Ozzy_ManuelDiaz

My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings, Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!

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Countering the Counters

Your mention of Captain America's shield is giving me a pass to talk about how Natasha will react to an opponent with an admittedly unorthodox gimmick of a fighting style, because I do agree that it's a factor to consider when Boomerang is up against most opponents. Natasha, however, is an Avenger, who's faught closely with and against characters like Steve Rogers, Clint Barton, even Thor, who all use weapons acting like Digger's. Some examples of her actively dealing with weapons like this;

When Steve and Widow came across a Black Widow clone, she attacked them and they had to incapacitate her, but you'll notice that Steve's shield didn't quite work: (Captain America and Black Widow #637). Both Widows dodged it three times in quick succession, the first time taunting Steve saying "thanks for the warning", then dodging a ricochet, and then a third one -- and this is all in a pretty enclosed space.

In a ranged battle with Hawkeye, Natasha came more than prepared to deal with his trick arrows:

They are fine feats for Black Widow. Thing is, one weapon. One shield. One arrow. I never questioned Widow's ability to escape one weapon/ coming in one direction. I questioned the essential volley of boomerangs coming from all directions as my scans show. Widow herself has said, her dodging abilities has its limits. This is coming from one gun - one direction - not from funky angles which my would be. Her own words. Cant dodge this forever

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Additionally, I need to mention that I specifically chose the particular bullet timing showing fromSpinning Doomsday's Webthat I posted earlier because it shows Natasha deflecting a sniper round shot as part of an ambush. The Punisher was hidden far away, and she still processed the round coming at her direction, saved the guy it was meant for and herself -- meaning she made a very conscious move to get in its way and intercept it with her gauntlet -- and immediately fired her Bite back at the trajectory. This is not just insane reactions and movement speed, it doubles as a split-second feat of awareness, sensory and tactics. It goes hand in hand with her showings of instinctively using a body shield to stop a surprise sniper round after it was fired from a rooftop(Black Widow Vol. V #7)and having honed her senses to the point where she could hear people's breathing well enough to detect an invicinble Ghost from across the room and even tell her apart from Ant-Man, whose breathing, she says, is different/louder(Thunderbolts Vol. I #133).

The gauntlet block from Punisher is fine. Thing is, that is not a constant feat thus it would be more in the line of WIS or PIS. Natasha is not Wonder Woman and blocking bullets on a constant basis. The reaction feat is standard level for a street brawler that matches her training and her enhanced physique. The feat of using another body has to do with the sound of the gun and her reaction. Regarding the Ghost, maybe he breathes like Darth Vader??? Who knows. All Im saying is that Widow does not have Wolverine, Daredevil senses or reaction like a speedster....say Quicksilver.

So considering Natasha's experience with and knowledge of opponents and teammates either similar or semi-identical to Digger, her reaction speed, battlefield awareness and all-around battle IQ, I don't think Boomerang's boomerangs are catching her off guard at any point.

Perhaps more relevant than all, however, is that Natasha has experience with Marvel's version of Captain Boomerang, only he's just called... Boomerang, A.K.A. Frederick Myers. He first tried to blow her, Nick Fury and Spider-Man up using explosive "boom"erangs. In the same story, he used gas boomerangs.

In the next years, Myers became a recognized member of the Thunderbolts and even had connections with S.H.I.E.L.D. at some point, meaning Natasha's definitely got extra knowledge on him. More recently, he offered Natasha and the allies shelter during the events of Secret Empire, and they had a rather amusing conversation that involved a boomerang pun(Secret Empire Vol. I #3). Basically, Digger and his style will not be a new thing for her.

I merged these comments since I think they are related so Im going to be hesitant on this PoV.

On the Marvel Team Up scan, Widow did not fight Boomerang. Its a little outdated how they wrote Rushman (Widow in the arc) but Natasha was just there. Fury fought Boomerang.

If I remember correctly, Secret Empire was some alternate dimension cuz of a Cosmic Cube. Its not considered canon. In standard 616, as far as I know it, Boomerang and Widow have never met. She was there for Marvel TeamUp. When did Boomerang join SHIELD? Are we assuming Natasha due to her connections knows every SHIELD agent? Studies them like Taskmaster did in the movie? I will agree it makes sense for Natasha to do that. She more likely does that with prep for a mission, but we dont have prep on our opponents. Natasha is not Kisuke Urahara from Bleach.

