RainEffect

This user has not updated recently.

3376 1377 154 169
Forum Posts Wiki Points Following Followers

My issue with the Bat and the Kitty

It is pretty well know around these parts that I don’t like the pairing of Catwoman and Bruce, and I’ve never really taken the time to justify why that is. I’ve always been a supporter of Talia and Bruce, and many could speculate that as merely bias, but I wanted to take the time to actually get into detail behind my beliefs. You’ve probably seen me go at it with CitizenBane about the two couples, and it is hilarious when we do so, but for now, I wanted to turn a serious face and underline some important details.

I’ll do my best not to blatantly attack the character of Catwoman, as you might be surprised the find I actually like the character – more on that shortly.

First and foremost, the biggest issue I have with the Catwoman/Bruce relationship is that it breaks tradition. Catwoman, in my eyes, is a villain. Her entire schtick revolves around the idea of a cat-burglar. Catwoman is not an anti-hero, she is not a shade of grey – she is, at roots, a villain. The reason I say this is, my view of Catwoman ultimately boils down to the performance that Julie Newmar gave in the 1960s Batman television series. 

 Julie Newmar
 Julie Newmar

That was the true Catwoman. She wasn’t trying to earn the acceptance or trust of Batman, she was doing what she wanted, when she wanted and if Batman got in the way, well, the games would begin. I liked that. It brought the ideal of a Femme Fatale back to its glorious roots. What do we have now? Someone who is trying to earn, or at the very least, stay close to Bruce. I don’t like that, not a single bit. Catwoman is a thief, a villain and she should stay as one. I loved her ‘purple suit’ days. They were the glory days, stealing and flirting her way around Gotham City. What happened? Writers tried to pursue a romantic option with Batman, and that was where it all went downhill. To be fair, I haven’t read Brubaker’s Catwoman series (and it should be stated he is my favourite writer of all time), so I can’t comment on her change in those days. But, in my eyes and from what I’ve read, she’s gone down a path she should have never gone down.

Square one, a romantic relationship is built on the foundations of trust. Batman does not trust Catwoman. He will never forget that her past was a criminal and a thief, the two very things he hates. I understand the counter argument to that would be ‘well, Bruce revealed his identity to Selina during Hush’ – true, but don’t forget, throughout the entire story, he was second guessing his relationship with Selina. Constantly he was saying to himself ‘she is a distraction, does my enemy want this?’ Even at the end of the story, he tried to be a detective about their relationship and talked about Scarecrow’s gas and Ivy’s pheromones. He did not think that his relationship with Selina was genuine. Compare that to Talia al Ghul; he didn’t know she was the daughter of Ra’s, so he was able to fully trust her from square one. 

No Caption Provided

Therefore, he was able to expose himself and then learn about her connections – dangerous, yes, but look where it got him. He was fully prepared to settle down and have a happy family with Talia (see scan). He trusted Talia, because Talia consistently proved that she would put him and their child’s safety before anything. I can name you a number of instances where Talia chose Bruce over Ra’s – love over heritage. This brings me to my next point.

Square two, Catwoman doesn’t like being at the mercy of Bruce’s crusade. She hated being followed, she hated being rescued, she hates the idea of ending up like Huntress and becoming an accomplice, or an associate, to the crusade of the Dark Knight.  

No Caption Provided

Talia, on the other hand, is more than willing to play second fiddle to Bruce’s devotion. She understands why he does what he does, and it was her who convinced him to return to Gotham during No Man’s Land. In fact, their relationship broke apart because Bruce almost killed himself trying to save Talia’s life, and Talia did not want the Batman to die before his legacy had been fully realised. In short, she didn’t want him to die protecting her because the world needed Batman (this all occurred in Son of the Demon).

I could go on further, but I’ll save some in case some readers want to debate. In summary, I will forever support ‘Team Talia’ because Talia al Ghul is loyal to Bruce. Ignoring Grant Morrison’s retcon (which he personally corrected, see Talia’s page), Talia loves Bruce and loves Damian. Hush, The Lost Days, Gotham City Sirens, Resurrection of Ra’s al Ghul, Batman R.I.P, you name an arc with Talia appearing, and she has supported Batman or done whatever is necessary to protect him. That is why I love their relationship.

Catwoman should return to her rightful place; as a villain. Julie Newmar, please come back.
 
This has been a blog entry by Lucas aka RainEffect. Thank you for taking the time to read it, and I encourage any and all feedback, be it positive or negative.

58 Comments

58 Comments

Avatar image for saren
Saren

27947

Forum Posts

213824

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 14

User Lists: 12

Edited By Saren

In a place like Gotham, a thief is a welcome relief for law enforcement. Plus she robs crooks and people who are wealthy enough to tank the loss, so it's not like anyone's really being hurt. She was the East End's protector for a while too.

Hush was 9 years ago and written by an idiot, most recently in Batman Incorporated Bruce told Selina that she was one of the few people that he actually trusted. So there!

And Talia's a deranged lunatic, everybody knows that.

Avatar image for raineffect
RainEffect

3376

Forum Posts

1377

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 2

Edited By RainEffect
@CitizenBane said:

In a place like Gotham, a thief is a welcome relief for law enforcement. Plus she robs crooks and people who are wealthy enough to tank the loss, so it's not like anyone's really being hurt. She was the East End's protector for a while too.

Hush was 9 years ago and written by an idiot, most recently in Batman Incorporated Bruce told Selina that she was one of the few people that he actually trusted. So there!

And Talia's a deranged lunatic, everybody knows that.

What are your thoughts on Catwoman's allegiance? Do you believe she would be better off returning to her roots as a villain?
Avatar image for morpheus_
morpheus_

35671

Forum Posts

11892

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 5

Edited By morpheus_  Moderator
Hahaha, you guys are never going to let this go.
Avatar image for saren
Saren

27947

Forum Posts

213824

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 14

User Lists: 12

Edited By Saren

@RainEffect said:

@CitizenBane said:

In a place like Gotham, a thief is a welcome relief for law enforcement. Plus she robs crooks and people who are wealthy enough to tank the loss, so it's not like anyone's really being hurt. She was the East End's protector for a while too.

Hush was 9 years ago and written by an idiot, most recently in Batman Incorporated Bruce told Selina that she was one of the few people that he actually trusted. So there!

And Talia's a deranged lunatic, everybody knows that.

What are your thoughts on Catwoman's allegiance? Do you believe she would be better off returning to her roots as a villain?

She's never been a typical Gotham villain, and if you mean she should go back to doing what she was previously doing, that's what she's doing right now.

Avatar image for raineffect
RainEffect

3376

Forum Posts

1377

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 2

Edited By RainEffect
@Morpheus_ said:
Hahaha, you guys are never going to let this go.
COURSE NOT! 
 
@CitizenBane said:

@RainEffect said:

@CitizenBane said:

In a place like Gotham, a thief is a welcome relief for law enforcement. Plus she robs crooks and people who are wealthy enough to tank the loss, so it's not like anyone's really being hurt. She was the East End's protector for a while too.

Hush was 9 years ago and written by an idiot, most recently in Batman Incorporated Bruce told Selina that she was one of the few people that he actually trusted. So there!

And Talia's a deranged lunatic, everybody knows that.

What are your thoughts on Catwoman's allegiance? Do you believe she would be better off returning to her roots as a villain?

She's never been a typical Gotham villain, and if you mean she should go back to doing what she was previously doing, that's what she's doing right now.

Her purple suit days, she was, theoretically, a pretty frequent villain, yeah?
Avatar image for saren
Saren

27947

Forum Posts

213824

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 14

User Lists: 12

Edited By Saren

@RainEffect said:

@Morpheus_ said:
Hahaha, you guys are never going to let this go.
COURSE NOT!

