Nyas

Alucard's fanboys are the worst...

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@sophia89: Come to think of it, those kages were summoned using White zetsu bodies as sacrifices... Maybe it's because of that.

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@sophia89: Good question (though I already addressed it). My guess is that it's due to IT originally being a jutsu meant to create Kaguya's minions. After all, you can't really turn dead people into White zetsus, can you ?

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#3  Edited By Nyas

@sophia89: Thank you ! I really appreciate the complement :D

No Caption Provided

@nyas: Can you show someone getting hit by the bijuu bomb? you know so we can determine the durability one needs to survive it.

That's not how it's done, it's the other way around : "Can you show bijuu bombs destroying something ? So we can determine the durability of one who survives it."

In which case the weakest Bijuu bombs were shown to be mountain busting.

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#4  Edited By Nyas

Sanji doesn't hit women = Auto-win for Tsunade.

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#5  Edited By Nyas

@neongamewave:

You can`t say that because I can make that excuse with Naruto having to rely on destructibility feats both can be calculated reasonably.

Fan calcs and especially pixel scaling aren't a very reliable ways to gauge the speed, as they tend to give us unreasonable and illogical results depending on who does the calc. Let's be honest here, it's not like Mangakas go through their own calcs to tell just how fast their characters would have to be to do this or that, nor are they usually aware of the consequences of their own feats if calculated normally.

And also that`s a big stretch of a statement since Naruto characters`s speed relies heavily on ABC logic

None of Naruto's feats rely on ABC logic from what I know.

and they even have trouble with lightning

You mean Natural massive mountain sized+ blots of lightning that are fired from barely a few meters and that are stated to move at hundreds of times the speed of sound. Naruto characters never had trouble outrunning the energy based lightning that other mangas such as bleach use :

dodging weapons that don`t catch much friction

Such as ? Hopefully not Kunais because even old lady Chyo reacted to supersonic projectiles :

I'd also like to point out that relying on the lack sonic booms and/or friction to say that something isn't sonic is a fallacy, since by that logic no one in bleach is even sonic due to them never causing sonic booms while moving. Sure, when there is friction or a sonic boom represented you can of course use them to say the the projectile is such or such speed, but when there aren't you will have to rely on other means to gauge the speed instead of just saying "no sonic boom = not sonic" since well all know that scientifically accurate representations aren't what Mangakas aim for.

they`ve seemed to have been hypersonic before Naruto characters even reached supersonic levels.

Based on nothing outside of unquantifiable tropes such as after images or disappearing and re-appearing.

You would have to prove that first.

That's what one of the following parts of my post was for.

No there isn`t, even IT couldn`t affect dead people

Yes there is. And IT is a jutsu made to affect the living beings (since Kaguya uses it to create new solders) so of course it wouldn't affect the dead. If you want proof that genjutsu affecting the dead however :

No Caption Provided

also it only worked under certain conditions such as being connected to the Moon and Holy Tree

You don't need to be "connected" to the moon to use IT, and being connected to the Gedomazu = being connected to Kaguya herself. And this is irrelevant as all the pseudo conditions where met when naruto fought them so the same will be applied for Ichigo.

regular Genjutsu techniques wouldn`t do a thing to Ichigo

Purely an assumption without any kind of evidence to support it.

also Genjutsu is supposed to be the TP of Naruto and Bleach has its own form of TP, willpower is mainly shown to break certain attacks

Incorrect, the Tp of the Bleach verse is either Aizen's Kyoka suigetsu or Shinji's Sakanade and no shinigami or Quincy not even the captains or Yhwach showed any kind of resistance against their effects, even though their abilities are nothing special (5 sense control) and something even basic genjutsus could replicate. So no one in bleach has any for of TP defense.

so there`s more evidence on my part that it wouldn`t work.

None, from what I've seen so far.

I have come across this reasoning several times as it seems to be a nicely executed excuse than anything and it seems to be more theoretical or speculatively indicative rather than introduced in terms of it applying to all the other characters on a universal scale, and that was Kaguya when IT was cast there were people still with Chakra and she couldn`t even absorb Sasuke or Naruto`s chakra another thing is it has been shown consistently throughout the series that Uchiha members rely on their opponents having chakra points which is what it targets first.

What are you talking about ? Theory, speculation, excuse, chakra absorption ? Where did I mention any of this ?

