Respect Patsy Walker--Hellcat!

Respect Patsy Walker--Hellcat!

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Prepare for many words.


Hellcat, aka Patsy Walker, is a fascinating character for many reasons. She is unusual because she was originally a mega-star in Marvel’s pre-Marvel romance comics, starring in multiple long-running series. These were similar to the Betty and Veronica stories in Archie comics. Her first appearance was in 1944. More than a third of her total appearances are from these romance comics.

The romance comics actually crossed over into Marvel modern (post-Fantastic Four) era, but were dwindling. Then in 1965 Marvel decided to have her show up in the Fantastic Four annual where Reed and Sue got married, bringing her into the 616 universe for the first time.

They soon had her interacting with Beast in Amazing Adventures, where she left her romance-era husband Buzz Baxter and blackmailed Beast into letting her hang out with the Avengers, which was her dream. She managed to find a copy of Greer Nelson’s original Cat costume (Greer is now known as Tigra) and, putting it on, became Hellcat.

She went on a couple adventures with the Avengers, but turned down the opportunity to join permanently in order to instead take Moondragon up on her invitation to train Patsy’s mind and body on Titan. She did so, learning fighting skills and mental powers under Moondragon’s tutelage. She returned to Earth and joined the Defenders, where she became one of their core members for years (1977-83; issues 44-125).

Her Titan-trained psychic powers lasted only a little while; Moondragon took them back during an adventure involving Omega the Unknown. However, they occasionally showed up afterwards on a somewhat random basis.

During that time, she met and fell in love with Daimon Hellstrom: America's daughter, "the girl who could be you," was paired up with the Son of Satan. Both she and Hellstrom went through a phase where they wrangled with their real and believed parentage. For a time, Patsy believed she was the daughter of Satan, just as Daimon was the son of Satan. However, this turned out to not be true.

This story with her mother was the first in-universe explanation of Patsy’s long sojourn in romance comics. Those comics, which were printed in actual reality, were also printed in-universe. In 616, Patsy was a child star, the focus of a whole world of comics and cross-platform publishing. Patsy’s mother controlled her in this career with a domineering hand. Eventually Patsy left that career, and her mother; hard feelings existed on both sides. Eventually this led to her mother trying (and failing) to sell Patsy’s soul. Today, Patsy continues to be famous in 616 for her work as a child star, as well as her more recent career as a popular author.

Back to the story: Patsy eventually married Hellstrom (a wedding which was marred by the appearance of her ex, Buzz Baxter, now a supervillain called Mad-Dog). Patsy and Daimon left the Defenders and started a paranormal investigation business. This went well for a while, but Daimon became more unstable and eventually regained his Darksoul, which Patsy helped to happen. The reality of his dark side turned her insane and she killed herself.

Patsy spent years in hell, fighting in the pit of the damned, often alongside fellow-deceased-Avenger Mockingbird. There she gained even more fighting skills. She was resurrected due to a scheme by Hellstrom that involved tricking Hawkeye into thinking he was rescuing Mockingbird.

Alive once more, her powers changed. She now had the ability to sense and avoid magic. She was involved in several solo or small-group mini-series, including Hellcat, where she solved a war between Mephisto, Dormammu, and Hellstrom; Patsy Walker: Hellcat, where she had magical adventures with native Alaskans as part of the Avengers Initiative; Marvel Divas, where she, Black Cat, Firestar, and Monica Rambeau took on Hellstom and other issues as a group of Sex and the City-like friends; and Patsy Walker, A.K.A. Hellcat, which portrayed her at a younger-seeming age and was told in a more all-ages format.

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Powers Controversy

Normally a respect thread wouldn’t go into all that history. But it’s important, because there is confusion about where she gets her powers.

Recall that Patsy found the original suit of the Cat. She put it on, and got the Cat’s powers, because the suit was what gave the Cat her powers.

Except that that wasn’t actually the case. Greer Nelson got her original Cat powers through an experimental treatment that directly affected her body. She had the powers long before she wore the suit. So wearing the suit should not have given Patsy any powers.

But, that’s how they explained it, so that’s what happened. Except, after a few years in the Defenders, they pointed out that Patsy had replaced all the parts of her suit many times due to wear and tear, so the suit couldn’t be the origin of her powers, and that she was just as athletic without the suit on. They showed her wearing one pair of the uniform while holding another pair and talking about how it got wrecked. There was not much of an explanation for how she got so athletic, other than that she surfed a lot as a kid. This also didn’t explain her clearly-super strength.

Soon after, when Patsy thought she was the daughter of Satan, Satan explained that the suit did sort of have powers, but it really just brought out the natural athleticism she always had. Seemingly, the suit transferred its powers to her, or in any case its effects permanently affected her.

But, then it turned out Satan was lying about being her dad (here, here, and here), so he could well have been lying about her suit, too. However, she was still seen leaping around without her costume in Defenders after that, so seemingly Satan's "the suit prodded her natural abilities awake" explanation was still the explanation for her powers. Years later, when Patsy was on a talk show, she seemed to support this idea, saying that she was “naturally athletic,” and the costume “augmented that.”

This would all change again. Shortly after leaving the Defenders, in an arc of West Coast Avengers, Patsy meets Greer Nelson, now Tigra. Nelson loses her Tigra form, so Patsy gives her the Cat costume, since it originally belonged to her. The story specifically explains how, by putting on the suit again, Nelson’s stats are increased, and she is able to defeat an enemy with similar stats. Then Nelson turns back into Tigra, clearly destroying the suit as one of the main plot points of the story.

So, if the suit is the source of the power, Patsy should definitely not have any powers any more, because that suit was definitively destroyed.

But, Patsy showed up again not long after, once again wearing the same kind of suit and still exhibiting her powers. I have seen an explanation online that this is possible because Nelson and the original suit-designer (Dr. Tumulo) saved multiple copies of the suit when it was originally made. But the original comic is very clear that Dr. Tumulo only took one, as seen in the original and a flashback, and anyway this doesn’t jive with the fact that the suit didn't give Greer Nelson her powers anyway, or with Patsy’s original explanation that she just replaced the suit parts as they wore out with normal cloth.

Very long story short: there have been specific plot-points, with concomitant feats, that have pointedly explained that the suit is the source of Patsy’s powers. There have also been specific plot-points, with concomitant feats, that have pointedly explained that the suit is not the source of Patsy’s powers.

One other powers-related inconsistency/evolution: remember that Moondragon trained Patsy to have psychic powers, which did not ever come from her suit—although they somewhat replicated powers the original Cat had (see The Cat's powers at the very bottom of this thread). Then Moondragon took these powers away. But, Patsy still used those powers on occasion anyway, without any real explanation as to how, other than that she was possessed by a demon at one point, who again, like her costume, may have woken up her natural abilities.

Later on, after she died and was resurrected, she got new, clearly innate powers—the ability to sense and deflect magic, but also the kind of random ability to magically and instantly change into her costume. So even though these magic powers were innate, they were still connected to her costume! This also made a nice link between the Cat’s original “intuition” power, Patsy’s Titan psychic powers, and her current magic powers.

Since then, there have been a few instances where they say her costume is the source of her powers—which makes no sense since there really is no normal physical costume that she puts on, she just creates it, and can use her agility without it.

My personal explanation, which is not at all backed up on-panel, is this: Greer Nelson gained her powers from an experimental machine. When she wore the original Cat suit, her body’s power-radiance transferred the aura of her powers to the suit. Patsy wore the suit, which then transferred its powers into her. Even though she kept changing the suit, Patsy’s powers would transfer themselves back into any new suits she wore—in addition to also staying in her own body. Thus, when she gave a suit to Nelson, it once again radiated its powers back into Nelson—but Patsy never lost her powers. (Nelson, however, lost her Cat powers when she turned into Tigra.) Then when Patsy came back from hell, she internalized the idea of the suit as the symbol of her powers, and changes into it as a mental reinforcement of her innate abilities. Even that doesn’t fully explain it all, but I think it’s the best shot.

Who knows?
Who knows?

All clear? Don’t care? No problem. Let’s get to the feats. I will say ahead of time, this will involve a fair amount of scaling, partly to dig into the Cat/Hellcat relationship, and also because a lot of Patsy's opponents are not well-known.

Happy Go Lucky Spirit

Alright one last detour we get to powers. Let's revel in Patsy's happy-go-lucky spirit, which I think is best encapsulated here as she punches out an Einstein clone and looks for an Oppenheimer.

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Summary of Powers

She has enhanced dexterity, to near-Spider-man or -Beast levels; enhanced speed; enhanced strength, to around 1-5 tons; and enhanced durability, especially to blunt force.

She can magically change into her costume, sense magic, and deflect magic attacks.

She used to have mind-blasts and telekinesis. She also temporarily had a Shadow Cloak like Devil-slayer’s.

Her costume has claws on the hands and sometimes feet, and a grappling claw on a line that she can use to swing around or tie people up.

She is a fairly skilled fighter, with Avengers training; training from Moondragon, one of 616’s most-skilled martial artists; and years of combat experience in hell. Her signature move is a double kick.

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Patsy’s official stats have always underestimated her actual feats to some degree.

The Deluxe OHOTMU from the mid-80s, soon after her time in the Defenders, says her strength is that of someone who engages in “intensive regular exercise”—which is to say, is normal human strength.

However, in the '70s and '80s, Patsy was throwing couches and breaking concrete with Hulk's face.

This modern data page (2005) describes Hellcat’s skills as being “an exceptional athlete and martial artist.” Her intelligence is 3, “learned.” Her strength is 3, “peak human,” up to 800 pounds. Her durability is 3, “enhanced.” Her fighting skills are 5, “master of a single form of combat.”

In this era, Patsy was drop-kicking giant wolves, tilting over SUVs, and swinging trees like baseball bats, so peak human is still low, but the other numbers are more accurate.

The current History of the Marvel Universe says that she has "notably enhanced agility."

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Patsy's agility and acrobatics are her prime ability. She is close to Spider-man or Beast agility levels.

Spider-man says Patsy is “almost as fast and agile” as him.

Her agility is enough to work out alongside Beast, a regular gynmastic partner in both the Avengers and Defenders. She was capable of being thrown an enormous height in the air and landing on one hand, balancing on Beast’s one foot. (Notice she does this without her Hellcat uniform.)

Typical leaping and flipping around rooftops, partially using grappling claw.

Swinging all around the city using grappling claws.

Falls out of Daimon Hellstrom’s grip while flying 100’ feet in the air. Lands safely with no problem, with multiple flips.

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Long Leaps

Leaping between mega-skyscrapers with significant distances between them.

More leaping between significantly-distant buildings.

Leaps multiple stories straight from the ground to a rooftop.

Jumps multiple stories by bouncing off a wall.

Jumps all around She-hulk.

Leaps up to the top of a lightpole.

Leaps across an alley, balances on a railing.

Multiple long leaps.

Leaps multiple stories up using a swing around a flagpole.

Leaps to the fourth-floor windows of a building, using multiple flips but only one ricochet-bounce, while completely hammered drunk.

Then flips around over a big robot, again while completely hammered.


Flips around for no reason, just because that’s who she is.

Has a friendly competition/playful game of agility with Tigra. See "Comparison with Tigra," below, but TD;LR is that Tigra should be more agile than her, and is herself spider-level in agility.

Rides two racing horses simultaneously by standing up on both of their backs.

A representative example of a totally unnecessary but skilled use of acrobatics.

Flips around a machine Nighthawk designed to catch him, for training, including doing a one-handed flip and dodging rings, until finally being caught and then doing flips while her legs are caught. It should be noted that Nighthawk is also a highly trained acrobat (that’s what he did before he had wings) and has superhuman speed at night, plus he has wings, so anything designed to catch him is a real challenge.

Flipping Fighting Style

Leaps and flips straight up above a giant monster and lands on its head.

Flipping-around fighting style.

Fights by leaping and swinging above the fray.

Fights by leaping onto people from above.

Starts on the back of a snowmachine, leaps off, lands on a polar-bear-monster’s head

Leaps on top of a bad guy, then later swings up again and steals his cape.

More flipping around above the fray.

Patsy quickly defeats a mugger by landing on him.


Because of her agility, Patsy can dodge pretty solidly. She's not a bullet-timer, but can dodge energy beams and bullets effectively.

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Physical Dodging

Dodges giant ice monster’s claw attack.

Dodges giant monkey god’s sweeping arm, twice.

Dodges multiple strikes from She-hulk before getting hit.

Dodges punch from the superhumanly-fast Hyperion.

Dodges swooping attack from behind from Cap’n Hawk, after being warned.

Dodges punch from the superhumanly-fast Hulk.

Dodges bull-rush from the superhumanly-fast Hulk.

Dodges thrown metal from the superhumanly-fast Wonder Man.

Dodges bull-rush from Amphibion.

Dodged punch from Hulk and charge from Namor, who both have enhanced speed. They are in a ghostly form here but if anything are amped rather than hindered by it.

Dodges falling lamp dropped by mystical creature.

Dodges a bunch of snowball-like creatures.

Dodges debris thrown by demon.

Dodges demon’s strike.

Energy Blasts

Dodges magic energy blast from Serpent Crown.

Dodges two blasts of hellfire from original Ghost Rider.

Dodges fire blast from Firestar.

Dodges sweeping anvil-arm from Awesome Android.

Dodges multiple point-blank magic energy blasts from Mephisto.

Dodges multiple attacks from Red Guardian. And again.

Dodges blast from Volcana (singes boot).

Dodges magic blast from sorcerer.

Dodges multiple magic blasts from sorcerer.

Knocks Red Guardian out of the way of a blast, then dodges multiple energy blasts while escaping.

Dodges two blasts from Scorpio, plus a ruptured floor.

Dodges demon’s blast.


Dodges Foolkiller’s ray gun. And again.

Dodges three more blasts from Foolkiller.

Dodges multiple bullets.

Dodges bullets.

Dodges shots from Sagittarius and closes in to melee range.


Patsy's speed is not as obviously enhanced as her agility, but she is fairly fast. Remember that Spidey said she was nearly as agile AND as fast as him.

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Patsy kicks a gun out of a guy’s hand before he can shoot. He exclaims, “But…that’s impossible! No one can move that fast!”

Patsy kicks a gun out of a guy’s hand before he can shoot.

Someone throws a knife. Patsy intercepts it.

A guy holds a gun on Patsy, point blank. She changes into her costume and knocks away the gun before he can shoot.

A guy holds a gun on Patsy, point blank. She grabs his gun arm and breaks a bottle on him before he can react. The narrator points out that “Patsy is faster than most people assume.”

Dodges a simultaneous attack by Triathalon (later 3D Man, he has triple-normal speed and strength) and She-hulk.

Grabs the flaming ribbon of a demon who is copying her, and has shown equal levels of agility.

Hank Pym is thrown off a skyscraper. Patsy, a distance away, see him mid-fall and is able to swing to him in time before he hits the ground. Someone reaches 150mph after 10 seconds of falling. He wasn’t falling that long, but it gives a general sense of how fast she must have reached him.

Patsy and Tigra catch Whirlwind, who is extremely fast. They make a note of the speed of their reflexes. He notes that almost no one is able to lay a hand on him. Whirlwind moves so fast that cops trying to grab him can’t see where he went. Whirlwind is fast enough to run up the side of a building.

He tries to attack her with his spinning moves, but she dodges out of the way. Tigra, whose speed should be fairly comparable, although higher, than Patsy’s, makes Whirlwind exclaim, “Nobody told me you really could move so fast!” He is shocked by her, and presumably Patsy’s, speed.

Patsy is able to hold her own with Tigra while climbing up a building; granted she uses her grappling claw.

Swishes around a pillar fast enough to hit her attacker.

Strength/Striking power

Patsy is superhumanly strong. Her strength has varied over time, and her post-resurrection feats are somewhat better than before. I would overall rate her at a 1-5 tonner.

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With Nighthawk, who is also a couple-tonner, holds together a giant Atlantean ship.

Swings sizeable tree (2’ diameter, 20’ long?) like a baseball bat.

Tilts a giant stone tablet, maybe four feet in diameter and a couple feet thick.

Tilts an SUV over on its side.

Easily lifts and carries Nighthawk.

Holds a giant bear-monster in the air with one arm.

Holds a giant yeti in the air with one arm.

Pulls Bruce Banner up on her claws, then carries him on her back while running.

Picks a guy up, holds him under one arm, and jumps across an alleyway with him.


Grabs and spins a huge bear-monster around in a circle so fast it blurs.

Drop-kicks a giant wolf-being a significant distance. Note that its head is bigger than she is.

Punches another version of herself through the air, for 15+ feet.

Throws a demon 15+ feet.

Kicks a guy out a window and across an alleyway.

Lifts and throws a couch a significant distance.

Knocks She-hulk backwards with a double-kick.

Knocks Hulk off plane with double kick.

Tilts over huge metal cauldron filled with liquid metal using double-kick.

Capable of physically wrestling with large demon.

And again.

Physically out-strengths muscular demon.

Punches large demon backwards.

Knocks out demon with punch.

Knocks polar bear-monster's head to the ground by landing on it.

Strong enough to knock this Yeti-guy, who is significantly heavier than her, off a ship, then hold him at her mercy.

Knocks down the much-larger Shocker, from the Mutant Force, with a double-kick.

Swings and tosses a giant Yeti-guy a long distance.

Smacks a ball up to the top in a classic carnival strength game.

Breaking Stuff

Lands on Hulk’s head, knocking him down and breaking chunks of concrete in the process.

Breaks stone chunks off Volcana with a crowbar.

While training on Titan, breaks a robot in half with a double-kick.

Breaks apart chains.

Kicks a door off its hinges.

Kicks a zombie’s head off.

Smashes three concrete blocks.

Punches off a car door, high into the air.

Kicks a fire hydrant off its foundation.


Mystic Senses/Slipperiness with Magic

After her resurrection, Patsy has various magic-related powers.

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Says she can “smell magic.” She was drawn to a mystic situation in Alaska by her “super-psychic sniffing abilities.”

Can “sense mystic energy.”

Can “sense mystic energies.”

Due to time in hell, now has “demon-sight.”

Could sense that someone was mystically controlling bedbugs.

While in hell, can sense magic traps, and find a pathway to their goal, that even Mephisto can’t sense.

Senses incoming magic attack before it happens.

Has "demon-sight" that can tell someone is not fully human.

Can see that people are actually disguised demons.

Senses that a guy is a dangerous demon before he attacks.

Senses the location of a demon who is mimicking her.

Can sense the name and exact location of a sorcerer.

Can see magic, but also normal invisible lasers.

When She-hulk implies Patsy is a normal human, Patsy points out that She-hulk asked her to use her powers two days ago.

Slipping out of Magic

While in Hell, she learned more about magic, and can now “twist and slide free of it, like a cat!” Escapes magic bonds.

Can “shift just so” and magic “glances off [her] aura like a polarized light off a screen.” Magic blast deflects off her.

Slips out of a magic bind created by Daimon Hellstrom.

Her powers can resist blasts from the wearer of the Serpent Crown, an incredibly powerful magic artifact. Notes how she can “slip free” of magical attacks. The attacker backs up the existence of this ability.

Changing into Costume

Old Psychic Powers


Her costume was made by the magic cat people (the scientist who made it was a cat-person), using both science and magic.

OK, this is actually not her gear.
OK, this is actually not her gear.

IR lenses

The original Hellcat costume had lenses so the wearer could see in the dark. To my knowledge, Patsy has never specifically said her costume can do this, but it would be strange if it couldn't, since it has all the other capabilities of the original costume. Patsy can see things like invisible lasers just by using her mystic senses, however.


Her suit is insulated against electricity. Here, Mutant Force’s Shocker created an electric field. She is dropped in it and survives with no problem.

Her suit is insulated against cold.


She has claws on her fingers, and sometimes on her toes. She can use these claws for combat, for climbing buildings, and for destroying hard materials.

Breaks chunks off giant rock Dr. Strange. Does it again.

Claws draw blood from Red Hulk.

Claws open the face of a sorcerer; not afraid to hurt people.

Guts demon.

Claws are on the hands, and sometimes on the feet.

Claws the uniform off AIM agent.

Claws are retractable.

Can claw through her own strong grapple cable.


She has grapple-claws that she can launch off both hands; they are connected by a strong cable. She can use this to swing around the city like Spider-man or Daredevil, to disarm, or to wrap up people's legs and trip them.

Grapples Ghost Rider off his bike.

Grapples Tiger Shark, who is swimming faster than harbor patrol boats, while on a swerving boat herself.

Wraps grapples around the legs of a giant monkey god to trip him.

Wraps grapples around Tiger Shark, who is a 50-75 tonner. Describes it as a steel-niobium alloy.

Grapples the highly-agile Black Cat.

Grapple-wraps a demon.

Grapples a car’s hood open.

Grapples huge machine; when Wonder Man pulls on the cables, they don’t break, but instead pull down the machine.

Uses grapple to pull down furniture on demon.

Swings on a grapple to grab Ruby Thursday, then pulls her up in the air and drops her.

Grapples a stalactite, then pulls herself up to double-kick Master Pandemonium with the momentum.

Grapples Bruce Banner and pulls him up off the ground.

Grapples a plane taking off.

Grapples a gizmo away from the superhumanly-fast hands of Whirlwind.

Grapples the Scorpio Key while it's in the air.

Sets up grapples so people can climb down them to escape a fire.

Pierces a guy’s shoulder with her grappling claws.

Shadow Cloak

For a while, she wore a Shadow Cloak just like the one Devil-slayer uses. She eventually got rid of it due to the danger it poses. You can teleport by wrapping the Shadow Cloak around you, you can control its ends like tendrils, and you can reach into it and pull out any weapon you want.

Pulls a dagger out of it and throws it.

Pulls a monster out of the Cloak—the only time this has been done.

Tangles up multiple women warriors and throws them.

Skilled in using its movement.

Uses her psychic connection to the Cloak to teleport through it, even when she’s not wearing it--something Devil-slayer never did.

Teleports from one dimension (earth) to another (hell).


On a couple of occasions, Patsy drove a convertible sports car she called the Hellcatmobile. It had no discernable special features.

Skill/Fighting Techniques

Her skill comes from three sources: the Avengers, Moondragon's personal tutelage, and fighting for years in the pits of Hell.

Accepted Moondragon’s offer to train on Titan. Moondragon is one of the most technically skilled martial artists in the Marvel Universe.

On a talk show, notes that Moondragon “really taught me skill.”

After being condescended to by She-hulk, Patsy takes her down and notes that she has “been combat training since, like, forever.”

Notes that she had “Combat training. Years of it.”

She fought for years in the Pit of the Damned in Hell, and increased in skill while there. Kicks the assault rifle out of a soldier’s hand.

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She often fights using double-kicks, seen also under striking power. The following are all examples of attacks that use technical skill.

Uses an arm-throw on a guy.

Moondragon, an extremely skilled martial artist, describes a demon as “faster than he looks.” Patsy grabs the giant demon’s hand and flips with it, locking him. Patsy says she’s “not your pupil any longer,” and Moondragon agrees, saying “I…see that, Patsy!”

After a double-kick, she arm-throws a guy.

Grabbed from behind by two super-strong Lunatiks, she throws them both.

Throws a guard.

Lifts another guard to throw him.

Throws Satan.

Wraps her legs around Daimon Hellstrom’s neck and breaks it.

Tosses a sorcerer using a double-kick-throw.

Double-kicks Leo, then tosses him using a double-kick throw.

Chop to the back of the neck.

Uses an elbow strike to the neck.

After disarming a guy, chops him on the back of the neck, then rides him into a tree.

Disarms a sorcerer after closing in past his energy blasts.

Uses an arm-lock to disarm a guy, then a forearm strike to the neck.

Sends multiple guys flying.

Flying kick to the throat. And again.

Simultaneously grabs a guy’s nunchucks to hit another guy; blocks and grabs a pole-arm, and kicks another guy.

Simultaneously fights with two very unwieldy weapons that are used very differently--a polearm and nunchucks—while also kicking. Manages to target specific areas, like blocking incoming attacks, or hitting throats, while doing so.

Blocks five shuriken with one sweep of her nunchucks, showing incredible accuracy. Then kicks two guys at once, each with a different foot, which would be incredibly difficult.

Two separate, simultaneous kicks.

A classic Hellcat double-kick.

Fights a dinosaur with a spear.

Critiques a guy’s fighting form, then one-shot punches him.

Accurately throws dagger.


Hellcat has not gotten in a huge amount of one-on-one fights, but the ones she has been in have shown off her abilities well.

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Vs Mind-Controlled Tigra

Patsy beats a mind-controlled, bloodlusted Tigra. Tigra slashes Patsy in the shoulder. It’s not clear if Patsy throws her or if Tigra jumps away. Tigra slashes through a chair and Patsy pops her on the head with it, collapsing Tigra to the ground in pain. Tigra severely guts Patsy with her claws. Now Patsy is on the ground in pain. Then Patsy knocks Tigra on the head with a rock and knocks her out, and keeps her from falling off the roof. Patsy wins, and stays awake long enough to call for help.

See "Comparison with Tigra" below for why this is impressive.

Vs Mind-controlled Valkyrie

They fight evenly, but with context.

Patsy pulls a sword out of the Shadow Cloak, and manages to hold her own in sword-fighting against Valkyrie, one of the most skilled warriors in Asgard. As she notes, “I don’t know the first thing about sword-fighting, and Val practically invented it!”

Patsy uses her agility and speed to dodge Val’s strikes. Even Val is amazed how fast she is, saying “How can you move so swiftly?” Val eventually disarms her, then Patsy is able to remind Val of her true self.

One reason Hellcat can keep up with Val is because Val is cursed by a spell from the Enchantress, which keeps her from fighting women. By fighting Patsy, Val becomes weaker. However, Val is still a 45 tonner to start off with, and has been able to find ways to win against women in other situations. When she fought this woman on the first page, Val moved faster than the eye, employed her enhanced strength, and used pressure points to avoid having to use more direct violence; on the third page she uses her durability in a tactical way; she dodges effectively, and causes harm by using a trip and by causing damage through the medium of a chair instead of directly.

For Patsy to do as well as she does here, it requires great skill and speed.

To give a baseline sense of Valkyrie: she was fast enough to routinely deflect bullets at the time (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8). She beat (at least for a temporary take-down) the highly-skilled Lady Deathstrike, and was strong enough to throw tanks. So even when fighting a woman, like did with Hellcat, Val still had plenty of options to take her out. It's a solid feat for Hellcat.

Black Cat 1

Beats Black Cat.

Patsy jumps on Felicia. Felicia throws a kick which Patsy grabs. She throws Black Cat against a wall and grapples her.

Black Cat 2

Patsy beats Black Cat again.

Black Cat, who has defeated and fought evenly with numerous Spider-man villains such as Scorpion, and is both agile and skilled, stabs Patsy.

Patsy quickly leaps over her, grabs the knife, and puts her in a submission hold. Patsy is then sucked into a magic bag by someone else.

Felicia's pretty quick wins over Black Cat are pretty solid. Black Cat, who has multiple black belts, is often underestimated, so here's a quick run-down on some of her fights:

Felicia beats Spidey through his holding back and using strategy/the environment, then he beats her, then she wins.

Felicia stomps Silk when Silk is tired; then beats her again, then beats her again. I don’t know a lot about Silk's exact abilities in relation to Peter, but my understanding is that she is not as strong as Peter, but is more agile and has a better Spider sense.

Felicia beats an early Sabretooth; like Wolverine, his healing factor back then was not as good as now, but he was still a formidable foe even then.

In maybe her best fight, Felicia fights equally with the Lizard, who is stronger and faster than Peter, and he definitely does not hold back here. She eventually wins by kicking him off a roof, but she was fighting absolutely equally—claw for claw—with him throughout.

Given the dexterity and skill that Black Cat already shows in her first fight with Patsy--for instance when she flips through a laser grid, deflecting lasers off mirrors on her arms and legs to specific targets--Patsy's two clear wins over her feline foe are excellent testaments to her fighting ability.


Valkyrie, Nighthawk, and Hellcat each fight a copy of Lunatik. Lunatik is superhumanly strong, durable, and agile. Patsy beats him.

Val’s fight with a Lunatik shows that he is strong enough to break a lamp-post and knock down Valkyrie, skilled enough to fight the sword-master Valkyrie in weapons-fighting, can take two hits from her and still fight, and agile enough to balance on the end of his pole and bounce off a tree.

Hellcat double-kicks her Lunatik in the back; he tosses her, then spanks her in the butt with his pole. Then she wins with an unanswered set of a kick, a double-kick, and a double-neck-chop.

Here’s an earlier, longer fight between Valkyrie and Lunatik, a later one with multiple Lunatiks against Valkyrie, and a fight between Lunatik and three Defenders plus Spider-man, to give more of a sense of Lunatik's abilities.

Mad-dog 1

Patsy easily beats Buzz Baxter when he is a normal human.

Mad-dog 2

Buzz gets powers and becomes Mad-dog, and attacks Patsy’s wedding to Hellstrom. He fights a whole team of Defenders and loses, but succeeds in drugging Patsy.

He is a couple-tonner, with enhanced agility, durability, and drugged fangs.

He is tough: he is hit twice by the master martial artist Moondragon, then psi-blasted by her. He is able to throw her and knock her out. Then he tosses Hellstrom and is about to hurt Patsy when Moondragon psi-blasts him again.

He punches Patsy, but she shrugs off his superhuman blow. She kicks him, then he drugs her with his fangs. Luckily Moondragon and Hellstrom finish him off.

Mad-dog 3

Mad-dog kidnaps Patsy but she beats him.

Baxter drugs Patsy again. She wakes up, still affected by the drug.

She elbows him, but he locks her arm. He kicks her on the ground. She claws him multiple times on the chest, then he punches her off. She bites him, then kicks him off, then knocks him out by smacking his head into a crate.

This fight shows she can beat someone with similar levels of enhanced strength, who is a trained soldier, and she can absorb superhuman blows—all while drugged.

Patsy and Beast vs Squadron Supreme members Cap’n Hawk, Amphibion, and Tom Thumb

In her first major superhuman fight, Patsy and Beast team up against against multiple Squadron members. Patsy takes out the superhuman Amphibion on her own, but is caught in some glue. Beast finishes off the others.

Spars Mockingbird

While in Hell, Patsy and Mockingbird spar evenly.

They aren’t trying to win, just talk while fighting, but fight at the same level. Mockingbird is a very trained fighter. They both dodge bullets at the end.

Mockingbird can fight evenly with Hawkeye, and is fast and skilled enough to dodge and deflect his arrows. (This is technically an LMD, but one proven to be as accurate as the real Hawkeye.)


Defeats a sorcerer.

A sorcerer blasts at her, but she closes in past his attack and claws him cruelly in the face. He hits her with a blast and she shrugs it off. She dodges several more blasts, disarms him, kick-throws him, and has him at her mercy.

Five Magic Ninjas

Patsy beats five magic demon-ninjas, who are all armed.

They try to capture her with magic, but she escapes it. Then she puts on a master class of fighting unarmed against multiple armed opponents, taking their weapons and using them against them, with great precision. Most impressively, she simultaneously wields a polearm and nunchucks, which would be incredibly awkward, and deflects five shuriken with one swipe of her nunchuks.

Satan and Demons

Patsy beats some demons.

She throws one demon and kicks another in the face. One demon grabs Patsy from behind. She double-elbows it, then knocks it off with her powerful butt! Then she throws Satan (in a semi-human form) and punches him several times, then lifts him to throw him once more—but transforms into a semi-demonic form herself due to his magic. He points out that no normal human could do to him what she has done, even before she transforms.

Three Demons

Defeats three demons.

Physically beats up muscular demon, and ends up gutting it with her claws. Ties another one up with her grappling line. Then physically beats up a third demon.

Four-armed Demon

She beats a skilled, four-armed demon with multiple weapons.

She dodges numerous near-simultaneous attacks with weapons that have a long reach, then closes in past his many weapons and two-shots him with a kick and a face-claw.

Four Demons

Beats four super-strong, armed demons.

She dodges the first demon’s attack and uses a hand-lock to put him on the ground, uses a double-kick-toss to throw a second one into the first, dodges and then claws the third, and knocks the fourth off a ledge.

This fight doesn't look big, but features a nice combination of skill and ferocity.


Single-handedly destroys at least 22 Doombots, knocking many of their heads off.

Note that she is not wearing her Hellcat uniform.

These seem to not be the most powerful Doombots, but Doombots can be serious foes. For example, one Doombot took repeated blows and blasts from Luke Cage, Carole Danvers, and Jessica Jones. Another took repeated blasts from Victor Mancha and Karolina Dean. Others are more easily defeated. However, Reed Richards does say that a Doombot is supposed to be able to stand in for Doom, and be just as effective as him.