@CitizenBane said:

@RainEffect said:

@CitizenBane said:

In a place like Gotham, a thief is a welcome relief for law enforcement. Plus she robs crooks and people who are wealthy enough to tank the loss, so it's not like anyone's really being hurt. She was the East End's protector for a while too.

Hush was 9 years ago and written by an idiot, most recently in Batman Incorporated Bruce told Selina that she was one of the few people that he actually trusted. So there!

And Talia's a deranged lunatic, everybody knows that.

What are your thoughts on Catwoman's allegiance? Do you believe she would be better off returning to her roots as a villain?

She's never been a typical Gotham villain, and if you mean she should go back to doing what she was previously doing, that's what she's doing right now.

Her purple suit days, she was, theoretically, a pretty frequent villain, yeah?

Even in her purple suit days she was hardly the malevolent type, and she occasionally ventured to the side of the angels as well.

Avatar image for raineffect
RainEffect

3376

Forum Posts

1377

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 2

Edited By RainEffect
@CitizenBane said:

@RainEffect said:

@Morpheus_ said:
Hahaha, you guys are never going to let this go.
COURSE NOT!

@CitizenBane said:

@RainEffect said:

@CitizenBane said:

In a place like Gotham, a thief is a welcome relief for law enforcement. Plus she robs crooks and people who are wealthy enough to tank the loss, so it's not like anyone's really being hurt. She was the East End's protector for a while too.

Hush was 9 years ago and written by an idiot, most recently in Batman Incorporated Bruce told Selina that she was one of the few people that he actually trusted. So there!

And Talia's a deranged lunatic, everybody knows that.

What are your thoughts on Catwoman's allegiance? Do you believe she would be better off returning to her roots as a villain?

She's never been a typical Gotham villain, and if you mean she should go back to doing what she was previously doing, that's what she's doing right now.

Her purple suit days, she was, theoretically, a pretty frequent villain, yeah?

Even in her purple suit days she was hardly the malevolent type, and she occasionally ventured to the side of the angels as well.

Agreed that she didn't exactly go out with the intention of murdering civilians or anything, I'm more referencing the fact that she often teamed up with other Gotham villains to further her own plans - which then resulted in direct confrontations with the Dark Knight.
Avatar image for aiden_cross
Aiden Cross

15726

Forum Posts

19758

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 5

Edited By Aiden Cross

Well, I have to agree with RainEffect. I've always liked Talia and Bruce together, Selina and Bruce just doesn't feel right for me.

Avatar image for entropy_aegis
entropy_aegis

21789

Forum Posts

420

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 7

Edited By entropy_aegis

@Morpheus_ said:

Hahaha, you guys are never going to let this go.

NEVAH

Avatar image for revamp
ReVamp

23014

Forum Posts

8330

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 13

Edited By ReVamp

@Morpheus_ said:

Hahaha, you guys are never going to let this go.

IKR? I swear I've seen this blog before. Like a dozen times. :P

Avatar image for hbktimhbk
HBKTimHBK

5731

Forum Posts

1056

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Edited By HBKTimHBK

You make good points, but a thief is nothing compared to what Talia and her father have planned to do before. I always feel like whatever Catwoman has done that is villainous, Talia has done worse.

Avatar image for raineffect
RainEffect

3376

Forum Posts

1377

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 2

Edited By RainEffect
@ReVamp said:

@Morpheus_ said:

Hahaha, you guys are never going to let this go.

IKR? I swear I've seen this blog before. Like a dozen times. :P

Shhhhh!
Avatar image for decoy_elite
Decoy Elite

30159

Forum Posts

1875

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 4

Edited By Decoy Elite

I'm sorry, but I prefer Punisher as a villain doesn't mean his character isn't completely past that at this point.  
 
Catwoman just isn't a villain anymore.  
 
That's the only real issue I had with this blog, besides that you made good points. (Although you ignored the massive pitfalls in the Bruce/Talia relationship )

Avatar image for innervenom123
InnerVenom123

29886

Forum Posts

1786

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 11

User Lists: 1

Edited By InnerVenom123

I like Batman/Catwoman for the exact reason you don't: it breaks the rules, and therefore, is more interesting to me.

(To be fair, I also love Black Cat/Spidey for literally the exact same reason).

But I haven't read enough comics to know more.

Avatar image for super_psycho
super_psycho

2843

Forum Posts

8160

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Edited By super_psycho

I hope catwoman dies horribly death :) ..

Avatar image for batteredarmor
BatteredArmor

6234

Forum Posts

44

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

Edited By BatteredArmor

I know its dumb to hate a fictional charecter butI'm at that point with Catwoman. I'm not as extreme as super_psycho on the matter but the less I see of the cat the better

Avatar image for raineffect
RainEffect

3376

Forum Posts

1377

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 2

Edited By RainEffect
@Decoy Elite said:
I'm sorry, but I prefer Punisher as a villain doesn't mean his character isn't completely past that at this point.   Catwoman just isn't a villain anymore.   That's the only real issue I had with this blog, besides that you made good points. (Although you ignored the massive pitfalls in the Bruce/Talia relationship )
Cheers. By pitfalls, are you talking about what happened at the end of Son of the Demon? Or are you talking about Batman & Son? I addressed both (admittedly, I just palmed off B&S and said that Morrison refuted that storyline, directing further interest to Talia's CV page [which I personally edited]).
Avatar image for honor_finesse
Honor_Finesse

274

Forum Posts

1

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Edited By Honor_Finesse

Bat + Cat FTW

Avatar image for raineffect
RainEffect

3376

Forum Posts

1377

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 2

Edited By RainEffect
@Honor_Finesse said:

Bat + Cat FTW

You're breaking my heart, DH <//////3.
Avatar image for honor_finesse
Honor_Finesse

274

Forum Posts

1

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Edited By Honor_Finesse

@RainEffect said:

@Honor_Finesse said:

Bat + Cat FTW

You're breaking my heart, DH <//////3.

tentatively tapes it back together

Avatar image for raineffect
RainEffect

3376

Forum Posts

1377

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 2

Edited By RainEffect
@Honor_Finesse said:

@RainEffect said:

@Honor_Finesse said:

Bat + Cat FTW

You're breaking my heart, DH <//////3.

tentatively tapes it back together

I feel somewhat like FrankenCastle now.
Avatar image for honor_finesse
Honor_Finesse

274

Forum Posts

1

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Edited By Honor_Finesse

@RainEffect said:

@Honor_Finesse said:

@RainEffect said:

@Honor_Finesse said:

Bat + Cat FTW

You're breaking my heart, DH <//////3.

tentatively tapes it back together

I feel somewhat like FrankenCastle now.

But so much more awesome. FrankenCastle was absolutely terrible.

Avatar image for raineffect
RainEffect

3376

Forum Posts

1377

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 2

Edited By RainEffect
@Honor_Finesse said:

@RainEffect said:

@Honor_Finesse said:

@RainEffect said:

@Honor_Finesse said:

Bat + Cat FTW

You're breaking my heart, DH <//////3.

tentatively tapes it back together

I feel somewhat like FrankenCastle now.

But so much more awesome. FrankenCastle was absolutely terrible.