My point is very clear and supportable by both manga scans as well as Databook explanations : Genjutsu can work on people without chakra, because Kaguya used genjutsu on people who didn't have any chakra over a thousand years ago.

Also of course it would work because she ate the chakra fruit which made her the first ever chakra originator and the most powerful.... Huge difference...

My point exactly !

And those characters have no proof of having TP resistance

Just like Bleach characters, really.

or even being that powerful to begin with.

Overall power never had anything to do with TP.

Him and Aizen showcased that type of damage when it came to mountain busting in the Hueco Mundo arc... He has mountain range level damage and above....

No they didn't and no he hasn't. small hills =/= mountains.

Also that`s not factoring in his Hollow Mask, also what does multi-island have to do with anything?

Durability of perfect susanoo (duh)

I can name multi-island busting level characters who still lose to tiers not below but different to them.

Irrelevant.

Ichigo has the better durability than most Naruto characters and he can last longer...

No he doesn't, sure he is more durable than base Naruto but a chakra cloaked naruto and susnanoo covered sasuke trump him in that department.

Having raw output is good but it isn`t good enough when you have to rely on a limited and linear energy source for everything especially when your body is likened to a regular human`s.

We are talking about durability, remember ? And Naruto characters are certainly not "regular" humans no matter how you try to cut it. Also chakra is by far (and I mean REALLY far) a more versatile source of energy than Reiryoku. And you act as if Bleach characters have unlimited energy or something...

Evidence such as when Madara himself was facing the Kages and Tsunade was causing him headaches

That was Madara vs all kages not just Tsunade and Madara wasn't taking the fight seriously and that was an incomplete susanoo and not even amped by senjutsu...

Why don't you mention these occasions instead

  • Sasuke's perfect susanoo reaching a meteorite and cutting into into pieces in the time it took a TBBRS to explode :
No Caption Provided
  • Kakashi's perfect susanoo outrunning Kaguya's arms, that were stated to be extremely fast even by senjutsu of the six paths amped naruto and sasuke :
No Caption Provided
  • Sasuke's perfect susanoo nearly blitzing Naruto :

also its not fast to Bleach standards...

Bleach standards are below Naruto standards just saying, and you will have to present evidence to back this claim.

Can you show me a feat from a Naruto character that competes with Ichigo facing and slashing away Byakuya`s bankai without having to rely on ABC logic and power-scale such as this certain character dodged lightning and beat this character, Guy was fast when using the Gates and etc?

I'm often seeing this feat getting overblown out of proportions for some reason. Till this day I'm trying to gauge just how fast Bleach fans think that feat makes Ichigo, could you answer this question ? Sonic ? supersonic ? hypersonic ? Once I get your answer I'll gladly provide feats to prove Naruto's speed advantage.

(Don't take this as an attempt at dodging the question, I just need to know what kind of feats I should chose to counter it and I promise that my next post will have the speed feats needed.)

Oh and, that's not ABC logic it's power scaling and legit power scaling at that.

And for the simple fact Ichigo is as fast as both Naruto and Sasuke also he can use Flash Step to his advantage.

You will have to prove the speed part and Both Naruto and sasuke can use shunshin (the Naruto verse's version of flash steps).

You have no proof of that,

Not like you've provided a proof for your statement either.

many overplay Naruto character`s speed by downplaying other characters.

It's the other way around really, you won't believe how many people here believe that Naruto < bullets...

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Even if he is faster he isn`t faster by a wide gap

Probably so.

and he certainly isn`t more durable....

But he is, with a chakra cloak that is. What are Ichigo's best durability feats again ? Tanking (meh on tanking since he got his arm wrecked) one of Aizen's fragors ? Naruto trumps that feat : Effortlessly deflecting 5 mountain busters

No Caption Provided

Its an energy blast but not your typical chakra concentration of energy it has different properties and it also works on a spiritual level blunt force is enough to damage Susanoo but when its focused and pinpointed that`s even better also Susanoo consumes a lot of chakra and Ichigo can definitely outlast Sasuke and

I don't see how any of this matters when said energy blast is nowhere near enough to damage susanoo. And I doubt Ichigo could outlast sasuke from him vs Naruto fight since that sasuke had absorbed chakra from he tailed beasts, if not for him using it all in his indra arrow he would have easily been able to fight for days (even exhausted he still fought for an entire day)

Naruto since their fights are not as dragged out or as long unless it has something to do with plot.