I don't want to make too big a deal out of this; I don't think these are top-of-the-line Doombots. But beating 22 of any robot at once is pretty damn good.

Many Mind-controlled Women

Patsy has the Shadow Cloak. At least 9 mind-controlled female scientists attack.

These women are not trained fighters. Patsy defeats them while having to hold back from hurting them, and one by one taking away their mind control. The end of the fight isn’t shown on panel but it is clear that she wins.


Helps She-hulk defeat a horde of zombies.

Avengers vs Dead Avengers, including Patsy

This took place while Patsy was in Hell. The fight doesn’t show all the details, but we see Patsy kick Scarlet Witch in the face, draw blood from Firestar with her foot claws, dodge a blast from Firestar, and break some heavy chains off Justice. These pages aren’t all sequential.

Devil-form Hellcat

Patsy transformed into a more devilish version of herself on a couple of occasions, when influenced by demons like Satan and Avarrish. She was able to blast people with mystic power in this form.

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"Stuns" Daimon Hellstrom with a blast.

Simultaneously blasts Dr. Strange and Valkyrie.

Blasts Strange, knocking him out.

Blasts Namor, Hulk, and Hellstrom powerfully enough to make them all kneel.

Resists Hellstrom’s exorcism and hellfire, knocking him out.

Knocks down Valkyrie with a blow, and lifts and throws Nighthawk.

Strong enough to choke Valkyrie.

Comparisons with Tigra and the Original Cat Costume, AKA Scale-o-Mania

Obviously, Patsy's powers and history are very intertwined with those of Greer Nelson, The Cat/Tigra.

Greer Nelson: From the Cat to Tigra

First, Hellcat’s suit, which most stories describe as the source of her powers, was originally designed for Greer Nelson, when she was The Cat. (As described in the intro, the original Cat stories said Greer got her powers from scientific experiments that directly affected her body, but this has been ignored since then.) So Cat-era Greer Nelson feats should pretty much all be replicable by Patsy.

Dr. Tremulo, who made the suit, says it was “designed to give outworlders the powers of our people through artificial means.” It succeeded and made Greer “something very like an artificial Tigra.” So the suit is near-Tigra level.

However, Nelson has said that the Cat suit was “designed to extend any woman’s strengths, but especially mine!”, implying it might enhance other women less than it does for Greer. So the Cat may have abilities slightly higher than Hellcat.

Once Greer turned into Tigra, her abilities were enhanced.(somewhat contradicting the idea that the suit is Tigra-level on its own). Then they were enhanced again when she regained her Tigra form while wearing the Cat suit; seemingly the suit's powers and her Tigra powers were merged.

So, Patsy should have feats a few tiers below Tigra. However, this is not the case. When they fought against Whirlwind and Tiger Shark, they were equally effective. And when they fought recently when Tigra was mind-controlled, Patsy won.

The Cat's Powers: a Mini-Cat Respect Thread

Basic Description

Greer's powers as The Cat included enhanced strength and agility, enhanced intelligence and the ability to quickly absorb information. She had a sixth sense that was like intuition or empathy, where she could sense pain in other beings, as well as danger, and enhanced natural senses as well. These show the basics: one, two.

Other flashbacks to this scene that use slightly different descriptions of her abilities ("incredible physical power and coordination"): here and here.

So Patsy should theoretically have all these abilities, at basically the same level. However, there are also Cat feats and abilities Patsy has never quite used, like Cat’s enhanced normal senses, or sense of intuition, or hyper-intelligence. Patsy’s magical senses are likely based on, but not the same as, Cat’s senses.

The Cat's Senses and Intuition

Her senses can pick up sonar.

Can sense that a guy’s wounds are too bad for him to survive.

The Cat suit’s eyes have night vision. Seen again. Seen again. And again.

Senses danger.

Can follow another car filled with crooks with “radar-like sensitivity.”

Senses the presence of Dr. Tumulo.

Can pick a lock due to her “super sensitivity.”

Can detect how a machine works and immediately see any problems it has.

The other woman who underwent the treatment was able to memorize the complicated equipment used, and replicate it. Greer’s abilities “far exceeded” Shirlee’s.

The Cat's Strength

The Owl notes that she is “amazingly strong.”

Knocks Man-bull over.

Hits Man-bull so hard he reverts to human.

Breaks cables tying her hands with “relative ease.”

Smacks down extremely strong guy.

Shirlee, who went through the same treatment but not as effectively, lifts a guy and takes down some others with him.

The Cat's Durability

Takes a charge from Man-bull, who can overturn cars with the same attack.

When Man-killer punches her mid-flip, she takes it without a "wince of pain" and lands gracefully.

Man-killer's strength: punches through wall, breaks chunks off wall when she hits a guy into it. Makes Spidey get knocked back and cry out “woof!”

The Cat's Agility/Dodging/Speed

Spidey says she “almost” caught him. She punches Spidey: he gets dizzy, says “that lady really packs a whallop.”

Dodges bullets. Again. Again.

As the Cat, the narration says two characteristics that were heightened were “lightning reflexes and decisive action.”

The Cat's Skills

She simultaneously kicks two different guys and claws the rope off another.

Uses nerve strike.

Nerve pinch and two neck chops.

Uses a hand-lock and flip on Man-bull.

Throws huge guy with her legs, killing him.

Takes down a big guy with a knee strike.

The Cat's Gear

Basic rundown.

Flips down a wall, making holes in the brick with her claws.

Disarms a cop with her grappling hook.

Uses grappling claw to disarm crook.

Greer grapples a pirate who is running away.

Trips Man-bull with grappling claw.

Claws pierce steel.

Foot claws pierce concrete too.

Grapple-wraps champion of the cat-people.

The Cat's Fights

Fights evenly with the Owl in their first encounter (one, two), then chases him off when they see each other again.

Beats Man-bull.

Quick fight against Spider-man: one, two.

As Tigra

Tigra notes that she already had highly-developed senses, which became more refined as Tigra. She was also stronger as Tigra. Also confirmed here.

Dodges and deflects Hawkeye’s arrows.

Runs across animals’ backs in a way that “makes it look easy” but push Spidey to the limit.

Is “meters away” from Kraven but catches him, prompting him to think “Didn’t think she could move so fast--!!”

Bullet timer: one, two.

She was able to rip apart a robot that had been specifically made so that Wonder Man couldn’t break it.

Rips steel net.

Punches Trapster into machine, breaking it.

Can bend steel bars (and again).

Her claws can tear steel.

Is a skilled fighter and knows nerve-pinches.

Capable of temporarily fighting Werewolf By Night.

She has a long run of fights against Kraven where she typically does fairly well but then he wins through poisons or traps (fights: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5), did OK against Spider-man with some context involved, and fought evenly with Spider-woman, who was holding back on her venom blast, but says about Tigra, "She's an acrobatic wonder! She moves better than I do!"

Takes out multiple goons who have guns trained on her (one, two).

Two Last Little Treats

Patsy in Jessica Jones on Netflix

Since we've spent so much time talking about Patsy's costume, I thought it would be fun to just drop these pics in here. Patsy, on this show, is a whole other ball of wax that maybe I'll deal with somewhere else someday. But I enjoyed how much they focused on her in the show, and really brought Hellcat alive in the last season.

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That Time She Stole the Cosmic Cube from Thanos in His Thanos-Copter

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OK, actually this was in a Spidey Super Stories issue. But it was awesome! I am mostly just putting this here because, Thanos-Copter aside, not everyone seems to know this is a non-canon series. It was a kids' series sparked off the Electric Company show.

Hope you enjoyed learning about the happy-go-lucky Hellcat! Good-bye!

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Devil-slayer Respect Thread

Devil-slayer is a little-known but badass character for whom I have great love. Let’s learn about Eric Simon Payne, the Devil-slayer.

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History and Summary

Devil-slayer is an ex-marine and ex-mob hitman with a long history of PTSD, alcoholism, insanity, and existential despair. He spent time with a demon cult, learning their ways before turning against them. He was a member of the Defenders, and then later was a member of the Avengers Initiative. Payne's long history of mental disabilities, stemming from his original PTSD and the trauma of working with and fighting demons, eventually culminated in a breakdown where he was situated in an asylum for a time. He has recently, and somewhat against his longterm character arc, had some brushes with criminality, working with Wonderman’s Revengers and being sighted in the Pleasant Hill prison.

Devil-slayer is a natural psychic, with telepathic, telekinetic, and “6th sense” (danger sense) powers. He can create limited illusions and has very limited mind control. He also has a Shadow Cloak, which he gained from the cult. The Shadow Cloak contains a portal to another dimension, somewhat similar to Cloak from Cloak and Dagger. He can wrap himself or others in the Cloak and teleport to that dimension, then reappear in another location in our dimension after essentially no time has passed (which is also how Nightcrawler's teleportation works). He can reach into it to grab weapons from other dimensions. He can also control the ends of his cape like tendrils, allowing him to grab people with them.

Devil-slayer, who is white, was married to a woman named Corey, who is black. This was a highly unusual interracial marriage both in reality and especially in mainstream comics publishing, for the time it was first shown in the 1970s, so the character helped break ground in that area. His marriage was also notable for the realism with which it was written, as it showed them having real strife and marriage problems, based partly on his violent nature, but also on her religious evangelism, which he did not share. They eventually divorced, and later she was killed.

A Word on Scaling and Comparisons

I will be using some other characters to scale Devil-slayer's abilities, especially Valkyrie, and I will also show several other individuals who have used a Shadow Cloak. I will provide all the background information on these folks at the end of this post. The key thing to know about all the other Shadow Cloak wearers is that Devil-slayer is more experienced at using it than any of the others are, so he can do anything they can do. Devil-slayer does not have a huge number of appearances, so showing these subsidiary Shadow Cloak wearers provides useful additional insight into its powers.


Devil-slayer has multiple innate psychic powers. It is not 100% clear whether he always had them, whether he had them as a latent ability which was awakened by the cult, or whether the cult gives these powers to all its members. I tend to believe they were latent abilities awakened by the cult.

Interestingly, whether because of his powers or his expertise in demonology, Devil-slayer was among those considered for Sorcerer Supreme (when Brother Voodoo eventually got it).


His most prominent psychic power is telekinesis. He can use it to lift someone of approximately his own body weight, as he does here with cult leader Vera Gemini.

He has fine-tuned control over small objects as well, as he shows when he jams Deathlok’s gun:

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He can also use it to fly with somewhat limited maneuverability:

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He also uses his telekinesis to control the ends of his cloak like tendrils. He wraps the cape around people and holds them in place or throws them around. There is some ambiguity as to whether he does this entirely with his telekinesis, or whether the power is inherent in the cape.

The Cloak's tendrils are very strong: here he grabs the Hulk, lifts him up, and teleports him away:

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Here he grabs Valkyrie (she has enhanced speed, as seen in Scaling at the bottom, so he is fast with the cape), Vera Gemini, Deathlok (who also has computer-enhanced reflexes), and the Agent of Fortune, who has the same Cloak (again, see Scaling at the bottom), grabs Dr. Strange.

Hellcat grabs several attackers at once and throws them.

Hellcat wraps someone up while simultaneously fighting hand to hand with other opponents.


His telepathy can be used to read surface-level thoughts, and to speak to others telepathically, within about 100’.

He can use it to translate other languages, and helped rid a friend of his heroin addiction.

He can also use it in more abstract ways, as he did to connect Valkyrie’s spirit with her sword Dragonfang, or to help Dr. Strange find something while in another dimension.

Here’s his original handbook’s description of his telepathy.


He can create an illusion to make himself look like someone else. Usually he does this to hide his costume, as he does below and here:

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But he can make himself look like anyone, and can hold it for a long time in front of a lot of people. For instance, when he was stranded in a South American village, he basically made himself look like Rambo for about a week straight.

Presumably he could create other kinds of illusions but he never has.

Mind Control

He has used his powers to make minor mental “suggestions,” as he does here when he makes the bar tender give him a drink:

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This power has not been widely explored and he hasn’t used it in combat.

Sixth Sense

He regularly uses his “sixth sense.” This is a precognitive sense that warns him of danger or evil, and sometimes gives him an intuitive pull towards a place. It is nowhere near as developed as Spider-man’s spider-sense, and does not warn him of specific blows in the midst of combat. It’s more something that would warn him that combat is about to take place.

Here it warns him of an imminent attack of demons that are about to come out of his refrigerator, even while he’s drunk and fairly insane.

Here it warns him of his upcoming fight with Deathlok.

While fighting Valkyrie and the Hulk, he twice notes that he is surprised his sixth sense didn’t warn him about them—which is of course because it was a mix-up and they are not evil. But this supports the fact that his sixth sense would normally notify him of opponents’ presence.

Here he senses an upcoming Skrull attack all day.

Here he senses evil and death while in the jungle, and soon finds it in a village.

Here he senses evil, warning of demon magic in the Everglades.

His sixth sense draws him to graveyard where the Defenders’ enemy Null resides. This shows it has a locational sense--a general idea of where the danger comes from, which he can track.

In this same way, Clea uses her magic to draw on Devil-slayer's sixth sense when they are trying to find Gargoyle., showing again that there is a locational aspect to it.

So, his Sixth Sense may warn him of an attack well ahead of time, and then also immediately beforehand, and it may also be used to find the source of danger.

Shadow Cloak

Devil-slayer's main abilities come from his Shadow Cloak, which he originally got from the demon cult he worked for. He lost his Shadow Cloak multiple times but either got it back or got a new one. Multiple Shadow Cloaks exist. Another assassin for the cult (The Agent of Fortune, see below) also had one, which Patsy Walker took from him. She eventually wrapped it up in itself so it disappeared.

I will show multiple people using Shadow Cloaks in this section. See Scaling/Comparisons for details on those people. All the Cloaks have the same abilities.

The Shadow Cloak is basically a portal to another dimension. It allows you to do two main things. If you reach into it, you can pull out any weapon you want. And if you wrap it around you, you travel to the other dimension, and then reappear in ours, in essence teleporting.


He can teleport pretty swiftly at short and long range by enveloping himself in his Cloak.

He not only uses it for transportation, but also tactically, during battle, and is able to do so quite quickly. Tactically, he uses it for optimal battlefield positioning, for BFR, and for evasion.

Here he swiftly teleports away as the Hulk rushes at him:

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He teleports out of the hands of some guys:

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Here a lizard creature pretending to be Devil-slayer tactically uses his Cloak for a quick “teleport-in and stab immediately” maneuver.

The Agent of Fortune avoids the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak, renowned for their speed, by using the Cloak.

Here another guy, called Slayer, uses Devil-slayer’s Cloak to swiftly teleport out of danger in the midst of falling during a battle.

He can also use it to tactically BFR someone. Here, the Hulk leaps at him and instead falls into the Cloak, where he is teleported back to Earth.

We also saw him BFR Hulk above.

Here are some other examples of what it looks like inside the Cloak's dimension: one, two, three.

The Cloak is capable of teleporting not only from one place on Earth to another, but also from Earth to another dimension; here they teleport to hell.

The Cloaks are also capable of penetrating mystic defenses. Here, the Agent of Fortune teleports directly inside Dr. Strange's well-protected Sanctum Sanctorum.

There do not seem to be any major limitations on how far Devil-slayer can teleport. He did become exhausted when he teleported a very large number of heroes in his Cloak multiple times in quick succession. However, he has otherwise never shown strain at teleporting.


Devil-slayer can grab all kinds of weapons out of his cape’s pocket dimensions in a way that has never been well explained. They can be literally almost any kind of weapon: melee weapons and guns; normal weapons and magic items; medieval and contemporary and future weapons. Seemingly they come from other places in the real world, not just in the Cloak itself, but this is not clear. It does not take a lot of skill to grab the weapon you want; Hellcat was able to pull weapons out without much training. The following is a list of known examples:

Devil-slayer often pulls out all kinds of classic melee weapons, for instance a morningstar.

Devil-slayer pulls out Dragonfang, Valkyrie’s fabled blade.

Devil-slayer pulls out an “anti-matter mace,” whatever that is.

Devil-slayer (in a variant costume) has some kind of laser-blasting spear.

Devil-slayer pulls out a normal pistol.

Devil-slayer pulls out wrist-rockets and a targeting helmet.

Devil-slayer can get weapons in huge numbers. Here he pulls out an entire arsenal of military weapons for a whole village to use.

Hellcat pulls out a dagger, also helpfully explaining how it works.

Hellcat pulls a sword out of the Cloak.

The portal can actually get pretty much anything, not just weapons. Here, learning how it works, Hellcat grabs a monster from another dimension.

Slayer pulls out a laser pistol.

Slayer pulls out a crossbow with some kind of gas bolts.

Slayer pulls out a shrinking bola.

Here he tells 3-D Man to pull something out in the middle of a fight; he grabs some kind of energy swords that he uses to kill a Skrull, again showing how easy it is to get a weapon you want from the portal.

Most uniquely, when the writers were clearly thinking about rebranding him as a character, he pulled a magic staff out of his Cloak, then lost the Cloak. (He later lost the staff and regained his Cloak). This staff allowed him to create a forcefield that protected him from a large explosion. He was also able to draw psychic energy from it to enhance his other powers.


Devil-slayer is officially a normal human in terms of physical stats, but in practice, like many supposedly normal humans in comics, his capabilities are beyond actual normal humans, especially his strength and durability.

Skill and Speed

Devil-slayer was a marine and a professional mob hit-man, so he has all the standard fighting and weapons skills one would expect from those careers.

Devil-slayer is particularly handy with weapons, and often fights two handed or with his off-hand:

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Here he displays the skill and speed necessary to deflect a magic demon blast with his sword:

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Valkyrie, considered one of the most skilled fighters in Asgard, says his skill almost matches hers. The narration backs up her reputation by saying that she is a grand master of fighting:

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Valkyrie is superhumanly strong, so a normal human like Devil-slayer would require great skill to fight in such a way that his blows were not constantly dominated by her strength. She also exhibited superhuman speed a lot in this era. See Scaling below.


Although Devil-slayer is physically a normal human, he has shown surprisingly good durability. On multiple occasions, he has been hit by a traumatically damaging blow, only to recover very quickly afterward.

Here the Hulk throws him through a wall. He is stunned, but Hulk wakes him up and he fully recovers immediately after, to the extent that he is then able to defeat Hulk by grabbing him and BFRing him.

Here a super-strong Skrull (during Secret Invasion) punches him in the face. He is knocked out but recovers “soon” after, as the narrative bubble says.

Here a demon from the Six-fingered Hand (relatively powerful demons) blasts him, and he recovers very quickly after.

Here he is just temporarily knocked down by a mystic blast from sorcerer Ian Fate, who is a good enough sorcerer that he can control demons, travel interdimensionally, and create illusions.

Here he takes a kick and a punch from Deathlok, who depending on the Handbook you read is a ½ ton to 2 tonner in his robot arm (he also has a robot leg, for the kick):

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If he gets stunned, he may have the presence of mind to teleport away for a few seconds while he clears his head, then come back, as he does in this scene with Deathlok after he takes a third hit.



Devil-slayer doesn't have a huge number of high-profile one-on-one fights. Many of his fights are against hordes of demons. But he does have a few quality fights against Deathlok, Valkyrie, and Hulk.

Devil-slayer’s first fight is one of his best, against the original Deathlok. It should be noted that Deathlok back them was around a 1-tonner, nowhere near a contemporary ~100-tonner Deathlok. Still, Deathlok was a formidable foe with tech, strength, durability, speed, a computer processor brain, and skill. Devil-slayer telekinetically jams his gun, impressively grapples with him, takes some punches and kicks, notes Deathlok’s strength and speed, grabs him with his cape, gets hit again and tactically BFRs himself, then brings Deathlok to his dimension and hits him with an anti-matter mace, whereupon Deathlok sues for peace. (His internal computer thought a second hit from the mace would be fatal, showing its power.)

Devil-slayer also fought Valkyrie and Hulk. He telekinetically grabs his original target, Vera Gemini, then clashes several times with Valkyrie (whose skill is noted in the narration, as pointed out above) before she breaks his weapon. He is tossed by the Hulk, and eventually grabs the Hulk and BFRs him and himself. This shows his skill at arms and his variety of powers.

Much later, a pretty insane version of Devil-slayer temporarily rips apart the Man-thing. Note that, famously, “whatever knows fear burns at the Man-thing’s touch!” but Devil-slayer has no fear and is unaffected. Man-thing doesn’t fight back, so this is mostly about damage output.

Most of his other fights are against various demons. For example:

Here he fights a horde of demons ruled by a sorcerer named Ian Fate (see especially page 3, where he takes out 4 demons in one swipe of his morning-star, onwards) to save what Devil-slayer thinks is his wife Cory, with help from Beast, Wonder Man, and Dr. Strange.

Here he fights a bunch of demons across multiple dimensions, while drugged so he can’t use any of his psychic powers, ultimately killing a pretty major demon, Balthazar (and then reuniting Valkyrie with her sword).

Here he fights a giant bunch of small demons that come out of his refrigerator where he is hiding his Cloak, while he is both drunk and insane.

Here he fights a demon across various dimensions, using his Cloak.

He and the Defenders fought a group of demons disguised as angels.

And sometimes he fights military targets:

Here he shoots up a small militia.

Here he shoots down 3 helicopters using gear he pulled from his cape.

All together, these fights show a clear competence with martial combat, often against a large number of creatures that presumably have higher stats than him, as well as with the highly-skilled Valkyrie and the trained future-apocalypse-soldier Deathlok

I will also note that Slayer, another character who temporarily had Eric's Cloak, was able to defeat the skilled and Super-Soldier-Serum-enhanced Nomad twice in a row, and knocked out a slightly-serum-nerfed but still fully-skilled Captain America. And unlike Eric, Slayer was a completely un-skilled fighter. More on Slayer and all the details of his fights under Scaling, but it is an example of how effective the Cloak can be.


As noted above, I collected all the people I am scaling him with, and the other people who have worn a Shadow Cloak, here at the end in one place, so as to not clutter up his feats/capabilities.

They are: Valkyrie, who he fought with one-on-one for an extended time; Hulk; who he fought with and ultimately beat through BFR (twice); and Shadow Cloak wearers Agent of Fortune, Slayer, Hellcat, and a Lizard Man. In terms of the Shadow Cloak wearers, in each case, they're someone with less experience than Devil-slayer using his Cloak, or the same kind of Cloak.


Val’s reputation as an excellent fighter is well-earned, and not just statements.

Here she defeats Lady Deathstrike, after Deathstrike takes her by surprise. Deathstrike is a highly-skilled martial artist and long-time Wolverine nemesis.

Here she defeats Sif when they were younger, who is probably the next-best warrior in Asgard in terms of pure skill.

And here, just to show a completely different kind of fight, Val beats a giant snow worm monster, showing off various combat abilities.

Technical point: in the era that she fought Devil-slayer, Valkyrie’s spirit inhabited the human body of Barbara Norriss, and did not have the same level of strength as she does today. However she could still lift and throw tanks.

Valkyrie was also known at that time in particular for her bullet-blocking speed feats, so keeping up with her is impressive. Here Val shows her speed by spinning her sword fast enough to block fire, and to block bullets from single-shot and machine guns on multiple occasions:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

She continues to be able to intercept bullets in the modern era.


The Hulk is also much faster than many people give him credit for. When Devil-slayer is able to grab Hulk, or teleport out of the way when Hulk is trying to get him, or get Hulk in the Cloak when Hulk is coming at him, that’s good reaction time on Eric’s part. Here are just a few of classic Hulk’s speed feats (from the same era as the Devil-slayer fight):

Hulk moves with "unbelievable speed for one so huge."

Like a living tornado, the Hulk spins himself around, causing Mr. Fantastic to unwind his body before the irresistable power of the incredible creature !

Jack of Hearts : It's impossible ! Nothing alive can move that fast !! (Jack can fly at interstellar speeds)

And multiple examples of catching or dodging rockets/bullets: one, two, three, four, five, six. All images from this thread with many, many other examples.

Agent of Fortune

The Agent of Fortune belongs to the demonic cult that Devil-slayer was temporarily a part of, and which gave Devil-slayer his Shadow Cloak. This cult is super-hierarchical. Every job category can only be achieved by beating someone at the level above. This particular guy is at the “Agent of Fortune” rank, which is below Devil-slayer’s rank, “Reaper of Souls.” This Agent wants to beat Devil-slayer so he can become a Reaper. But he can't. So again, anything the Agent can do, Devil-slayer can objectively do better, given the Cult’s very pragmatic ranking system.

The Agent of Fortune used the Cloak to dodge the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak. The Crimson Bands are very fast. As it says here, “no possible speed of flight” could avoid them. Here we see that Silver Surfer could be caught by the Bands (even if he can break out after), proving that the Bands can catch even those with very high speeds. Now, I am by no means saying that Devil-slayer is faster than the Silver Surfer in travel or reaction time. But clearly, dodging the Crimson Bands is a great example of how fast the Cloak's teleportation can work.


Patsy Walker took the Agent of Fortune's Cloak and used it for a while. Ultimately she got rid of it. She used it capably as a source of weapons on a couple occasions, but mostly used it for its tendrils capacity.

This seems to lend credence to the idea that the tendril usage of the Cloak is inherent in the Cloak itself, and doesn't come from Devil-slayer's telekinesis, but other times he makes statements to the contrary.

Also, unlike Slayer (below), Patsy had extensive psychic powers in this era, due to her training by Moondragon on Titan. She was capable, for instance, of unleashing a psionic blast that knocked out all kinds of villains and heroes at once, or knocked back Dr. Strange, and also exhibited telekinesis on her own. She eventually lost those powers. Nowadays, she has a psychic magic/danger sense. This innate psychic potential, however, is certainly why she is able to use the Cloak at all, and may be how she used the tendril technique.


Slayer is Dave Cox, a friend of Captain America’s. He was a pacifist Viet Nam vet, and is not a particularly skilled fighter. Red Skull and Sin got ahold of him and mind-warped him to turn him temporarily evil. They gave him Devil-slayer’s cape while Devil-slayer was in jail. The Cloak can normally only be used by someone with magic or psychic powers, but they modified it with tech to be usable by anyone. (That modified version of the Cloak was later destroyed.)

Cox attacked Captain America and Nomad using the Cloak. This Nomad was the Bucky from the 1950s, and has the Super Soldier Serum himself.

Slayer ambushes Nomad and beats him (off panel), then all three of them fight, and Slayer knocks out Captain America—certainly a rare feat. Then Nomad fights him again immediately after, and Slayer almost kills him before stopping himself by remembering who he really is.

There is context: we later find out that Nomad had been hypnotized into poisoning Cap, thus diluting Cap’s Super Soldier Serum. This left Cap, as he put it later on, feeling like his reflexes were much worse.

To sum up: a guy with no combat skills and without Devil-slayer's psychic powers was able to use Devil-slayer’s gear to very quickly knock out the Super Soldier Serum-ed Nomad, and then a partially-nerfed Captain America, and then beat Nomad again. Even with Cap’s serum partially negated, Cap’s tactical mind and skills were still fine, and the Serum was not totally negated (he doesn't even realize it is weakened until later).

Clearly, Devil-slayer, who is much more skilled, has more powers, and is more experienced with the Cloak, could have done even better in this fight.

Lizard Guy

The lizard man is from a race of mystic ancient lizard people who tried to take over the earth. He and his people defeated the Defenders. He took Devil-slayer's Cloak, and used magic to make himself look like Devil-slayer. Then he tried to trick Spider-man into helping his people. Spider-man eventually figured it out and the Defenders helped beat the lizard people. Since the lizard guy had almost no experience with the Cloak, Devil-slayer should be able to do anything the lizard guy could do with it.


Devil-slayer is a skilled fighter with psychic powers, including telepathy, illusions, mind-control, a sixth sense, and telekinesis. He has a Shadow Cloak which allows him to teleport himself and to BFR others, which enables him to pull out any kind of weapon from an anti-matter mace to a magic staff to a wrist-launching missile system, and which he can use to ensnare others with its tendril-like tips. Although a human, he has shown peak human (at least) strength and superhuman durability. He has fought Valkyrie, Deathlok, and a lesser version of himself was able to successfully fight both Nomad and Captain America.

Respect Devil-slayer!

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12 Charts Showing Characters' Complete Set of Appearances

What is this?

I'm an artist, and I like making charts. I am also very interested in comics' character continuity.

I made twelve charts that visually chart every appearance of twelve sporadically-appearing comics characters. The idea was to see exactly what kind of patterns might exist in a character's pendulum of popularity. Do characters appear fairly continuously? Do they have big periods of popularity and big periods of nothing? Are the ups and downs more gradual? Does it vary by character? Can we link the events in a character's life--like them being killed and resurrected--with the ups and downs of their appearances? Can we link outside dynamics in publishing and other media to the ups and downs of their appearances?

I've shown these to other folks, and they liked them, but I figured Comic Vine is the place that would really enjoy the details of what's going on in these charts. And, of course, Comic Vine is the source of the information as well, since I got the appearance data from the wiki.

A word on process:

All dates are cover dates, not in-store dates. The appearances listed in these charts are accurate as of October 29, 2019. That happens to be the date where cover dates reached the end of the year (2019). Characters will obviously continue to have more appearances after this, and wiki-writers may find other old appearances that didn't make it onto the wiki by the time I created the charts. I defined "appearances," for the sake of these charts, as actual new stories or other new content. No TPBs, no handbooks, no other forms of reprints, nothing that was purely promotional. Thus, the number of appearances in the charts listed will differ from the number of appearances listed on the wiki. I got this information by combing through the wiki "by hand," writing down every comic appearance, and the month and year it appeared, and putting it in the chart; this is not the result of an algorithm scraping the data. I also designed the chart "by hand," meaning I didn't just type the data into a spreadsheet and it just built the chart for me; I made it block by block in Illustrator.

The charts have a black square for every single issue the characters were in. But the comics series listed in red under the charts are NOT every volume they were in. They're a subjectively-selected set of volumes that give you a good sense of what they were up to at that point. Generally speaking, the volumes listed in red are every series the character had 3 or more appearances in, and/or they were a recurring character/main team member/it was a solo series named after them. I do have the complete list of every issue for each character if anyone wants it.

See the charts for more detailed info on how to read them.

They were inspired by my Molecule Man charts (one, two, three), which first appeared here.

Why these characters?

I chose these specific characters because they had about a thousand appearances or less, to make it easier to do; because my impression before making the charts was that they appeared sporadically in comics and thus their appearances would make an interesting pattern; and because I wanted a diverse group in terms of gender and race, to see if that would make any difference.

They're all Marvel characters except Kite Man because Marvel is what I'm most intimately familiar with; but Tom King's use of Kite Man is one of the things that inspired me to do this project.

What can you get out of this?

I hope you all, as comics experts, have fun digging through the data and guessing at what made characters go up and down in their popularity. Just for instance, you can see the effect when Elektra died and (while being resurrected fairly immediately) went into seclusion when Frank Miller originally stopped writing her; when interest in Julie Power started up again after years of minimal appearances, due to the simultaneous explosion of the all-ages Power Pack books and her adult appearances in 616 in Runaways; or the way Groot's appearances exploded when the Guardians movies came out. Or, you can be curious about why, say, Misty Knight and Mantis didn't have big comics resurgences when they appeared in movies and TV.

Enjoy! Here are the charts, in order of the characters' first appearances. They're downloadable PDFs:

Patsy Walker (Hellcat)

Kite Man


Misty Knight



Julie Power


Night Thrasher

Squirrel Girl

Miguel O'Hara

Victor Mancha

Collection of all of them in one chart for comparison's sake.


Owie's Black Widow Respect Thread 2.0!

This is the current, updated, standalone version of a post I originally made on Fetts' "A Black Widow Respect Thread," which I kept adding to for years. However, probably due to the site's recent new redesign, the formatting got all screwed up and I couldn't fix it.

It had gotten somewhat convoluted over the years, and I had wanted to turn the thread into a more text-based-link format anyway, so I moved my post over here and updated it.

This is now where I'll be posting all Black Widow feats. Enjoy!

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Nat's general tier of peers would probably include characters like Moon Knight, Punisher, Crossbones, and Lady Bullseye (most of whom she's beaten), but she occasionally punches up to the Cap and Elektra level, and has fought more or less equally against Bucky multiple times now.