I can live with that. xD
Avatar image for decoy_elite
Decoy Elite

30159

Forum Posts

1875

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 4

Edited By Decoy Elite
@RainEffect said:
@Decoy Elite said:
I'm sorry, but I prefer Punisher as a villain doesn't mean his character isn't completely past that at this point.   Catwoman just isn't a villain anymore.   That's the only real issue I had with this blog, besides that you made good points. (Although you ignored the massive pitfalls in the Bruce/Talia relationship )
Cheers. By pitfalls, are you talking about what happened at the end of Son of the Demon? Or are you talking about Batman & Son? I addressed both (admittedly, I just palmed off B&S and said that Morrison refuted that storyline, directing further interest to Talia's CV page [which I personally edited]).
I meant pitfalls in general. But yeah, her not telling Bruce about his son was one of them. 
Avatar image for raineffect
RainEffect

3376

Forum Posts

1377

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 2

Edited By RainEffect
@Decoy Elite said:
@RainEffect said:
@Decoy Elite said:
I'm sorry, but I prefer Punisher as a villain doesn't mean his character isn't completely past that at this point.   Catwoman just isn't a villain anymore.   That's the only real issue I had with this blog, besides that you made good points. (Although you ignored the massive pitfalls in the Bruce/Talia relationship )
Cheers. By pitfalls, are you talking about what happened at the end of Son of the Demon? Or are you talking about Batman & Son? I addressed both (admittedly, I just palmed off B&S and said that Morrison refuted that storyline, directing further interest to Talia's CV page [which I personally edited]).
I meant pitfalls in general. But yeah, her not telling Bruce about his son was one of them. 
I assumed you meant that. As I said, it was done out of love (albeit, a very strange love, but love is complex). She was sick of him almost killing himself for her and knew that, as long as they were together, the baby was in danger. Talia wanted Batman's legacy to continue, and she wanted their child to inherit it. She respects his crusade.
Avatar image for theblueangel93
TheBlueAngel93

21064

Forum Posts

16240

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: -1

Edited By TheBlueAngel93

I completely agree, no matter how fans may like their realtionship, Selina and Bruce will NEVER be together because she will never be able to dedicate her life to what Bruce has. It would be completely out of character for her to do so and in the end would never work out.

Avatar image for decoy_elite
Decoy Elite

30159

Forum Posts

1875

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 4

Edited By Decoy Elite
@RainEffect: Excuses are excuses.  
 
What if her love makes her kill someone? Bruce wouldn't want that.  
 What if her love makes her do bad things?  Bruce wouldn't want that. 
Avatar image for saren
Saren

27947

Forum Posts

213824

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 14

User Lists: 12

Edited By Saren

@RainEffect said:

@Decoy Elite said:
@RainEffect said:
@Decoy Elite said:
I'm sorry, but I prefer Punisher as a villain doesn't mean his character isn't completely past that at this point. Catwoman just isn't a villain anymore. That's the only real issue I had with this blog, besides that you made good points. (Although you ignored the massive pitfalls in the Bruce/Talia relationship )
Cheers. By pitfalls, are you talking about what happened at the end of Son of the Demon? Or are you talking about Batman & Son? I addressed both (admittedly, I just palmed off B&S and said that Morrison refuted that storyline, directing further interest to Talia's CV page [which I personally edited]).
I meant pitfalls in general. But yeah, her not telling Bruce about his son was one of them.
I assumed you meant that. As I said, it was done out of love (albeit, a very strange love, but love is complex). She was sick of him almost killing himself for her and knew that, as long as they were together, the baby was in danger. Talia wanted Batman's legacy to continue, and she wanted their child to inherit it. She respects his crusade.

......which is why she sent Deathstroke to try and end it?

Avatar image for raineffect
RainEffect

3376

Forum Posts

1377

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 2

Edited By RainEffect
@Decoy Elite said:
@RainEffect: Excuses are excuses.   What if her love makes her kill someone? Bruce wouldn't want that.   What if her love makes her do bad things?  Bruce wouldn't want that. 
I'm not trying to change your mind, I'm just explaining what I believe and why I believe it. I agree with your points, but Talia is a complex character enough to reach a compromise. Sure, she is loyal to her upbringing of purging the world of inequities, but she is more fiercely loyal to Bruce and one may wonder if indeed she would kill someone if Bruce asked her not to. A shame that writers never fleshed that out.
Avatar image for raineffect
RainEffect

3376

Forum Posts

1377

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 2

Edited By RainEffect
@CitizenBane said:

@RainEffect said:

I assumed you meant that. As I said, it was done out of love (albeit, a very strange love, but love is complex). She was sick of him almost killing himself for her and knew that, as long as they were together, the baby was in danger. Talia wanted Batman's legacy to continue, and she wanted their child to inherit it. She respects his crusade.

......which is why she sent Deathstroke to try and end it?

That was out of continuity, you big sack of boiled gamecube controllers!
Avatar image for saren
Saren

27947

Forum Posts

213824

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 14

User Lists: 12

Edited By Saren

@RainEffect said:

@CitizenBane said:

@RainEffect said:

I assumed you meant that. As I said, it was done out of love (albeit, a very strange love, but love is complex). She was sick of him almost killing himself for her and knew that, as long as they were together, the baby was in danger. Talia wanted Batman's legacy to continue, and she wanted their child to inherit it. She respects his crusade.

......which is why she sent Deathstroke to try and end it?

That was out of continuity, you big sack of boiled gamecube controllers!

How is it out of continuity?

Avatar image for raineffect
RainEffect

3376

Forum Posts

1377

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 2

Edited By RainEffect
@CitizenBane said:

@RainEffect said:

@CitizenBane said:

@RainEffect said:

I assumed you meant that. As I said, it was done out of love (albeit, a very strange love, but love is complex). She was sick of him almost killing himself for her and knew that, as long as they were together, the baby was in danger. Talia wanted Batman's legacy to continue, and she wanted their child to inherit it. She respects his crusade.

......which is why she sent Deathstroke to try and end it?

That was out of continuity, you big sack of boiled gamecube controllers!

How is it out of continuity?

Grant Morrison's Retcon

After the end of Son of the Demon, the fate of Talia and Bruce’s child was moved to the hands of Grant Morrison, who then wrote Batman & Son. However, Morrison retconned the romance and marriage of Talia and Bruce and instead attributed their ‘romance’ to a ploy ultimately masterminded by Ra’s al Ghul to create a genetically perfect heir and grandson. However, Morrison realized his mistake and addressed its continuity when the Pre-Flashpoint Superboy Prime universe-shaking punch broke the universe’s time.

This is what Morrison had to say:

"For a long time, [DC] said [Son of the Demon] was out of continuity. Now it's just kind of out of continuity. I didn't actually read it before I started writing this. I messed up a lot of details, like Batman wasn't drugged when he was having sex with Talia and it didn't take place in the desert. I was relying on shaky memories. But now we have this new "Superboy punch" continuity [after Superboy Prime attacked the fabric of the universe during Infinite Crisis]. People still don't realize how important that single punch was to cover everyone's ass." - Wizard #182 (p. 38)

Since the ‘punch’ DC has restored the continuity of Son of the Demon and of Talia and Bruce’s romance (as seen in Batman R.I.P and Gotham City Sirens).

Avatar image for saren
Saren

27947

Forum Posts

213824

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 14

User Lists: 12

Edited By Saren

@RainEffect said:

@CitizenBane said:

@RainEffect said:

@CitizenBane said:

@RainEffect said:

I assumed you meant that. As I said, it was done out of love (albeit, a very strange love, but love is complex). She was sick of him almost killing himself for her and knew that, as long as they were together, the baby was in danger. Talia wanted Batman's legacy to continue, and she wanted their child to inherit it. She respects his crusade.

......which is why she sent Deathstroke to try and end it?

That was out of continuity, you big sack of boiled gamecube controllers!

How is it out of continuity?