Umm... the war lasted for like 3 days and the Naruto vs Sasuke fight an additional full day... which fight in Bleach lasted that long ?

Not the same type though that`s something you are forgetting its more of life force kinda like Ki in Dragon Ball while spirit energy is more than just that

Nope it's the same type, and it seems you are mistaken because chakra has been explained to be both life force + spiritual energy. You can mix the ratios however you like depending on whether you want to use more Yin release related abilities or Yang release ones and depending on how good you are you can also mix in some Natural energy to further improve your abilities.

and that isn`t true because spirit energy has shown to have pure, divine and unique attributes that is unique to different charactersunlike Chakra where its usually the top-tier characters who are truly unique such as SOSP, Ashura, Indra, Kaguya, the Uchiha and etc...

That isn't always the case and I hope you realize that every single person on the Naruto verse that has chakra has but an infinitely small portion of Kaguya's divine chakra.

Ichigo is fast enough.... Easily fast enough to avoid it and it takes time,

You will have to prove that.

why can`t he just repel it with his spiritual energy?

When has he ever done that ?

You have no proof other than it busted mountains, that is not enough to justify a reason especially if you don`t include everything else that is important. He can bust as many mountains and countries as he wants but if he can`t tag

LOL I'm not talking about Bijuu Damas, I said Gudodamas (Truth seeking spheres). And Buijuu damas are GG anyway since Obito can imprison him in this barrier :

No Caption Provided

or sense Ichigo since he doesn`t run on chakra then he`s going to have a hard time

By that Logic Ichigo can't hurt Obito/madara/Kaguya since he doesn't use senjutsu.

especially when Bleach attacks incinerate their opponents and are overall more focused energies when in comparison to Naruto...

Common misconception. Bijuu bombs are big, yes that's true. However they are ridiculously focused for what they can do.

For example a Tsar bomb (Biggest Nuke ever) could cover an area of several hundreds kilometers however it is still unable to bust a single mountain, whereas bijuu bombs vaporise mountains without covering that large of an area.

It’s not just that it’s also how it compares to Ichigo and his feats, I think it just proves that even Naruto`s toughest being that is supposed to be a reality warper doesn`t compare... I mean she was cool but I can even compare Aizen to her IMO.

That a very dishonest way of interpreting things since Obito and Madara's feats trump any and everything in the bleach verse... and Kaguya is supposed to be above them. It's just that she had no occasion to display her full power since she spend a third of the fight trying to capture them alive, the other third trying to kill just Naruto and was beat before she had chance to go all out.

But don't be mislead as a single one of her vacuum palms could oneshot Ichigo, same for her Ash bones or BFR via portals. But I have no intention of going as far as Kaguya since Ichigo still isn't beating Obito.

I can easily argue it vice-versa by saying Aizen is smarter in more areas than one,

Smarter ? Maybe.

faster,

Faster ? not at all (and before you ask of me to prove it, start by providing proofs yourself lol)

more durable,

Not even close.

regeneration

Same for Madara.

and even better hax

Again, not even close. All the hax aizen has is KS that he stopped using the instant he evolved. While Madara has Limbo clones, planetary Tp, Wood clones, Chibaku tensei, Gudodamas etc

Bleach characters are not human like Naruto characters are if it weren`t mountain busting and everything else Naruto characters would be considered peak-meta human

Like what ? with proof please.

characters also their durability,

Hmmm ?

No Caption Provided

pain tolerance

Is that so ? Based on what ?

and healing factors are human level...

Please tell me more :

Their durability may be scaled above but in connection to all the other aspects of the human physiology they are not that impressive.

No proof whatsoever.

The reason why I stated it wouldn`t be as effective is because chakra usually and mostly is effective against its target`s chakra which goes back to the Uchihas and how the mechanics interplay with the idea.

Not at all, there are literally only two kind of chakra affecting jutsu in the entire Naruto verse : Gentle fist and Rinnegan rodes.

Or how Naruto characters rely on chakra to cause to be able to harm their opponents

Every verse regardless with a power use that power to cause harm.... Bleach characters also rely on their spiritual energy... how is this relevant ?

and target their chakra points

Only people with Byakugan.

and be able to read their movements since they operate on the same principle.

Nothing to do with chakra.

I don`t think it would be as effective or at-least expected to be as effective against a spiritually realized being such as Ichigo who has reiatsu as a form of body armor that is why, it has nothing to do with bias or misjudgment.

