wonder Woman, Kratos is a powerful example for this. Because of characters like this, it can be generally accepted that against "them", bows and bullets work, whereas punches and hits won't. Its part of their consistency and its part of what they are. To argue they could resist more than that of that specific attack means arguing against their own character consistency. Because of this, the model applies to more characters than just them. If said character hasn't shown to tank a bullet, they can't tank a bullet even if they tanked something that should make them look bulletproof.

Now this is where I want to discuss. The problem for me in piercing resistance is because its a model that allows supposedly much less powerful characters to damage characters several tiers above them. I've seen this brought up, if x character doesn't have piercing resistance, they can't tank y character, even if he tanked a nuke and y character is a street leveler. If I were a writer personally, I wouldn't want this nuke tanking character to be pierced by knives. So for me, this makes this almost feel illogical. The place I feel arguments should draw from in comicvine, is to be as logical as possible with the most logical deductions. This argument I feel often gets dismissed but there is a lot of validity towards it if I am being honest. When it comes to durable characters like Hulk as a prime example, they are usually able to tank both. Why because I think even in the writers perspective, theres always a correlation to both physical attacks. Hulk has tanked big hits from big hitters, so he should tank bullets, snipers etc and swords. Its not the case of the character himself having piercing resistance, but more of because he's had more time to show off his durability compared to a lot of other people.

I am applying this to those who haven't shown to have any piercing weakness like Kratos and Wonder Woman do. Piercing resistance to me starts looking like the moment something turns sharp, its properties completely change. When you couldn't previously break down a piece of stone with a metal hammer, you forge that same hammer to a knife and that stone suddenly gets cut like butter. I am not even saying there'd be resistance, I am literally saying that the whole piercing resistance thing makes it feel like everything needs to be proven to tank something sharp in order not get cut down. Since this stone hasn't shown any resistance towards cutting, the knife just slides it into 2, just like butter.

So what really is piercing resistance.

In my opinion, it shouldn't really be a thing. Why this happens to both Wonder Woman and Kratos. Well there is something I believe shouldn't be differentiated from sharp and blunt. Its that for anyone, us and writers, its hard to quantify if we really want to compare the two. Piercing is essentially putting all that force into a small area and makes it more destructive. Its basically blunt but smaller. If its that simple then why is it so hard to compare? Simply put, its because sharp things comes in all shapes and forms. Its easier to compare a smaller fist with a bigger fist, but not to compare a fist to a knife. Its very easy to compare Thanos' fist to hulk's fist, but not to compare Hulk's fist to Aquaman's trident. Hulk could be 100x stronger than Aquaman and could draw blood from Thanos, but since Aquaman carries a trident, he's already in possession of something that could easily multiply his damage output which means he could possibly do the same to Thanos.

Disclaimer, I am not putting that example like I am aware of their feats in comics. I am just trying to give an example is all.

And thats honestly what it is. People with piercing weapons are already at a big advantage in spite of their vastly inferior strength. Exactly why people who carry guns and knives are much scarier than those at their bear fists. Where am I getting at? Piercing is supposed to only be something that gives said character a bigger advantage in numbers and output. Its not supposed to be an extra resistance people need to show to have tanked. Its at its core, completely physical.

There are a number of factors that could stop a piercing weapon from working.

• Weapon durability ( if the weapon itself is like glass and will shatter against metal )
• Character strength ( if the character isn't strong enough to output the force )
• Weapon sharpness ( if the weapon isn't sharp enough )
• The part that is striked ( the neck and eye will always be softer than anywhere else in the body )
• How effective are they at using piercing attacks ( technique to use swords and weapons are also important )

Why I think we should use logic more.

So we have Deapool movie's Juggernaut. He never showed piercing resistance ( I think ). Maybe bullets, I can't recall the film, but for arguments sake, lets say he didn't tank any piercing attack. I think its clear from the film, his helmet is much stronger than steel. A knife or sword likely wouldn't even be able to pierce that helmet at all. Its our logic to think that way by just looking at the guy.

So the nuke or planetary argument everyone brings up. Theres a large amount of validity from it in my opinion. No one from tiers below should be able to pierce people tiers above. What happens to Wonder Woman especially her specifically, is a problem with her and the writer to where I think outside of comicvine people, anyone things thats illogical. I know theres that argument of "fiction isn't logic", but tbh, theres always some degree of logic that comes with it.

I think, we should use feats for piercing, but in a different way.

There are exceptions of course like Wolverine. Adamantium on its own is a high tier metal even if its on a street level character. Adamantium has shown to cut down super strong characters like Hulk. How did we know that Wolverine could do that? How did he stab Thanos? Its simple, we knew this from feats.

Wolverine has proven to be able to cut down planetary monsters, high tier beings. He's shown to be that powerful. He's shown something that other people haven't.

I highlighted that statement because I think, rather than people say ( this character should have piercing resistance ), people should really say that can this character cut down that character. I say this because while piercing resistance isn't always going to be around, there is always almost 100% going to exist cutting feats with a character who uses a cutting weapon. Its more logical to think that a street level character with a cutting weapon can't cut down a mid tier with 0 piercing resistance feats but has tanked a city sized shockwave attack.

All I am saying is that I think that before a character can be said to cut down someone durable, they would have to at first cut down something that is as durable. Going back to this.

• Weapon durability
• Character strength
• Weapon sharpness
• The part that is striked
• How effective are they at using piercing attacks

Piercing ALWAYS has a lot of factors. The character could be strong, but their weapon and technique is lacking. The character could be weak, but the weapon is super sharp and their technique is godlike. It could be both but the weapon durability sucks and does absolutely nothing to the person they are trying to strike down. But if you really want to simplify it, it should be shown via feats.

Theres always going to be exceptions like Wonder Woman of course, but her exception I believe shouldn't apply to everyone.

Conclusion

THIS IS MY OPINION.

Well its not really a conclusion, but I have to point that out, its my opinion. So I am not expecting this to be the logical deduction for everyone. And if you looked at my past threads, I used to be on the piercing resistance thing. Those are my past threads anyways.

Well besides that, all I am saying is that we all have our own logic and debating style on fiction, which can be right or wrong to anyone cuz we are literally talking about a fictional medium. Maybe piercing resistance is more true to you than to me and I am in no position to disagree with you, cuz from your perspective, you've seen enough fiction and aspects in that to think that piercing resistance is a real thing.

For me this is my logic that I prefer to go with when it comes to debating with someone. I think if I ever CAV with someone I should talk to someone who agrees with this notion so at least we have common medium that we can both agree on to reach a conclusion. I think fictional debates can be fun and open minded, surprisingly productive too because it helps people have an open mind to those who are willing. Just try not to take fictional debates too seriously, cuz there is always a wrong.

Thank you guys for reading.