Grant Morrison's Retcon

After the end of Son of the Demon, the fate of Talia and Bruce’s child was moved to the hands of Grant Morrison, who then wrote Batman & Son. However, Morrison retconned the romance and marriage of Talia and Bruce and instead attributed their ‘romance’ to a ploy ultimately masterminded by Ra’s al Ghul to create a genetically perfect heir and grandson. However, Morrison realized his mistake and addressed its continuity when the Pre-Flashpoint Superboy Prime universe-shaking punch broke the universe’s time.

This is what Morrison had to say:

"For a long time, [DC] said [Son of the Demon] was out of continuity. Now it's just kind of out of continuity. I didn't actually read it before I started writing this. I messed up a lot of details, like Batman wasn't drugged when he was having sex with Talia and it didn't take place in the desert. I was relying on shaky memories. But now we have this new "Superboy punch" continuity [after Superboy Prime attacked the fabric of the universe during Infinite Crisis]. People still don't realize how important that single punch was to cover everyone's ass." - Wizard #182 (p. 38)

Since the ‘punch’ DC has restored the continuity of Son of the Demon and of Talia and Bruce’s romance (as seen in Batman R.I.P and Gotham City Sirens).

That was only for Batman & Son. It has absolutely nothing to do with Batman & Robin, which came years later. It's post-retcon, and Talia's still a lunatic.

Avatar image for raineffect
RainEffect

3376

Forum Posts

1377

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 2

Edited By RainEffect
@CitizenBane said:

@RainEffect said:

@CitizenBane said:

@RainEffect said:

@CitizenBane said:

@RainEffect said:

I assumed you meant that. As I said, it was done out of love (albeit, a very strange love, but love is complex). She was sick of him almost killing himself for her and knew that, as long as they were together, the baby was in danger. Talia wanted Batman's legacy to continue, and she wanted their child to inherit it. She respects his crusade.

......which is why she sent Deathstroke to try and end it?

That was out of continuity, you big sack of boiled gamecube controllers!

How is it out of continuity?

Grant Morrison's Retcon

After the end of Son of the Demon, the fate of Talia and Bruce’s child was moved to the hands of Grant Morrison, who then wrote Batman & Son. However, Morrison retconned the romance and marriage of Talia and Bruce and instead attributed their ‘romance’ to a ploy ultimately masterminded by Ra’s al Ghul to create a genetically perfect heir and grandson. However, Morrison realized his mistake and addressed its continuity when the Pre-Flashpoint Superboy Prime universe-shaking punch broke the universe’s time.

This is what Morrison had to say:

"For a long time, [DC] said [Son of the Demon] was out of continuity. Now it's just kind of out of continuity. I didn't actually read it before I started writing this. I messed up a lot of details, like Batman wasn't drugged when he was having sex with Talia and it didn't take place in the desert. I was relying on shaky memories. But now we have this new "Superboy punch" continuity [after Superboy Prime attacked the fabric of the universe during Infinite Crisis]. People still don't realize how important that single punch was to cover everyone's ass." - Wizard #182 (p. 38)

Since the ‘punch’ DC has restored the continuity of Son of the Demon and of Talia and Bruce’s romance (as seen in Batman R.I.P and Gotham City Sirens).

That was only for Batman & Son. It has absolutely nothing to do with Batman & Robin, which came years later. It's post-retcon, and Talia's still a lunatic.

If I recall correctly, that was Dick as Batman she wanted dead. Anyways, it is still a massive cock up on the part of Morrison (who you know I love), because he wrote B&S, addressed that he completely screwed up, but then went along with it anyway in B&R? Besides, if you've read Red Hood & the Outlaws #2, it has confirmed that The Lost Days is still in continuity, which then confirms the core mechanic of TLD which is Talia resurrecting Jason in order to win back Bruce.
Avatar image for decoy_elite
Decoy Elite

30159

Forum Posts

1875

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 4

Edited By Decoy Elite
@CitizenBane@RainEffect: As much as I enjoy your posts, stop using my post to start your quote pyramid fight. >.<
Avatar image for raineffect
RainEffect

3376

Forum Posts

1377

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 2

Edited By RainEffect
@Decoy Elite said:
@CitizenBane@RainEffect: As much as I enjoy your posts, stop using my post to start your quote pyramid fight. >.<
LOL. Sorry mate, I thought I did already. I'll remove it from the pyramid.
Avatar image for saren
Saren

27947

Forum Posts

213824

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 14

User Lists: 12

Edited By Saren

@RainEffect said:

Grant Morrison's Retcon

After the end of Son of the Demon, the fate of Talia and Bruce’s child was moved to the hands of Grant Morrison, who then wrote Batman & Son. However, Morrison retconned the romance and marriage of Talia and Bruce and instead attributed their ‘romance’ to a ploy ultimately masterminded by Ra’s al Ghul to create a genetically perfect heir and grandson. However, Morrison realized his mistake and addressed its continuity when the Pre-Flashpoint Superboy Prime universe-shaking punch broke the universe’s time.

This is what Morrison had to say:

"For a long time, [DC] said [Son of the Demon] was out of continuity. Now it's just kind of out of continuity. I didn't actually read it before I started writing this. I messed up a lot of details, like Batman wasn't drugged when he was having sex with Talia and it didn't take place in the desert. I was relying on shaky memories. But now we have this new "Superboy punch" continuity [after Superboy Prime attacked the fabric of the universe during Infinite Crisis]. People still don't realize how important that single punch was to cover everyone's ass." - Wizard #182 (p. 38)

Since the ‘punch’ DC has restored the continuity of Son of the Demon and of Talia and Bruce’s romance (as seen in Batman R.I.P and Gotham City Sirens).

That was only for Batman & Son. It has absolutely nothing to do with Batman & Robin, which came years later. It's post-retcon, and Talia's still a lunatic.

If I recall correctly, that was Dick as Batman she wanted dead. Anyways, it is still a massive cock up on the part of Morrison (who you know I love), because he wrote B&S, addressed that he completely screwed up, but then went along with it anyway in B&R? Besides, if you've read Red Hood & the Outlaws #2, it has confirmed that The Lost Days is still in continuity, which then confirms the core mechanic of TLD which is Talia resurrecting Jason in order to win back Bruce.

And she was still willing to use her son as a tool for a dangerous killer. She wanted Batman dead and Robin to quit, which doesn't do much for the Wayne legacy. Morrison's only retcon was in relation to the rape, the relationship itself remained unchanged. The only thing Red Hood #2 confirms is that Talia resurrected Jason, it doesn't say anything about her motives or whether the entirety of TLD is still canon.

Avatar image for raineffect
RainEffect

3376

Forum Posts

1377

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 2

Edited By RainEffect
@CitizenBane said:

@RainEffect said:

Grant Morrison's Retcon

After the end of Son of the Demon, the fate of Talia and Bruce’s child was moved to the hands of Grant Morrison, who then wrote Batman & Son. However, Morrison retconned the romance and marriage of Talia and Bruce and instead attributed their ‘romance’ to a ploy ultimately masterminded by Ra’s al Ghul to create a genetically perfect heir and grandson. However, Morrison realized his mistake and addressed its continuity when the Pre-Flashpoint Superboy Prime universe-shaking punch broke the universe’s time.

This is what Morrison had to say:

"For a long time, [DC] said [Son of the Demon] was out of continuity. Now it's just kind of out of continuity. I didn't actually read it before I started writing this. I messed up a lot of details, like Batman wasn't drugged when he was having sex with Talia and it didn't take place in the desert. I was relying on shaky memories. But now we have this new "Superboy punch" continuity [after Superboy Prime attacked the fabric of the universe during Infinite Crisis]. People still don't realize how important that single punch was to cover everyone's ass." - Wizard #182 (p. 38)

Since the ‘punch’ DC has restored the continuity of Son of the Demon and of Talia and Bruce’s romance (as seen in Batman R.I.P and Gotham City Sirens).