No concrete proof from what you've posted. So this remains an assumption.

Not really, can I see this proof of them erasing people while not at fullpower?

We have never even seen Madara or Obito at full power and Kaguya was only serious for like 2 seconds before getting sealed.

To be honest I`ve seen more impressive ideals in Bleach than Naruto when it comes to concepts of gods, magic and etc.

I've seen none at all to be honest, please do present some evidence.

Aizen even at his weakest was able to twist the perception of time when conversing with Juha.

Power has nothing to do with KS and even Weak genjutsus can alter a person's time perception as proved by Sasuke :

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Don't even get me started on Tsukuyomi that can make a person live days in the illusionary world when just an instant pases in the real one :

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But this doesn`t debunk my point. My point was that he faced Aizen at that stage and even though he did lose a part of his power he still made up for it with his Full Bringer abilities

Full bringer Ichigo is wimp compared to Dangai... how can you even claim that power made up for his dangai loss ?

and since this is composite it wouldn`t matter also I don`t see Sasuke or Madara taking Ichigo in that form.

No evidence to support this, so your opinion I take it ?

It actually is.... I know that and the Hogyoku rejected him as well as his will or wish but that doesn`t change the fact that Ichigo for the majority of the time was fighting him and Aizen couldn`t phase him

No it isn't.... And Ichigo literally used his most powerful technique ever and still failed to put Aizen down for good. As I previously said Ichigoi's win was due to PIS (aizen wanting to lose) if not for that then he would have completely slaughtered Ichigo who lost his powers right after his FGT.

echnically by overall standard of power alone Aizen would be more of a threat than Kaguya and Madara.

Based on what ? Nothing at all.

That was after when facing Kaguya, I`m talking about when Kaguya was transporting him to different dimensions and outwitting him

Kaguya only teleported him once...

also he needed help which is my point..

And that's a bad thing when facing the immortal goddess of your world ? How ?

You have no proof of this it only seems to be your opinion

You still haven't presented any kind of proof whatsoever to back like half of your statement, so you really should drop this no proof argument. So let me ask : What has current Ichigo ever done to prove he was above dangai Ichigo ? what are you basing your claims on ? Because it seems like you are going off hype and opinions.

and yet again you forget what composite means and what the OP intended. It wouldn`t matter because Dangai Ichigo is included with all of Ichigo`s transformations.

I know fully well what composite means and you are the one who forgot what he said in his previous post it seems, because I was correcting your false and baseless statement about current Ichigo being above dangai Ichigo not saying that the op is using current ichigo.

And even if you were right it doesn`t mean Ichigo isn`t or wasn`t on their level to begin with although Kubo isn`t giving Ichigo as much as spotlight in comparison to the spotlight Naruto and Sasuke get from Kishimoto, Ichigo has feats that say he could hang with Naruto`s best.

Still no proof whatsoever.

He could beat them with his superior raw power and the fact that he isn`t your typical Naruto character it makes it more plausible because Naruto characters are susceptible to their own laws that deal with chakra.

What ? Ichigo has more raw power than Obito ? since when ? Or like you say so often : "You have no proof of that"

Please notify me once Ichigo does this :

No Caption Provided

That`s true and a lot of it can be heavy PIS

What PIS ? Can you provide any evidence ?

or context depending on the situation this wouldn`t however nulify or negate Ichigo`s chances it would only make them harder and challenging in a specialized way. It`s like if you put Naruto in the Bleach universe I could easily say Naruto wouldn`t make it passed Aizen, Tsukishima, and some of the Hollows especially since Bleach mechanics are far more complicated than the Naruto chakra mechanics since its all on a legit spiritual plane and not being connected to a universe that is the chakra source can be a problem while I think there are strong chances of Ichigo failing I really wouldn`t rule out the fact that he can still win since he`s known for beating the odds, even more than Naruto sometimes although his speeches may not be as epic lol.

Why... would Naruto stop at aizen or some hollows ? And Ichigo beating the odds doesn't mean that he will magically get past Juubi obito who trumps him in all aspects : Speed, durability, hax, destructive power etc

Also your forgetting that in the OP it explicitly states that Ichigo has prep and knowledge on all of Naruto`s enemies he`s just lacking the training which doesn`t matter anyway so it makes it more in Ichigo`s favor since he does put his training to use within his respective universe.