• Vs Captain America

Takes out Captain America with a Widow's Bite to the head. This is a heavy-context fight, with Captain American on drugs that increase his rage, so he's essentially in a bloodlusted state where he's thinking less strategically, but is more aggressive and morals off. This same Cap beats the crap out of Daredevil (who in more context is somewhat off his game) to the degree that Daredevil is lying on the ground and too weak to stop Crossbones from looking under his mask. Anyway as you can see, Diamondback and Black Widow are both fighting him with no major damage to anyone until Natasha blasts him full in the face to KO him.

• Vs Elektra

Fights Elektra after Nat had major surgery. Dodges Elektra’s strike after Elektra has shown her speed by cutting a bullet. Kicks Elektra and strikes her in the head with the pistol. Ends with weapons at each other’s heads. After Elektra leaves we see how hurt Natasha still is from the surgery.

• Vs Punisher

Fights Punisher, more or less to a stalemate. Then Punisher runs off.

In a rematch, she comes after him again, this time with the rest of the Avengers. Granted that Frank has taken some punishment himself by this point, but Natasha kicks him before he can draw his gun, then disarms him, smacks him around a bit, and uses her Bite to shoot first when he draws a pistol on her.

Beats "Hydra Punisher" in Secret Empire: dodges his shots, hits him twice and jumps off him, he shoots her, she misses with touch-Bite, he hits her with butt of gun, he kicks and misses, she kicks him, she disarms him, he grabs her by the neck and kicks her, she blocks his knives and kicks him, disarming him again, he grabs her foot and pushes her back, knocking her to the ground. He goes to get his gun and she picks up his knives and disables him by stabbing him in both legs (somehow getting in front of him in the process). In all, she strikes him 5 times, and he hits her 4 times, BEFORE she incaps him.

• Vs Crossbones

Black Widow vs Crossbones. Wins via using her Widow’s Line as a garrote.

• Vs Bucky and/or Hawkeye

Fighting Bucky: granted that he is not fighting to kill and it’s broken off quickly, but she fights well against him, getting in two kicks to one tackle. He says: “What I didn’t know is how much she’s been holding back when we spar, how strong she really is.” “She’s gonna take my head off if I’m not careful.” This makes clear three things: one, when she has sparred with Bucky in the past, she’s so good she felt the need to hold back so as to not hurt him (what other reason would she have for holding back during sparring?). Two, he’s impressed by her strength, making it clear she’s not just normal. Three, even if he’s not fighting with the intent to hurt her right now, she’s good enough that she could kill him anyway—thus it doesn’t matter what his fighting intent is.

Natasha beats on Bucky pretty much at will as Hawkeye watches. There's context here: Nat has been resurrected in a cloned body after Secret Empire, and Bucky and Clint are shocked to see her alive. She is annoyed that they are unknowingly messing up a plan of hers. She attacks Bucky to stop them from interfering, and he fights back defensively. She basically runs all over him: she hits him, he disarms her, then she gets in every hit after that: 3 hits to his face, pulls his hair, grabs him with her legs and kicks him into Clint. Then she takes off. Even with the context, this is all in her favor: she is more serious in her intent, but doesn't want to hurt them; they are stunned and don't want to hurt her, but clearly they don't want to be hurt themselves either, and Bucky is fighting defensively as hard as he can, as shown by the fact that he needs to ask Clint for help: "She's gonna kill me in a second if you don't stop her!" I added the final page for Bucky's line about how she had the drop on them.

Nat and Bucky fight on a boat. Neither of them gets any major hits in on the other. What's notable is that they fight pretty much as equals, and her signature balletic fighting style, where she looks like she's dancing as much as she's fighting.

Nat one-shots Hawkeye with a suckerpunch.

Nat beats Hawkeye, although this was part of a plan and was staged to some degree. (Although since she let him actually shoot her in the side with an arrow right after this, they may also have been fighting to the best of their abilities to sell the fight's reality.)

• Daredevil and Black Widow vs Kraven:

First Natasha and Matt fight fairly well against him; Kraven notes his superhuman speed and strength. However, Kraven tags her with a poison dart and then he knocks out Daredevil physically.

In the continuation, Kraven is about to throw Daredevil off a cliff. Black Widow is still affected by the poison, as noted in the captions. She jumps at Kraven, who throws Matt off the cliff. A bunch of cops attack, and distract Kraven while Natasha comes from behind and one-shots him with a kick, knocking him out. Even as she does this, she notes that she is still “weak as a kitten” from the poison. Kraven is pretty durable, even in this era, and hadn’t taken too much damage in the first part of the fight, so taking him down with one kick, even by surprise, is pretty impressive.

• Vs. Lady Bullseye. Overall, they basically tie:

In the first fight, Lady Bullseye gets in the majority of the hits and is about to stab Natasha when the fight is interrupted.

In the second fight, Black Widow jumps into a train with some kind of protective energy net and gets Lady Bullseye on the ground, more or less at her mercy, when the train goes into another dimension.

In that dimension, after an unknown amount of time (maybe immediately, maybe much later), Natasha has Lady Bullseye at her mercy at sword point before being interrupted by a monster.

• Vs. Mockingbird

Natasha is attacked by an out-of-control Mockingbird and defeats her pretty easily, kissing her with an antidote to the nanites that made her go crazy.

• Vs. Spider-man

The first time they meet. This fight is full of context; Spider-man was feeling beaten up and tired, and almost like he was losing his powers. Even with that, she gets in some decent shots, but runs off. This is honestly not her best showing but I figured it was worth seeing.

One-shots Spidey after putting him through some tests: Recently, an offshoot of SHIELD hires her to test Spider-man's Spider-sense for what she thinks are good reasons. After running him through a gauntlet of attacks, all of which he dodges (not shown), she blinds him with a light, then attacks him in hand-to-hand. He dodges 3 times, saying his spider-sense can compensate, but she hits him on the fourth try, hard enough to take him down so he can't fight back. This is the first time he's hit the whole time, so it's impressive that she one-shots him, considering his durability.

• Vs Silver Samurai

Black Widow and Spider-Man vs Silver Samurai. First, Samurai vs Spidey. Then Black Widow joins in to help. Note Samurai's clear strength and speed in beating Spider-Man, and his claim to beating Daredevil. Since her Bite is not enough to penetrate his armor, Natasha spends what must be about a quarter of an hour dodging Samurai's katana while Spider-Man is wedging up the building--very impressive dodging.

• Vs Imus Champion

Fights Imus Champion. His strength here is unclear; in the past he had an exoskeleton and could lift planes and fight whole teams of Avengers (here's him--using gear--to take out the Avengers; two hightlights include Thor and Power Princess). Now he seems to be strong and fast but not as much, with no exoskeleton. Dodges, kicks in groin, kicks in head, uses Widow’s Line to garrote. He punches back at her, she shoots at him in h head, she dodges multiple times before being grabbed. Takes out his eyes with her thumbs, slashes his gut, kicks in face, has him at gunpoint. Then chops throat, and basically curb stomps him. TD:LR--she takes out a weakened version of a team-buster.

• Vs Jean Grey, Psylocke, and Viper

Smacks down Jean Grey, Psylocke, and Viper at once.

• Vs Weeping Lion

Black Widow vs the Weeping Lion. The Lion was presented as a pretty tough guy, although more through reputation than feats. Here she beats him fairly easily. In particular note the use of a touch-based Widow’s Bite (clearly influenced by the movies) and again, incap via Widow’s Line. She also gets up with no problem after being smashed against a wall hard enough for it to crack.

• Vs Iron Scorpion

She attacks Iron Scorpion (this is interspersed with flashbacks about sniping a guy way earlier), breaks his leg, throws him into an oncoming truck. Iron Scorpion seems to be enhanced—he easily cuts through pistols (twice), a thick log, and other hard objects with his sword, and has uncanny accuracy as well, throwing a dart into her pistol barrel earlier: One, Two

• Vs Recluse

Natasha and Bucky fight Recluse, who was trained in an updated Red Room. Recluse is tough enough to have captured Bucky in the first place, and then to fight both Nat and Bucky to a draw. Some nice acrobatics and unusual weapons use from Nat, also noted under Bite below.

Natasha has a rematch against Recluse, who notes again that it took her and Bucky to fight her to a draw before. This time, Black Widow beats her. (She comes back from the waterfall later, but Nat clearly has her at a disadvantage here.) Also note impressive strength feat holding back against the waterfall, also noted under Strength below.

• Vs Snapdragon

Sometimes I see assertions that Snapdragon could beat Black Widow, or beat her a majority of times. Looking at their full set of fights makes it clear that in a straight fight, Black Widow wins.

First fight: Widow is ambushed in the dark by Snapdragon when Natasha’s Bite isn’t working. Snapdragon, who has IR goggles, only beats Natasha because Natasha can’t see to fight back.

Second “Fight”: Black Widow kicks a guy while tied, but is subdued by Snapdragon with a pole. Not exactly a real fight.

Third fight: Black Widow is disarmed by surprise, while Snapdragon has multiple weapons. Natasha dodges and strikes, but is hit back. Then Natasha gets in four unanswered strikes, ultimately knocking Snapdragon through a hole in the walkway for a conclusive win in their only straight fight.

• Vs Alexi/Red Guardian/Ronin

She beats Alexi, the former Red Guardian, now Ronin.

• Vs Enhanced-speed assassin

Fights an assassin with enhanced speed and another guy. Quickly takes guy out with thrown pipe, is first beaten down by speedster. Then knocks her out.

• Vs. a Crocodile

Nat is dragged under water for a significant amount of time, and kills the croc by hand. Also a nice feat of strength when she throws it in front of Danvers and Strange.

• Vs. at least 15 Guards

This sounds like just a fodder fight, but it is intense. She starts off with 2 swords and was just poisoned and tortured; they have guns. She takes them all out; the fight is notable for its brutality and targeted, skilled strikes.

• Vs Red Room Girls

Fights off six highly trained Red Room girls. Looking at the panels, she seems to defeat them without ever getting hit. However, she must have been hit to be hazy at the end. Various weapon uses also seen below.

• Vs. Group of "World's Deadliest Assassins"

Takes on a whole group of powered assassins while tied up. Starting off tied up, she kicks one lady, then another. Kicks a pot at guy to KO him, kicks another guy (basically one-shorting four people in a row), then has a longer fight with a sumo guy. Does more tied-up fighting, dodges a bullet so it hits the sumo guy, dodges even more while rolling on the ground toward the shooter and takes him out. Is freed by Iron Maiden, whose armor tanks her blast and almost beats her before being stopped by James Woo from SHIELD (and later Agents of Atlas). All together, even given that these gimmicky assassins are mostly featless, an impressive set of moves for someone tied up almost the whole time.

• Vs Drug-enhanced General

Defeats general who is drugged into enhanced strength and rage.

• Vs Hand

Way back in the day when the Hand was just being introduced, she fights well against several of them, dodging throwing stars and swords, and getting in 5 unanswered strikes before being caught by poisoned caltrops.


Nat's fighting style is naturally very gymnastic. She does all kinds of flips and jumps as an innate part of her fighting that simultaneously works both offense and defense, in an extremely balletic manner that combines her H2H and weapons, often gymnastically hitting multiple targets at once.

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Techniques, often including neck strikes and multiple simultaneous targets:

• In a fairly common one-shot move for her, she chops two guys in the neck at once. A very effective move.

• While literally disintegrating due to poison, she neck strikes a guy. (Again, a bit of a signature move for her.)

• Throat-strikes one guy while taking out two others with one kick.

• Chops a guy's neck while teleporting.

• Neck chops a guy so devastatingly, her hand cuts open his throat (see the blood spatter).

• In a slight variation, but still showing her tendency to strike vulnerable areas, she hits another guy on the back of the neck.

• And does another of her "hit multiple people at once" attacks, following it up with a crazy acrobatic break-dance spin-kick.

• Does a double-neck chop with a kick, taking out 3 people at once.

Kicks one guy while cutting another’s hand off.

• Viciously takes out some street fighters: breaks an arm, jumps out of the way of a blade so a bad guy gets stabbed instead; slices a guy's throat.

• Similarly takes out four street toughs by kicking through a knee, cutting off a leg, and impaling, among other specific targeted strikes.

• Punches through a guy's elbow.

• See fight with Imus, but here are selections with pretty harsh eye gouging and head stomping.

• Takes one guy’s eyes out while shooting another with Bite.

• Viciously kills a guy with a knife when she was a child assassin-in-training.

• While in the process of killing a bunch of mercs, she uses a nice, graceful move to kill one: swinging her body up and around him while holding on to his head, thus breaking his neck in the process.

• She repeats this move later in the issue, where she jumps up and swings her body around a guy, breaking his neck as she swings around.

• After throwing a chair at Punisher and punching him in the face, she does a kick-back-flip off him.

• Blocks a point-blank shot.

• Takes out two people at once while handcuffed, and disrupts point blank gunfire.

• Takes out a bunch of guards, including throwing one over her back for a pretty good strength feat. She shoots a gun out of guy’s hand, uses a flash bomb, and shoots guy’s hand.

• She and Sharon Carter kick each other’s ropes off, which is presented as effortless and looks silly, but honestly would be really difficult to do.

• Knocks guy out by kicking handcuffs at his head, throat strikes two others (this is immediately after she had major surgery):

• Has a friendly sparring match with Wolverine when she is a teen.

Examples of Acrobatic and Fast Fighting

• Does an acrobatic double-kick on Daredevil.

• Multiple balletic kicks/flips, two against Bucky (one, two) and one against a random guard, and one that's a two-target upside-down double-split kick. You get the sense that she's fairly coordinated :)

• A nice jump-kick to Bucky's head.

• In an older issue, Spidey sneaks up on her, but she is able to react, grab, and throw him without him being to react back, even given his spider-sense. (Compare this example of his speed and reactions in the same issue.):

• Spider-man and Widow are surrounded by armed henchmen. Spidey runs off to defeat the Owl, and is gone only a very short time. Then he runs back, clearly believing there are a dangerously high number of guys to fight, since he says she "has her hands full." However, she has easily beaten them all, saying Spidey took too long coming back. I count at least 12 guys. These guys aren't particularly tough, what's impressive is the speed with which she beats them, and that Spidey considers them to be enough to be a challenge:

Shoots Deadpool, incapacitating him until he's decapitated by another guy. (She's the blonde here.)

• Speed: Throws a knife so quickly it kills a guy before he hits a button. His hand is inches away before she even throws the knife.

Takes out two guys in the time it takes a coffee cup to fall to the ground.


Nat is a very accomplished sniper and all-around highly accurate shot.

• Shoots through a guy at a target while she is stunned.

• Shoots a thin string or rope three times. First, while riding a motorcycle, she shoots two strings that come out of a trick arrow from Hawkeye. Second, she shoots a thin rope that Hawkeye is walking on, from a fair distance. Third, she shoots Hawkeye's bow string, from a decent distance away again. Each is a very small target, under difficult circumstances.

• Daredevil calls Natasha one of the only three people who could have made a difficult shot, the others being Bullseye and Punisher.

• Daredevil knows what he's talking about: she shot him in the chest, almost killing him. Some context: he probably didn't dodge as much as he could have because he didn't think she was going to do it. BUT on the other hand, not only did she shoot him, she purposefully ricocheted the bullet off a rib so it didn't kill him.

• She shoots a hole in a card held by Bullseye, so far away he can't see her; he's obviously impressed with the shot.

• Rogue absorbs her abilities, then makes a 2.8 mile shot.

• While tied up, she uses her legs to grab and manipulate a guy's arm so he first shoots another bad guy in the head, then in a second shot she uses her legs to make him shoot the small rope holding her up, while she's swinging on it. This is a CRAZY shot for her to make, using his arm/gun and only using her legs to target it.

• Shoots two guys while blindfolded and running.

In both these examples (one, two), shoots a gun out of a guy's hand while doing a complicated gymnastic activity (jumping in through a skylight and shooting in midair in one, flipping upside-down while dodging gunshots in the other).

• Snipes a guy.

• Shoots numerous octo-bots at once.

• Shoots while flipping upside-down.

• And again.

• Knows a wide range of weaponry, including a .50 cal machine gun used to take down a helicopter.

• Shoots guy behind her without looking (here she has gone through surgery to look like Yelena Belova).

Accurately shoots a small package of dynamite on a far-away ship. Despite its scope, this gun is not a style that is made for sniping.


In addition to regularly carrying firearms and knives, which she is quite skilled with, Natasha also uses the following weapons:

Widow’s Line

Widow’s Bite

Her Bite is most often described as an electric blast, but note in the various scans the different ways her blast is shown—sometimes with a big energy ray that looks more concussive than like electricity, sometimes more like a bullet or more targeted blast. Note that she uses it up close (melee distance) and from long range. The comics have recently started to copy the way her gauntlets can create a shock by direct contact in the movies as well. They weigh 4 kilos each, or about 9 pounds.

• Blasts two guys right next to her:

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Ranged attacks

• Knocks armored guy out of window, blasts guy in face, blasts two more from a distance at once.

• Takes one guy’s eyes out while shooting another with Bite, then blasts another.

• Blasts dogs.

Destructive Power

• Takes out Captain America with a close-range Widow's Bite to the head

• Bite takes down Wolverine for a page and a half.

• Blasts armored foe and is amazed that she isn’t taken down, as her Bite is "enough to stop ten men."

• Blasts through the helmet of a Federal Dynamo, basically a lower-level Crimson Dynamo.

• She fights Ivan, now in a robot body that is called “indestructible.” ... She defeats him by blowing a giant hole in his chest with her Bite.

• Takes out dude in an exo-suit. How tough is this suit? Tough enough to require four sustained shots from Punisher's van's minigun to take the same amount of damage as in one Widow's Bite.

• Bite described as enough to melt a handgun, then does just that.

• She again destroys a handgun. Spidey notes, "that Widow's Bite of yours is something else!" :)

Short Range

• Multiple point-blank blasts, often to the face: one, two, three, four, five, six and seven, eight. (In one, she notes how she helped write the SHIELD handbook on fighting.) Plus once to Hawkeye; that was part of a plan they made and may have been staged, but it still shows how point-blank attacks are a tactic). The Bite is a good ranged weapon, but is also a bonus to her H2H combat. Note that these blasts are different from her touch-based attach, which is shown farther below.


• In addition to using her Bite at short range, she can also use it by direct contact: one, two, three, four, five, six.


• Here, she uses it sort of like an unconnected taser dart, creating an electric shock, and here, like a classic taser, shooting out a line running electric current along it. It's sort of like a mix of her Line and her Bite.

Gauntlet Spikes

• Her gauntlets now also shoot spikes. See several uses, each with excellent accuracy and clean one-shot headshots: one, two, three, four.

• And also has darts with black widow poison.

Gas—both Widow’s Kiss and Gas Bombs

• Blocks a point-blank shot and knocks him out with the Widow’s Kiss, a 24-hour knock-out gas:

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• Uses both gas and Bite against Black Panther.

• Gas from her gauntlets.

• Has gas bombs that blind you and make you feel drunk (one, two):

• Uses tear gas bombs against Hand.

• Uses smoke bombs.


She has used many kinds of bombs, hidden in her uniform in many locations. Back in the day, she uses a micro-bomb hidden underneath her thumbnail:

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• Belt bombs blow up a train floor.

• This "minor charge" makes a massive explosion.

• She uses some small spherical bombs to blow up the wall of a helicarrier.

• A bomb also makes a massive explosion out on a road.

• Uses a classic explosive grenade, and another grenade.

• An adhesive bomb to shatter glass.

• Flash bomb, and a flash bang.

• Uses a time-delayed belt bomb.

• She also uses a slingshot bomb.


• Exudes some kind of blinding oil from her gloves or gauntlets:

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• Shoots what seems to be a power-disruption dart—in any case it’s some kind of dart that ends up disrupting the power:

• Has IR goggles, and more goggles.

• A glider suit with a parachute:

• Pulls a gas mask up out of her suit's collar.

• Uses her gauntlets to open an electronic lock.

• Uses a tool in her wristlets to start a car.

• Uses a laser-cutter.

• Gauntlet has a flare (also an example of durability, in swimming underwater in arctic temperatures with no problem).

• Gauntlet has a homing signal.

• Here she has claws.

• She wears armored gloves even while in civilian clothes, enabling her to catch a knife.

• Her gauntlets are also able to block a sword-stroke from Mr. X.

• Natasha’s suit has suction cups that allow her to stick to walls. A couple examples of sticking to walls even in her first costume, and her first appearance in her now-standard black catsuit. Also does it recently. A variant explanation: it's "electro-molecular adhesers!"

• But who needs that when you have anti-grav shoes!


Natasha is noted for her graceful agility, and is an extremely effective dodger. Also note some examples under FIGHTING SKILLS where she knocks away guns that are shooting at her from point blank range.


Numerous instances of dodging guns and other attacks, often machine gun fire, often from very close range. Note the grace with which she dodges--it's not hard for her to do this. In a couple examples her hair is blonde (this is when she was disguised as Yelena Belova):

Guns and Arrows

• Dodges gatling-gun machine gun fire, twice.

• While she is mind-controlled, she dodges a bunch of close-range shots from Bucky. As it says, he's not trying to hit her, more herd her in a direction, but his comment about "she's too fast" implies that he probably couldn't hit her regardless. Also note the comment about her grace in dodging. And, she's playing him by actually dodging in the direction she wants to go. Slightly after he throws a knife and she dodges that too.

• Dodges three shots from Punisher.

• Acrobatically dodges multiple machine guns: one, two, three, four, five, six

• Senses an incoming sniper shot from a distance and avoids it.

• Widow and Daredevil gymnastically run through gunfire to take out the shooter.

• Clearly twisting her body out of the specific pathways of multiple, close-knit individual bullets.

• Dodging up-close machine guns.

• Dodges multiple shots from Madame Masque, and also deflects a point-blank shot from her with her gauntlets.

• Dodges multiple point blank shots from two pistols.

• From a point-blank handgun.

• From multiple guns.

Can you say acrobatic? More guns.

Dodges two close-range pistols shots while tied up.

• Dodges Federal Dynamo's multiple close-range rapid-fire blasts.

• Dodges nearby hand gun fire (notable for its gymnastic quality).

Dodges Hawkeye’s net arrow at point blank range (however this was part of a plan with Hawkeye and may have been staged)

Nine special agents with automatic weapons attack. She dodges, then dodges again, then rushes them, taking them all out. She is only hit once.

Energy Blasts

• She fights Ivan. She dodges his point-blank gatling-style laser blasts.

• Acrobatic dodge of Red Guardian's energy blast.

• And again.

• Gymnastically dodges multiple energy blasts from a robot.

Dodges energy beams from Carol Danvers, among others, while simultaneously shooting two targets.

H2H Attacks

• Acrobatic dodge of a kick.

• Gymnastically dodges a giant robot arm.

• Closes in to Federal Dynamo quickly enough to knock his blasting arm aside.

• While fighting an alternate-dimension counterpart of herself, she dodges Cap's thrown shield three times, and Cap comments, "Damn, she's fast."

Some Pure Agility

• Natasha often randomly throws in acrobatic flips and leaps that are beyond what is necessary to get from one place to another, as seen in the fifth panel here.

• After a helicopter crash, Cap faceplants, but Widow lands on her feet.

• Widow (transformed to look like Belova) jumps up to grab some guns, flips, and shoots two guys while coming down.

• Again as Belova, she is held at point-blank gunpoint, kicks the guns out of their hands, flips, and catches the guns.

• Drives a car on an overpass above the car she is chasing, leaps out of her car, off the bridge, and onto the speeding car below, in a feat of both timing and agility, then manages to stay on the hood of the speeding, swerving car with only her feet—no hands. This is totally beyond human ability.

• Natasha somersaults out a window into the open air.

• She bounds up a wall and lands on a wire.

• She runs along wires with Daredevil, bounds around, and climbs a wall with her suction cups.

• Jumps from a ridiculous height into water tower.

• Casually runs along a wire that is high above the city.

• A crazily high flip while fighting (upper right-hand corner).

• Enormous leap down, while shooting.

• Some more leaps.

• Jumps out of a Helicarrier. This is interesting to compare with Elektra’s jump out of a helicarrier. Before this, she steals some stuff from SHIELD, and fights past a bunch of agents. Then, as shown here, she blows up the wall with some bombs and jumps out with no path for survival. SHIELD agents follow in a flying car and jetpacks. In the air, she maneuvers herself into the car and ejects the drive. Then she ties one of the jetpack guys to the car, which falls. She pretends that she’s scared so one jetpack guy grabs her, then steal his pack. When the agent blows up her pack, she falls safely on a car and drives away on a stolen motorcycle. As the agent says, “she turns a 40,000 foot fall into a ballet.” It is impressive to have made the jump without knowing for sure what would happen, but more so it is the grace with which she did it—doing something with grace like that makes it clear how easy it is for her.


Weirdly I haven't collected more examples of this.

• There are so many examples of infiltration, I'm just showing this one example where she quickly infiltrates the new Red Room.

She is caught in this guy's stream of water, which is his body, and escapes out of it without him noticing.

• Drops a tracer in a guy's pocket and takes out a bag.

• Her white suit is invisible to cameras.

• After Spider-man sneaks up on her in one issue, she later sneaks up on him, and is able to tap him on the shoulder simultaneously with his spider-sense going off, and before he can react (also notable because when he sneaks up on her, she is able to grab and throw him, while when she sneaks up on him, he just flips away instead of being able to counterattack).

• Sneaks up on Conan, then in the second panel (which takes place later), leaves without him realizing it. Conan is known for his enhanced senses/awareness.

Stealthily drops a bug on a guy.

Hides in the backseat of an open convertible for a while without the driver knowing.


As seen below, Natasha has some pretty solid blunt force durability with multiple falls from a great distance, and some excellent pain tolerance. It is almost a trope now for her to let herself get tortured to get some information from the tormentors, then to break out and kill them, as if prolonged torture was nothing.

• See fight with Weeping Lion (smashed against wall, no pain)

• Hit against a wall by Black Dwarf ... who is massively super-strong ... and is up and jumping around on the next page.

• Similarly, here she takes a punch directly in the face by an enhanced golem-like LMD, whose next punch caves in a wall, and she gets up immediately after with no problems:

• Stays awake during major abdominal surgery without anesthesia. She can’t move at all or they’ll nick her organs. This is a crazy display of pain tolerance and body control:

• This is a great scene not only for durability but also fighting style: she lets herself get beat up for a while, then takes out the guards while still tied up.

• She takes a knife in the shoulder to avoid worse injury; she has a bit of a history of doing this—stoically accepting an injury for tactical reasons.

• Intentionally takes a bullet in the shoulder to kick a guy; and then falls many stories to the street and is basically fine.

• Intentionally allows herself to be tortured, then once the plot has advanced as she wishes, she unties herself and leaves.

• Waterboarded, and is fine (also remembers other examples of torture). Beats the guy up right after.

• Is unusually tolerant of poisons.

• During Elektra’s first attempted resurrection, Natasha fights some Hand, taking an arrow in the shoulder without a peep (she does turn out to be pretty injured later, but in the moment, completely ignores it)

• Survives lengthy fall into water.

• Falls an enormous height out of building, bounces off sign and hits car, and is basically fine.

• After asking Hawkeye to shoot her in the side with a 3-bladed broadhead arrow, she is still able to agilely jump off a roof.

The Soviet Super Soldier formula gives her a “ramped up immune and cell repair system.” Her “wounds heal four, maybe five times as fast as a normal human’s would. [She doesn’t] hardly get sick, [she doesn’t] age as fast.” This immune system works so well that it sees a fetus as a disruption and miscarries it.


Natasha took a Soviet version of an Infinity Formula or Super Soldier Serum, which increased her life and durability, but has never, to my knowledge, been stated to enhance her agility or strength. Despite that, she clearly is stronger than a normal--even athletic--human. See Stats, below.

• Stabs a fat guy and lifts him up at the end of a pole and tosses him:

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• Rips off robot’s arm. And in the same situation, also breaks robots a couple more times.

Rips head off giant robot bee.

• Holds on to a staff against a raging waterfall with one arm. (Last few pages in the scan) With this amount of water, the power of the flow would be incredibly strong, it would be very hard to hold on here.

• Pushes a pretty heavy chair back with only her toes—must be very strong toes!

• Grabs a fat guy and throws him out of a car window, mostly with one hand.

• See also Bucky comment about not realizing her strength.

• Knees through a door.

• Holds a guy off a ledge with one arm.

• Chops three thick boards in half.

• Two examples of hanging off the side of a building--once just using her arm to hold on, once while holding her line and wedging herself against the building. This looks easy but would take decent grip and arm strength.

• Picks up a guy on her shoulder and carries him off with no seeming effort.

• Jumps off the side of a boat and grabs onto a port-hole ledge, arresting quite a bit of momentum with just small finger-holds in that move. Then she holds herself up with one arm for a while.

• In this fight with guards she threw a guy over her back, not really seeming to use martial arts/leverage to do it.

One-shot punches Hawkeye for a knockout.

Holds a guy up in the air.

Carries a teenager.


These are only a few representative examples. Black Widow is noted for long-term strategies and cons, and for breaking into challenging locations.

• Outsmarts Tony Stark. Stark is after her for kidnapping the guy who helped him first build the Iron Man suit when she was much younger. She plays on Stark’s weaknesses by using a fake phone call and make up, then KOs him and breaks into his computer system (and steals some of his tech, not shown here).

• Absurd prep—has fake skin on her back to cover a bow and arrow. Fingernail has electric charge (or something) to blow up plastic explosive. Also one-shots a mind-controlled Ivan.

• And she did the same thing earlier--she has a kit for a field disruptor rifle under a false back.

• She passes a lockpick to Daredevil via a kiss...which he then realizes she kept in her stomach.

• The entire plot of one miniseries is that she was willing to have painful plastic surgery done on her to look like Yelena Belova, and then have the surgery reversed after finishing the con. This is, just to point out, crazy! Then she does it again, this time using a drug.

• Works with Punisher to make complicated plan to fake Frank's death, where she shoots him off the side of a building, where he is caught by Ghost Rider.

Vassily, who is connected to the Red Room, is repeatedly referred to as being tough, and in his one feat catches a thrown knife and then two-shots a trained assassin. They fight. He has a pheromone scent that Black Widows can’t fight against. He hits her four times (two was enough to take out the other assassin). But, she calculates that by letting him break her nose and fill her throat with blood, she won’t smell the pheromone. Then she gets up and two-shots him.


Stats: Intelligence 3 (learned), Strength 3 (peak human: lift twice body weight), Speed 2 (normal—“the ability to move over land by running or flight—next level, 3, is up to 700mph), Durability 3 (enhanced), energy projection 3 (short range and duration, single energy type), fighting skills 6 (master of several forms of combat).

Black Widow has kept her youth due to multiple treatments from the Soviet government, which also increased her physical stats, including strength, speed, and durability ("Government treatments slowed her aging, augmented her immune system and enhanced her durability”).

The Red Room physically and mentally conditioned the 28 Black Widows (of which Natasha was only one) in their youth in various ways:

• The Red Room conditioning gives her a “ramped up immune and cell repair system.” Her “wounds heal four, maybe five times as fast as a normal human’s would. [She doesn’t] hardly get sick, [she doesn’t] age as fast.” This immune system works so well that it sees a fetus as a disruption and miscarries it.

They physically conditioned them to react to a pheromonal scent that locks into her biology. She is unable to fight or even disobey someone with it. This is how Nick Fury got her to defect. (However, see her fight with Vassily on how she can overcome it.)

• They also implanted false memories, such as of her training as a ballerina. These memories were unstable, and when asked directly by Red Guardian, she was unable to give a consistent answer. If a Black Widow tries to think directly about the memories, they get physically ill.

Soviet Super-Soldier Serum: The Winter Soldier, who worked for the Soviets at the time, also provided Natasha and her caregiver Ivan with a formula which expanded their life-spans and also healed him enough to recover from a mortal injury. This was in 1956. It is unclear if this serum is in addition to, or the same as, the treatment the other Widow trainees received.

As I mentioned while discussing her resurrection by the Hand many years ago, she could have arguably gotten some of her physical enhancement from that as well.

Age: How old is Natasha? Deadly Origin shows her as an infant in 1928, and says she is 29 in 1957, which would also imply a 1928 birth year. The Avengers Roll Call handbook backs this up and says she was born around 1928. This is also supported by a plethora of stories, such as Uncanny X-men 268, a flashback where Captain America and Wolverine meet Natasha during World War II in 1941, when they were all alive (Natasha would have been, and looked approximately, 13).

However, in The Things They Say About Her (published before Deadly Origin), Yelena Belova says Nat is "nearly 40" (she would actually be 77 at the time TTTSAH was published) and that Yelena herself is "not yet 30." It is unlikely that Yelena would be so unaware of the history of the Black Widow program since she graduated from a later iteration. Perhaps we may take this to mean that Natasha looked like she was almost 40.