That was only for Batman & Son. It has absolutely nothing to do with Batman & Robin, which came years later. It's post-retcon, and Talia's still a lunatic.

If I recall correctly, that was Dick as Batman she wanted dead. Anyways, it is still a massive cock up on the part of Morrison (who you know I love), because he wrote B&S, addressed that he completely screwed up, but then went along with it anyway in B&R? Besides, if you've read Red Hood & the Outlaws #2, it has confirmed that The Lost Days is still in continuity, which then confirms the core mechanic of TLD which is Talia resurrecting Jason in order to win back Bruce.

And she was still willing to use her son as a tool for a dangerous killer. She wanted Batman dead and Robin to quit, which doesn't do much for the Wayne legacy. Morrison's only retcon was in relation to the rape, the relationship itself remained unchanged. The only thing Red Hood #2 confirms is that Talia resurrected Jason, it doesn't say anything about her motives or whether the entirety of TLD is still canon.

So let me get this straight (because, in honesty, I haven't read the Deathstroke incident and I'm only going off from what you've told me):
 
  • She wanted Dick dead and Damian brought back to his roots. 
  • TLD isn't entirely proven as canon, only that Jason was resurrected and then funded by Talia.
  • However, in the later issues of Gotham City Sirens, she was fiercely defending the identity of Bruce by masterminding a wipe of Selina's memories.
  • I am not certain of when the incident with her sabotaging Luthor's company to support the Wayne Foundation occurred. Was that when Bruce was still alive? 
 
This just makes it all a big game of assumptions. In RHatO#2, she wasn't very menacing in comparison to Morrison's recent Talia, thereby making the assumption that she wanted to protect Jason in order to win back Bruce's heart. One could also make the assumption that she never wanted Damian to be a Robin (as that scan I originally provided can slightly confirm) and so taking him back was a means of protecting him. Perhaps she didn't trust Dick with the Batman mantle and protecting Damian? 
 
I've obviously got no concrete proof, other than what I've previously stated, I can admit that. That is why it boils down to assumptions.
Avatar image for cervantes
Cervantes

655

Forum Posts

4381

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 6

User Lists: 3

Edited By Cervantes

I agree. Catwoman is much more useful as an enticement to be a criminal by harboring a known felon, or even assisting her in her crimes. The Batman Animated Series did a great job with this element. There really is no other lure toward criminality for Batman, so she is useful that way, and gets to be an interesting villain - they don't all have to be murderous mobsters. But if Batman seduces her into being a good girl sidekick, as dope as that is for Batman, it could only really work if she becomes a Batgirl - which I predict will happen in the future; she can't fight at his side in the same uni she used to steal all those years, or it tarnishes Batman. Making these two cloak their relationship together is much more interesting...

Avatar image for entropy_aegis
entropy_aegis

21789

Forum Posts

420

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 7

Edited By entropy_aegis

@RainEffect said:

@CitizenBane said:

@RainEffect said:

@CitizenBane said:

@RainEffect said:

I assumed you meant that. As I said, it was done out of love (albeit, a very strange love, but love is complex). She was sick of him almost killing himself for her and knew that, as long as they were together, the baby was in danger. Talia wanted Batman's legacy to continue, and she wanted their child to inherit it. She respects his crusade.

......which is why she sent Deathstroke to try and end it?

That was out of continuity, you big sack of boiled gamecube controllers!

How is it out of continuity?

Grant Morrison's Retcon

After the end of Son of the Demon, the fate of Talia and Bruce’s child was moved to the hands of Grant Morrison, who then wrote Batman & Son. However, Morrison retconned the romance and marriage of Talia and Bruce and instead attributed their ‘romance’ to a ploy ultimately masterminded by Ra’s al Ghul to create a genetically perfect heir and grandson. However, Morrison realized his mistake and addressed its continuity when the Pre-Flashpoint Superboy Prime universe-shaking punch broke the universe’s time.

This is what Morrison had to say:

"For a long time, [DC] said [Son of the Demon] was out of continuity. Now it's just kind of out of continuity. I didn't actually read it before I started writing this. I messed up a lot of details, like Batman wasn't drugged when he was having sex with Talia and it didn't take place in the desert. I was relying on shaky memories. But now we have this new "Superboy punch" continuity [after Superboy Prime attacked the fabric of the universe during Infinite Crisis]. People still don't realize how important that single punch was to cover everyone's ass." - Wizard #182 (p. 38)

Since the ‘punch’ DC has restored the continuity of Son of the Demon and of Talia and Bruce’s romance (as seen in Batman R.I.P and Gotham City Sirens).

This does'nt change the Deathstroke incident.

Avatar image for aeka
aeka

47

Forum Posts

19

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Edited By aeka

First and foremost, you lost me at "The reason I say this is, my view of Catwoman ultimately boils down to the performance that Julie Newmar gave in the 1960s Batman television series."

If you're seriously basing your opinion on Selina from her depiction on a TV show from the 1960s, and opine that this is the "true" Catwoman, you really don't know Catwoman at all, mate. On top of that, if you're using that as the basis for your argument on why Bruce and Talia are better, already your argument is skewed because you're not comparing the two characters as they've been depicted in the comics. Since you already admitted to Ed Brubaker being one of your favourite writers, I wholeheartedly recommend reading Brubaker's Catwoman, because your knowledge of the character (and her relationship with Bruce for that matter) is clearly lacking. Since you also cite an originally out-of-continuity story like Son of the Demon as part of the basis for your opinion on Bruce and Talia, perhaps I should inform you that prior to Crisis on Infinite Earths, the original Golden Age versions of Bruce and Selina did marry and raise a daughter--Helena Wayne--together until their respective deaths. As explained in the Autobiography fo Bruce Wayne story, Selina voluntarily gave up being Catwoman and turned herself in to the police in an effort to start her life over. It should also be noted that she didn't just do this out of her unwavering love for Batman, but because she realised she was getting older and didn't want to spend the rest of her life without love and a family of her own. As a result, Selina became one of the few people outside of the superhero community Bruce entrusted his secret to, and spent the rest of his life alongside her.

Second, the fact that you've demonstrate being selective of what aspects of each character you're willing to accept as 'fact' to fit the mould of your head-canon further invalidates your points. I don't disagree that Talia is one of Bruce's most profound love interests to the point of rivalling Selina, has a special history with him, and have great chemistry together, but Talia is hardly the saint you paint her to be. She isn't by all means 'evil' or 'villainous' in the traditional sense since a lot of her criminal activity is out of her loyalty to her father, but she isn't beyond 'bending' her position either if it suits her interests, and can be pretty unpredictable as a result. It's enough to say that despite her unwavering loyalty to Bruce, neither Bruce or the rest of the Bat-Family fully trust her because of the unpredictable factor. If anything both Talia and Selina are each other's equals, not just when it comes to Bruce's affections, but also in the fact that they're both genuinely good women deep down who operate on both sides of the law, and will only do what they personally feel is right.

Avatar image for saren
Saren

27947

Forum Posts

213824

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 14

User Lists: 12

Edited By Saren

@aeka said:

First and foremost, you lost me at "The reason I say this is, my view of Catwoman ultimately boils down to the performance that Julie Newmar gave in the 1960s Batman television series."