You are placing Boomerang with Captain Boomerang because of similar trick weapons. This, by feats would be inaccurate along the lines of Steve Rogers and USAgent since they both have round shields. Walker can not ricochet the shield like Steve, if at all. I can even bring you up the scan if you want. Im stating the technique is which they use the Boomerangs are different. Digger throws a boomerang to get a reaction and then throws a series of them as stated by Deadshot.

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My whole argument in this battle is in-character action. If youa re using Boomerang as an equivalent then we are short boomerangs on an attack cuz Myers throws a majority of in-character feats by one boomerang at a time. Very rarely does he throw multiple boomerangs.

I can post all the scans/feats of Boomerang when he threw more than one boomerang on a single line of scans on this very page.

He referred to it as a "lightning boomerang" and designed it to double down, as in, travel forth and back in a straight line, because he knew that's how Barry would run at him to blitz him -- at not particularly great speeds, I imagine, considering Digger has said before Barry could punch him hundreds of times before he could get a word in and described his speed as "unfair"

Digger has said that. I wont deny it. No matter how slow Barry was running though in that old scan of his first appearance - his running will be faster than Widow.

First things first, some of these showings need to be contextualised.

  1. Zod was struck in his exposed brain from behind, while he was in out of control rage. Amanda Waller put an explosive on his brain like the Task Force X's, and he cut his own skull open to get it out, then tried to kill her, and that is when the Squad arrived out of nowhere and Digger threw it in there (Suicide Squad Vol. V #18).
  2. He tagged Man-bat from behind while Deadshot was distracting him, then threw at him again while he was down (Man-bat Vol. IV #2). Also what is Man-bat being faster than Natasha based on? Not saying that he isn't for sure, but I question it. Unless you're talking about travel speed, which is the least relevant category in this section.

1) I wasnt try to mislead on the Zod scan. What you said was correct. It was one of the best Suicide Squad series I can remember. I was more inferring that Zod has higher reaction time than Widow. Maybe he was disoriented for blazing out something out of his brain tho.

2) On the ManBat scan. Maybe I was unclear on the reason of sourcing it. There is a difference between travel and battle speed, so I know you are no rookie here, but I was trying to show that ManBat has echo location and super human hearing similar to Daredevil - give or take the quality of their power. This was going in line with when I said Widow has no power to aid her in locating said attack from Digger. You were trying to say Widow had enhanced hearing cuz of Ghost. ManBat hears Gotham on a city level

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And yet Digger still tagged ManBat with echo-location/ enhanced hearing. The first explosion we can say it was a sneak attack, but the second hit by Digger we all can read that ManBat knew more attacks were coming but couldnt finish the thought. If a person with Area of Effect senses can have trouble with the volley of boomerangs then Im pretty sure Widow will too

Natasha is using guns; a pretty cheap but rather true rule of thumb is that bullets are better than arrows -- or batarangs, or boomerangs. My character can fire a handful of rounds within a second or so, e.g. firing seven times with each pistol before a single emptied cartridge can move more than an inch away from it:

And she's got similar fire rate with her Bite, which can shoot clean through ultron drones:(Avengers: Ultron Forever Vol. I #3). Very doubtful Green Arrow or Tim could match that with their own projectiles for your comparison to hold weight. They're definitely not doing so in those scans. I've also shown Natasha shooting down the wires of a net arrow fired at her by Hawkeye, at very close range. All this essentially means she could shoot down the boomerangs well before they reach a threatening distance -- keep in mind that we are also starting a hundred feet away from each.

We are in character here. Widow isnt pulling out her 22s and start blasting like she is the Punisher or Paladin. She is a street brawler

She only uses her widowbite as an upclose counter when things get serious as a supplement

And starts blasting against group settings - as you have shown

Digger doesnt know Widow for Jack. Not going to compare her with Black Canary even. Im saying Natasha isnt just going to pull out her pistols and start popping off - cuz its not in her battle character

Finally, stealth, which you need to address. I've shown Natasha disappearing out of a vehicle and ghosting a sniper with his scope locked right on her in broad daylight. It's a tactic she used to close in on the Punisher, and it's one she used on Hawkeye too;

And shooting Clint without him being able to detect her even up close is also more ridiculous given he's known for his hypersensory, for instance, detecting Pym's body a floor above him by sensing its heat(West Coast Avengers Vol. II #36). Clearly it's a game Natasha likes to play against marksmen.