However, after the 2015 Secret War in which reality was rebooted, the Mark Waid/Chris Samnee Black Widow volume implies she is actually much younger. Natasha kills the uncle of a boy who later became the Weeping Lion when both she and the boy were children. Since the Weeping Lion seems to be a normal adult age, this is problematic. Further, only "several years ago," according to a caption, she captured Yinsen and brought him into captivity. Yinsen is the man who later helped Tony Stark build his first Iron Man armor when they were both captives. Natasha looks like a young woman in this story, which means that she is actually younger than Tony Stark at the time. The letters page in issue 8 takes on this confusion. It says she is 88 years old (at the time of the volume in 2016, thus a birth year of 1928), but then notes that there are some problems with how her age is portrayed in the story, and that they care more about the story than the math. It suggests a few possible solutions, such as that the Weeping Lion could have also had enhanced age, but basically leaves it open. The letters page to issue 10 follows up on this: a letter writer suggests that it was the reality-altering aspects of the Secret War that changed the timeline, and the editor gave him a No-Prize for the idea, seemingly endorsing the concept. The letters page in issue 11 continues the discussion, implying that it is not clear exactly when in her life she was in the Red Room.


Nat fights and kills pretty viciously under the right circumstances.

• Crushes a guy's head in a car door:

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• Ties some dead guys up to a car to make a point.

• Jams a pool cue in a guy's throat.

• Kicks through a knee, cuts off a leg below the knee:

• While she was working as an assassin for the Soviets, she not only killed a good friend of hers in cold blood because those were her orders, she then proceeded to kill their cat just to tie up loose ends!

• She threatens (and means it) to shoot the Punisher unless he does something for her, and she threatens to kneecap a pretty innocent guy for information.

• Cuts a guy's arms off as revenge for what he did to a girl.

Intentionally has Hawkeye shoot her in the side with a 3-bladed broadhead arrow, clearly causing significant damage, in order to fulfill a plan.

Callous enough to assassinate a guy who did her wrong in cold blood. He's not expecting this at all, or aware of what's going on. She just walks up and drops a grenade in his lap.

Has no compunctions about killing a defenseless, disarmed female agent (the last guy's partner) in cold blood.

• Ruthless: forces a guy to jump off a high tower at gunpoint, breaking many bones, then threatens to let wild dogs eat him (and does actually let them start to visciously chew on his leg).

• She promised two guys that they wouldn’t walk again, so after she beats them and the one guy is just lying on the ground unconscious, she breaks his back with a pressure point (which was completely unnecessary).

• Trains the Champions in “ethical adjustments” which are so hard core she makes them cry just by talking.

• Is interrogated by a man using hallucinogenic drugs. When she used these same drugs on him, he went nearly insane and gave up everything he knew, and kept having flashbacks much later. While it affects her strongly on the inside, she resists it unlike anyone else ("I've never seen resistance like this"), and is in fact able to act completely conscious soon after (and then get in a big fight).


• Good at disguise. Tricks Taskmaster, even though he can read movements, plus, knows that by wearing an eyepatch, no one can recognize her ;)

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• Spits in a guy’s face, manipulating him into reacting in such a way that he drops a needle exactly where she can grab it and unlock the cuffs. Incredible timing, accuracy, and intuition, not to mention needles aren’t great for lock picking.

• Manages to poison Lady Bullseye without her knowing it.

• She was resurrected by the Chaste after being killed by the Hand’s disintegrating poison. Sometimes people resurrected by the Hand in a similar manner have increased physical stats; this, in addition to her Super Soldier Serum, may explain her stats:

• Daredevil can't tell if she's lying here. Her heartbeat is under enough control to keep Daredevil from reading it here. Does it again.

• Perception: Can tell Miles Morales is behind her. Then does it again. His “how do you keep—” comment shows that he was trying to be stealthy.


• Wolverine thinks it’s a joke that he’s supposed to be her protector; obviously he thinks she can take care of herself better than he can take care of her:

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Wolverine is cautious enough about her reactions to stay out of arm’s reach when she wakes up unexpectedly.

• She is described as “running circles around men and women who possess ten times her strength”

• Fighting SHIELD and Nick Fury. She breaks an agent’s neck and disarms him in one move. In fighting Fury, an agent says, “this is the Black Widow we’re talking about. There was never any questions about whether she’d get the upper hand, just how long it’d take her.”

• A Federal Dynamo, basically a low-level Crimson Dynamo, knows she's going to toast him as soon as he runs into her.

• The other Avengers try to interrogate a guy and fail, but she succeeds in minutes.

• This is more her own self-assessment, and certainly imbued with class Stan Lee hyperbole, but she describes herself as having "powers enough to be a challenge to Iron Man."


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Elektra Respect Thread (Blog Back-up)

This thread is a back-up and summary of my main Elektra respect thread. Comic Vine has recently screwed up its spoiler blocks, but they work in blogs, so I'm putting the content here where it can be seen in their correct format.

I am posting the main 616 summary thread here, plus the movie and Netflix summaries in the next posts.

This post gathers all the feats for 616-comics Elektra that are in this thread and organizes them by characteristic (strength, speed, etc.). It also includes many other feats for her that are not in this thread. This list will stay here at post 34 from now on.

The original posts may include more context on the feats and go into them in more depth (for instance, in the instance where she stabs Hulk in the eyes, the original post has a supporting scan that shows that same version of the Hulk was able to withstand Johnny Storm's Nova blast with no problem).

This post is where to find the main feats without context, but organized in a comprehensive, easier-to-use fashion.

Images/scenes will often be listed under more than one category, depending on their content. This is not an attempt to pad the list, but an attempt to be exhaustive about categories.

***Almost all of the scans in this post are mine, but I did include some from the Killer Movies respect thread in order to be more comprehensive, so credit for those scans goes to the creator of that thread***



Disappears in front of Stick’s Ghost

Elektra appears and disappears multiple times while killing soldiers in the desert where there is no cover

Stealth on a jeep (disappears and reappears multiple times in plain sight)

Appearing and disappearing in front of Nick Fury and multiple SHIELD agents

Disappears while fighting Skrulls

Sneaks up on Spider-man 2099, who has enhanced senses.

Drugs Spider-man 2099 and Captain America 2099, despite his senses.

Disappears while directly next to Spider-man 2099 (who has enhanced senses) and Captain American 2099.

Fights Iron Man 2099. She disappears in plain sight over a cliff’s edge, and is only picked up by his electronic detection. Note that this isn’t just normal Iron Man level tech, but future Iron Man tech.

Disappears over the edge of a roof in front of Iron Fist, reappears from the other direction, very similar to the Iron Man 2099 feat.

While Daredevil is fighting some Hand, Elektra kills another Hand in the next room, and he never senses that she's there with either enhanced senses or radar sense

While Daredevil is fighting some Hand, his enhanced senses (he is temporarily without radar sense) have a hard time picking up or identifying Elektra (for instance, he hears a Hand's heartbeat behind him, but then it disappears--he never picks up that Elektra killed that Hand)

Elektra catches a radar-less (but not enhanced-senses-less) Daredevil by surprise and smacks him in the head with a thrown sai

Elektra catches a sick Daredevil by surprise and smacks him in the head with a thrown sai

Hunts down rich dude (continuously avoids detection)

Takes a suitcase a guy is guarding, and then returns it, without him or anyone else noticing

Runs across the snow without leaving a trace (Assassin)

She runs on the snow without a mark at the age of 12, confirming Assassin’s similar scene.

She pranks Garrett on multiple occasions, using mind-clouding psi powers and/or stealth. Here she shot his beer can, stole his pistol out of his shoulder holster, and took a gun out of the floor and made it fall apart when he picked it up without him knowing she was there at all. Here she steals his gun again. Here she plants drugs on him and steals his plane ticket—while he is specifically looking for her. (Assassin)

Disappears directly in front of Daredevil and his enhanced senses.

In a dream sequence by Daredevil--where he would presumably not dream this if it were not true, he says "she never makes any sound at all. Not unless she wants to."

She leaves Daredevil: "Then Elektra's gone, silent as she came. Her ninja ways invisible to even his senses."

She throws a sai as a calling card when she arrives; Daredevil notes that "her heartbeat caught my hypersensitive ear a split second before the sai found its mark."

Disappears in front of a guy at a casino.

Kills a bunch of guards without any of them firing a shot.

Disappears out of an alley when she was just ahead of two guys.

Even standard Hand are great at stealth. Here, two ex-Hand members are amazed that a whole troop of Hand appear as if "they're coming out of thin air."

SPEED (see also under Agility and Deflection)

Fights Taskmaster, parts 1 and 2, at least in part by out-speeding him

One-shots each of the Four Winds (dodges speedy throwing stars)

Elektra stabs snake in the desert while almost dead

Elektra races around killing soldiers from different angles while almost dead, and with great stealth

Hunts down rich dude (speedily invades compound)

Gets from behind couch, throws ashtray to disarm, stops dart with book, takes two robots down, all before they can react.

Fights Iron Man 2099. Dodges a blast while he comments on her speed.

Described as "fantastically quick, and inherently dishonest, feinting and faking."

An ex-SHIELD agent says, "She's fast."

Ninja notes her speed twice

Wolverine, who has enhanced speed, comments, "Man, she's fast."

She runs a fair distance from an ex-SHIELD agent she beat up then climbs a 4-story building in what is clearly a very short time: one, two

Repeatedly strikes feral Wolverine without being hit in return, or leaps past him without being hit: one, two, three, four

Steals Northstar's body from under the noses of Iceman, Polaris, and Dani Moonstar so fast they barely even register it ("What the hell was that?"): one, two, three

Knocks a guy out via nerve strike, and disarms him, in mid-sentence.

Has a psychic conversation with Gorgon "at the speed of thought," before SHIELD agents are able to react: one, two

Catches knife

Catches knife from Skrull

Catches an arrow at 12, semi-confirming a similar scene in Assassin about catching a bird in flight.

Catches Punisher's thrown knife, says she can do this all day

Outruns Punisher to a tree, even though he started out closer

Runs through a group of guys faster than they can finish a sentence

Says she's faster than Cape Crow

Takes the Punisher's gun from him without his noticing until she points it out, while standing several feet away (MAY be a chi feat)

Various examples of Elektra blitzing through guards at high speeds

Defeats several agents before they get off a shot. (Assassin)

She knocks away a gun that was pointed at her head before he can shoot. (Assassin)

She can catch a bird in flight as a child. (Assassin)

Here she swings a sword faster than a camera can record, and kills four SHIELD agents in 2 seconds. (Assassin)

Here she kills six agents in six seconds. (Assassin)

Here she quickly punches a guy’s nose into his head and then breaks another guy’s arm more quickly than Garrett can see—while underwater. (Assassin)

Storms a militia camp. Blitzes two guards right in front of the child leader without him seeing her, then kills three in one run, looking like a blur without them being able to react. Then starts killing and intentionally scaring off the rest of the pretty huge army, being able to kill handfuls at a time without them reacting. By morning they are all dead or run off.

With a bullet wound to her shoulder, she still manages to climb a wall faster than they can keep track of her with a spotlight.

AGILITY (see also Dodging)


DEFLECTION (also often examples of Weapons Control)


Ignores deadly wound from magical ice sword, says she heals quickly

Elektra kills numerous soldiers in the desert while almost dead from exposure, dehydration, snake venom

Wolverine and Elektra fights vs Shikaru the Mute (fights against creature who KOs Wolverine)

Fighting with Drake (fights for 6 hours)

Is punched a long distance by a giant robot and is fine (and able to dodge attacks right after)

When she finds out Lady Bullseye can become incorporeal, she lets her stab her in the abdomen with a giant longsword, moving her body so all the important organs are out of the way. She seems completely fine after this, and even goes on to easily defeat Jack O'Lantern, Tiger Shark, and Whiplash, and then kill the leaders of the Assassins Guild as if she is completely uninjured. I need to emphasize that no matter how you move your organs out of the way, being stabbed completely through your abdomen should be a lethal injury, the fact that not only did she survive this at all, but acted as if she was totally fine, is an amazing feat of durability, not to mention pain tolerance.

An enhanced Bullseye beats her down, to the degree that she can't move, her skull is broken, she has a brain hemorrhage, and is blind in one one, and eventually needs a steel plate in her head. This is the definition of beaten beyond the ability to fight. And then (full fight including getting hurt) she gets up out of pure willpower and beats the crap out of a bunch of Hand, their magical leader, and Bullseye.

Tanks a hit by the clawed and extremely super-strong Bloody Lips (seems to be unaffected by it later)

Is blasted three times by a Skrull with Cyclops powers and while hurt is still able to kill it.

Bulletproof when so desired: She deflects a bullet with the back of her hand—and moves fast enough to intercept it, for that matter, in a clear bullet-timing example. (Assassin)

She manages to hang on to a helicopter while it’s hit by a rocket. Then it’s hit by another direct hit, crashes, and she’s largely fine (I didn’t show the repercussions, but she basically just gets up). (Assassin)

After Perry breaks her leg and partially breaks her spine, she still ends up defeating him (the fingers through the brain scan above). (Assassin)





Vs Daredevil: hits him hard enough to almost take his head off; kicks him hard enough to kill him if she didn’t pull it

Breaks through 7 concrete blocks

Kicks a van door off

Deforms thick steel door, curving it inward

Breaks Hulkbuster armor with her hands

Kicks down a brick wall

Knocks two multi-ton rock monsters off a ledge with one kick.

Punches through a guy and the wall behind him (possibly my favorite of the various times she has punched through people)

Punches through guy and pulls out his heart

From Elektra Lives! (non-canon, but fun for continuing the theme): punches all the way through a ninja's chest

Stabs through two Hand with a blunt pipe

Casually embeds a sword into brick

Rams a blunt pipe all the way through Paladin

Punches through Arcade's escape sphere

Throws some SUPER-SMALL medical parts at Night Nurse's knee hard enough to knock her down (one, two)

Slices through a grenade

Cuts through metal twice

Stabs through the back of a movie seat (including the hilt bars of the sai): one, two

Stabs into Red She-Hulk

Elektra stabs Hulk in the eyes, clearly piercing his eyes with her sai.

She crushes a guy’s skull, or at least his jaw. (Assassin)

Stabs through a guy’s throat and “her fingers cut the floor” while she is in terrible shape. (Assassin)

In the same context, she crushes a skull, likening it to an eggshell, and also crushes a throat. (Assassin)

In the same context, she “shoved her hand through a guard—punched holes in a surgical team—left a doctor with two scalpels in his eyes.” (Assassin)

Breaks through a door. (Assassin)

While being tasered, she is still strong enough to punch through a guy’s body armor—not just his body—and was reaching for his heart. (Assassin)

Her punch is likened to being hit by a Mack truck. (Assassin)

She pulls out a guy’s heart. (Assassin)

Cuts the head and hand off Perry, a nearly indestructible cyborg. (Assassin)

Worms her hand up through the inside of Perry's nearly indestructible head to destroy his brain. (Assassin)

Knocks out Morbius with double hits to the sides of his head with her sai handles. This era of Morbius has a significant healing factor, for instance being stabbed solidly through the torso by Stone, then being fine a few hours later.

Two different versions of a scene where she slices a guard's torso in half with a sai.

She rips some of the armor on this Hand armored suit ("Skriiiiip"), then pierces it and takes it down in one strategic hit. This armor is bulletproof.


Disarms with a sai

Disarms a Hand with a shuriken

Elektra vs Shang-Chi: cuts head off fly

Pins Spider-God by the neck with sai

Throws sai into shuriken hole

Throws sai into cable from a distance

Throws sai into already-aimed pistol.

Throws a sai into a gun barrel (which she threw so hard the gun and hand then go through the guy's body armor and chest)

Throws a sai into one gun barrel while simultaneously disarming the other with a shuriken

Throws a sai into a gun barrel, which explodes, and then shoots the sai back at her where she catches it

Throws shuriken into camera from a distance while running

Throws sword across room to incapacitate robot.

Uses two ashtrays to disarm two guns from one robot (same fight as above).

Angry that she only hit 3 out of 4 small targets.

Hadn't missed a shot in five years.

Stabs the back end of a bullet with a sai to make it shoot at Bullseye

Chokes Paladin by spitting her tooth down his throat

This is an example of accuracy as well as speed: Deflects NUMEROUS continuous machine-gun-style shots from a giant robot.

Cuts a bullet in half that was fired by the highly-accurate Black Widow from point blank range

Able to accurately throw some SUPER-SMALL medical parts at Night Nurse's knee (one, two)

Shoots down a flying capsule with an energy rifle while in a jetpack

Knocks a guy with with a thrown sai that rebounds off a wall

Cuts a guy's arms and legs off so they don't fall off, and he stays in one piece, alive, until he's touched--which would take incredible skill

Cuts the Architect in half without him knowing it

Flips over the running Nina (a ninja) and cuts her handband in half, without cutting her forehead at all--again, incredible weapons control

Kills four Hand hidden in the drapes with one toss of shuriken

Throws a sai into Ben Urich from across the street: one, two

She shoots a guy in the neck with a crossbow from several hundred yards away while she is on a carnival ride rotating one direction and the target is on a ride rotating the other direction. The narrator emphasizes the skill it takes to do this. (Assassin)

While hanging upside down on a moving helicopter, she shoots another helicopter with a rocket launcher. (Assassin)

She shoots an arrow into a gun barrel. (Assassin)

After stealing SHIELD security details, she goes behind the wall where her target is sitting and stabs him through the heart (without any direct physical sensation of where he is). (Assassin)

Throws some shuriken to cut through a guy's flamethrower tubes.

Throws a cloud of shuriken to block a powered ninja's chi.

Throws an ungainly pair of garden shears into a guy's back.


Are booby trapped so they give a paralytic shock to anyone else but her (one, two)

Unlike normal sai, they usually have sharp edges (just a couple examples: they can cut through a grenade or cut a bullet in half [you can see the edge of the blade there], or effortlessly cut this guy's shirt)

Although sometimes, as seen here, they're pointy but do not have sharp edges.




Disarms with a sai

Beats Razorfist

Elektra and Daredevil vs American Samurai, 1 and 2

One-shots each of the Four Winds (including reflecting throwing stars at opponent)

Pulls out guy’s eyeball with little training

Defeats Dictator who has Scorpio Key

Fighting super-powered Hand ninjas

Elektra's fight with Tiger Shark in comparison with Spider-Woman vs Tiger Shark

Kills her sensei

Vs Herc and Zeus

One-shots two superhumans on Raft

Elektra and Shroud vs Purple Man

Elektra fights better than Wolverine vs the Hand (Wolverine favorably describes her fighting skills compared to his)

Both the Wolverine and Elektra fights against Shikaru the Mute (Elektra does better against Shikaru than Wolverine does on his first attempt, where Wolverine is completely beaten)

Vs Lyle possessed by the Beast (quickly defeats Hand’s champion)

Quickly kills 2 mobsters

Takes 6 alert and armed mobsters by surprise, kills them in the dark, then surprises and kills at least 4 more.

Defeats several more armed mobsters.

Vs Avery, a girl with Wolverine-style enhanced speed, strength, durability, and healing factor.

Defeats 3 of Arcade's card-themed super-strong robots.

Kills the "immortal" Greek-god-powered Medea.

Elektra kills some wanna-be assassins with advanced energy weapons with some sticks of bamboo.

Repeatedly strikes feral Wolverine without being hit in return, or leaps past him without being hit: one, two, three, four

Kills 24 supervillains in 24 hours

Stabs Wolverine in such a way that she knows it will take longer for him to heal and make it hard for him to fight back (as seen by the fact that he stays on the ground and she is up and about on the next page): one, two

Defeats at least 15 Hand while, as they point out, almost naked and unarmed.

Elektra beats up Paladin, despite starting out locked up, and being in terrible shape due to continuous torture by the Skrulls and HAMMER

Beats up a squad of HAMMER agents, with some aim dodging, despite being in terrible shape due to continuous torture by the Skrulls and HAMMER (as pointed out), and in the process then being shot twice and having her ankle broken. She also starts off with only a knife.

Beats up two ex-SHIELD agents, despite all the injuries listed immediately above, and again having only her basic hand weapons against machine guns and a rifle.

Has a psychic conversation while beating up some mobsters.

Has a psychic conversation while beating up some Hand.

Fights with a pipe in one hand and a sword in the other--two very differently-weighted weapons, with very different styles

Defeats a giant robot of Arcade's, starting out unarmed and eventually getting amped by Murderworld gear.

Defeats all the guards of SHIELD's best prison, just with paintball guns.

Beats a bunch of yakuza with Punisher.

Effortlessly beats Punisher in sparring while holding back.

Beats Punisher in fight and various challenges

Kills Kirigi, an immortal champion of the Hand (some background on him, and some more background)

Fights the Silencer (he has teleportation and intangibility powers and enhanced strength) and then she and Spider-man beat him in the rematch using strategy

Elektra kills numerous soldiers in the desert

Defeats two SHIELD Hulkbuster robots

A Chaste says "already, she is a mighty warrior" after only a year of training.

Quickly beats Boomerang and Bushwhacker at once

Blind fighting: Elektra and Shroud vs Purple Man (fights while in Darkforce as well as Shroud)

She precisely describes that an opponent has three possible kicks he can use, but he uses what she knows is the wrong one, showing her extreme level of skill/tactics. (Assassin)

Disarms Chastity after surviving a crashed helicopter. (Assassin)

Chastity confirms that Elektra has an “inhuman combat ability,” “an excellent sense of strategy,” and “paranormal powers.” (Assassin)

Here she quickly punches a guy’s nose into his head and then breaks another guy’s arm more quickly than Garrett can see—while underwater. (Assassin)

The Beast tries to kill her with its magic, but she resists and stabs it with a spear, temporarily defeating it. (Assassin)

Kills four heavily-armed mercenaries in 37 seconds, and uses poisoned shuriken.

At twelve years old, after only two years of martial arts training, she beats her sensei.

She gets out of the invulnerable Stone's grip by using a painful head butt and throw.

Beats 11 skilled martial artists she is training (off panel)

Quickly beats off attacks from the Chaste masters Flame, Star, and Claw.

A college-era Elektra brutally takes out five thugs, including throwing one guy at least 15' using only one arm, and potentially using one of her patented "punching through the body" techniques, given how the guy is bent over and bleeding from the stomach after she punches him in the belly, although that detail isn't clear.


First fight with Daredevil. She wins via prep, then throws sai into Ben Urich

Vs Daredevil in 2016 1, 2 (See above for context; he says he "survived that...barely") [I had the wrong link on here for ages, and just fixed it--SORRY!]

Fights Taskmaster, parts 1 and 2, now with more context

Elektra vs Shang-Chi

Fighting with Drake

Sparring with Drake

Elektra, Daredevil, Shang Chi, and Ghost Maker parts 1, 2, 3

Fights Wolverine in Redeemer: Main fight. Short interrupted fight later.

Spars Wolverine as she teaches him to raise himself from feral to samurai mind-set. She knows he is trying to trick her with his strategy; overall the fight is even.

Fights Wolverine in Enemy of the State. The fight starts with both of them knowing the other is there; there is no surprise. She incaps him with a nerve strike which he only gets out of due to an explosion, then strikes him again in such a way that it takes him a while to heal so that he is on the ground and she is up and about, and he comments on her speed and thinks that "another two seconds and I'm...", clearly implying "dead." Knowing he's going to lose, he runs off and decides to try to drown her, saying that's his "only way."

Elektra and Wolverine kill hundreds if not thousands of Hand. This is one of the most impressive fights against "fodder" that I've ever seen. Except they're not fodder, because these same Hand just defeated a Sentinel robot with just swords. Elektra clearly fights as well as Wolverine here, and in fact he would not have started the fight because he thought there were too many. (See post 23 above for estimates on their numbers).

In two parts (one, two) she brutally beats a bunch of Hand on jetpacks, plus two Hand that call themselves the "Sons of Death" and have magic powers. Then she steals their dragon.

In a montage, beats Blizzard, Crossbones, Whiplash, Shocker, Boomerang, Jack O'Lantern, Blackout, Whirlwind, and Tiger Shark in groups of ones and twos--all Iron Man, Spider-Man, Ghost Rider, Namor, and Captain America villains.

Beats Lady Bullseye in their first match.

She beats Lady Bullseye, who has been enhanced so she can become incorporeal. again.

She fights enhanced versions of Whiplash, Tiger Shark, and Jack O'Lantern all at once, and pretty much one-shots each of them. These are Iron Man, Namor, and Spider-man villains, and they've had their powers enhanced by the Assassins Guild. Also, this is pretty much right after she was stabbed in the torso by Lady Bullseye. How badly did she beat them? The League of Assassins said she "dropped them like prom dresses" and that their "new abilities didn't matter a lick."

Easily beats and almost solos the Serpent Squad (she gets a little help from Matchmaker): Black Mamba, Sidewinder, Death Adder, and Anaconda, the last two of which are physically very formidable, and Black Mamba has tough psychic powers.

Beats Cape Crow

Fights Bloody Lips the first time (interrupted by psychic attack on them both)

Beats Bloody Lips

Fights multiple Skrulls with super-powers. She kills three: one with martial arts skills with Ghost Rider powers; one with Wolverine powers; and one with Daredevil, Nightcrawler, and Cyclops powers. She is finally beaten by one with Invisible Woman, Colossus, and Thing powers.

Beats Silver Samurai

Fights Iron Fist to a draw until he unleashes a major chi explosion.


Elektra has fought against Bullseye four times in canon. I will include all of them here for comparison's sake. She was killed by him the first time, and has roundly defeated him each time since then. In the most recent battle, he admitted that "you were always better than me, Elektra." And "Me in my prime, you in yours? You'd beat me, every day of the week and twice on Sunday. So there is no question that she is currently far superior to him.

(Any other fights between them are not canon, and are either alternate universe fights like Elektra Lives!, or they are actually the Skrull Pagon, such as the fight in the Murdock Papers arc in Daredevil vol. 2. The following four fights are the only canon fights.)

Fight One: She has the advantage over him (7 landed attacks against 4) until he throws a card at her throat, disabling her, and then kills her. So it's kind of a cheap-shot win. Here is Daredevil's fight against Bullseye right after for comparison (5 hits by Daredevil vs 2 by Bullseye, not counting any of the bullrushes since it's less clear who gets the advantage from them, before they get on the wire and Daredevil drops him. So about the same hit ratio).

Fight Two: He trains for months specifically to defeat her, aided by a group that gives him holograms of her to spar against and an extensive database on everything about her. He knows everything about how she moves and fights. In short he is as ready as he will ever be to fight her. He wins for a while, then she trounces him.

Fight Three: She has just escaped from a HAMMER Helicarrier. Immediately previous to this, she had been tortured by the Skrulls, and then HAMMER, for months each, with many narrative notes about how she is in terrible shape. She just woke up at Night Nurse's place, got shot at, and then fights Bullseye. He tricks her into getting poisoned, which he notes is so lethal a poison that he can't believe she can stand. Then she falls off a four-story building (height shown in another scene). Then, when he thinks he's got her, she gets the hell up and acrobatically flips over Bullseye and stabs him in the back, in a mirror of how he killed her, completely defeating him. He's almost dead and only rescued by an ambulance.

Fight Four: Bullseye has been magically enhanced by the Hand to become faster and stronger. He admits (see links above) that he could normally never beat her. But, with his enhancements, he does beat her to the ground, severely, so she's half blind and has brain and skull injuries. Then she get gets the hell up and shakes it off (like in the previous fight) and proceeds to beat a bunch of Hand, the magic-powered white and black Hand leaders, and Bullseye (using the magic black ninja's skull to remove Bullseye's Hand enhancements and super-age him) for a complete victory.


Elektra escapes strait jacket while drugged and brainwashed

Can slip out of a strait jacket even when in her Beast-mind-controlled semi-conscious state. (Assassin)

Successfully infiltrates SHIELD's best prison, just with paintball guns.



Elektra kills numerous soldiers in the desert (races around killing soldiers from different angles while almost dead, and with great stealth)

Hunts down rich dude (strategically takes him down over a long period)

Elektra vs Silencer 1 and 2 (figures out how to beat Silencer with magnets at same time as Spider-Man)

She has no doubt that she could kill 30 guards with automatic weapons if she did it alone, by stealth.

Elektra jumps out of a high-rise building’s window with a parachute.

5 minutes of prep is called “an eternity” for Elektra.

Leads an army of resurrected supervillains to successfully crash a helicarrier that was protected by Nick Fury and Wolverine: one, two, three

Reads Ulysses (one of the most complex works of Modernist literature) while simultaneously being involved in a SHIELD briefing

Fights strategically by disarming a Hand with a shuriken

Comes up with "three perfect ideas" for capturing Wolverine while in the middle of a fight

Teaches feral Logan back into a "samurai" level of mind again, preparing him to use strategy again after previously only being mindless; she knows that he is trying to trick her with the final "sword-sheathing" gambit.

When she fights Lady Bullseye, who has been enhanced so she can become incorporeal, she tricks her into becoming physical and intentionally lets her stab her in the abdomen in order to beat her!

Beats Cape Crow through prep (her sai are booby trapped)

Beats Bloody Lips by tricking him into absorbing her traumatic psyche

She and Spider-man beat the Silencer by noticing his weakness to magnetism

Beats Daredevil with a trap

Chastity confirms that Elektra has an “inhuman combat ability,” “an excellent sense of strategy,” and “paranormal powers.” (Assassin)

In an impressive example of psychological warfare, she kills a bunch of soldiers, making the rest of the very large militia to all run off during the night.

Using strategy, she pretends to be dead, then cuts through a major ninja’s throat using a bow string.

After stealing SHIELD security details, she goes behind the wall where her target is sitting and stabs him through the heart (without any direct physical sensation of where he is). (Assassin)



Makes a SHIELD agent think he killed her

Stealth on a jeep (disappears and reappears multiple times in plain sight)

Appearing and disappearing in front of Nick Fury and multiple SHIELD agents

Speaks to the dead on their plane

Resists Shatterhead's psychic powers.

Shields herself from Jean Grey's psi-probe (in circumstances where Jean's powers are a bit fuzzy from the environment)

Heals herself through meditation

Her SHIELD/HAMMER file says she has powers of "mind transference" and "possession" (in a reference to Elektra: Assassin)

Initiates a psychic conversation with Wolverine

Is able to quickly shake off the Hand's mind-control from her (second) resurrection. This mind control worked effectively for a very long time on Wolverine, getting him to carry out effective strikes on the Fantastic Four and X-Men, and was only able to be removed via intensive and lengthy official de-conditioning, despite his psychic defenses and healing factor. It also worked on hundreds of supervillains. One, two.

Has a psychic conversation with Gorgon "at the speed of thought," before SHIELD agents are able to react: one, two

Has a psychic conversation while beating up some mobsters.

Has a psychic conversation while beating up some Hand.

Resists Black Mamba's formidable powers, saying "no one can infiltrate my mind--when I'm prepared."

Chastity confirms that Elektra has an “inhuman combat ability,” “an excellent sense of strategy,” and “paranormal powers.” (Assassin)

She psychically visits Daredevil’s Beast-controlled mind and communicates with his true self.

Hears her parents’ conversation while in the womb.

Mind-controls several Hand very soon after joining the Hand.

Using her chi, she makes several stalactites fall off a cave roof.

Telepathically communicates with the Chaste, including Stick against his will. (Assassin)

She reads Stick’s mind without his permission at 12. This is again confirmed later in the series. Confirms Assassin’s similar scene.

Telepathically communicates with Garrett, a SHIELD agent she mind-controls. (Assassin)

When she has a vision of the Beast’s plans, she is able to send the vision “like a movie” to Garrett. (Assassin)

Switched places with Sandy, a girl in a coma. This meant BOTH inhabiting Sandy’s body with Elektra’s mind, AND making Elektra’s body look like Sandy. Eventually the Beast, the Hand’s super-powerful demon lord, helped Sandy, and Elektra was almost trapped in Sandy’s body. (This is just a selection of pages from a very long episode.) (Assassin)

Psychically kills Sandy, despite the Beast’s powers, and escapes.