If you're seriously basing your opinion on Selina from her depiction on a TV show from the 1960s, and opine that this is the "true" Catwoman, you really don't know Catwoman at all, mate. On top of that, if you're using that as the basis for your argument on why Bruce and Talia are better, already your argument is skewed because you're not comparing the two characters as they've been depicted in the comics. Since you already admitted to Ed Brubaker being one of your favourite writers, I wholeheartedly recommend reading Brubaker's Catwoman, because your knowledge of the character (and her relationship with Bruce for that matter) is clearly lacking. Since you also cite an originally out-of-continuity story like Son of the Demon as part of the basis for your opinion on Bruce and Talia, perhaps I should inform you that prior to Crisis on Infinite Earths, the original Golden Age versions of Bruce and Selina did marry and raise a daughter--Helena Wayne--together until their respective deaths. As explained in the Autobiography fo Bruce Wayne story, Selina voluntarily gave up being Catwoman and turned herself in to the police in an effort to start her life over. It should also be noted that she didn't just do this out of her unwavering love for Batman, but because she realised she was getting older and didn't want to spend the rest of her life without love and a family of her own. As a result, Selina became one of the few people outside of the superhero community Bruce entrusted his secret to, and spent the rest of his life alongside her.

Second, the fact that you've demonstrate being selective of what aspects of each character you're willing to accept as 'fact' to fit the mould of your head-canon further invalidates your points. I don't disagree that Talia is one of Bruce's most profound love interests to the point of rivalling Selina, has a special history with him, and have great chemistry together, but Talia is hardly the saint you paint her to be. She isn't by all means 'evil' or 'villainous' in the traditional sense since a lot of her criminal activity is out of her loyalty to her father, but she isn't beyond 'bending' her position either if it suits her interests, and can be pretty unpredictable as a result. It's enough to say that despite her unwavering loyalty to Bruce, neither Bruce or the rest of the Bat-Family fully trust her because of the unpredictable factor. If anything both Talia and Selina are each other's equals, not just when it comes to Bruce's affections, but also in the fact that they're both genuinely good women deep down who operate on both sides of the law, and will only do what they personally feel is right.

I like all of this except the part about Talia and Selina being equal in any way, but that's mainly because I hate Talia. Nice write-up, aeka.

Avatar image for aeka
aeka

47

Forum Posts

19

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Edited By aeka

@CitizenBane: Well I will admit that anything Selina has done that constitutes as 'evil' hardly compares to anything Talia has done. Selina is a jewel thief and aside from stealing from the wealthy, isn't actually hurting anyone. She never steals from people in need, and the one time that she did kill someone (Black Mask), it was only as a last ditch resort after he repeatedly attacked and tortured her friends and family. Talia by contrast is a skilled assassin who is willing to kill anyone who tries to harm Bruce or Damian, she is calculating, and is even exploitive of others--including her own son whom she used as a tool to distract Batman while she carried on with other plans. Selina never exploited her own daughter in either incarnation, and Helena Wayne's decision to lead a dangerous lifestyle as an adult was a decision she made on her own. Not because Selina trained her from day one to 'fight evil' (though both she and Bruce felt she could benefit from it in terms of self-defence in a dangerous place like Gotham), but because she felt it was both her birthright to continue what her father started, and did so in response to anger of losing her family at the hands of criminals.

Nevertheless, Talia is not entirely a bad person despite her flaws. Almost everything she does is both due to her loyalty to her father, and in other cases to protect the people she loves and cares for the most, even if it means fighting against her own father. She also worked for LexCorp with the intentions of exposing Lex Luthor's crimes and selling all of his assets to the Wayne foundation and leave him without a penny to his name. Although both Talia and Selina operate on the opposite side of the law for entirely different reasons, they're both strong and independent women who are genuinely good at heart, and both fight to protect what's most important to them. The fact that they both blur the line between bad and good and are two of Bruce's most enduring love interests despite their flaws is what I feel makes them stand on equal ground. They have their differences, but they have similarities as well.

Avatar image for entropy_aegis
entropy_aegis

21789

Forum Posts

420

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 7

Edited By entropy_aegis

@aeka: Modern Talia is worse than even Ra's himself,i find it ironic ya know.Talia was always a character who was always put in nasty situations and forced to decide her loyalties.Bane of the Demon and Tower of Babel are perfect examples of such situations.And yet currently she's doing stuff that make Ra's and Bane look tame in comparision.

But i prefer her this way,it's badass

Avatar image for deactivated-5a4e0e8ea3dfb
deactivated-5a4e0e8ea3dfb

796

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@RainEffect: I think you have a very one-sided view of Selina Kyle and are in many ways are neglecting the full range of her character, including the portrayal done by Julie Newmar, but the character has never been portrayed as a traditional villain but rather a women simply living by her own code and most importantly not bound by traditional ideas. In many ways she is just as much of an obsessive character as Bruce and is the arch-type for the myraid of female characters that follow a thief or spy type career. Even the 60's television series hinted at a relationship not only between Batman and Catwoman but Bruce and Selina as well.

You're also basing a lot of your arguments for Talia on a story that is not in continuity anymore, with the Morrison version of the events being the one that is. No matter the fact that Morrison didn't read Son of the Demon beforehand (which at the time was not considered canon anyways but something more akin to an Elseworlds tale by Dennis O'Neal) the fact is when Morrison created Damian and the backstory he made those events canon and the only ones that matter. His comments about Infinite Crisis and Superboy's punches were about the fact that those punches justified his version of events rather than saying he messed up continuity. By that logic the aspect of Talia that you like so much don't even exist.

As to your other point about Talia being completely supportive of Bruce's mission.......that is about as unhealthy and a little backwards thinking as you can get. Do you really think a good relationship is one where Talia says "Your mission as Batman is more important than me or any kind of happiness we could have together"? Wouldn't Selina's insistence that Bruce give up his identity of Batman so they could be together and be happy be a more appropriate relationship model? I mean, its not like Bruce can't do any good in the world if he's not Batman. He's got Wayne Enterprises and charities, he could run for Mayor, in Earth-Two continuity he became the Police Commissioner, he could be a tech and strategy adviser to the superhero community, he can keep pushing his Batman Inc idea, etc......There are a ton of things Bruce could do and still make a difference while being with Selina. His obsession with being Batman is something that keeps Bruce from being in a relationship but Selina's insistence on him giving up the identity is not a bad thing if he would finally find happiness. On the flip side Talia either encourages him to keep up his role as Batman or finally except her offer of taking over the League of Assassins from her father and becoming the next Head of the Demon....which is completely against everything Bruce stands for. Does Talia have feelings for Bruce that contradict her father's desires? Yes. But even in the animated series she was still not above doing her father's work or doing what she believed had to be done even if it contradicts everything Bruce stands for.

Case in point is the erasing of Selina's memories. Bruce would never agree to that and even told Talia to not carry though with her plans, but she did anyways. Not exactly a relationship booster. Hiding Damian for most of his childhood and raising him to be a cold-blooded killer is also a complete contradiction to Bruce's way of thinking. Then she purposely took control of her son's body to try and kill Dick Grayson, Batman's adopted son and (at the time) successor. Then when Damian confronted her about it she revealed that she had his "brother" growing in a test tube and that if Damian would not follow her examples she would cast him off as a failure. Again not exactly the best person for Bruce to be in a relationship with.

Overall my argument for Selina over Talia is on the simple basis that a relationship with Selina is far more plausible than one with Talia given the totality of their continuity vice individual stories or depictions. This is why I think writers gravitate to a relationship between Bruce and Selina because at her core Selina is a good person that breaks the law simply because it amuses her and fuels the lifestyle she wants, whereas Talia is every bit as manipulative, crazy and dangerous as her father but just happens to love Bruce as well.