You may not know this, but Im a MARVEL reader and especially on the Avengers. So let me contextualize the Hawkeye/Pym scan. Hawkeye is under possession of the Voice. He is altered state to attack Pym. Maybe that focused his hearing on the battle, but Pym is not an assassin. He was a scientist. Hawkeye even had hearing issues and had a hearing aide in this scan.

Also, Clint and Widow were lovers. If there is anyone in the world that Widow has preknowledge on, its Clint. Just had to state that.

As far as the ghosting, the sniper where you ghosted was an NPC level. Even the the person she was with 'ghosted the sniper,"

Im not trying to say you misled here either. She did some Jason Bourne stuff here. Comics are funny this way due to artistic liberty. Is a person really dodging bullets or are they just lucky vs a person with a bad shot type thing. Window's 'ghosting' is not superspeed. Its not turning invisible. Its not teleportation. Its someone getting the drop on someone much like how Punisher returned the favor later- funny how comics work, huh???

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Where's Widow's awareness of the battlefield here?

THINGS HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED

  • Natasha will not be caught off guard by a guy using boomerangs, even trick ones; she's encountered an opponent with the exact same skill set prior, and has knowledge on and direct experience with him. To add to that, she's fought alongside with and against Avengers like Hawkeye and Captain America for years, and I think the scans of her straight up dealing with "trick" projectiles from them should suffice to say she won't underestimate someone who, at first, might not look like the most threatening fighter.

Again, Im not following this. By feats, Digger is the better user of boomerangs than Myers - as per my Steve Rogers and John Walker analogy. Myers is a single boomerang thrower. Digger is not.

  • I've seen no response to Natasha's stealth capabilities as of this point. For now, I'm assuming she should have no issue simply ghosting him using the large number of cover and buildings surrounding us.

And I would say I have the usual weapons to make things go boom, as per the battlefield in the clip.

  • Natasha is not going to be playing avoid and evade like a cocky speedster in front of him, she will be on the offensive from the get-go. Evidence that Captain Boomerang could deal with an opponent of this level firing back needs to be shown. Evidence that Digger could pin down an opponent of Widow's skill, sensory and tactical ability should also be shown. For both these reasons, I don't think it's fair to say that tagging early, inexperienced Flash's who never bothered to look behind them while dodging boomerangs is enough to seal a win here. This was just your opening post, so I expect there'll be more, but it needs to be now (if nothing else, because later I won't be able to address them, lol).

I fully expect Widow to take it serious.

You want a scan of Digger pinning down an opponent on a hit of Widow's ability? Does Batman count?

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I didnt think Green Arrow was a scrub, lol. But if I can focus back on the Batman scan, see how Bats says the boomerang split. Its a logical explanation and why I dont count the art of boomerangs as it could be just artistic liberty. The Bats scan is an actual explanation

I can show vs Parademons where he is supposedly launching like a million boomerangs, but I didnt cuz I knew the scan was an artistic liberty where I rely on Digger or someone holding said weapon

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How about one their first mission in Kuraq?

  • Given the agreement that a fight up close will be one sided, Widow has an additional winning condition/range.

Not in-character she doesnt.

  • It's also worth noting that Digger has a fairly limited amount of ammo and options relative to Widow. He cannot afford to throw everything he has at her from the get-go.

As shown, above, Digger has thrown many boomerangs with effect. He usually throws an opener first, but then the volley comes.

But this is important cuz Im going to draw comparison here to show the boomerang attack will cause trouble (lack of echolocation not withstanding here).

Notice Shang-Chi, master of kung-fu even states that he cannot avoid all of the boomerangs thrown by Myers. He is only throwing one boomerang at a time. Its cuz Shang Chi, doesnt have an Area of Effect ability. He has some heightened senses due to training.

Is Black Widow more trained than Shang Chi?

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This is another MARVEL counterpart similar to Widow in Iron Fist. Rand even states 'a single boomerang' and the course of action tagged the Iron Fist. He actually gets owned in this appearance.

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My argument for the entire fight is if single boomerangs are causing Iron Fist and Shang Chi. The rule of thought is that Iron Fist is above Widow in fighting. Shang Chi even better than Fist. Now Im adding more boomerangs into the fight. And this is from the MARVEL perspective, though I say Digger is better cuz he is tasked vs metas.

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