Switches bodies/creates illusions around SHIELD agent Chastity McBryde. She made Chastity look like Elektra, so Garrett shot Chastity. Then they took “Elektra” into custody, did a bunch of tests, and only after a long time did they realize that it was actually Chastity, which shows the power of her illusions. (Assassin)

Confirmation of what happened while possessing/switching places with Chastity. (Assassin)

Creates a long-lasting mind control over Garrett (this is a non-sequential series of examples). (Assassin)

Confirmation that she can do mind control and hallucinations (Assassin)

Silent shout--a physical blast that can knock someone backwards and out. (Assassin)

She is captured by SHIELD and they try to read her mind with a machine. Instead she simultaneously mind-controls Garrett and probes their security details through the computer, learning everything she needs to know about SHIELD. (Assassin)

When she gets out, she kills the SHIELD agent using the machine through psychic feedback. (Assassin)

At the end of Assassin, she seems to switch the minds of Garrett and presidential candidate Ken Wind. Garrett then becomes president in Wind’s body. However, in Daredevil’s Fall from Grace arc, it turns out that she actually just created a permanent delusion in Garrett’s mind that he was president, and also imparted part of her own tainted soul into his body. (Assassin)

After stealing SHIELD security details, she goes behind the wall where her target is sitting and stabs him through the heart (without any direct physical sensation of where he is). (Assassin)

She pranks Garrett on multiple occasions, using mind-clouding psi powers and/or stealth. Here she shot his beer can, stole his pistol out of his shoulder holster, and took a gun out of the floor and made it fall apart when he picked it up without him knowing she was there at all. Here she steals his gun again. Here she plants drugs on him and steals his plane ticket—while he is specifically looking for her. (Assassin)

She telekinetically moves a roulette ball.

For context on what kinds of chi abilities the Hand have, here are some examples of the abilities of Hand ninjas Thought (a telepath), Pain (a little unclear, but it seems like his strikes cause added pain), and Shadow (stealth, doesn't reflect in mirrors).



Scares Killer Shrike just by her presence

Gets Sidewinder to beg for mercy.

After killing more than 20 guards, the remaining few are surrender monkeys, giving up as she points her sai at them.

It costs $2 million per kill to hire her

Batroc says the price to pay a villain to fight Elektra is 1.5 times what it costs to fight Captain America

Made $400,000 a day when working for SHIELD

Respected by Wolverine 1, 2

She respects Wolverine and he respects her. He brings her to Silver Fox's grave, and she brings him to her home in Greece.

At the end of her fight with Wolverine in Enemy of the State, Wolverine clearly believed she was going to defeat him, saying, "Another two seconds and I'm--."

Wolverine thinks the only way he's going to beat her is to drown her. In other words he doesn't think he can win by fighting. If that doesn't work he has to hope he can run away: "Have to drown her. It's the only way. Hope it slows her down and gives me a head start at least." She clearly thinks she could beat him too: "You think a locked door is going to save you?"

Wolverine thinks she is the "world's greatest ninja" and also strongly implies that if she couldn't beat Gorgon, then he can't either ("what chance do you have").

Gorgon, who is a genius, and Elsbeth von Strucker, who is a genius, as well as Wolverine, want a new partner, and explicitly choose Elektra over Daredevil. (This is not due to her willingness to kill, as their mind control would make anyone willing to kill or fight their friends, as it did with Northstar and Wolverine.) So all these people think Elektra would be the most effective person in creating havoc in the world and attacking the world's super-teams and security forces. When they end up losing Wolverine but gaining Elektra, Gorgon and Elsbeth clearly consider it a net win, meaning they think she is better than Wolverine, despite the fact that he has been carrying out successful strikes against the Fantastic Four and X-men, and has had "half the the world's security forces on red alert."

Elektra and Wolverine vs Gorgon. While Elektra and Wolverine are thoroughly beaten, it is worthwhile to point out that Wolverine and SHIELD chose her to be his partner in this attempt out of all the other heroes in the world.

Even the Vatican will hire Elektra.

Punisher compliments her fighting style in many ways, saying he is outclassed.

Bloody Lips considers Elektra's blood (which he can use to copy her abilities) of greater worth than Lady Bullseye's (and seemingly anyone else's)

The Hand’s name for her is “Perfect Death"

Comic tagline is “World’s Most Dangerous Assassin” and "Most Dangerous Assassin in the World"

Nick Fury says Shang Chi is “at least her equal”

Is called an "Omega-level threat" to a helicarrier even while she is in terrible shape from extended torture from the Skrulls and HAMMER

Tony Stark, Director of SHIELD, calls her the "most dangerous assassin on the planet."


Owen Reece, the Molecule Man: a period by period history

Owen Reece, the Molecule Man:

A period by period history, with emphasis on his Son and his history of affecting organic molecules

I wrote a Character of the Week feature for the Daily Debater where I examined the history of Owen Reece, the Molecule Man. This blog post takes on the same basic subject but breaks it down differently. There, I looked at the many ways he has changed over his history, in terms of his personality, body, and powers, and discussed them by the kind of change. Here, I'll discuss them chronologically.

Owen Reece is almost defined by change. He has very different phases within his history. Sometimes on the battle boards, we act as if there were maybe four versions of Reece--classic inorganic-molecules-only Reece, pre-retcon Secret Wars II Reece, post-Cosmic Cube retcon Reece, and current post-Secret Wars 2015 Reece. However, there are several more distinct phases, and some of them are quite different from the general understanding--especially the idea that he couldn't affect organic molecules before Doom enlightened him at the end of Secret Wars I. I'll also get way more into the idea of the Molecule Man's "son," an obscure but key phase in his history.

To try to show exactly how complicated these changes are, I’ve made a chart that shows his most important historical moments, and ties it in to big evolutions in his powers, his various origin stories, and his personality.

No Caption Provided

I’ll go through all these changes and inconsistencies below. The summary: Throughout his career, Owen Reece has been one of the most powerful beings in the Marvel Universe. He has gone from loser who was mad at the world to someone who found peace and self-acceptance in love in what I believe was one of the great character-development stories in Marvel. Then he somehow lost all his self-worth and went totally bananas, until he was once again redeemed in the 2015 Secret Wars storyline, and once again found peace in his post-Secret Wars adventures with the Future Foundation.

You know I can’t hold back when I’m writing about the Molecule Man, so get ready for a long but hopefully very elucidating ride!

Reece's Original Origin, and the Beginning of His Career as a Villain

Fantastic Four 20

Noteworthy History

The original version of the source of his powers is straightforward. In Fantastic Four 20, he is a social misfit working at an atomic power plant. There is an accident, and he gets powers. Pretty straightforward, basically just like Peter Parker getting bitten by a spider, or Hulk getting hit by a gamma bomb.


His power level at this time is significant—the Watcher breaks his interference oath to ask the Fantastic Four to stop him, saying “he has the power to destroy worlds, galaxies, yes…even universes!” and that with his power, “an entire universe becomes imperiled.” Indeed when the FF manage to short-circuit his powers, it is the Watcher himself who banishes him to another dimension.

He can only affect inorganic molecules, and in fact when he tries to affect organic molecules, it creates a feedback loop that knocks him for a loop.

He also needs a wand to use his powers.

Buuuuuuuutttttt…this whole “inorganic molecules only” thing is inaccurate even from the start, because he is able to control electricity (calling them “electric molecules”), bend a wooden water tower, and create magnets that are attracted to organic molecules (which, depending on how you look it may be only affecting organics by second-hand, but still that's pretty significant; in any case the wood tower is a first-degree effect on organics). See "The Wand Period" below for more on this subject.

Origin of Powers

His powers are a complete accident.


He’s an angry geek, out to get revenge on a world that done him wrong.

The Son of the Molecule Man

Marvel Two-in-One 1

Noteworthy History

This is where it gets weird. In this other dimension, time moves at a different rate than ours, and Reece eventually dies of old age—but not before he creates a “son” who then replicates Reece’s accident using machinery he has built in that universe. This son then goes to the 616 universe, where little time has passed, and wreaks havoc before the Thing makes him drop his wand. The son of the Molecule Man’s body then ages at an extreme rate before the Thing’s eyes, and he disintegrates.


He can affect everything, organic and inorganic, as for instance when he gives a guy Mr. Fantastic-like powers, and stretches him until he breaks, and turns the Thing and Man-Thing into their human forms. He can also teleport between dimensions and from place to place within the 616 universe. He needs the wand.


The son gets his powers from a machine he and the original Owen Reece made to duplicate his original accident. It was also made to specifically allow him to affect organic molecules as well as inorganic.


He’s an angry geek, out to get revenge on a world that done him and his father wrong.

The Wand Period

Iron Man annual 3, Fantastic Four 187-8, Micronauts 23, Avengers 215-16

Noteworthy History, and a bit of Theorizing

However, his spirit seemingly goes into the wand and then over a series of random issues (Iron Man, Fantastic Four, Micronauts), his spirit possesses the body of whoever picks up the wand. (I'll show examples below under Powers.)

But—an important point. Since the original Molecule Man died in the other dimension, and the “son” is the one whose spirit seemed to go into the wand, and eventually made it out as we’ll see, then arguably every single issue after his second appearance is NOT the Molecule Man, but the SON of the Molecule Man!

However, this doesn’t seem to be the case, based on various handbooks and editorial comments, who have basically wished-away the son. What actually happened is not clear, but probably it is one or a mix of these things:

1) The Son of the Molecule Man was not actually a separate, different being from the original, but was just Reece’s own spirit, split in half. So in effect, the Son was actually a twin, or a clone, of the original, and so the Molecule Man that continued to appear past his second appearance was still essentially the same as the original. Arguably he started off crazier due to the trauma of having his spirit split in two, and slowly returned to normal over time.

2) The Son WAS a different being, but it wasn’t his spirit that went into the wand when the son died. Actually, when the original Molecule Man died, his spirit went into the wand (off panel, and in contradiction to the on-panel description of the son's spirit going into the wand), and then traveled with the son back to our dimension. So the spirit that possessed people who picked up the wand was really the spirit of the original Molecule Man. This doesn't really explain why he looked so much like the son in the next couple appearances however.

3) The Son was a different being, and the original’s spirit went into the wand when he died, but the son's spirit went into the wand too. The original spirit didn’t possess people right away. The Son was the one who possessed people over his next few appearances—which makes sense because in this wand era, he sure looks and acts a lot like the Son. But then in Avengers 215-216, when he gets out of the wand forever, it is the original Molecule Man’s spirit that finally manages to become dominant. This would mean that it is the original Molecule Man who appears in Fantastic Four 20 and all appearances from Avengers 215-216 onwards, but it is the son who appeared from Marvel Two-in-One 1 through Micronauts 23. Or, perhaps, if both of their spirits were in the wand, the original's slowly became dominant over its creation until finally recreating his body.

In the original comics, it seems to imply version (1) is the true case. In Iron Man annual 3, it says “at the instance before his ‘death’ [he] funneled his essence into his wand.” This caption is placed next to a picture of the Son dying, implying that the “Son of” Molecule Man's spirit is what went into the wand, and was the same “spirit” as all the later incarnations of them.

However, the handbooks tend to retcon this and go with option (2). OHOTMU A-Z 7 says the original Reece channeled his spirit into the wand "wielded by his construct, Molecule Man II." (Note that this text then attributes all future appearances to the original Reece.)

His Avengers Most Wanted bio is along the same lines: "Reece created a son for himself in his dimension of exile, and upon his death, transferred his powers and the wand to him. [Note: as we have seen, he didn't actually 'transfer his powers', the Son got his own powers by recreating the original accident with a new machine. So this is inaccurate regardless of the question of spirit transfer.] The new Molecule Man eventually returned to Earth and fought the Thing and Man-Thing, but his life-force was bonded to the wand, and he died when he was separated from it. The wand went on to possess others, acting as a host for the Molecule Man's consciousness, until it finally recreated Reece's original body." This makes it sound like the wand is a host for the original's consciousness. I also like the use of the passive, where "the wand" possessed the people instead of having to explain which spirit did it.

His Secret Wars 2015 bio says, "Reece used his powers to fashion a humanoid construct to serve as his companion, naming it his 'son.' As Reece began to die, he transferred his consciousness into his wand [again, we never saw this happen on panel] and gave the wand to his 'son.'" It then describes how the Son died and the wand possessed people. "Finally the Molecule Man's consciousness within the wand refashioned Owen Reece's original body and permanently transferred his mind into it." Again, while this plays fast and loose with how his spirit got into the wand, it implies that when he finally recreated his body, that was the original spirit (and it probably was during the rest of the possession period).

The '86 OHOTMU is perhaps the most definitive: "Reece created a humanoid construct to serve as his companion, and through unknown means endowed it with consciousness. Reece let the construct to believe itself to be his son....Reece transferred his consciousness and powers into the wand his 'son' carried [again, not on panel he didn't!]. ...However the consciousness and powers of the original Molecule Man remained within the wand, and the Molecule Man could overpower the minds of whoever touched the wand."

In fact, the first edition of OHOTMU uses the same text with one difference: "The consciousness of the true Molecule Man, as well as his powers, had been preserved in the wand."

All these make it sound like the Iron Man annual 3 on-panel text about putting his spirit into the wand before he died referred to the original putting his spirit in before he died of old age, instead of the Son putting his spirit in before disintegrating after dropping the wand--despite the way that panel is actually drawn. My take is that the various writers of these early issues didn't all understand what had happened in the others. You can see here that Jim Shooter himself, who wrote the Avengers story, felt that important parts of his character had been lost; which is to say, he tried to write those problems out of existence by making the spirit in the wand belong to the original, not the son.

Anyway, despite the handbooks, based on a reading of the comics themselves, where his first few wand-era appearances tend to use his muscled, hyper-aggressive Son's body and personality, I tend to go with option 1 (he split his spirit and it eventually reverted to normal) or 3 (the spirits were both in the wand and eventually the original's became dominant) myself.

But wait, you say, how does any of this make sense? Sure, the Son got his powers from a machine that replicated the original accident and allowed him to affect both organic and inorganic molecules, but the original Owen Reece could still not affect inorganic molecules. How could he create a separate son’s body, let alone create a spirit? Well, that’s a damn good question, and I think the answer is, (a) when the Son story was originally written, he really was meant to be a son, but later on they changed that. And (b) as we’ll see next under Powers, Owen Reece has been able to affect both organic and inorganic molecules, and energy, throughout his pre-Secret Wars history, albeit in an inconsistent way.

Importantly, at the end of this phase, Tigra persuades him to see a therapist, and he decides to renounce evil.


He can ostensibly only affect inorganic molecules, but can really affect everything, and needs a wand.

Examples of affecting other kinds of molecules/energy: he keeps possessing people’s bodies (for instance, this girl, Iron Man, this boxer [it happens in the last panel], this homeless man, and Mr. Fantastic) thus using some kind of psychic/spirit powers, or at a minimum control of organic brains; he can transform those bodies (as he does when he turns a lizard into a lizard-man, and a young girl into a woman; he turns a woman into a doll; he makes a mirror out of water and wood; he animates some skeletons; he turns the Thing into glass; he turns hubcaps into flowers; he controls electricity again; he creates his own body from random molecules; he disintegrates and then recreates the Silver Surfer’s surfboard and Mjolnir, including the Power Cosmic and Asgardian magic inherent in them; he drains the SIlver Surfer's power in what is technically a manipulation of a condition of matter but comes down to manipulation of the energy in that matter. And, of course, he created his own Son as already seen.

Interestingly, he is unable to affect the Impossible Man’s molecules, because he has greater control over them, can't possess the mindless Man-thing or the energy-based Klaw, can't affect the Invisible Woman’s forcefield, because it is not made of molecules, and the Fantastic Four’s uniforms, because they are made of unstable molecules. He also can’t make complex machinery like plumbing or Iron Man’s armor because he doesn’t know how they work.

He needs the wand for most of this period, until Avengers, where he recreates his own body instead of possessing someone else’s. From then on, he no longer needs the wand.


Depending on whether he is himself, and/or his son (and if that son is really himself), he got his powers either by a complete accident, or by intentionally replicating that accident.


He’s an angry geek, out to get revenge on a world that done him and/or his father wrong. By Avengers, he is pretty insane, with real obsessive and delusionary issues. But then, at the end, he decides to try to be a nice guy and see a therapist.

Secret Wars I

Secret Wars I, 1-12

Noteworthy History

At this point, Reece has his body and original spirit back, and he goes off to Secret Wars I. There, he mostly works with the villains, but not very enthusiastically, due to the effect of his therapist. He falls in love with Volcana, one of the most significant events in his life.

Eventually, Dr. Doom takes the powers of the Beyonder, and he provides enlightenment to Reece. He shows him that he has been subconsciously limiting his powers and that he is actually one of the most powerful beings in the universe.


Reece is now the second-most most powerful being in the multiverse, above all abstracts, and only below the Beyonder himself. He is explicitly able to affect all matter and energy.


He still got his powers completely by accident. But technically speaking, if his son was really a double of him all along, and it was that double’s spirit that continued to possess people and then eventually evolved itself to having the personality of the original, then that spirit got its powers on purpose by replicating the original’s accident. This is technically a possibility from here on out, but I’m not going to mention it again, partly because it is unlikely.


In part because of his enlightenment, and in part because he found love with Volcana, he turns into a geek who is at peace with himself and the universe.

Secret Wars II

Secret Wars II 1, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, Avengers 266

Noteworthy History

He befriends the Beyonder—one of the only friends Reece ever has—and then kills him. Then he saves the Earth from the fallout of the Beyonder’s destruction, in Reece’s most heroic act. This seems to leave him without his powers, so the heroes ignore him for a while, but really he still has his powers.


Still the second-most powerful being in the multiverse and able to do anything.


While it was still a complete accident that he got his powers, he now has a link with the Beyonder: when Reece got his powers, it was an event of such cosmic significance that it opened a pinhole into the Beyonder’s universe, and the Beyonder, looking in, saw it and started gaining his own self-awareness, having never been aware of anything but himself before.


Still a geek at peace with himself and the universe. Even heroic.

Cosmic Cube

Fantastic Four 318-19

Noteworthy History

Now things really change. Dr. Doom manipulates things so that Reece, the Beyonder (still alive in another dimension), Kubik, and the Shaper of Worlds all end up talking. Kubik and the Shaper of Worlds are Cosmic Cubes who became sentient. Cosmic Cubes each get their power from a pocket dimension of pure power controlled by a race called the Beyonders. These Beyonders release the energy from one of these pocket dimensions into the Cubes as part of their experiments with our universe; they are very interested in evolution and development. The Cubes start as pure objects, then gain personalities.

It turns out that when Reece had his accident, some of this Cube energy went into him, but more of the energy stayed in its own dimension and eventually developed sentience. This second part became the Beyonder. So, in this version, Reece has less than half the power of a Cosmic Cube, and the Beyonder has more than half—together they are equal to one Cosmic Cube.

(Also summarized here, noting the imbalance of power.)

At the end of this, Reece merges with the Beyonder and they go off with Kubik and Shaper to evolve.


Reece’s power is now redefined as being that of a portion of a Cosmic Cube. So, he can still do anything—and arguably now his power should no longer defined as matter/energy manipulation but reality warping, since that’s how Cubes work—but to a lesser degree than before. For instance, Kubik later notes that the Cubes are less powerful than the Celestials. Another appearance of Kubik notes that they are "minor omnipotents." He also says that the Cubes are "insignificant" compared to the main abstracts. Reece also notes how he is below Eternity and the Tribunal.

Kubik, as a whole cube, is much more powerful than the Beyonder alone, and thus more than Reece.

It’s also interesting because Dr. Doom is able to knock Reece out with some gauntlet blasts when taking him unawares, showing that he inhabits a normal human body when not actively using his powers (1, 2). On the other hand, his power did protect him automatically, and it has a rare example of him manipulating time.


Previously, when Reece got his powers, it was so significant that it made a hole into the Beyonder’s universe, and the Beyonder noticed it. But, the Molecule Man’s powers came from the machine itself.

Now, the accident opened a hole into the Beyonder’s universe, which allowed part of the power from the Beyonder’s universe to flow into Reece. Thus, his power and the Beyonder’s power are the same kind of thing (Cube energy).


Still a geek at peace with himself and the universe. Even heroic and capable of self-sacrifice.


Fantastic Four annual 23 and 24, Fantastic Four 372-3, Fantastic Four Annual 27, Avengers Unplugged 4, Incredible Hulk 441-2

Noteworthy History

Reece’s personality soon splits off from the Beyonder’s spirit and the Cube, and he goes back to Earth, with no power, since it was all left in the Cube (it separated his "essence from [his] power"). Except, it turns out that he left a “bit” of his power in Volcana before he left.

He gets this "bit" back from Volcana, but she gets mad at him for lying, and their relationship is over. He spirals into a pit of self-hatred again, and occasionally toys with being a villain.

This whole period is just a series of minor, terrible, largely embarrassing appearances. Why they felt the need to destroy his relationship with Marsha I'll never understand. It would have been so easy to say he lost his powers and he lived happily ever after.

He spends time as a puppet of the Puppet Master, is beaten by a rogue Watcher, and yet somehow manages to defeat the Beyonder, now aka Kosmos the sentient Cube being.


This period is one of the least consistent and logical periods when it comes to his powers. First, when he comes back, he gets back his “bit” of power from Volcana. This is, by definition, a very small portion of his own original power, which was in turn less than half of a Cosmic Cube’s power. And yet, he is eventually able to beat the Beyonder. How?

First, when he first regains the bit of power, he isn’t even able to control organic molecules again, they’re too complicated. (So not because of a mental block, which was usually the old explanation.) He’s able to be mind-controlled by the Puppet-master of all people, and then Aron, the rogue Watcher, beats him by taking away all the air molecules in his immediate vicinity, showing that Reece’s power level is less than the Watcher’s. But then, through “practice,” in his very next appearance (here and here), he is now not only able to affect organic molecules again, but also energy, and at such a level that he “transacts on levels unimaginable” to the Beyonder—even though the Beyonder always had more power than Reece, and especially after they merged, when the Beyonder/Kosmos had absorbed most of Reece’s power, leaving Reece with only a “bit.” This is a huge leap, and all apparently due to practice.

This is all explained in a super-vague way by Kubik, the sentient Cube, who says by that as a human, Reece has more potential than any abstract like a Cube being. Now, somehow, Kubik is less powerful than Reece, even though Kubik was more powerful than the Beyonder, and the Beyonder was more powerful than Reece, in Fantastic Four 318-19. My inference is that perhaps the concept is that Reece is partially drawing on his human psychic potential, which Marvel has said in the past all humans have a vast potential for, like Rick Jones? Anyway, this whole “humans vs abstracts” dynamic is largely ignored in future issues.

He also goes through a variety of pathetically unsuccessful attempts to get Marsha back (like making a sculpture garden of her or putting her on Mt. Rushmore.)


Still gained his powers from a Cube universe, but then lost most of it, but then regained it through “practice.” That regaining of powers may be supplemented by the innate psychic potential that all humans share.


So, so, so lame. Starts off as a self-hating pathetic geek, then eventually turns into an angry geek when he battles the Beyonder, then after the battle he super-super briefly becomes a geek at peace with himself and the universe again. This peace is gone by his next appearance, when he is immediately pathetic and self-hating again.

This phase is the start of the idea that he has multiple personalities and is truly insane. Until now, he was just a bad guy who eventually learned to be good in a natural progression. Starting with his battle with the Beyonder, and continuing on in his appearance in Incredible Hulk, he has a split personality with diametrically different good (but pathetic) and evil sides.

This is by far the most pathetic era of the Molecule Man’s life. He goes from being the hero of Secret Wars II to a complete joke, literally picking his nose on panel and appearing as a shriveled dwarf with an enormous nose. He also somehow becomes an extremely conservative and socially-unskilled person as if he had never had a girlfriend.

There is one interesting thing about his “dark side” self. This dark side, as seen in Fantastic Four Annual 27 (seen here) and Incredible Hulk 442 (seen here), looks an awful lot like the Son—muscled and bald. So it is arguably a way they tried to settle the original inconsistencies with the Son—maybe he wasn’t another person/spirit, but just the original Molecule Man’s dark side made in physical form. Then perhaps when the Son died, and his spirit went into the wand, it merged with remnants of the original’s spirit, which eventually took over. But the dark side Son-self was always waiting to come out, as it eventually did in Fantastic Four Annual 27. (This fits our original option 3, regarding the Son.)

Falling off the Map

New Avengers 1; maybe Spider-man: Breakout 1; Fantastic Four Foes 1, 5; Secret Invasion 1.

Noteworthy History

After his embarrassing appearance in Incredible Hulk, he has no 616 appearances for about 9 years. We learn from implication and handbooks that he was apparently somehow caught by SHIELD and kept in the Raft. Then he escapes with the rest of the criminals during the breakout. He shows up (off panel) to a meeting of villains organized by the Mad Thinker and Puppet Master. However, the Fantastic Four track down and capture all the villains at the meeting, including Reece. This time he and the others are put in a special prison in the Negative Zone. However, some of them escape. Either Reece escapes with them off-panel and is eventually recaptured and put back on the Raft, or the prison is eventually closed and he is just transferred to the Raft. In any case he is seen on the Raft during Secret Invasion, and once again presumably escapes with the rest.

Basically, he is imprisoned and escapes three times, almost all off panel.


Unknown, because he only shows up in super-brief one-panel appearances. But seemingly he must have been depowered to some extent, in order for them to be able to imprison him in the Raft and the Negative Zone prison. Consider that he was powerful enough to defeat the Beyonder immediately before this, but not powerful enough to break out of the Raft.

This brings up the question of his subconscious mental blocks. When he first started, his own self-doubt and self-hatred caused him to limit his powers so he couldn’t affect organic molecules (usually). Then Doom removed these blocks, and with the additional help of his therapist and his love with Volcana, he could do anything. But, after his break-up with Volcana, his old self-doubts and self-hatred returned, and he also started having severe psychological disorders such as split personalities. I would argue that it was this severe mental and emotional breakdown that caused him to be so weakened that he could be imprisoned.

Also interestingly, Reece uses a wand in Fantastic Four Foes. This is the only time he uses it since Avengers 215-16.


Still got his powers from the Cosmic Cube dimension, in conjunction with the Beyonder.

But, at this time, the Illuminati series comes out, and says that the Beyonder was actually a mutant Inhuman, and that’s where his powers came from. While this new origin for the Beyonder was never mentioned again, it would throw a huge loop into the origin of the Molecule Man—because if the Beyonder got his powers from being a mutant Inhuman and not from a Cosmic Cube universe, then where did Reece get his powers from?


Seemingly an angry, pathetic geek.

Dark Avengers

Dark Avengers 10-12

Notable History

A few years later, Reece eventually shows up again, seemingly at relatively full power. He has been living in seclusion in the small town of Dinosaur, Colorado, where he grew up. It is telling that this story treats him more respectfully than he has been in years, and he still gets beaten by the Sentry, and banished to an unknown location.


He can seemingly do anything, and with a fairly high level of achievement. However, the Sentry/Void is explicitly shown to have a higher level of molecular manipulation ability than Reece—presumably due to Reece’s mental instability.


Presumably still got his powers from a Cosmic Cube universe in conjunction with the Beyonder (who was last seen, at this point, having changed its name from Kosmos to the Maker and was seemingly depowered by a fair amount. She was also, ironically, imprisoned around this time period, and then defeated by Thanos and later killed by the destruction of the Kyln space prison).


Totally, bonkers insane geek. He wants to be left alone but acts out violently when found. He has new multiple personalities now, not just his good and evil sides. Now he imagines having conversations with alter egos Mephisto, the Beyonder, the Enchantress, and Zarathos. He has delusions about the nature of reality.

I will note that this is different from the “dark side” self in Fantastic Four Annual 27 and Incredible Hulk 442; while he does change from one body type to another a bit, there is no hugely muscled bald self that is reminiscent of the Son anymore. The Son is done.


New Avengers 24, 26, 27, 29, 31, 33

Notable History

Finally, Jonathan Hickman picks him up again, and his story becomes respectable, and changed, once again.

First we see Reece helping out Doom in his search for solutions to the Incursions. Somehow he ended up here after his fight with Sentry. This makes some sense since Reece does have a long history with Doom in Secret Wars I and the Cosmic Cube storyline.

At some point Reece takes Doom on a tour, explaining Reece’s real role in the universe. The Molecule Man is now said to be empowered directly by the race of the Beyonders, and across all alternate universes. It is said that when he gets to a certain age, he will explode, and this explosion will destroy the whole universe. And since there is one of him in each universe, it will destroy all the universes. Thus Reece is a Beyonders-made time bomb. (Same idea reiterated here.)

This is all confusingly conflated with the concept of the Incursions. In the Incursions, universes crash into each other when their Earths literally physically touch, and their universes are destroyed. It is not really clear whether the Incursions, in the Earth-touching sense, are the result of a Molecule Man exploding, or are a totally separate thing.

Reece asks Doom to go around killing other-dimensional versions of himself. However, it is not clear whether those premature deaths also destroy their universes early, thus making them not available to crash into each other, or if they just don’t explode at all, meaning that when they touch, they don’t have the energy of the Molecule Man to explode. (My guess is that since the Mapmakers explored the worlds where Molecule Men had died, those universes are not destroyed by his death.)

This whole concept also doesn’t take into account the fact that many comics have featured alternate-timeline Molecule Men who are quite different from the 616 Molecule Man. In those comics, some alternate Reeces have died early, also without destroying their universe (Marvel Vision 22, What If: X-men: Age of Apocalypse, Fantastic Four 568, Marvel Universe Avengers Assemble 8), some have had no powers at all (Marvel Adventures Fantastic Four 11, Marvel Universe Avengers Assemble 8), and others have features that don't work with this concept (What if the Avengers Lost the Evolutionary War, where all of the heroes, including Reece, leave their original universe and evolve into a unified supreme being in another universe). But, I salute Hickman for making Reece relevant and non-pathetic again.


Able to affect anything, including metaphysical things like scanning the universe for its faults; however, he clearly has limits. He can't stop the Incursions by himself, for instance.

His power is enough that, if set off, would destroy the universe and presumably everything in it, including the abstracts.


Reece’s accident was not an accident, but part of a plan by the Beyonders to give him enough energy that he would become a living bomb. (In some other universes, he sometimes got his powers in other ways, or had no powers, however.)

While this whole “living bomb” concept does fit in somewhat with the Cosmic Cube origin, in that either way he ultimately gets his powers from the Beyonders, it fails to explain the Beyonder. Did the Beyonder get his powers at the same time as Reece anyway? Why bother making the Beyonder (singular) if the only real point of the accident was to give Reece enough power to destroy his universe? This may partly be explained by several references around this time to the Beyonder being a child member of the Beyonders. If that is the case, the Beyonder was just an infant member of the Beyonders, and his power was not connected to Reece’s power, except that they are both Beyonders-derived. Potentially, it could be argued that all the Beyonders gained their sentience when the energy in these pocket universes become sentient, and some of those happened to become Cosmic Cubes instead of remaining in their own realm. Perhaps other, non-sentience-gaining realms were utilized to empower the multi-dimensional Reeces.


Fairly insane geek, in the sense that he is babbling and wacky. However, he also seems wise, in that he knows what’s going on with the Beyonders. See the next entry for a discussion of multiple different explanations for his insanity here and in other periods.

He does NOT have multiple personalities any more, however.

Secret Wars 2015

Secret Wars 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9

Notable History

Working with Doom and Dr. Strange, Reece gets all the remaining alternate Molecule Men together, and they destroy the Beyonders with their bomb capacity. (Thus implying that there is more total power in a fraction of the original total number of Reeces than there are in the whole race of Beyonders. This implies that killing his other-dimensional selves was actually counterproductive.) He takes the former-Beyonders’ powers into himself.

He then acts as a battery and conduit, channeling power to Doom in his GodDoom state. Eventually Reece revolts against Doom and takes the power away from him. He then joins up with Franklin and Reed Richards to recreate the entire multiverse. Essentially, Reece is still the battery, and he gives Franklin the power; Franklin filters the power through his own dreams to create the universes (even though Franklin has been shown to be powerful enough to create universes on his own before).


It is unclear whether Reece’s power now, with all the Beyonders’ power, is more powerful than previous version of himself. He is certainly more powerful than his Cosmic Cube version, since that was a clearly limited form of omnipotence, but is he as powerful as the Secret Wars II version of himself, that was for instance capable of destroying several billion dimensions? He is clearly capable of, at a minimum, creating many new universes.


It is unclear whether he retains any of his original powers. Does he now only have the power of the Beyonders—did that wipe his power-slate clean, and provide new and different powers? Or does he have the combined power of all the remaining Molecule Men, including himself, plus the Beyonders? This is implied when one of his selves peels off in each new universe.


A warbling, gibbering insane geek, who has a clear moral center. At the end, when one of his selves peels off and goes into each new universe, that is supposed to be bringing him back to sanity.

It's worth summarizing the explanations for his mental and emotional instability here. (I'm just copying this part from my Daily Debater Character of the Week piece.)