Avatar image for daredevil21134
daredevil21134

15945

Forum Posts

22

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 15

Edited By daredevil21134

@RainEffect: Jason Todd would take her off Bruce's hands lol

Avatar image for trinity_stormbreaker
trinity_stormbreaker

31

Forum Posts

20

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

My two cents, being a major Catwoman fan probably makes me really bias on the subject, but I understand completely that Batman and Catwoman can never truly have a future. Seline Kyle is mostly portrayed as an extremely confident, sexually self-assured woman who knows what she wants and takes it, charged by the thrill that comes with the motion of stealing. She will never stop so long as she stays the person so many fans love her to be, and not even her love for Bruce will stop her.

Bruce Wayne is charged by his obsession to eliminate all crime. Even portion of his life is focused on his mission; love, companionship, sex, everything is sacrificed to the Almighty Will. Every second he is awake, his mind is on his mission, creating contingency plans, researching information on everyone, his enemies and allies.

It is quite impossible for either of them to find anyone to love completely and truly give themselves to. But, the main reason I love this relationship more than Bruce and Talia’s, is because that despite everything that threatens to rip them apart from one another, despite the voice in their heads that scream that there’s no point, nothing will ever come of this: Bruce and Selina (Batman and Catwoman) are still bound together by their feelings for one another.

Trust, differing opinions, even the fact that they’re on opposite sides of the coin of Hero/Villain, Batman and Catwoman will always love one another in a way that can never be explained. It’s too complex to have a label, and I doubt even the characters themselves will ever understand it.

Avatar image for battyfan1
battyfan1

203

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Edited By battyfan1

Raineffect.......

dude or dudette, you do not mess with the Bat and the Cat......they have a huge following....and rightfully so...

talia is NOT equal to Selina......i don't know where people get that idea....i have read every possible comic out there and there is nothing that makes me believe that Talia is as great as Selina....

and i actually believe that Bruce and Selina can be together and the Universe won't implode at the idea.....thats just my view... :)

Avatar image for glaucus
Glaucus

606

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Edited By Glaucus

I want to my 2 cents in. I am definitely both a fan of Bruce Wayne/Batman and Selina Kyle/Catwoman and their relationship.

First off, Selina Kyle/Catwoman hasn't always been a villain. She's been an anti-hero for decades. She's even reformed and fought crime. She was a Guardian of the East End.

Selina Kyle/Catwoman wasn't purely bad.

Throughout comic history since her creation in 1940, she didn't kill and was attracted to Bruce Wayne/Batman. Batman #2, Catwoman gave up jewels to Joker keep him from killing Robin with a poisoned needle.

Bob Kane actually created her to be a friendly foe and love interest to Batman. She was also created for sex appeal and to bring in female readers. He intended her to be an antagonist to Batman and to play off the attraction between opposites.

She's been an anti-heroine since the Balent Catwoman series in the 1990's, and/or the late 1980's.

She leaned more towards being hero in the Brubaker Catwoman series in the 2000's.

In the early 1980's, she reformed. She even took up crime-fighting and partnered up with both Batman and Robin. It ended up with Joker converting her being back to bad though a mind machine, cat-scan, and that was right before the Batman: Year 1 which was a big retcon and changed both Batman and Catwoman's origins.

The Golden Age/Earth 2 Catwoman reformed and married Batman for 20 years until her death. She was blackmailed into becoming Catwoman, and she was accidentally killed which led to their daughter, Helena to become the Huntress. Selina was absolved of the murder that she was blackmailed into becoming Catwoman.

The way I see it, Catwoman always had a moral center, and she slowly (not rapidly) evolved in the comics.

Now Catwoman is back to being a bit of the anti-heroine again compared when she was more of a heroine in the later 2000's. The new Catwoman series is based on a younger Selina Kyle and Catwoman in her unrepentant thief/criminal stage and she is still depicted as being attracted to both Batman and Bruce Wayne.

I just believe that Selina is a person who sees shades of gray and is ambiguous. This is what makes her highly complex which can lead to her easily being misunderstood. Deep down, she's a good person but makes mistakes. She definitely has her flaws just like everybody else does. Definitely Batman saw that she was a good person. He even found her confusing. He even asked her how she can disregard societal laws but yet casually risk her life to save others. This was in the issue where Joker revealed why he made Catwoman a killing magnet which including him saying that Batman and Catwoman are made for each other and that there is true love between them. Catwoman's gray approach to life challenged Batman's black and white perception of the world. She wasn't evil nor was she insane. This led to him not even really attempting hard to arrest her and turn her over to the police. He even helped Selina stay hidden after she was believed to be dead. He didn't want her to be killed nor arrested. Selina even asked him why did he help her, and he responded that she is a good person deep down inside and wanted her to see that. Of course, there was a strong connection between them. There was a strong mutual attraction between them that they tried to fight. Catwoman covered it up through her flirting and teasing. Batman covered it up through his discipline and reserve and his sense of duty. It was only until Catwoman reformed that Batman allowed himself to get close to Catwoman.

Selina is a very strong,independent woman, and she doesn't want to be dependent on anybody. She's been dependent on people before, and it led to some bad things. She definitely doesn't want to be controlled by others in any way. She definitely doesn't want to answer to any man. I actually see her as feminist type that has a disregard for the patriarchy because she doesn't trust it. There is corruption among the police and the wealthy.

The period of Selina Kyle/Catwoman reformed and not a villain

Detective Comics #479 (September-October 1978): "If a Man Be Made of Clay...!"

Batman #308 (February 1979): "There'll be a Cold Time in the Old Town Tonight"

Batman #310 (April 1979): "The Ghost Who Haunted Batman"

Batman #313 (July 1979): "Two for the Money!"

Batman #314 (August 1979): "Once Beaten, Twice Sly!"

Batman #315 (September 1979): "Danger on the Wing"

Batman #317 (November 1979): "The 1,001 Clue Caper" or, "Why Did the Riddler Cross the Road?"

Batman #318 (December 1979): "My City Burns at Both Ends--It Will Not Last the Night"

Batman #319 (January 1980): "Never Give Up the Ghost"

Detective Comics #488 (February-March 1980): "The Spook's Death Sentence for Batman"

Batman #321 (March 1980): "Dreadful Birthday, Dear Joker"

Batman #322 (April 1980): "Chaos--Coming and Going!"

Batman #323 (May 1980): "Shadow of the Cat"

Batman #324 (June 1980): "The Cat Who Would Be King"

Batman #326 (August 1980): "This Way Lies Madness"

Batman #332 (February 1981): "Fallout!"

Batman #332/2 (February 1981): "Cat's Paw"

Batman #333/2 (March 1981): "Shanghaied!"

Batman #334 (April 1981): "Infinity Island!"

Batman #335 (May 1981): "Ashes to Ashes"

Brave and the Bold #176 (July 1981): "The Delta Connection"

Detective Comics #506 (September 1981): "Who Dies for the Manikin?"