First, let's recall that his early psychosis around the wand period was due to simple anger, and potentially the merger of his Son's spirit with his own. Then much later he started having multiple personalities, such as an "evil side," usually with physical manifestations of new bodies to go with those selves, which harkened back to his old Son-era persona. By Dark Avengers he was full-time delusional.

During the Incursion storyline and afterwards, it was explained that he got more mentally unstable the closer he got to the “time bomb explosion” point in his life; I take this to mean that as he becomes metaphysically unstable, like a bomb is chemically unstable, he also becomes mentally unstable. Then it was explained that he was going crazy because Doom was killing all his extra-dimensional selves (also explained here: each death makes him lose a memory). When he comes to talk to Doom, he says he has been "returned here. All of us"--that is, this version of the Molecule Man is mentally complete, from a future era with no dead Molecule Men. The implication is, he has a shared consciousness with all his selves, and he is only completely sane when all of his selves are alive and together. But then later it was explained that as he made more universes with Franklin, he split off the many versions of himself that he had absorbed in the fight with the Beyonders, one for each new universe; when they slowly started splitting off, it made him more sane. In this argument, too many Reeces make him insane, the opposite of the previous explanation. In any case,

Post-2015 Secret Wars (below), when Reece talked with Galactus in Ultimates, he was crazy. But, the version that was simultaneously voyaging with the Future Foundation was fine. One possible explanation for this difference may be that the Ultimates version could have been one of the split-off selves, which were possibly not as sane as the core self; or maybe the Ultimates version was him in a not-yet-sane era, where he had not yet split off enough other selves. Whereas the version in Fantastic Four 2 was him five years later, after he had split off many of those selves and had become more sane.

Post-Secret Wars 2015

Ultimates 5, 6, New Avengers 17, Ultimates2 7-9, Fantastic Four 2

Notable History

Most of Reece’s appearances or mentions came about in stories that seemed to take place separately from his mission with the Fantastic Four to recreate the universes.

He—or at least a splinter of himself, since it seemed from the end of Secret Wars that there would be splinters of himself in each universe he created, which would presumably include 616—seems more interested in getting involved with the universes, in making sure they come out right. He chats with Galactus about a problem that’s coming. We discover that he puts variants of the Maker in each universe, and also that he is backing the efforts of one of them to stop the First Firmament, the original iteration of Eternity, and his horde of Death Celestials, who plan to destroy the current universe. (Also see here.)

In Fantastic Four 2, we find that he has been traveling with Reed, Sue, and the Future Foundation for five years (although time has moved at different rates for them) to create new universes, and see some examples of them doing this. Reece gives Franklin power, then he creates the universe.

Then Reece is quickly killed in a battle with the Griever, an abstract who represents entropy. However, Dragon Man and the Future Foundation go on a mission to see if they can find any remnant of him, and bring him back. Also, what does it mean to kill him, if there is a different version in each universe that they’ve made? And also, consider that the Griever destroyed most but not all of the universes that those splinter selves were in, so she actually killed many versions of him.


Again, it is unclear exactly how powerful he is, but he is obviously extremely powerful. Galactus considers Reece to be on a different level above him. On the other hand he schemed against the First Firmament through catspaws, instead of directly, but we don’t really know if that was due to need or entertainment. He is capable of creating numerous universes with the aid of Franklin. One question is, if he is the one who was providing the power to create these universes, why is it that Franklin is the one whose power burned out in the process of doing so?


The same as in Secret Wars 2015: he got his current power by defeating the Beyonders and absorbing their power, and potentially also the power of all the Molecule Men across the multiverse—who in turn all got their power from the Beyonders in the first place. Again, his power may not be related to the original Beyonder any more.


In the Ultimates issues, he’s a totally bonkers geek. But in the Fantastic Four, he’s a completely calm, at peace with himself and the world geek, who has been a beloved friend and companion of the entire Future Foundation, kids and adults, to the degree that they painfully feel the effects of his death and go on a quest to see if they can bring him back.

This was a good way to end Reece's life and career--but based on comments in the letters pages, and the Future Foundation's quest, it seems likely he'll be back. I only hope that he'll have some peace of mind when he returns.


Elektra: Assassin--Canon or Not? An Analysis.

I want to address the question of whether Elektra: Assassin is canon within the mainstream Marvel continuity.

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I don’t consider this to be a clear-cut situation. There are many who do not consider it canon, and others who do. I have had both opinions over the years. Here, we will look at the evidence on both sides.


First, why the question of its canonicity? One reason is that Elektra displays powers beyond what people normally expect her to have—the silent shout, the ability to possess people, to create illusions, to deflect bullets off the back of her hand. To be clear, Elektra DOES shows psychic powers in many other 100% canonical comics—but usually not at this level. However, while these powers are of an arguably greater extent, they are not of a different kind. (Note: Elektra: Assassin usually refers to these powers as magic. In other Elektra and Hand-related comics, these powers are also sometimes referred to as psychic or chi-based. It may be a mix of all three. The magic in particular derives from the Beast, about whom more later, and may be either granted by the Beast directly or potentially learned as a ritual and thus within the character’s permanent power set, while the chi or psychic powers are more individually-learned abilities.)

Assassin has some slightly different historical details from the standard 616 storyline, in particular the circumstances of her mother’s death and her implied abuse at the hands of her father. However, Elektra’s early history has changed over time, so these differences in history are not necessarily damning in themselves. For instance, the Elektra Flashback issue had a clearly different story of her training from other current tellings, and the exact timeline of when she first met Stick, the Chaste, and her first sensei have all changed a bit over the years. Interestingly, Marvel’s various changes in history, like updating the invention of Iron Man from the Korean War to the war in Afghanistan, and the 2015 Secret War event, have made these minor continuity differences less important than they may have seemed a couple decades ago.

Another issue that that Elektra: Assassin is an Epic comic, and often—perhaps usually—Epic comics are not considered to be in the mainstream universe. For instance, in the letters page for Daredevil 322, the editor specifically says that Elektra Lives! was not canon and was thus put out by Epic.

However, Daredevil 322 is part of the Fall from Grace story arc, which specifically brings SHIELD agent John Garrett, a character from Epic’s own Elektra: Assassin, into the 616 continuity. Even more, the same letters page in 322 has a reader bring up Elektra: Assassin right before the reader who asks about Elektra Lives!, and the editor discusses Assassin without in any way demoting its canonicity. I would argue that if Assassin was also not canon, or not fully canon, then the editor would have noted that they were both not canon, instead of only saying that Lives! in particular was not canon—especially since the Assassin storyline was the basis for the storyline taking place in that very issue.

Bill Sienkiewicz has noted that Jim Shooter required Sienkiewicz’s and Miller’s Daredevil: Love and War comic to come out as a graphic novel instead of as a normal comic due to its experimentation and adult topics; it is possible that Assassin came out under Epic for those reasons, and not due to continuity.


Speaking of Garrett, this is how he is introduced in Daredevil 319. He is in a tank held by SHIELD, and is under the delusion that he is president, exactly he was when Assassin ended. The fact that this is a delusion makes it easier to explain how Assassin could fit in the real world, without all the nuclear Armageddon stuff or the Ken Wind candidacy, which are not mentioned elsewhere in 616. Agent Garrett is then released by the Hand, and acts in Daredevil just as he did in Assassin: obsessed with Elektra, and referencing Assassin events obliquely (although he usually does not reference specific events).

This is pretty good evidence that this Daredevil story arc took Assassin as canon—but it uses the cover of Garrett’s delusions to make it so anything that is a little too over the top could be explained away as the delusion. As far as I know, the end scene, where Garrett’s mind is transferred into Wind, is the only part of Assassin that has been explicitly retconned or discounted. He is, however, a somewhat unreliable narrator in regard to some topics due to Elektra’s psychic influence on him.

In addition to his appearances in Daredevil in and after Fall from Grace, Garrett has appeared in recent issues of Secret Warriors and Al Ewing’s 2015 Sunspot-led New Avengers so his continued existence in the 616 universe is not in doubt. (He also has an MCU existence in the Agents of SHIELD TV show.)


These kinds of nods to Assassin’s existence have shown up in a few other comics. Here in a Punisher comic, it refers to “telepathy, body-swapping, mind-control, and ‘for want of a better word, magic’” taking place in a “badly compromised SHIELD operation in the eighties”—i.e. the Assassin storyline. It makes it clear that Castle is suspicious of these powers, but then he also specifically buttresses the credibility of the sources, saying “these are Fury’s people talking, not some bunch of clowns.”

Here in Elektra: Dark Reign, a HAMMER interrogator makes the same kind of reference to these events and abilities, but again throws some doubt on them: “Your dossier is full of scary terms like ‘mystical mind transference’ and ‘possession.’ I’d assume the intel is apocryphal, but we’re not taking any chances.” In the same issue, Elektra heals herself through meditation, thus exhibiting her chi/magic/psychic powers directly and lending credibility to the very powers the interrogator is unsure about.

Root of Evil, an early miniseries, deliberately echoed and confirmed some specific scenes in Assassin when it had the young Elektra read Stick’s mind, and showed her ability to walk on snow without a trace (Assassin scene with snow and telepathy; Root of Evil snow, telepathy).

Since there’s no reason for writers and editors to bring up these Assassin powers and events at all if they’re not canon, these kinds of references make it clear that the events happened to some degree. At the same time, they give some cover to the idea that individual aspects of Assassin may not be confirmed, partially due to Garrett’s somewhat unreliable narrator status, allowing future writers to selectively use whatever parts of the story they want.


I was lucky enough to talk with Bill Sienkiewicz, the artist of Assassin, at the New York Comic Con this year. I asked if he and Miller thought of Assassin taking place in the mainstream Marvel universe, or an alternate universe. He laughed and said that they saw it taking place in its own universe, and even had ideas for other characters to populate it with if they had been able to continue to work on it.

This is pretty straight evidence that Assassin was originally conceived as being out of 616 continuity. On the other hand, Miller had originally asked Marvel to promise that they would not bring Elektra back from the dead, and that no one could write Elektra other than him, but Marvel eventually broke that promise and brought her back in the Fall from Grace storyline. It seems reasonable to me that if Marvel reneged on keeping her dead and for Miller’s use only, they’d also feel free to change any previous appearances’ canonicity issues as well, especially since prior to Fall from Grace, her total appearances were very limited.


The Introduction from Assassin provides some further clues. First, it says that Miller wanted to write a book about her after she died. Presumably this is Lives!, although it didn’t come out until later. Then he wanted to write an early-days book—Assassin, which would avoid the issues being dealt with in the other graphic novel he was working on, and the fact that she was dead. This implies that it was meant to take place in continuity, otherwise why worry about contradicting anything?

The subtitle of Assassin is “The Lost Years.” This implies not only when it took place chronologically (before her first appearance in Daredevil) but that it was in continuity; if it was an alternate universe, why mention when it took place at all? The years of an alternate reality couldn’t be “lost,” because the rest of that reality would also be unknown.


In Assassin, Elektra has a number of magic and other high-level feats. She blocks a bullet with the back of her hand, punches through people, uses a silent shout to knock a guy backwards and unconscious, switches her mind and body with other people on two occasions, creates illusions and controls Garrett’s mind, and switches Garrett’s mind into the President’s body.

Punching through people’s bodies is something she has continued to do in both non-canon (Elektra Lives!) and canon sources (multiple times in various Elektra series).

Transferring Garrett’s mind into the President, as seen in Assassin, turns out in Fall from Grace to be a delusion she fed him: instead she made him think she switched his mind, an effect that lasted years, and (importantly) she also put a bit of her own spirit into Garrett. This “evil” side of her was then later used by the Hand to put into Erynys. When Elektra killed her, the evil side left Erynys and moved back into Elektra, sullying her previously-purified self (Daredevil had purified Elektra using Chaste techniques during her original “death,” after which Stone presumably resurrected her). Point being, the connection between Assassin and Fall from Grace proves within the 616 universe that she was capable of soul transfer and creating a lasting delusion in Garrett.

We have not seen her engage in possession or body switching since then, at least as far as I am aware.

For those who think the Assassin feats are far beyond the norm, it is helpful to consider what the Hand has done in the clearly-canon universe:

• The Hand worship the Beast, a magical being of great power, who for example was seen in Daredevil recently, where he was able to repeatedly bring Ten Fingers back to life (and was the source of Ten Fingers’ original stolen power), and it also did the same to Daredevil. It also created new eyes for Blindspot and could steal people’s souls. The Beast possessed Daredevil in Shadowland and gave him the power to defeat numerous other heroes. Earlier in Glimpse and Echo, it possessed a basketball player named Lyle, whom he also gave extra power (and whom Elektra defeated).

• The Hand has repeatedly resurrected characters, sometimes giving them superhuman stats in the process (as with Ghost Maker) and sometimes using mind control (as in the Wolverine Enemy of the State storyline).

• There have been various other psychic Hand, such as in Elektra 22 from 2003, the Blackmun solo series, or the Root of Evil miniseries, to give just a couple examples.

• The Chaste also have various powers, including Stick’s radar sense, Master Izo’s longevity, and Stone’s invulnerability. Also, Master Izo has confirmed that he can do sense-clouding.

Elektra herself has displayed a number of powers in 616, including:

Mind control of a number of Hand soon after she joined them (Root of Evil).

Being able to use chi energy to shatter stalactites and make them fall (Root of Evil).

Moving a roulette wheel ball into a different slot (Root of Evil).

• Psychic defenses at various points including against Jean Grey and Black Mamba.

• Making people unable to see her, or to implant false memories in them on multiple occasions (the 2001 Elektra volume; it is also a possible explanation for how she was able to take Punisher’s gun away from him without him noticing).

Being able to walk in the dimension of the dead, and speak with the dead (Glimpse and Echo).

• Engaging in psychic conversations, from extensive conversations with an absent Stick while in the middle of fighting (Shadowland: Elektra) to the recent “talk” she had with Daredevil in Defenders.

So the psychic feats Elektra shows in Assassin, including possession, illusion-making, and bullet-stopping, are fully within the realm of possibility of Hand magic/psychic/chi powers in general, and her highest canon psychic feats are approximately the same level as her Assassin feats. The question is the degree to which she uses them consistently, which I would generally attribute to the degree different writers are interested in her mystic side. I would phrase it this way: her use of specific psychic powers is not consistent, but her use of psychic powers in general is consistent. For example, she has only used the silent shout once, and has only telekinetically pulled down stalactites once; but she uses psychic powers in general pretty consistently from Assassin onwards (especially telepathy).


Overall, I have come to the conclusion that Elektra: Assassin is largely canon: the story in general took place, but individual events within it cannot be 100% confirmed. However, I think we can generally assume feats are largely accurate, with anything narrated by Garrett, especially toward the end, being the least reliable.


Analysis of the Portrayal of the Molecule Man's Costume, Face, and Character Across All His Appearances

*(update: posts are all complete)*


Welcome to my magnum opus!

I will be straight-up: this is a 60+ page Word document. I don’t really expect anyone to read from beginning to end. But if you are interested in the evolution of Molecule Man, or in the way comics use visuals to connect to character, then skip around read whatever parts you are interested in! And of course, I would welcome anyone to read the whole thing.

This is a complete history of the visual portrayal of Owen Reece, the Molecule Man, over the years, focusing in particular on the evolution of his costumes, the rendition of his face (in particular his nose and scarring), his body type, and his personality.

Now, you all probably best know this look of Reece’s, right?

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But, do you know all of these?

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That’s not even all of them! Reece has had numerous costume changes, big and small, over the years, and I’m going to give painstaking detail on all of them.

Hey, do you remember when the Molecule Man was a woman? A lizard? African-American? We’ll talk about all those too!

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I will also go on the occasional tangent about other issues of note as we go along. For instance, I’ll note times when Reece controlled organic molecules and energy prior to Secret Wars I, contrary to the general understanding and editorial statements to the effect that he could only affect organic molecules and energy after Doom lifted his mental blocks. (He actually manipulated energy and/or organics in every issue before Secret Wars I!)

So: This will itemize every appearance of the Molecule Man, including his standard 616 appearances, appearances within flashbacks (largely other characters recalling Secret Wars I and II) and imaginary sequences, appearances in alternate universes, and handbook entries. These are all issues I own myself, so if you have questions about anything, let me know.

These stories include:

• 6 stories pre-Secret Wars I

Secret Wars I & II, Avengers 266

• Cosmic Cube version: 13 appearances, although really only 9 actual stories, ending in Dark Avengers

• 6 appearances in New Avengers’ (vol. 3) run-up to Secret Wars 2015

Secret Wars 2015

• 3 appearances post Secret Wars 2015

• 22 flashbacks/imaginary sequences

• 12 handbook entries

• 17 alternate universes

I have also made three charts:

One noting the chronology of his appearances in real time, showing when he was used often and when he went without appearances for years

One breaking down much of the costume information below in chart form

One listing all the creative teams that have worked on his appearances, showing who has worked on multiple story arcs

Click the text links above to download full-size PDFs of each. Smaller JPGs below.

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Over time, I will add “Takeaways” entries in separate posts that analyze the information below.


Owen Reece, while generally identified with what I will call his “classic” costume—the Secret Wars I & II costume I showed at the top—has actually had several costume changes over his career.

Artists have also rendered his face, body, and posture quite differently, depending on whether he is being portrayed as a villain, hero, or schlub in a particular storyline.

Again, you’ve seen his normal face, and his “Molecule Man” face before:

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But we will see that the portrayal of his facial scars in particular is hugely inconsistent. Of course, every character has been drawn and written differently over the years, but as can be seen, his portrayals have changed quite radically from appearance to appearance, and these physical changes often track changes in his character. When he's more heroic, he's drawn more handsomely, and when he's a loser or evil, he's drawn differently to enhance those qualities. Just for instance, compare these two versions, one super-schlubby and the other drawn in the same style they’d use for Peter Parker:

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I will describe and analyze these various costumes and visual portrayals over the course of his history, going his appearances in chronological order, organized into four categories:

• Present-tense Earth-616 Appearances

• Earth-616 Flashbacks

• Alternate-universe Appearances

• Handbooks

For each entry, I will provide a brief summary of the issue, then describe his costume, his face, his body, and his personality. [Note: if you just want a list of all his appearances, download the chart of the creative teams. If you want a list of them via these categories, you can download the costume chart.]

Representative images from each issue will be included at the end of each issue's entry.

Finally, before I begin, I’d like to give a shout-out to Jim Shooter, who made Reece respectable in the ‘80s, and Jonathan Hickman, who brought him back to respectability after a long time in the wilderness in the last few years.


Fantastic Four 20 (first appearance)

November 1963

Writer: Stan Lee, Penciler: Jack Kirby, Inker: Dick Ayers.

Uatu the Watcher contacts the Fantastic Four about the danger posed by Reece. Reece is described by Uatu as being able to destroy universes. His origin is recounted, and he goes on a rampage. The Fantastic Four create feedback when he tries to control their bodies, since he cannot control organic molecules. He does, however, control electricity in this issue. Uatu transports him to another dimension.

His costume on the cover is slightly different from his costume in the interior, as noted below.

Interior Costume: Reece’s first costume is fairly close to his now “classic” costume—a sort of tunic or Mao jacket and pants with shoulder pauldron—but differs in various ways. It is mostly pure green, with light green belt (square buckle and vertical ribbed texture, which I will tend to refer to as cylinders, below), black bracers with green edges, and brown boots with light green tops. The clothes are loose, not skin-tight. His shoulder pauldron goes around and under his armpits, usually with something close to the “classic” lightning/zig zag pattern on the edges. His wand is black, thin, tapered at the end, and has no ornaments.

The biggest difference from his “classic” costume is the lack of purple.

Cover Costume: It has the same pauldron shape, but with a star-shaped light green shape around his collar. The bottom of the jacket has pockets. The boots are brown, with the top part light green and black right above them. He has a red wand.

Interior Face: His face is shown with varying numbers of scars, which cover his forehead and cheeks, from 2 to 5 per cheek, 3 to 10 on the forehead, and up to 3 on his chin. Both his upper and lower lips are usually scarred and shown as jagged lines. His hairline is sometimes shown as receding, or almost bald, but other times he has a full head of brown hair. He is not classically handsome (no strong cheek bones etc.), but his face is not otherwise of note.

Cover Face: Normal, with a tuft of brown hair on top; the sides look shaved. 5 scars on his forehead and 2 on each cheek, perhaps 3 on the chin. The lips are unscarred.

Interior Body: Reece has a standard human build that is not heavily muscled, nor unusually thin or overweight, which I will call “average” or “normal” from here on.

Cover Body: Average.

Interior Character: Reece is a maniac who wants to rule the world and get back at people for his terrible life. Generally speaking his physiognomy does not reflect his character as much here as it does in later issues.

Cover Character: Villainous.

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Marvel Two-in-One 1

January 1974

Writer: Steve Gerber, Penciler: Gil Kane, Inker: Joe Sinnott

After his first appearance, a dramatic change is made in the character: having been sent by Uatu to an alternate dimension, and apparently robbed of his powers, he dies of old age in the dimension’s sped-up time, and creates a “son” to live on in his place. The son recreates his “father’s” powers by recreating the original accident with his own advanced technology (consider what this means, given the post-Secret Wars origin of his powers from the Beyonders’ Cosmic Cube universe, and its intertwining with the original Beyonder’s power). The “son” seems to have its own personality, and in fact can create and manipulate organic molecules with no difficulty (the father fixed the organic molecule problem when he set up the machines to recreate the accident). He comes back to earth and goes on a rampage as well, until he is stopped by Thing and Man-Thing: when the “son” drops his wand, he ages super-quickly and dies. However, the original Molecule Man’s spirit and power is still in the wand. For unknown reasons, he did not tell his “son” about this; perhaps the son’s spirit and power was really a portion of his father’s spirit and power all along. I tend to believe that the “son" is really just an alternate personality of the father; for instance when Reece’s spirit is shown in Iron Man Annual 3, he has the same brawny, bald physical appearance as the son has here, as he also does in Fantastic Four 187-8, although technically that’s because he possessed a boxer who just happened to be bald and brawny. The idea that the bad, brawny son is really just an alternate personality of the father also makes sense given the much later idea that the bald muscular version seen in Fantastic Four Annual 27 and Incredible Hulk 441-2 is his “evil” side. Basically the argument is that Reece splits his self in half, and puts half of it in the son, which represents his more evil side. Then this side has ascendancy until he recreates himself in Avengers 215-6, at which point the physical re-creation of his original body perhaps brings back some of his original personality, and when he subsequently sees a therapist, he fully submerges the evil side of himself, as represented by the son. Much later, after going through the trial merging with the Cosmic Cube and then being ejected from it, his personality becomes less stable and the “evil” side is able to re-emerge a few times. Eventually it seems that this side is perhaps more fully integrated into him and he become unbalanced in general, but no longer split into good and evil, as seen in Dark Avengers 10-12 and the New Avengers/Secret Wars 2015 stories. (At least this is one explanation; Secret Wars 2015 has its own explanation for his mental imbalance.)

Note that Uatu says, in Secret Wars II, that he “reinforced the mental blocks which limited him” while in the other dimension, thus explaining why Reece had no powers there, and “confused his self-perceptions,” possibly explaining how he made a copy of himself without really knowing it.

For his next several appearances after this comic, people find the wand and are possessed by his spirit.

Father Costume: Green robe.

Son Costume: Light blue lightning-bolt-style pauldron on chest and back. No shirt, green speedo and no pants, green tight boots, and yellow bracers with four round studs. His costume for his next several appearances is based on this costume. His wand is red, with oblong shapes at each end. The oblongs have holes at the end, and have stripes around them. He briefly wears a purple hooded robe while in his original dimension.

Father Face: Bald. 4 scars on the forehead and 3 on each cheek. None on the chin. Both lips are scarred.

Son Face: Bald, with around 5 scars on his forehead and 3 on each cheek, and none on his chin. Both lips are zig-zags. The son has no scars (or powers) until after the “father” dies, and the “son” replicates the accident that gave the original his powers.

Father Body: Normal, frail.

Son Body: Highly muscular.

Father Character: Desirous of vengeance on the Fantastic Four.

Son Character: Hyper-aggressive, violent, and cruel. He can control organic molecules and uses them, for instance, to turn a normal human into having Mr. Fantastic-like powers. He then stretches the human until his body rips apart. He also changes Thing and Man-Thing into their normal human forms. His powers reside in his wand, and when the wand is taken away, he turns to dust, and his spirit goes into the wand. Uniquely, the son and the father are both apparently technological geniuses, having rebuilt an atomic reactor from scratch in order to recreate the accident.

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Iron Man Annual 3

July 1976

Writer: Steve Gerber, Penciler: Sal Buscema, Inker: Jack Abel

His spirit can now possess anyone who finds the wand: first a girl named Cynthia, then others.

The boy the Thing gave the wand to plays with it with his friends. A girl tries to grab it when it falls in the swamp, and drowns in a radioactive pool of water. Reece’s mind, in the wand, combines with the radioactivity, and is able to resurrect her and transform her into an adult weeks after her death. Angry with her parents over a rough upbringing, she attacks her mother, and then Iron Man gets involved. The Man-Thing later grabs the wand, and Reece’s spirit leaves the girl (who stays alive). A snake bites the wand, and Reece transforms it into a humanoid. Then Iron Man grabs it and Reece starts to control him, but then the Man-Thing grabs it again, and since it has no intelligence, Reece can’t possess it, and his spirit is trapped in the wand. The Man-Thing walks off with the wand.

It is notable that Reece is able to control organic molecules in multiple situations: he makes a mirror out of wood and water; he resurrects the girl’s body and then transforms it into an adult body; he turns a log into a bicycle; he turns her mother into a doll; he animates some skeletons; he transforms a snake into a snake-man. Multiple handbooks note that the “Son of” the Molecule Man from Marvel Two-in-One 1 was an exception from his normal pre-Secret Wars I inhibitions, and could control organic molecules, probably because the “Son” didn’t realize it was Reece, and thus was not held back by the original’s mental blocks. However, there is no explanation for why Reece, from this point on, could control organic molecules, since he no longer considers himself the “Son.” (There is no explanation for why he no longer thinks of himself as the Son.) It notes, at the end of the events of Marvel Two-in-One 1, that “at the instance before his ‘death’ [he] funneled his essence into his wand.” This caption is placed next to a picture of the Son dying, implying that the “Son of” Molecule Man is the same “spirit” as all the later incarnations of them. However, OHOTMU A-Z 7 says the original Reece channeled his spirit into the wand the instant before his death. So perhaps that is what the text meant.

Note that when inhabiting the girl Cynthia’s body, the narrator calls him the “Molecule Person.

The cover, interestingly, shows Reece largely looking like Cynthia, but male!

Costume, Cover: Green skintight suit with light green pauldron. Green gloves. No bracers.

Costume as Cynthia: After he takes over Cynthia, she has a full-body, skin-tight, all-green costume, with a light-green pauldron, “underwear,” and boots, and the yellow bracers, now with six bumps. The wand is like in Two-in-One 1: red with ovoid ends. However there are no lines on the wand.

Costume as His Mental Self-image: In scenes showing the battle between his spirit and Cynthia’s spirit, he is shown with his bald, muscular male body, as in Marvel Two-in-One 1, and a costume like Cynthia’s: skin-tight, all green with light green boots, underwear, and pauldron.

Costume as Snake-Man: As the humanoid snake, he wears the light green pauldron, underwear, boots, and the yellow bracers.

Costume as Iron Man: When he possesses Iron Man, his costume continues to look like Iron Man’s armor.

Costume, Cover: Male face with 4 forehead scars and 1 on each cheek. No lip scarring. Long blonde hair.

Face as Cynthia: Around 3 scars on her forehead and 3 on each cheek, and none on the chin. Her lips are both zig-zags. The scars are specifically described as “black lightning,” and the lips as “bear traps.”

Face as His Mental Self-image: In the psychic battle and similar scenes, he has 3 scars on his forehead and 2 on each cheek, with both lips scarred.

Face as Snake-Man: The lizard has 3 scars on the forehead and 2 on each cheek. No scarred lips.

Face as Iron Man: As Iron Man, his facial scars appear on the outside of the helmet! 3 on the forehead and 2 on each cheek, but no scarred lips.

Body, Cover: A decidedly male muscled body.

Body as Cynthia: As Cynthia, she has a standard female comic book body, although she is fairly heavily muscled.

Body as His Mental Self-image: Muscular, as in Marvel Two-in-One 1.

Body as Snake-Man: Muscular.

Body as Iron Man: Normal heroic Iron Man body.

Character: Psychotic and murderous, as reflected in his bald head and muscular body. It takes him a while to take over Cynthia, and until he does, her own emotions sometimes take over. The snake fully submits to him. He does not fully take over Iron Man.

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Fantastic Four 187-88

October-November 1977

Writer: Len Wein, Penciler: George Perez, Inker: Joe Sinnott

Klaw runs into the Man-Thing, who drops the wand. Klaw picks it up. Reece is unable to possess him due to his nature as living sound, so they travel to New York City where Reece possesses a boxer, who very coincidentally is bald and muscular, just as Reece appeared in Marvel Two-in-One 1 and Iron Man Annual 3. Reece wants to use Mr. Fantastic’s tech to permanently transfer his consciousness from the wand into his new body. After a battle with the Fantastic Four and the Impossible Man, he takes over Reed Richards’ body. Richards fights to keep him from control and remains partially aware. Uatu appears but only watches. Reece tries to kill the Fantastic Four with a major blast, but the unstable molecules in their costumes create a feedback that makes him drop the wand, reverting Richards’s to himself. (This is very similar to, but different from, what happens in Fantastic Four 20, where it is the heroes’ own molecules that causes the feedback.) The wand goes into a chimney.

Note that he turns the Thing to glass, once again controlling organic matter, but is unable to control the Impossible Man’s body because he controls his own molecules, the Invisible Woman’s forcefield because it is not made of molecules, or the Fantastic Four’s costumes made of unstable molecules.

Costume as the boxer and Reed Richards: In both cases, very similar to that in the psychic battle in Iron Man Annual 3: a green skin-tight suit with light green lightning-style pauldron, light green speedo, and light green boots, with yellow bracers with six bumps. There are two minor differences: a light green line delineating a belt on the speedo, and the tops of the boots are no longer straight lines, but have 3-5 jagged angles jutting upward in the front. The wand is the same as in the last two appearances, red with oblong ends. The wand connection to the oblongs is slightly more detailed, with a few ringed details.

Face, as the boxer: Bald, with 3-5 scars on the forehead and 2 on each cheek. 0 chin scars. Both lips are jagged.

Face, as Reed Richards: Richards’ normal face, with 3-5 forehead scars and 2-3 on each cheek. Both lips are jagged. 0 to 3 chin scars.

Body: Muscular in both forms (more obviously as the boxer).

Character: Still angry and aggressive. Fully in control as the boxer, partially in control as Richards.

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Micronauts 23 (vol. 1)

November 1980

Writer: Bill Mantlo, Penciler: Pat Broderick, Inker: Danny Bulanadi

Reece now possesses an African-American homeless man, who grabs the wand when it ends up in a junk yard. He battles the Micronauts and is eventually knocked out by falling electrical wires. He drops the wand into a river.

He is able to transform hubcaps into flowers, again showing the ability to control organic molecules, and also channels electricity from some wires (he is later struck by them and knocked out).

Costume: The same as the previous issue, albeit without the subtle belt line. The boots now have three jagged angles.

Face: Now African-American, he has 4 scars on the forehead and 2 on each cheek. His lips are normal, not jagged. In one image, the scars have more of width than the normal single line. On the cover only, they appear as two actual two-dimensional lightning bolt shapes that narrow to a point on the forehead, with one more on each cheek. The only other place this appears is New Avengers 33. He wears a short Afro. Interestingly, his face and body are all colored in a purple silhouette on the cover, so you can’t easily tell that he is African-American from the cover.

Body: Muscular, although perhaps not as much as before.

Character: Still a maniac, although perhaps slightly less so.

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Avengers 215-16

January-February 1982

Writer: Jim Shooter, Penciler: Alan Weiss, Inker: Dan Green

He recreates his original body by himself after his wands is picked up by the Surfer. He notes his inability to control organic molecules (this assertion is repeated multiple times in this arc), but it’s explained that he can make a new body for himself because it’s encoded in himself. He is able to disintegrate the Surfer’s board, Captain America’s shield, Thor’s hammer, and Iron Man’s suit, but when he recreates them, he is unable to recreate Iron Man’s armor because it is too complicated. It is interesting that Iron Man’s armor is more complicated than Mjolnir’s magic, one of few instances where he affects magic directly. He is also unable to make working plumbing in his base for the same reason.

Avengers 216 is the first issue where his name, Owen Reece, is revealed.

Costume: This is a step towards the “classic” costume, the first use of purple, and the first giant hat. He also returns to a lose-fitting tunic and pants. They are green, with a purple jagged design on the front and back of the bottom of the tunic. He wears purple gloves, with have a jagged edge design, and purple boots, which have a jagged design incised on the side. His pauldron is now seemingly thicker, with a simpler set of three jagged angles at the bottom. This connects to a cowl, featuring ear-pieces with antennae, and a giant hat, mostly blue with purple jagged panels. His wand, returning to the original black, tapered at one end and with no oblongs, can fit in the front of the hat, to stand up like an antennae. However, he now realizes he no longer needs the wand. He wears a belt with a square buckle. The belt is usually drawn plain, but occasionally has vertical ribs. He creates the hat to look more like Galactus, who he decides to act like. Also wears a blue business suit at the end.

(When he first recreates himself, he wears a slightly different costume: the pauldron is less jagged, he has bracers instead of gloves, and he has no hat.)

Face: Usually 4 forehead scars, 2 on each cheek, and 3 on the chin, with 2 on the space between the nose and lips. Sometimes the lips are jagged, sometimes they’re not. This is the most scarring he’s had since the beginning. His hair is slicked back and black, and his head is noticeably round in shape.

Body: Shorter, perhaps somewhat overweight, in any case decidedly non-heroic.

Character: Now much dweebier, he is a super-geek loser. Creepy sexual attraction to Tigra. Wants to destroy the world by eating it like Galactus, but loses interest in that. Ultimately is convinced by Tigra that he needs to see a therapist to overcome his personal problems. A big switch from the previous very masculine, aggressive persona of the last few appearances. More of a restoration of the original, but still dorkier than that.

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Secret Wars I, 1-12

May 1984-April 1985

Issues 1-3, 6-12: Writer: Jim Shooter, Penciler: Mike Zeck, Inker: John Beatty

Issues 4-5: Writer: Jim Shooter, Penciler: Bob Layton, Inker: John Beatty

After seeing his therapist for a while, he is still brought to Battleworld as part of the villains’ group.

He starts off trying to show off to the villains, but falls in love with Volcana and shows that he has been learning to be good from his therapist. His mental blocks are removed by Doom, and he gains his full power. He then helps the villains and the people of a suburb of Denver return to Earth, and feels much more at peace.

Although there are some differences in his appearance from issue to issue, I will treat the series as a whole and not individual issues.

Costume: The first appearance of his now “classic” costume: loose-fitting tunic and pants, purple bracers, purple belt with no buckle and vertical ribs, purple boots with flat tops, lightning-style pauldron. In this case, the pauldron does not end in a point, but has a flat bottom ending flush with the belt, with a vertical line dividing the right and left sides. No wand for the first time.

Face: Normal human face—not ugly or geeky, not alpha-male bald. Brown tousled hair. 5 forehead scars, 2 on the cheeks, both lips are normal.

Body: Normal human—not muscular, not skinny, not overweight. Sometimes with broad shoulders and a slightly more heroic build—usually more towards the end of the series, as he gains in confidence.

Character: Geeky and with low self-esteem, but in meeting Volcana he falls in love and begins to gain self-confidence. After Doom lifts his mental blocks, and can now control all matter and energy, he becomes much more at peace with his self.

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Secret Wars II, 1, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9

July, September, October, December 1985, January, February, March 1986

Writer: Jim Shooter, Penciler: Al Milgrom, Inker: Steve Leialoha

Reece meets the Beyonder, who has come to Earth. He tries to help him gain peace as he has himself. After Volcana pretends to leave him to trick the Beyonder into not hurting Reece, Reece is very hurt, but then finds even more solid peace with himself and a more mature love with her. Eventually he kills the Beyonder to save the universe.

Although there are some differences in his appearance from issue to issue, I will treat the series as a whole and not individual issues.

Costume: The continuation of his classic costume. No changes from Secret Wars I: loose fitting green tunic and pants, purple pauldron ending in a blunt end at the belt, purple belt with square buckle and vertical ribs, purple boots and bracers. He often appears now in normal clothes, such as a turtleneck sweater and pants, or in his janitor’s smock. The normal clothes are usually well-fitted.

Face: Usually 3-6 scars on his forehead, 1-3 on the cheeks, and 0-3 (usually 0) on the chin. It varies from panel to panel, let alone issue to issue. Usually, his upper lip is jagged, but not the bottom. His brown, sometimes reddish brown, hair sometimes has a bit of an tousled uplift in the back—a slightly swankier looking haircut. His face usually looks pretty angular, and is probably his most handsome.

Body: Normal body. Looks trim.

Character: Calm, at ease, enlightened. Has a fall-out with Volcana, which is healed, bringing them to true love. Acts as a mentor to the Beyonder before killing him. Is shown as being his most handsome when he is most confident and heroic.

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Avengers 266

April 1986

Writer: Roger Stern, Penciler: John Buscema, Inker: Tom Palmer

Epilogue to Secret Wars II. Reece heroically saves the Earth, and pretends to lose his powers.

Costume: Doesn’t wear a costume, wears normal clothes. On the cover, he wears his classic costume, with the pauldron only going halfway down his chest, a belt with cylinders and no buckle, and green cuffs.

Face: Starts off normal, with 2 to 6 scars on forehead and 1 to 2 each cheek. Both lips are jagged. Hair is brown and tousled like in Secret Wars II. Then he seems to lose his powers and his nose becomes rounded and more protuberant, his hair more generic, and he loses his scars. His eyes are even more rounded, and he gains eyebrows. Then he returns to his normal form, getting the scars, pointier nose, no eyebrows, more slitted eyes, and jauntier hair. (Note: he has eyebrows in Secret Wars I & II.)

Body: Normal.

Character: Possibly his most heroic. He seems to sacrifice his powers to save the Earth, although actually he does retain his powers. The switch from his somewhat geekier looking “normal” self to his more handsome “powered” self is pretty overt and shows how he seemingly either intentionally changes his body to fit his self-image, or does so subconsciously. It’s possible that the more rounded-nose version is what he looked like before the accident, given his appearance in flashbacks before his accident.

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Fantastic Four 318-319

September-October 1988

Writer: Steve Englehart, Penciler: Keith Pollard, Inker: Joe Sinnott

Reece appears for the first time after his most powerful appearances (in Secret Wars II), only to have the origin of his power retconned into being created at the same time as the Beyonder, from a pocket universe meant to power a Cosmic Cube, which was in turn created by the Beyonders.

Note that when Doom blasts Reece into unconsciousness, it seems to make him less powerful than the way he is presented in Secret Wars II, showing that his body is still vulnerable to standard attacks, but simultaneously shows that the power is always working in the background, since it saved him from dying on its own, giving it a semi-sentience.

Costume: Starts with normal clothes (button up shirt, pants, dress shoes, jacket), switches to his “classic” costume. The purple pauldron doesn’t reach his belt, which is made of large squares. He has purple boots and bracelets. The costume is somewhat loose/baggy on him.

Face: Somewhat skinny, big hooked nose. 2 to 4 scars on the forehead, 1 or 2 on each cheek (different in different panels, even though close up), lips are unscarred. When he is walking around in public with Martha before Doom attacks, he has covered up/erased his scars; however, they show up when he’s unconscious. Tousled hair.

Body: Somewhat skinny. A bit dweebish or weak-looking, especially after he gets in costume, but not completely consistently. Significantly shorter than Martha—more of a height difference than in Secret Wars I & II and Avengers 266.

Character: Kind of nerdy, but not weak. Especially once he realizes what’s going on with the Beyonder, he is confident and philosophical, willing to fight for what’s right, and accepting of the change of his origin.

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Fantastic Four Annual 23

August 1990

Writer: Len Kaminski, Penciler: Greg Capullo, Inker: Larry Mahlstedt

Reece’s life-force is sent out of the Cube, back towards Earth. A flashback is also shown, see Flashbacks below.

Appearance: In the present-time panels, Reece appears only as the Cosmic Cube, and then as a bolt of pure orange energy shooting out of the Cube. See Flashbacks for his other appearance in this issue.

Costume/Face/BodyCharacter: N/A

No Caption Provided

Fantastic Four Annual 24

July 1991

Writer and Pencils: James Brock, Jr., Inkers: Jeff Albrecht and Tim Dzon

Reece describes how he split off from the Cosmic Cube and flew back to Earth as energy.

He appears both in normal clothes and in new armor.

He gets his powers back (which he had hidden within Marsha) and wears a suit of armor inspired by, but different from, his “classic” costume. This is the only time he wears this armor. He has a broken arm at the end, since he can no longer affect organic molecules (this time, the limitation is attributed to organic molecules being too complex, as opposed to having a mental block).

Costume: Green pants and tunic. His boots are purple and somewhat looser-fitting than usual. He has purple bracers and belt; the belt has cylinders and a square buckle. The pauldron is technological-looking; it is made of various plates and much more like metal than his normal pauldron; it is also missing the lightning bolts. It does not go all the way to the belt. His helmet is open on top and on the face; it has two “horns” or spikes on the sides. It is relatively “cool” looking—it’s not as absurd and ego-compensating as some of his later helmet-wearing silly costumes.

Face: His nose is larger and clearly not a “bold, superhero” nose, but he does not look nerdy. He is unshaven. His hair is relatively long. When he comes back after the fight, his hair is shorter and he is shaven, looking more kempt. No jagged lips. While wearing the helmet, his forehead is not visible, but his scars return on his cheeks, 2 on each side.

Body: He has a normal body, not being skinny, paunchy, or muscled. He is again much shorter than Marsha.

Character: He goes back and forth. He starts off being very unconfident and worried that Marhsa wouldn’t want him back without his powers, but gets confident again after getting his powers back—which, very uncharacteristically, he had hidden in Marsha without telling her. When she dumps him, he is crestfallen. This issue is a turning point in their relationship, inconsistently throwing out their time-tested trust and instead making him seem manipulative and untrusting of her (and for that matter she is not very forgiving of him, either).

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Fantastic Four 372-373

January-February 1993

Writers: Tom DeFalco and Paul Ryan, Penciler: Paul Ryan, Inker: Dan Bulandi

Reece starts by pining absurdly for Marsha. He now lives in a self-created futuristic-looking home outside Denver, where he has made multiple statues of Marsha. He is then mind-controlled by the Puppet Master and fights Aron the Watcher. He is still unable to control organic molecules.

Interestingly, the Puppet Master’s statue of Reece shows him wearing his classic costume, which is not what he actually wears here (or in his last appearance). The statue also makes him look much more respectable and less nerdy looking in his posture and body.

Costume: The first of his absurd helmets since Avengers 215-216. This is the basis for his next several costumes. He has tight green pants, like spandex, and unusually they run over his feet and act as foot coverings, instead of him having boots. The “skirt” part of the jacket is unusually split in the front. The purple lightning bolts on the chest appear to be part of the shirt, and are connected with a purple band across his neckline. They dip below his belt, forming a tetrahedral shape below the belt. His belt is unusually more of a fabric wrap. He has purple gauntlets, with metal rings. He has a purple cape, which is a first. His helmet is chrome, and runs from two large shoulder pads through a neck piece to three swooping metal pieces that end in a purple circle on his forehead.

Face: He is explicitly nerdy-looking, with a large hooked nose. He usually has 1 scar on each cheek, and 4 on his forehead. No jagged lips. His hair is a bit wavy but not really tousled.

Body: He is skinny.

Character: This continues the turning point from Fantastic Four Annual 24. Reece now makes a full turn into patheticness and absurdity, similar to his early days, like Avengers 215-6, but without the anger. He seems divorced from understanding emotional reality.

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Fantastic Four Annual 27

May 1994

Writer: Len Kaminski, Penciler: Mike Gustovich, Inker: Don Hudson

Reece, still dealing with the fallout of his breakup with Volcana, starts off normal, then goes insane, turns into the bald muscled version seen in the early days of Marvel Two-in-One 1 through Fantastic Four 187-8, and ends up fighting the Beyonder-persona that evolved from the Cube. In both personas, he can control organic molecules again, and for the first time, is shown to be more powerful than the Beyonder.

Costume: He first appears in normal, respectable working-person clothes. His costume has tight green pants and a green shirt with baggy arms. The “skirt” is open in the front to show a purple metal codpiece. He has green “shoes” with purple metal calf armor. He has purple metal bracers. His cape connects at the shoulder and weirdly goes under the armpit to connect from the front as well. He has a metal purple belt divided into two horizontal strips, which dips down in the front. His chest has a purple jagged design that is part of the shirt which uniquely is one piece, not two separate lightning shapes coming together. He has a large chrome helmet that is attached to the shoulder pads again, but in a different form than in Fantastic Four 372-3. It is jagged around the head.

Face: As his normal self, he has a skinny face with a large hooked nose, but while he looks decidedly like a normal person and not a heroic face, he does not look particularly nerdy. He essentially looks like a specific (non-archetypical) and non-heroic person. He has 1 scar on each cheek and 2 on his forehead. His hair is combed and parted in the middle. As the “evil” self, his face is notably rounder and has 1 scar on each cheek, 3 on his forehead, and has the jagged lips for the first time since Avengers 266. The scars are much more distinct than usual—they have width, and are darker pink than the rest of his skin, instead of just being black lines.

Body: As a normal person, he is trim and short. As the “evil” version, he is taller and muscled.

Character: As a normal person, he starts off despondent about Marsha. He then goes into a rage as the “evil,” insane version of himself, similar to the Son of Molecule Man/villain who possessed people through his wand, full of arrogance and aggression. He then reverts to himself and has learned a lesson in love and humility, and seems to have once again found some measure of self-respect for the first time since returning from the Cube (unfortunately this only lasts for this issue). His transformation into an evil version, who is said to be repressed under his normal self, becomes a minor theme after this (it is seen again in Incredible Hulk 441-2), and to a certain degree tries to resolve the problem of the different physical forms and personalities he has had in the past. However, in the past it wasn’t shown to be a completely different personality (other than in Marvel Two-in-One 1), just one he slowly modified through therapy. Similarly, the last time he had the crazy muscled bald persona/body was in Fantastic Four 187-8, when he coincidentally possessed the body of a bald boxer; since the time when he finally his own body instead of just possessing someone else’s (Avengers 215-6), he has just had a normal body with hair.

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Avengers Unplugged 4

April 1996

Writer: Glenn Herdling, Penciler: John Statema, Inker: Scott Koblish

Absorbing Man and Titania hold a wedding with many villains in attendance. Volcana, as a childhood friend of Titania, is there, as is Reece, but they did not arrive as a couple.

Costume: He is only shown in normal clothes: a shirt, tie, and jacket.

Face: Skinny, and a mostly normal nose. He has 5 scars on his forehead and 2 on each cheek. His lips are unscarred. Based purely on his face, he looks pretty “normal” and not nerdy. His hair somewhat stands on end.

Body: Skinny.

Character: He is first shown picking his nose and wearing an “I hate everybody” yellow pin. The entire issue is somewhat of a parody/comedy issue, and Reece here is certainly the epitome of his pathetic “nerdy/outcast” persona—perhaps only to be matched in his next appearance the following month in Incredible Hulk. He has lost whatever dignity he seemed to reclaim in Fantastic Four Annual 27. When he runs into Marsha, she has turned into her plasma form and burned off all her clothes. She greets him with an enthusiastic “My Dinky Winky!” but he only turns away and hands her his jacket, asking her to cover herself. (Even though normally her clothes are not burned, and she wears a pink bathing suit for a costume.) He says, “Don’t expect a smile from the man you drove out of your life months ago.” She realizes that their separation has affected him strongly, seemingly more than it did to her, and second-guesses her enthusiastic greeting. This is the second-to-last time we shall see her response to their relationship. (I don’t describe it here, but she does have a few appearances in comics without him, where she tries to get on with her life).

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Incredible Hulk 441-442

May-June 1996

Writer: Peter David, Penciler: Angel Medina, Inker: Robin Riggs

Reece has gone insane once again, with the bald persona now acting essentially as a secondary personality. However, he seems to be able to switch back and forth to his primary, dweebish, personality at will. In issue 441, we only see shadow monsters that he created, which capture Doc Samson. In 442, the bald persona interrogates Samson, asking him for counseling about his relationship with Marsha. She-Hulk shows up and Reece turns back into his “normal” self, thinking for an instant that she’s Marsha. He is unstable, and starts switching back and forth, before finally taking Samson’s advice about trying to pull himself together. He decides he needs to win Marsha back, and then walks off and add Marsha’s face to Mount Rushmore. (No mention is ever made of her face being removed.)

Costume, Evil clothes: Casual Hawaiian shirt and tan pants

Costume, Evil costume: Variant on his “classic” costume, with a larger-than-normal trapezoidal buckle, the cylinder belt texture, the pauldron reaching his belt, and metal-looking purple bracers. The green clothes are tight and show off his muscles. He also briefly shifts into a pure energy form.

Costume, Good clothes: Casual Hawaiian shirt and tan pants

Costume, Good costume: Variant on classic costume, this time with a normal-sized buckle, looser clothes, less-metal-looking bracers, and a limper-looking pauldron. The left and right sides of the pauldron don’t quite meet: there is a thin vertical green line between the two parts.

Face, Evil clothes: Strong-faced, tough-looking guy. He has 2 scars on each cheek and 5 on the forehead, and his lip is not scarred.

Face, Evil costume: Strong-faced, tough-looking guy. He has 2 scars on each cheek and 5 on the forehead, and his lip is not scarred.

Face, Good clothes: Somewhat longish, combed back hair. His face looks significantly less strong and more cartoonishly dweebish, with a large nose and weaker cheekbones. He now has 6 scars on his forehead, 2 on the cheeks, and unscarred lips.

Face, Good costume: Somewhat longish, combed back hair. His face looks significantly less strong and more cartoonishly dweebish, with a large nose and weaker cheekbones. He now has 6 scars on his forehead, 2 on the cheeks, and unscarred lips.

Body, Evil clothes: Standard build—not skinny, not muscular, but a bit tough-looking.

Body, Evil costume: Extremely muscular, to an absurd degree

Body, Good clothes: Much shorter and slighter

Body, Good costume: Significantly shorter, almost dwarf-like. This marks the epitome of his trend towards being portrayed as physically slight, starting with his proportionally smaller size than Volcana in Fantastic Four 318-9. (Volcana is in fact much taller than Reece, 6’5” to 5’7”, but originally the size difference was not portrayed as being so great.)

Character, Evil clothes: Angry and clearly somewhat delusional, but also somewhat in control of himself.

Character, Evil costume: Melodramatic maniac, akin to in Fantastic Four Annual 27.

Character, Good clothes and costume: Extremely pathetic, lonely, and unsure of himself, and almost a complete idiot. He misunderstands advice from Samson in a way that no adult human would, essentially acting like a buffoon—dramatically stupider than in Secret Wars II or Fantastic Four 318-9, or even Fantastic Four Annual 27. The fact that he puts Marsha’s face on Mount Rushmore is obviously completely insane. (Marsha, in her last documented commentary on their relationship, says, “Ohh, Owen…what have you done now?”) He does specifically call his bald self “an alternative personality problem,” thus continuing the approach that started in Fantastic Four Annual 27 in which the bald self is a separate personality that he’s trying to repress, as opposed to the original interpretation, where he was just evil in general, and eventually learned to be a better person through therapy. This issue, and the Avengers Unplugged appearance immediately before it, are the low point in the way he is presented by the writers and artists: i.e., absolutely without respect.

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New Avengers 1

January 2005

Writer: Brian Michael Bendis, Penciler: David Finch, Inker: Danny Miki

When Electro breaks all the prisoners out of the Raft, Molecule Man is one of them. He only appears in a crowd scene. His original capture and placement on the Raft was not shown on panel anywhere; the New Avengers Most Wanted Files say he was apprehended during a moment of mental instability, obviously some time after Incredible Hulk 442, which was nine years previous to this issue.

Costume: Prison uniform.

Face: Nerdy face with a big nose, and slicked-back hair. No scars, which is interesting because normally that’s a sign that he’s using his powers to cover them up, or in unpowered, as last seen in Fantastic Four Annual 24.

Body: Average body type.

Character: Just standing there, but his expression looks beaten down and sad; he does not look particularly proactive.

No Caption Provided

New Avengers 4

April 2005

Writer: Brian Michael Bendis, Penciler: David Finch, Inker: Danny Miki (although the actual image of Reece is by Keith Pollard and Josef Rubenstein)

He only appears on an Avengers video screen of the characters that escaped.

Costume: He is wearing the costume from Fantastic Four 372-3 (1993), using a drawing from the OHOTMU Master Edition 31 (1993) handbook. This same drawing is soon reprinted in the New Avengers Most Wanted Files handbook (December 2005).

Face: It’s not easy to see in the video screen image, but the full-scale handbook drawing has a distinctly nerdy face, skinny and with a large nose and big ears, with 2 scars on the forehead and 1 on each cheek. The lips are unscarred.

Body: Slightly skinny.

Character: Not apparent, but looks kind of harmless.

No Caption Provided

Spider-man: Breakout 1

June 2005

Writer: Tony Bedard, Penciler: Manuel Garcia, Inker: Raul Fernandez

A wiki lists this as being an appearance of Reece, but I am not totally convinced that he actually appears here. There are three images that MIGHT be of Reece. The character in question has no scars, but in New Avengers 1, Reece is shown without scars, so it’s possible that it’s him.

Costume: Prison uniform.

Face: Thin, a bit haggard and/or conniving, with hair: long and parted in the middle and hanging in front of his forehead in the first panel, short and somewhat standing up in the second, short and hanging down in the third. Otherwise unremarkable.

Body: Normal.

Character: In the first panel, he holds Spider-man’s mask as Jigsaw grabs Peter. In the second panel, he is hit in the face by Captain America’s shield. In the third panel, he is vomiting or dripping blood from his mouth and nose. Beyond questions of whether any of these are Reece or not, the character in the first panel may not be the same as the character in the second and third panels, who seem to have somewhat shorter hair.

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Fantastic Four Foes 1 (mentioned), 5

March, July 2005

Writer: Robert Kirkman, Penciler and Inker: Cliff Rathburn

In issue 1, the Thinker and Puppet Master gather a number of villains together for a meeting to discuss defeating the Fantastic Four. None of them agree to join, but the Thinker and Puppet Master collect all of their genetic information while they’re there, which they plan to have the Puppet Master use to control the villains (instead of his standard clay statues). Later, Reed Richards mentions that Reece was among those whose information had been collected, although he is not shown in the picture of the villains when they are assembled. This takes place soon after the Raft breakout; seemingly Reece was at least considering a villainous career again.

In issue 5, the Fantastic Four use the Thinker’s information to track down many of the villains and put them in a new super-prison in the Negative Zone. Reece is one of those who are captured; as with many of the others, this is shown in a single panel. It is unknown how he was defeated, but the presence of his wand (see below) indicates that he was in a highly unstable mindset.

In issue 6, a few of the villains escape the new Negative Zone Vault; it is unknown whether Reece is among them.

Costume: Only his upper body is shown, but it seems to be his classic costume, with three exceptions that are all more similar to his appearance in Avengers 215-6: his pauldron goes all the way to the neck, with no green collar; he wears purple gloves and no bracers; and he carries a wand, which he hasn’t used since Avengers 216, and has not carried again since this issue. This wand is significantly different in appearance than any previous versions, being much shorter, grey, and being the same width for its whole length with no oblong shapes at the tips. It has a line demarcating the top end, somewhat like a classic magician’s wand.

Face: Normal, with hair tousled and slicked back. He seems to have 2 scars on the forehead and 1 on each cheek, which are more organically jagged and less like a classic lightning bolt. No lip scarring.

Body: Mostly not visible, but seemingly normal.

Character: Seemingly villainous.

Note: in pics below, one shows the assembled villains without Reece in issue 1, another shows the time Richards mentions him in issue 1.

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Secret Invasion 1

June 2008

Writer: Brian Michael Bendis, Penciler: Leinil Francis Yu, Inker: Mark Morales

If Reece escaped the Negative Zone Vault at the end of Fantastic Four Foes, then he was apparently recaptured off-panel and returned to the Raft. If he did not escape the Negative Zone Vault, perhaps it was closed; in any case he was apparently transferred to the Raft.

A guard walking through the Raft counts off the prisoners, including Molecule Man. Reece is only mentioned, not seen. The Raft is then hit by a Skrull technology virus and many of the prisoners escape, including Reece (off panel).

Costume: Not seen, but presumably a prison uniform.

Face: Not seen.

Body: Not seen.

Character: Not seen.

No Caption Provided

Dark Avengers 10-12

December 2009-February 2010

Writer: Brian Michael Bendis, Artists: Mike Deodado (drawn pages) and Greg Horn (painted pages on 11 and 12)

This is Reece’s first appearance as a major character in a storyline since Incredible Hulk 441-2, thirteen years beforehand. After escaping the Raft a second time (the first in New Avengers 1, the second in Secret Invasion 1), he went to the town of Dinosaur, Colorado, where he was born. He hides out, but is insane, and makes everyone in town disappear. The Dark Avengers get wind of this and come to deal with him. He defeats them easily, but in the process, Sentry learns that the basis for his own powers is also in molecular manipulation, and defeats the insane Reece, either by temporarily disintegrating him, or teleporting him away somewhere. See here for a detailed breakdown on how Sentry could have overpowered Molecule Man.

In some scenes with Sentry, he appears in painted artwork, with a different costume. These are noted below.

Drawn costume: A variant on his classic costume, which has now carried on to some future issues. The jagged points of the pauldron now go down, instead of sideways, and the inside of the pauldron is a v-neck, instead of more zig-zags. The pauldron goes partway down his chest. His belt is now replaced by a lightning-style design around his waist. He doesn’t have gauntlets.

Painted costume: The belt looks a bit more like the belt in Fantastic Four 372-3 and Fantastic Four Annual 27. The pauldron is also similar to their design, with a somewhat more right-angled, rather than zig-zag, edge. It appears to be metal rather than fabric. He has purple bracers.

Drawn face: Thin, almost handsome and intelligent-looking. Most similar to his Secret Wars II face. No lip scarring. 2 scars on each cheek, and 4 on the forehead. Hair stands on end in highly-tousled wisps.

Painted face: The same, but with 2 scars on the forehead and 1 on each cheek.

Drawn body: average, perhaps a little skinny.

Painted body: More muscular.

Drawn and painted character: Insane and emotionally wounded. Highly desirous of being left alone, and feeling emotionally vulnerable. Does not have villainous or aggressive intentions, except in defense of his solitude. Seems unaware of the fact that he has been killing people. Would have liked to be friends with Sentry, who he sees as a kindred spirit. He has, strangely, created versions of the Beyonder, Ghost Rider, Enchantress, and Mephisto to act as alter egos and friends (this is especially odd since he has never met Ghost Rider before, and didn’t interact with Enchantress much during Secret Wars I), and seems to live with them in a hell-like pocket dimension inside one of the town’s buildings. The hell-like dimension indicates the deep-set negative feelings Reece has about himself. All together, this is Reece at his most deluded and insane—usually when he was insane in the past, he was psychotic, and a megalomaniac, with some delusions about Marsha’s love for him. Here, he is deluded about the nature of reality, creating imaginary friends, and unaware of his own actions, in a deep but non-psychotic way.

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New Avengers (vol. 3): Contrary to how I dealt with Secret Wars I & II, I will deal with all his appearances in this issue individually, because the various artists that worked on it each gave him their own visual treatment.

New Avengers 24

November 2014

Writer: Jonathan Hickman, Penciler and Inker: Valerio Schiti

Reece is shown in only one panel. Somehow, he has returned, or been found, after his fight with Sentry. Doom is using him to work out a plan regarding the Incursions.

Costume: Pretty close to his classic. He has a slight collar, and green cuffs rather than bracers. The belt has large square shapes instead of tubular shapes. The biggest variation is the boots, which have a more obviously pieced-together construction, with a piece riveted on the front and holding the two sides together.

Face: Normal, thin-ish. Similar to Secret Wars II. His hair is tousled in that era’s fashion. No lip scar. 4 scars on the forehead and 2 on each cheek. His eyes are white while using his power.

Body: Average.

Character: Unknown, but seemingly serious and focused.

No Caption Provided

New Avengers 26

January 2015

Writer: Jonathan Hickman, Penciler and Inker: Kevin Walker

Doom and the Mad Thinker talk with Reece about the Incursions. He alludes to the gradual killing of Molecule Men from other dimensions

Costume: As in New Avengers 24.

Face: Thin, a somewhat hooked nose, unusually large teeth in a gritted, insane expression, and wide eyes. 2 scars on each cheek and 4 on the forehead. No lip scarring. His hair is on end.

Body: Average.

Character: He chatters as if insane. He desires to help the universe.

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New Avengers 27

January 2015

Writer: Jonathan Hickman, Penciler and Inker: Szymon Kudranski

Doom and Reece discuss how Reece’s power has a similar energy signature to a rock from a world destroyed by an Incursion. Reece teleports himself and Doom away.

Costume: Somewhat different from in New Avengers 25 and 26. The pauldron is similar in the front, and reaches to his belt, but uniquely, the back is different from the front, and only goes halfway down his back. His belt’s nodules are about halfway between the squares of issue 25 and the normal cylinders. He has purple bracers, or perhaps just cuffs. The boots are not shown in detail but seem to lack the details of issues 25 and 26. Most interestingly, he has created (or found) a copy of Dr. Doom’s iron mask, which he wears in front of his face, lifting it up briefly. It is unclear why he wears it, other than to annoy Doom.

Face: A bit pudgy. His nose is protuberant. He has 2 scars on each cheek, 4 on the forehead, and no lip scars. His hair is on end.

Body: Perhaps slightly pudgy.

Character: He is insane and his conversation bounces around, but is also knowledgable and wise, telling Doom details about what’s going on in the multiverse and how people understand the world.

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New Avengers 29

March 2015

Writer: Jonathan Hickman, Penciler and Inker: Kevin Walker

Reece has teleported himself and Doom into an empty space, perhaps the Beyond Realm. Reece says this is where it all started, and that he used to live here. He says he can take Doom, but that while he can show him the way, Doom needs to open the door. Doom magically creates a machine that creates a dimensional opening, and they follow it.

Costume: Largely his classic costume, including purple gauntlets. The pauldron goes halfway down his chest and back. The belt is not well-seen, but seems to have wide cylinders. The boots are not seen clearly.

Face: Thin, with wide eyes. 2 scars on each cheek, and 4 on the forehead, with no lip scarring. He strangely has purple eyes. His hair stands up on end.

Body: Somewhat thin.

Character: He seems to still be insane, given his dialog’s mysteriousness and lack of clarity, but he also seems to know what he’s talking about, and Doom respects and trusts him.

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New Avengers 31

May 2015

Writer: Jonathan Hickman, Penciler and Inker: Kevin Walker

Doom introduces Dr. Strange to Reece, who is helping Doom. Doom calls him a disciple and an oracle for the times.

Costume: Basically his classic costume. He has no cuffs or gauntlets. His pauldron, unusually, does not rest on his shoulders, but curves up above them.

Face: Thin, with a large hooked nose. 2 scars on each cheek and 4 on the forehead, with no lip scarring. His hair stands on end.

Body: Somewhat thin.

Character: Still rambling, but clearly aware of what is going on cosmically, and keeping an eye on things.

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New Avengers 33

June 2015

Writer: Jonathan Hickman, Penciler and Inker: Mike Deodato

Doom and Reece explain to Dr. Strange what they’ve been doing. Reece was created by the Beyonders to self-destruct after 25 years, taking his universe with it. Moreover, the Molecule Man is the same in every parallel dimension (this is contradicted by his many actual appearances in parallel universes), so when each of him goes off, the entire multiverse will be destroyed. We learn that in issue 29, Reece was taking Doom back in time to when one of those parallel Reeces gained his power. Then 616 Reece kills his other self. He tells Doom that Doom must now do this to all the other Molecule Men across the multiverse. Doom attempts this but is not able to kill enough for their purposes. In the present, Doom, Strange, and Reece attack the Beyonders with a strange device, and a great flash of light goes off.

Costume: The same costume as he wore in Dark Avengers—which was also drawn by Deodato. All the Molecule Men seen to be killed in alternate dimensions have the same costume. In the last panel, but no other, his cauldron’s fabric has a surface pattern of lightning bolt designs.

Face: Thin, with a fairly normal nose. His hair is on end. Interestingly, his scars look like the same 2 scars on each cheek and 4 on the forehead that he has had recently, but on further examination, they are actually 1 single lightning bolt on each cheek, and 2 on the forehead, but each lightning bolt is drawn with two edges, and ending at a point—so the bolt is two dimensional, not just a single line. The only other time the scars are illustrated this way is on the cover of Micronauts 23. In the last panel, there are now 3 two-dimensional lightning bolts on his forehead and 2 on each cheek. No lip scarring.