Detective Comics #508 (November 1981): "Secret of the Sphinx Sinister"

Detective Comics #509 (December 1981): "Nine Lives Has the Cat"

Batman #345/2 (March 1982): "Terror Train"

Batman #346/2 (April 1982): "In the Land of the Dead"

Batman #348/2 (June 1982): "The Man, the Bullet, the Cat, Part 1"

Batman #349/2 (July 1982): "The Man, the Bullet, the Cat, Part 2"

Batman #350/2 (August 1982): "Those Lips, Those Eyes"

Batman #351/2 (September 1982): "Gentlemen Defer Blondes"

Detective Comics #520/2 (November 1982): "The Cat and the Conover Caper"

Batman #354 (December 1982): "Showdown"

Detective Comics #521 (December 1982): "Cat Tale"

Batman #355 (January 1983): "Never Scratch A Cat"

Detective Comics #526 (May 1983): "All My Enemies Against Me"

Detective Comics #548 (March 1985): "Beasts A-Prowl"

Batman #382 (April 1985): "The Vengeance Spiral"

Batman #389 (November 1985): "Red Skies"

Detective Comics #556 (November 1985): "The Bleeding Night"

Batman #390 (December 1985): "Women Dark and Dangerous"

Detective Comics #557 (December 1985): "Still Beating"

Batman #391 (January 1986): "Death Comes As the End"

Detective Comics #558 (January 1986): "Strange Loves"

Crisis on Infinite Earths #5 (August 1985): "Worlds in Limbo"

Batman #392 (February 1986): "A Town on the Night"

Detective Comics #559 (February 1986): "It Takes Two Wings to Fly"

Detective Comics #560 (March 1986): "The Batman Nobody Knows"

Batman #395 (May 1986): "Fury of the Film Freak"

Detective Comics #562 (May 1986): "Reeling"

Batman #396 (June 1986): "Box-Office Smash"

Detective Comics #563 (June 1986): "Free Faces"

Batman #397 (July 1986): "Binary Brains"

Detective Comics #564 (July 1986): "Double Crosses"

Batman #398 (August 1986): "About Faces"

Detective Comics #565 (August 1986): "The Love Killing"

Batman #399 (September 1986): "Strike Two"

Batman #400 (October 1986): "Resurrection Night!"

Detective Comics #569 (December 1986): "Catch As Catscan"

Detective Comics #570 (January 1987): "The Last Laugh"

From February 1979 through January 1987, Catwoman was in a reformed stage.

By the end of Detective Comics #570, Catwoman was converted back to being a villian with a mind machine by the Joker.

It was just month after that, there was the big retcon with new origins of Batman and Catwoman with the Batman: Year 1 series

Batman #404 (February 1987): "Batman: Year One, Ch. 1: Who Am I, How I Come To Be"

Batman #332/2 (February 1981): "Cat's Paw"

Batman #333/2 (March 1981): "Shanghaied!"

Batman #345/2 (March 1982): "Terror Train"

Batman #346/2 (April 1982): "In the Land of the Dead"

Batman #348/2 (June 1982): "The Man, the Bullet, the Cat, Part 1"

Batman #349/2 (July 1982): "The Man, the Bullet, the Cat, Part 2"

Batman #350/2 (August 1982): "Those Lips, Those Eyes"

Batman #351/2 (September 1982): "Gentlemen Defer Blondes"

Detective Comics #520/2 (November 1982): "The Cat and the Conover Caper"

There were separate stories of Catwoman after Batman's regular stories. They focused on the heroic aspect of her.

Batman #332 (February 1981): "Fallout!"

Batman #332/2 (February 1981): "Cat's Paw"

Batman #333/2 (March 1981): "Shanghaied!"

Catwoman and Robin teamed up

Robin says: "Frankly, I didn't know who else I could turn to who could help me the same way you can. You know the Batman. You understand him. And maybe I don't. It's just...Well, I think Talia is playing him for a fool. Why can't he see through her? You know, I tried warning him, but he wouldn't listen to me. He still thinks of me as a kid. You know, the boy wonder, his teenage sidekick. nothing more. Maybe I'm not as good as he is. But I'm not half as bad as he thinks I am. I need your help."

Then it shows that he was talking to Selina.

Dick Grayson/Robin actually trusted Selina Kyle/Catwoman and not Talia.

They teamed up.

The Batman Issue part of #332 ended with Catwoman and Robin seeing Batman and Talia kissing. Catwoman sadly walked away which led to Robin scatching his head out of confusion.

The Catwoman part of Batman issue #332 ends with the following

Catwoman says: "Everything went up in flames! Kruggerand couldn't control the energy output! First Falstaff dead, now him...And I still don't understand why either of them was trying to create monsters! just as I'm not certain who they were actually working for. I was so certain it was Talia. so certain she was playing with the Batman...leading him into some dangerous trap..but now, I just don't know. I'm wondering if seeing Batman with Talia made me jealous in some stupid manner. Blast! Am I really that petty? I wish I knew...I just wish I knew."

Then it shows Talia watching Catwoman walking away.

It wasn't just Catwoman that thought Talia was playing with Batman. Robin thought so too. Therefore, she really wasn't being petty. I like how the comic showed Catwoman doubting herself because it showed her that she was very human. She wasn't so cocky that she felt like she knew everything. She understood that she had flaws that might interfere with her judgment.

Batman #333/2 (March 1981): "Shanghaied!"

Robin and Catwoman talking while flying in the Batplane.

Robin says: "Selina, I didn't ask you before...but you walked out when you saw Talia with Batman."

Catwoman looking away from Robin

Catwoman says: "And you want to know why. Perhaps I felt...hurt. Jealous...? I don't know. Sometimes I think I'm better off not knowing." It gives the impression that Catwoman is jealous of seeing Talia with Batman because she knows that Talia is with Bruce. It's like she knows that Batman and Bruce are one and the same.

I really liked Catwoman and Robin working together. They seemed to like and respect each other.

Detective Comics #521 (December 1982): "Cat Tale"

Batman #355 (January 1983): "Never Scratch A Cat"

After Selina left Bruce and Gotham, she came back. She realized that she needed him and wanted to be with him. She had major jealousy issues with Vicki Vale. She was so eaten up inside that she had nightmares of being like a monster. She told Vicki to stay away from Bruce. She ran Bruce and Vicki off the road. Catwoman and Batman had a fight, and Catwoman wanted to kill him. She had the upper hand, but she couldn't allow herself to kill him. For the first time, she called Batman "Bruce."

Bruce finally understood how they hurt each other (She hurt him by leaving Gotham, and he hurt her by taking up with Vicki Vale). It ended with them hugging each other.

Detective Comics #521 (December 1982): "Cat Tale"

Selina has a nightmare of being a monstrous Catwoman that attacks Vicki Vale

Selina says: "Every night...the same dream...horrible dream...! And each night, it's worse than the night before! Stalking that woman --- attacking her. ---smelling her blood on my hands. God...God...I'm going mad. I know I'm going mad. I should never have come back to Gotham. Then I wouldn't have known that Bruce had found someone else...Vicki Vale..someone else to love. But I have come back And when I see her with him, holding him --- ---It sets a fury raging within me, a fury I don't think I can control! I gave up a life of crime as the Catwoman out of love for Bruce......but what life do I have without him? These past few months apart, I've learned how much I need him.....and I won't give up without a fight."

I don't know why the writers made Selina to be a crazy jealous woman in those 2 issues. I guess that they wanted to play off her jealous nature like they showed her being jealous of Talia. I guess the writers wanted to show that Selina still had dark side that needed to be kept in check. At least in the end, Selina showed that she was better than that.

Later after some comic book issues, the writers had Bruce Wayne/Batman realizing that he never stopped loving Selina Kyle/Catwoman.

It really isn't out of character for Selina Kyle/Catwoman to reform and become good. She's done it in multiple age periods. Seeing that she wasn't the type to kill and was attracted to Batman hinted at the possiblity that she would fall in love with Bruce Wayne/Batman, reform and become a crime fighter.

In regards to comic book history, I believe that Selina Kyle/Catwoman hasn't been an actual villain since October 1978 if don't count the Joker converting her back to having a villain mindset with the mind machine. That was just a little bit of Detective Comics #570 (January 1987): "The Last Laugh"

Avatar image for illituracy
iLLituracy

13600

Forum Posts

1161

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Edited By iLLituracy

Serious. Business.

  • 58 results
  • 1
  • 2