Body: Thin. When the alternate Reece is shown at his origins without a shirt, he is shown to have very defined, fit muscles—but he is still thin, not bulky like he was in, for instance, Marvel Two-in-One 1 or Fantastic Four Annual 27.

Character: When Reece brings Doom back in time and explains his mission, Doom notes that he has lost his “psychotic wildness…the hysterical chatter.” Reece explains that his insanity came from his slow progression to his “terminal state,” i.e. the time when he would explode. The closer he got to that time, the more unreliable and fractured he would be. This explains his increasing insanity over the character’s arc. He is presumably sane when explaining the problem because he is back at his time of origin, and thus reversed his mental regression. He says that his selves have a single, shared consciousness, so presumably he now cares the consciousness of that origin era. Reece is also quite aware of the multiversal situation, and willing to sacrifice his self to save the universe: his morals have returned along with his sanity. Back in the present, he is once again raving but intent on helping.

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Secret Wars 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9

As with New Avengers, I will deal with many of these issues separately, since his costume appears in differently in some of the issues.

Secret Wars 1

July 2015

Writer: Jonathan Hickman, Penciler and Inker: Esad Ribic

The scene from New Avengers 33, where Doom, Strange, and Reece confront the Beyonders, is shown again, but this time Reece wears a different costume.

Costume: Only the waist-up is seen. His chest and pauldron are quite different: the purple lightning bolts on his chest end at shoulder pads that have no zig-zag pattern, and instead simply lay flat on the shoulder and rise at a 90-degree angle to wrap around his neck.

Face: Normal. Seen from too far away to see the scarring. His hair is tousled, not really standing on end as it was in New Avengers.

Body: Normal.

Character: Silently stands by Doom.

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Secret Wars 3, 8

August 2015, February 2016

Writer: Jonathan Hickman, Penciler and Inker: Esad Ribic

We see that Doom has erected a statue in respect of Reece outside Doom’s castle. The following refers to the statue.

Costume: Classic costume, but all in grey stone. The belt has cylinders. The pauldron reaches to the belt. He probably has defined cloth cuffs rather than hard gauntlets.

Face: Normal. Strangely, no scarring is visible. His hair is tousled.

Body: Normal.

Character: The statue was created, and is posed, to show Reece in a respectful, heroic manner.

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Secret Wars 4

September 2015

Writer: Jonathan Hickman, Penciler and Inker: Esad Ribic

The scene where Doom, Strange, and Reece confronted the Beyonoders is again shown. We se them from behind and from a distance, and very little can be seen of him.

Costume: Unknown, presumably as in issue 1.

Face: Unknown.

Body: Normal.

Character: Just standing there.

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Secret Wars 5

October 2015

Writer: Jonathan Hickman, Penciler and Inker: Esad Ribic

The Molecule Man statue is seen again, and looks the same as before.

Doom also goes to a chamber below the statue, where the Molecule Man resides, alive, in an all-white space, hovering upside-down. They discuss how the universe was saved: when they realized they couldn’t kill enough Molecule Men, they decided to get them all in a group, and set them all off at once in the Beyonders’ faces, destroying them and absorbing their power. He also states, contrary to New Avengers 33, that his insanity is due to the killing of the Molecule Men—that the more of them that died, the less his mind held together.

Costume: Pretty close to his classic costume. However, he has a collar, and the part of his shirt between the pauldron opening seems as if it may be attached to the pauldron, rather than having the pauldron just sitting on top of the shirt. The pauldron reaches the belt. The belt has cylinders. Despite the fact that the parallel-universe Molecule Men in New Avengers 33 were all shown with the Deodato version of his costume, here they are shown with the costume he wears here.

Face: Thin. Somewhat hooked nose, but not geeky; with his somewhat maniacal expression, he looks more insane and intelligently dangerous than dorky. The scars are not so much of a classic lightning bolt as scraggly lines: 1 on each cheek and 2 on the forehead. No lip scarring. Hair is tousled.

Body: Normal.

Character: Insane, but wily and intelligent. Very desirous of something to eat, and matches Doom in a back and forth of conversation.

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Secret Wars 6

December 2015

Writer: Jonathan Hickman, Penciler and Inker: Esad Ribic

The statue is seen again, and looks the same. Peter Parker and Miles Morales visit Reece’s space under the statue, and give him a cheeseburger. Reece reveals that he is the source of Doom’s power.

Costume: From this vantage point, it looks like the green space between the purple lightning shapes of his pauldron is connected to the purple lightning shapes; the whole thing sits on top of his shirt. It may also have a collar, as Reece does in issue 5. Reece’s actual costume is the same as issue 5. His cuffs seem to be fabric rather than hard gauntlets; their color isn’t clear here.

Face: As in issue 5.

Body: As in issue 5.

Character: As in issue 5, but once he eats the hamburger, his mind and speech is more collected and sane.

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Secret Wars 9

March 2016

Writer: Jonathan Hickman, Penciler and Inker: Esad Ribic

Reed Richards and Ultimate Reed Richards go to Reece’s underground space. Reece asks for something to eat. Ultimate Reed attacks 616 Reed; Reece cuts Ultimate Reed into horizontal slices (and, we later learn, sends those slices to different universes). 616 Reed then tries to convince Reece to turn on Doom. Doom shows up. He tries to use the Beyonders’ power against Richards, but Reece won’t let him use the power, because neither of them brought him something to eat. Doom and Richards fight. When Doom admits Richards could have ruled better, Reece sides with Richards, and gives Reed access to the Beyonders’ power. Later, Reece says he owes Morales one for the hamburger; this is presumably why Morales is allowed to exist in the new universe. Afterwards, they all create a new arrangement where Reed gets an idea for a universe from Franklin, and then creates the universe using Reece’s power. They also anchor it with a slice of Reece, akin to those who were in parallel universes before, which also heals Reece’s mind, one at a time—he is more whole as he splits apart. (This supports the Secret Wars 5 explanation for his increasing insanity over the New Avengers explanation.)

Costume: Reece’s costume is more clearly shown to have the pauldron be continuous across his chest, including the green, and the collar. The purple lighting bolts are fairly separated and don’t even connect at the belt on the back, which is different from the statue and from Secret Wars 5. Otherwise it is the classic costume. The Reece that helps create the new universe seems to have the same costume, although the cylinders on the belt aren’t visible. He has purple cuffs and a purple collar.

Face: Same as issue 5.

Body: Same as issue 5.

Character: Seemingly sane now, although he doesn’t talk. From what Valeria says, he should be getting more sane and emotionally healed as they create more universes—which is counter to what we see of him in Ultimates. The Reece that creates new universes seems at peace as he waves to the new, split-off Reeces.

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Ultimates 5

May 2016

Writer: Al Ewing, Penciler and Inker: Kenneth Rocafort

The scene of Reece helping to remake the universe with Reed and Franklin Richards is shown again.

Costume: Based off his classic costume, but the pauldron is different—the two zig-zags coming off the shoulders don’t connect together, and instead just barely touch at the belt, as in Secret Wars 9. Uniquely, he has some pouches hanging off his belt.

Face: Normal. Probably 2 scars on each cheek and 4 on the forehead. No lip scarring. Brushed-back hair.

Body: Normal.

Character: Seen standing intently, but smiling in a nice way.

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Ultimates 6

June 2016

Writer: Al Ewing, Penciler and Inker: Christian Ward

Galactus talks with Reece about the multiverse’s condition.

Costume: Largely his classic costume. He has bare feet, as he is relaxing in his man cave of a pocket dimension. He has no belt or bracers, except randomly in one picture where he has a plain belt and gloves. The shirt and pants seem to be a onesie.

Face: A bit oddly shaped, with somewhat of a big nose and forehead. No scars, strangely. His hair stands on end, and is longer than usual.

Body: Thin.

Character: Somewhat crazy sounding, but not totally babbling—more like he is trying to be mysterious and manipulating. Not evil, but not necessarily good. He is trying to help Galactus, but also toying with him.

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New Avengers 17

December 2016

Writer: Al Ewing, Penciler: Paco Medina, Inker: Juan Vlasco

It is revealed that when Reece cut Ultimate Reed Richards into slices, he sent those slices across the multiverse, each to become their own version of Ultimate Richards. Richards says he did it because Reece knew he needed someone in each universe who would make things happen.

Costume: Reece is shown mostly as a glowing silhouette, but clearly it is his classic costume. Details can’t be seen.

Face: Can’t be seen clearly.

Body: Normal.

Character: Given Richard’s statement about wanting a version of him in every universe in order to make things happen, it seems as if Reece is trying to manipulate the way the universes roll out to some degree.

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Wilson Fisk and the White Painting: A Detailed Analysis



This is an experiment in writing and disseminating a more academic-style paper through the Vine.


In the Netflix Daredevil show, Wilson Fisk’s white painting, and the white walls associated with it, play a fairly big part in the storytelling. It’s very unusual for any quote-unquote fine art to be so prominently featured in a movie or TV show unless it’s part of a heist or a biography of an artist, let alone for it to be used so thoughtfully, so I would like to analyze the painting both aesthetically and how it is used within story.

Over the next three posts within this blog thread, I will discuss the actual painting and the two white walls as if all three are paintings, or even as if they are all the same painting, in a sense. I will also tend to call it “the white painting,” instead of Rabbit in a Snowstorm, for reasons described in the second post, below.

In this post, I’ll recount the details of the painting’s appearances in the show, but first, a summary: when Wilson Fisk is a boy, his father tells him to stare at a white wall as a punishment, and think about what it means to be a man. His father then proceeds to beat his mother, upon which Fisk tears himself from the wall and kills his father. When WIlson is older, he buys a painting that reminds him of the wall.* He seems to get some level of comfort from it. It also leads him into a relationship with Vanessa, its dealer, seemingly one of his only mature relationships in his life. When he finally goes to jail, he stares at the wall in his cell as if it were both the original wall and the painting, with a new sense of intensity and anger.

* This is my one unanswered question about the painting—why did Fisk go to the gallery in the first place? Did go there on purpose to buy it, having perhaps seen it in the gallery’s publicity? Did he randomly show up at the gallery by chance, going out to some art openings as other rich people in the city might do for an evening’s entertainment? Did he have some ulterior motive for showing up, like planning to extort the gallery or someone else in the area? I don’t think it was to arrange a “meet cute” with Vanessa; she seems to almost intrude on him when she introduces herself. He does clearly have a refined aesthetic taste, based on his apartment and his music, so perhaps he did just go out for a tour of the local gallery openings.


Times are approximate.

Episode 3: Rabbit in a Snowstorm

Starting at 49:04 in (3:40 remaining)

It is an opening reception for a group show at the Scene Contempo Gallery. Vanessa is strolling through. She sees Fisk staring at the white painting, with the shot centered from a few feet away.

The rest of the exhibition also seems to be pure abstraction, with most of the work consisting of monochromatically-colored canvases of a basically similar size.

Vanessa comes up and says, “There’s an old children’s joke. You hold up a white piece of paper and you ask, what’s this? A rabbit in a snowstorm.” She smiles and laughs, with no response. “Are you interested or just looking?”

“Interested,” he says.

“People always ask me how can we charge so much for what amounts to gradations of white. I tell them it’s not about the artist’s name, or the skill required, not even about the art itself. All that matters is, how does it make you feel?” Her eyes scan back and forth across the painting in an appreciative, searching way.

We finally see his face, which turns to look at her, longingly. “It makes me feel alone.”

They stare at each other. He turns back to the painting, while she continues to look at him.

The White Painting
The White Painting

Episode 4: In the Blood

Starting at 18:40 in (34:21 remaining)

Fisk comes to the gallery to see Vanessa.

V: How are you enjoying Rabbit in a Snowstorm? [It’s unclear if she’s using the title ironically, or if it’s the painting’s real title.]

F: You remember?

V: Of course. It’s one of my favorite pieces.

F: I hung it in my bedroom. It’s the last thing I see every night.

V: That’s either very romantic, or very sad. [smiling]

F: I like to tell myself it’s the former.

V: Don’t we all.

After some stumbling he asks her out.

Episode 5: World on Fire

Starting at 40:22 in (16:09 remaining)

Fisk and Vanessa are talking about friends.

V: So you do have those. And yet the man says he was lonely when he looked at my painting.

F: MY painting.

Episode 8: Shadows in the Glass

Multiple scenes:

Starting at the beginning of the episode

Fisk wakes up after a nightmare and looks at the painting, in a sort of desperate need for calm. Classical music starts to play in the background. The first shot is of Fisk’s face, then it switches to the painting, and then the camera zooms in to a close-up on the painting. Fisk makes an omelette with the music continuing. The painting is part of what makes him feel civilized, under control, calm—“alone” doesn’t really feel like part of what he’s feeling. He feels like himself.

He picks out a black suit with black shirt and his dad’s cufflinks. Then he sees his young self in the mirror, soaked in blood.

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Starting at 29:43 in (24:13 remaining)

Fisk wakes up again. Once again, the camera starts with his face, then does a reverse shot to look at the painting, except that this time it zooms out, and out of focus, instead of in. He stares at the painting. This time he looks more sad, wishing for something like love or hope or redemption. Wishing things had been different. It almost feels as if the painting is failing him, he wants it to do more but knows it can’t. He makes an omelette again. He picks out the same clothes. You get more of a feeling of “aloneness” from the process this time—it is sad to be doing it the same every time. He is lonely with himself. Classical music again.

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Starting at 35:24 in (18:32 remaining)

Fisk’s father is angry with the young Wilson: “Think of the man you want to be. You sit here, and you stare at that wall. And you think about that. You’re my son. You should be a king, not some fat little pussy.”

The mom shakes her head.

Father: “Sit. What I say? Don’t look at me, look at the wall,” as Wilson looks briefly up at him for guidance. Now Wilson looks at the wall.

Father: “Don’t take your eyes off till I get back.”

The camera focuses on the wall and we see it has a similar texture to the painting.

The mom and dad talk about his loan to a loan shark. Wilson continues to look nervously at the wall. The dad starts beating the mom. Wilson continues to look at the wall, and we see it close up again.

Then we switch to Wilson in the present, staring out the windows of his apartment into the dark night, similarly to how one might stare at a painting. Wesley shows up with Vanessa, wearing white, his emotional savior. At one point they both stare out of (or at) the window together.

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Starting at 38:43 in (15:15 remaining)

Wilson’s father continues to beat his mother. Wilson is now crying and staring at the wall. He gets up and kills his father.

Wilson screams “keep kicking him” while hammering in his father’s head, in reference to when his dad made him repeatedly kick a bully.

We see (and Wilson sees) the wall again when he hugs his mom. He is finally alone with his one ally in his life at the time, and for the first time with nothing to interfere with him accessing her; but his father’s murder seems to have created a new distance of a sort between them.

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Starting at 47:04 in (6:56 remaining)

Wilson wakes up from a nightmare and looks at the painting again, but this time we don’t see his face in a reaction shot. The painting comes into focus behind him, but then he looks around at Vanessa in his bed almost immediately, and the focus is back on him, and his face. The reaction shot is to Vanessa, not the painting. He doesn’t have to rely on the painting any more. He isn’t alone any more. No music this time—Ben Urich’s voiceover starts instead. Fisk and Vanessa have breakfast together. His solitary habits are no longer a reminder of his lonesomeness. She picks out different clothes for him than what he’s worn before: a grey suit, grey shirt, and cufflinks that are both black and silver. She still wears white; during the press conference she wears a grey coat.

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Episode 9: Speak of the Devil

Starting at 20:28 in (37:39 remaining)

Vanessa and Murdock are talking in the gallery.

V: You don’t need sight to appreciate art, but you do need honesty.

M: Sight helps.

V: Sure, but there’s something very intimate in experiencing art through someone else’s eyes.

V: Art isn’t furniture…if you knew exactly what you were looking for you’d just be decorating. Art should speak to you. Move you.

V: This one, for example, one of my favorite pieces. [This is the same thing she said about Fisk’s painting.]

V: Imagine a sea of tonal reds. The color of anger. Of rage. But also the color of the heart. Of love, hope. It strikes a perfect balance between the two.

M: I don’t know, it sounds aggressive.

V: It all depends on your point of view.

M: Maybe something a little less challenging.

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Episode 13: Daredevil

Starting at 53:14 in (3:05 remaining)

Fisk settles down onto his bed in his prison cell. He is intense, angry, focused, the ill-intent. We see him staring at the wall from the side, but don’t understand. The camera looks at him directly in the face, zooming in. Then the camera moves behind him, and we see what he sees: another wall, which comes into focus similarly to how the painting came into focus after Fisk slept with Vanessa. The wall takes on new meanings. We see his face in close-up again. The ill-intent.

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[Since I will be discussing the “ill-intent” concept a fair amount below, here’s the dialog from that scene, earlier in the episode:

F: There was a man, he was travelling from Jerusalem to Jericho when he was set upon by men of ill-intent. They stripped the traveller of his clothes, they beat him, and they left him bleeding in the dirt. A priest happened by, saw the traveller, but he moved to the other side of the road and continued on. And then a Levite, a religious functionary, came to the place, saw the dying traveler, but he too moved to the other side of the road, passed him by. Then came a man from Samaria, a Samaritan, a good man, he saw the traveler bleeding in the road and he stopped to aid him, without thinking of the circumstances or the difficulty it might bring him. The Samaritan tended to the traveller’s wounds, applying oil and wine. He carried him to an inn, gave him all the money he had, for the owner to take care of the traveler. The Samaritan, he continued on his journey. He did this simply because the traveler was his neighbor. He loved his city, and all the people in it.

I always thought that I was the Samaritan in that story. It’s funny, isn’t it, how even the best of men can be deceived by their true nature.

Guard: The hell does that mean?

F: It means that I’m not the Samaritan, that I’m not the priest, or the Levite. That I am the ill-intent, who set upon the traveler, upon a road that he should not have been on.]


A few comments on the other art tidbits found during the gallery scenes.

Episode 3: Rabbit in a Snowstorm

The gallery has perhaps the cheesiest name ever, the “Scene Contempo Gallery.” Honestly this name is so unlikely to be used by a New York gallery that it makes me hard to take the rest of the art content of the show seriously, so let’s move on.

The gallery is hosting a group show that features selected work from seven artists, some of whom may be intentional references to real artists:

Daniel Ballarón

Eric Blum: there is a real Eric Blum who does abstract painting similar to what is in the show

Emily Fairhurst

Isaac Holt: there is a real Isaac Holt on deviantart, but he’s 17 years old, and his work is fantasy sketches, so he doesn’t seem to be an intentional reference

Alan Posner: there is an Alan Posner who was the owner of the iZm art gallery in Bremerton, Washington

Erica Wessmann: there is a real Erica Wessmann who makes some abstract sculptures similar to some seen in the gallery, although her work tends to have more of a conceptual edge

Gary Worth

I have searched to see who made the actual white painting seen in the show, but have not found anything. I would be interested to know the artist’s name. We also don’t know which of the above fictional artists is supposed to have painted it within the show’s universe. I am guessing that perhaps one of the people listed above may be the actual artist who painted the prop painting. (Another question is, was it painted specifically for the show, or was it an already-existing painting that was just loaned to the show by an artist?)

Episode 4: In the Blood

We can see the above artists’ complete names more easily.

Episode 9: Speak of the Devil

The gallery has a new show up, it looks a bit post-Cubist, some more general abstraction with a bit of an ‘80s neo-expressionism feel, and some that look a lot like Richard Diebenkorn’s work. It features selected work from:

Zach Citare

Mike Crupi: there is a real Mike Crupi who is a documentary photographer

Michael Dave: there is a real photographer named Miki Davcev who uses Michael Dave as a pseudonym, and there is also a real Michael David whose work includes abstract painting like those in the gallery, and finally there is a real Michael David Lynch who has worked on several comic book movies

Jacquie Dore: this is the name of a production assistant on Daredevil

Alex Foreman: this is the name of a production assistant on Daredevil

Lisa Mall: this is the name of a production assistant on Daredevil

Angela Persico: this is the name of a production assistant, but she did not work on Daredevil

Based on how many of these people are either artists or people in the TV/movie industry, presumably Citaire is as well, and probably the other names in the first show too, although I was unable to find out their connection. Anyone who has any information on these people, please let me know!


Doth Iceman Protest Too Much? The relationship between Iceman, Cloud, and Moondragon

Doth Iceman Protest Too Much?

Iceman being Gay, and the Curious, Mostly-Forgotten Case of the Romantic Quadrangle of Iceman, Angel, Moondragon, and Cloud

X-Men 600 has confirmed that the mainstream Earth-616 Iceman is gay. Previously it had only been revealed that the version of him from the past, who had come to live in the present, was gay, and many fans thought that perhaps 616 Bobby would remain straight, as his past version might come from an alternative timeline. Of course, with Secret Wars, who knows how this will affect any version of Iceman going forward, but the main point is, 616 Bobby is now gay, and always has been--he was just in the closet this whole time before.

Many people feel this new gay identity contradicts his past too much to be believed, and upends old romances or flirtations with various women. As someone who started reading comics in the original X-Factor days, for instance, I always liked his relationship with Opal. The new explanation is that these were basically attempts on his part to cover up his gay identity, and even to force himself to try to be straight. This explanation essentially invites us to reinterpret the past in light of the present.

Everyone will accept or not accept these explanations on their own. What I would like to do here is present one of the only storylines from the deep past that does, to some degree, actually provide what could be interpreted as evidence for Bobby's homosexuality. I'm not saying that it was originally intended to be evidence that Bobby is gay; I'm saying that now, as we look back on it, it can be interpreted in a new way--a way that supports his confusion and turmoil over his hidden, and maybe personally-misunderstood, sexual identity.

The storyline in question is from the Defenders, in the early 80s--an era where mainstream comics just did not feature any gay characters or characters with non-typical gender (although the Defenders was actually known for forward-looking relationships, including the interracial marriage between the white Devil-Slayer and his black wife, Cory, and various other plays with identity and body-switching). But the story I'm about to explain, written by Peter Gillis, took all that to a new level.

It tells the story of the romantic entanglements of Cloud, who starts the story as a teenaged girl and ends up with both male and female identities, and how Bobby, alone of the Defenders, has some major issues with his feelings about her male identity. I will interpret it--against the original meaning of the story--as Bobby wrestling with his suppressed gay feelings for Cloud's male identity.

While my interpretations about Bobby's suppressed gay identity are totally invented after the fact and only make sense in the new light of this year's revelations, the story does include what was very much a provocative story of a transsexual transformation and a lesbian relationship between Cloud and Moondragon, both of which were, again, highly unusual in the early 80s and honestly I am shocked it was passed by the comics code, which was still very much in effect at the time. Angel also takes part, a bit.

Here's what happened.

Moondragon joins the team. Odin considered her dangerous, so he put a headband on her that hobbled her psi powers if she used them too much for evil. But, she used them that way anyway. She made both Angel and Iceman have sexual/romatic feelings towards her, in the hope that eventually they would take her headband off. This manipulation went unknown for many issues. Check out these hilarious scans of Iceman and Angel thinking the same romance-drenched things about Moondragon in Defenders 126, 128, and 130.

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Eventually Cloud joined the team. Moondragon's powers accidentally made Cloud attracted to her too. Essentially, Cloud totally fell in love with Moondragon, to an extent which seemed to even shock Moondragon. I should point out that while Moondragon has had lesbian relationships in recent times, this was not the case back then, so this is essentially her first female relationship. However, Moondragon mostly acted as a kind mentor back to Cloud, she never fully overtly reciprocated Cloud's declarations of love. But the relationship clearly went a little beyond that.

Here is Moondragon first reaching out towards Cloud, in what for Moondragon is an unusually warm embrace (of a mostly-naked girl dressed in wisps of cloud) (Cloud is presented as being probably around 18 or 19 years old) in Defenders 130, followed later on by Cloud's full declaration of love in Defenders 134. I can't stress enough that this was a fully openly lesbian declaration of love, at a time when such things simply weren't dealt with in mainstream comics even if that love was caused by Moondragon's powers--which we didn't know at the time anyway. Then we see another time they share a tender moment; here again Moondragon talks down to her a bit, she's not as fully into this relationship, and is basically using Cloud.

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At the same time, Bobby and Cloud started a flirtatious relationship as well. It wasn't as serious, but they were kind of crushing on each other. These are from Defenders 132. Please note Moondragon's line about subconscious hostility towards women, which takes on an entirely new light when you know that Bobby is really gay and suppressing his true sexuality.

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In what can now be seen in a heartbreaking struggle between her personal feelings and societal norms, Cloud eventually felt that her lesbian desires for Moondragon were wrong, illicit, unnatural. She used her powers to turn into a boy instead of a girl, so that her love would be more "natural"--i.e., fit societal norms by then being heterosexual instead of homosexual, even if abrogating other norms about gender-switching. I should point out that Cloud is really a sentient nebula (like, from space), and so she doesn't really have a natural human form at all, let alone a male or female one. But when this was all first happening, no one knew that. As far as the readers knew, she was just a girl with powers.

First there's this panel where she painfully wrestles with her feelings towards Moondragon, which she feels are "wrong," "unthinkable," "sicko," but which she can't stop feeling.

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Then she has a dream, in which she and a dream-Moondragon (really Moondragon psychically inserting herself in her dreams) discuss their feelings, with Moondragon saying that "it can't be wrong unless you think it's wrong." (See scans way below.) Moondragon has ulterior motives here, but I think her feelings about sexual identity are still genuine. But upon waking, Moondragon is surprised to find out that Cloud has found a unexpected solution by turning male. Now Cloud feels "I can love you, Moondragon--everything that was wrong is now right! I can love you--and I do!" As she later explains to the rest of the Defenders, "I just couldn't go on like I was! I couldn't fall in love with Moondragon--and be like I was!" Now I want to emphasize that I don't think writer Peter Gillis is really against gay love. I think he's actually trying to make it OK for love and gender to take all forms, which again is an amazing statement for 1984 or so under the comics code.

So this made her one of the first transsexuals in comics, if you will--someone who felt that her natural gender must be wrong, and so she wanted to change to the other gender. Now obviously this is not quite a realistic situation, but it does provide a powerful example of someone who felt uncomfortable in their current gender and chose to do something about it, and who then felt the social ramifications of their choice.

Because after she turns male, the Defenders are of course shocked. They always knew her as a girl. However, most of them get over it fairly quickly. Bobby, however, has real issues. He alone can't deal with her new gender, because of his feelings for her. He says, "How can you be so comfortable, Val--with HIM sitting next to you?" When Cloud responds, since she's right there, he says, "Oh sure--just your regular average guy/girl." He sarcastically asks if he should kiss her or shake his hand. He basically reacts to Cloud the same way that some people still have even today with transsexuals. Val puts him in his place, but Cloud is really shaken by her lack of acceptance. (I should note that while Val has in recent years admitted to lesbian relationships of her own, her quote here about "I once had a mortal woman partake of my nature" is not a sexual metaphor, it just means she and another woman switched bodies for a while.)

This is all in Defenders 136.

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There's also this panel from a little later in Defenders 140, where he is "nervous" when she is a boy, and the whole thing is "too weird to deal with."

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Now in the original interpretation, I think we'd say Bobby's issues are because Bobby is straight, and likes her as a girl, and when she becomes a boy, and he still likes her, he doesn't know how to deal with that. That's already a pretty interesting story of sexual and gender identity.

However, with the current revelation that Bobby is in fact gay, there are two slightly different ways to interpret this old story: either Bobby knows he's gay, and is pretending to have a crush on her (as, for instance, he was pretending to luridly watch girls' aerobics taps with Angel in another issue of this time), but is actually just friends with her. Then when she turns into a boy, he now finds that his pretend crush is a real one, but he can't do anything about it because he's in the closet, so he has to pretend that he doesn't like her new male gender in order to reinforce his outwardly-straight identity. In other words, he doth protest too much. The other option is that Bobby hasn't even personally come to terms with the fact that he's gay, and doesn't understand his own male desires, submerging them deeply into his subconscious. Therefore his flirtations with Cloud are innocent and meaningless, but when she turns male, he suddenly feels all-new feelings of desire for him that he himself can't explain, and starts to get angry with himself over what he can't admit to himself. This could be, to borrow a term from former Defenders writer J.M. Dematteis's story of Moonshadow that was written about the same time, the beginning of his journey to awakening. He's "nervous" and feels the whole thing is "too weird to deal with" because he doesn't want to deal with the truth about himself as a gay man--something he won't come to accept until today.

We later see Cloud still trying to have a relationship with Moondragon, although Moondragon is clearly having none of it any more, in Defenders 138.

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Cloud tries to make up with Bobby. She is freaked out when she accidentally turns into a girl again, clearly feeling more comfortable in her new male gender, and talks about how she's the same in either gender, but Bobby can't see that. She wants Bobby to shake her hand as a man, to at least be friends, but Bobby has a totally visceral reaction that makes him back away. Inside, at least, he knows he's a hypocrite. Again, in the new understanding that Bobby is gay, this takes on a whole new light: he's physically reacting to his suppressed desire for her as a man, and knows he's a hypocrite because of his own sexual identity. Defenders 138.

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Eventually Moondragon admits that she used her powers to amp Iceman, Angel, and Cloud's feelings for her. Cloud rejects this possibility, and insists that it was real love, but ultimately seems to accept it. Moondragon seems conflicted over what she actually felt towards Cloud, answering that she doesn't know what love really is. She certainly feels tender for Cloud, at least. I feel like this is Moondragon coming to terms not so much with her innate gay or bisexual nature, but the fact that she actually felt love for someone, and this was so unusual for her normally cold self that it felt unnatural to her.

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Cloud and Bobby finally have a heart-to-heart. He says, "There's no way I can let myself fall hard for you when I know that somewhere inside you is--a guy." (Again, protest too much?) She admits she loves Moondragon, not Bobby, but does have warm feelings for him. She knows he's only comfortable when she's a "cute girl"--which we can now interpret as meaning, because he doesn't have to wrestle with his gay nature when he's around her as a girl. Bobby eventually manages to get over himself and tentatively accepts Cloud, whatever her identity. Defenders 142.

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Later, Cloud's feelings about Moondragon, who both manipulated and spurned her, turn negative.

Here, she talks with Bobby about being mad at her in Defenders 143.

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Then she helps defeat Moondragon, who has now temporarily turned evil and accepted the power of the Dragon of the Moon, by channeling her rage against her, in Defenders 144. Moondragon's own emotional journey over this time is also very interesting and impactful, but I can't sufficiently get into that here.

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And later, Cloud uses that same rage against Moondragon to help defeat a demon, Hotspur, in Defenders 147.

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However, Cloud's old friend Seraph eventually says she can show Cloud her true identity. Cloud is extremely fearful of finding out the truth, and in a desperately sad scene, begs Bobby to not make her find out, saying that she'll even stay as a girl for him, something she clearly doesn't want to do. This just reeks of so many of the kinds of painful, unnecessary compromises that gay and pre-transformation-transsexuals are forced to make for their families and friends and society. Happily, Bobby is past this now and tells her to find out the truth. (It turns out that Cloud took on both male and female forms because she based them on two humans who were in a coma that she met when she first came to earth.) Defenders 149.

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When she eventually finds out who she really is, and leaves the Defenders to return to space, she has a particular moment of goodbye with Bobby, talking of acceptance and how identity and love are the same regardless of gender. Defenders 150.

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Later, when Seraph leaves, Seraph also talks about how Cloud and Bobby had a particularly strong relationship, leaving the whole relationship on a positive note. Defenders 151.

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This story of Cloud, Bobby, Moondragon (and tangentially Angel at the beginning) would be a pretty unusual and even transgressive story in the early 80s. No matter how you read it, it's the story of a girl who found herself in love with a woman, and changed her gender to make herself feel better because she thought it was wrong to love another woman, and the way that Bobby was unable accept that new gender due to his feelings for her. And that over time, Cloud was able to come to terms with the fact that she was in fact both genders, and Bobby was able to come to terms with his feelings for her.

But I do think that now we can interpret this story in new, additional ways, given Bobby's new identity as a gay man, and read extra reasons as to why he might have felt uncomfortable with her as a man. I do see it as just about the only evidence that could support the interpretation that he was gay from his past history. I'm sure many will say that since this wasn't the original intent, this new interpretation makes no sense. But I'm a believer that any text can be read in any way, and that authorial intent doesn't trump the reader's interpretations. Now that we have new evidence, we can reinterpret the old evidence in new ways, and that's what I wanted to do here.

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