You are misinterpreting that, the op merely says that Ichigo gets the same prep and infos Naruto had when he fought said opponents. Not that Ichigo has any prep feats from what I know as his style can be summarized in :

No Caption Provided

Your welcome and no problem, just stating the truth, and thanks for the kind words :)

Thank you for the complement and you are welcome as well. It seems like this is going to be a fantastic debate and I'm really looking forward to it :D

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Whats up with all these Naruto Trolls lately?

People trying to get Naruto banned I suppose.

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#8  Edited By Nyas

@neongamewave:

I love Naruto and Ichigo but I just think Ichigo is more than capable.

We will have to go by feats then.

That applies to Naruto more so than Ichigo even if it were to apply to both.

Not at all Ichigo's feats are mostly unquantifiable or tropes, while Naruto has legit speed and destruction feats.

No it would not,

Yes it would.

there is not substantial or credible evidence to suggest it could.

There is far more evidence of it working than not.

It has nothing to do with mind defense its the fact that Genjutsu as included with the Naruto universe works with Chakra and there`s no resource of evidence to suggest it would work on a Shinigami

This has been debunked the instant Kaguya got introduced. As she already used genjutsu on people, at a time when she was the only human with chakra (due to her eating the chakra fruit).

and willpower can be enough to cancel it out depending on the technique type of course.

Impossible, this has never ever been stated or hinted anywhere.

Yes he does

No he doesn't, proof of Ichigo having multi-island busting damage output ?

and Susanoo doesn`t even move that fast.....

Not true at all, please do present evidence.

Ichigo already is in their corner when it comes to just sheer speed

Ichigo isn't as fast as Sasuke....

and I wonder if they can tank a Cero or Getsuga Tensho that is not composed of chakra

They would no sell it as It still counts as energy blast regardless.

energy but something more elevated, spiritual energy.

Chakra IS spiritual energy in part... Yin release is purely spiritual energy. and chakra is far higher than Reiryoku due to it having "divine" attributes.

He will and I think he clears personally especially since I have seen her feats including Obito`s, nothing but exaggeration. Explosions, mountain busting and heavily implied power.

No he wouldn't, not even close actually. Ichigo has no way to get past a gudodama shield or Gudodama attack or get out of the crimson barrier. He would get one shotted by a Bijuu bomb let alone the Juubi's bijuu bombs.

I agree with you on Kaguya being a let down, and how her feats look lame in comparison to other juubi jin.... note that I said look.

Lol... He`s above Aizen but I wouldn`t say leagues the only way you would be able to consider that absolute fact is if we are talking about raw power but in smarts, battle tactic and overall durability I wouldn`t think so...

Perhaps leagues was indeed an exaggeration. Regardless, Madara still has better hax, power set, damage output and durability than Aizen.

And you forget Naruto characters well the majority of them are like human characters unlike the ones in Bleach so how do we know if Chakra would be as effective?

Huh ? How are Naruto characters more human than bleach characters ? Hopefully not in stats.

Why wouldn't chakra be as effective ? is there any kind of evidence or hint or basis for this ?

Aizen was erasing people from existence and he was transcendent level

The exact same thing can be said for : obito, Madara and Kaguya.

Ichigo was able to match him and he made note of that although it was ultimately Urahara who ended up technically beating him but I could say the same with Naruto receiving help from Kakashi and Obito against Kaguya

Dangai Ichigo was also a transcendent being at that time, and that power is something Ichigo had to sacrifice the entirety of his spiritual energy to achieve.

And the comparison isn't the same : Aizen lost because he subconsciously wanted to lose his powers. Had he wanted to keep his powers then Urahar's seal would have never been triggered and powerless Ichigo and everyone else would have gotten murked.

since Sasuke was having trouble despite his so called overpoweredness.

I hope you realize he was playing distraction and getting used to his rinnegan.

And this is composite or full power Ichigo meaning he has all feats and attributes which includes Dangai another thing is you would be incorrect with that claim. Ichigo is way stronger now than he was before especially since he has gained more experience in the long run.

More expirienced ? Sure.But Ichigo is nowhere near as strong as Dangai Ichigo, he is only more powerful than his pre-dangai and post-dangai self.

These fights are comparable and they still don`t compare to the Ichigo right now.

I'm a big Bleach fan, and I've already read all those fights. Still, none of them suggest he could get past juubi jin Obito or maybe even beat masked Obito with his jinchuriki paths...

Now I`m not saying it would be super-easy but I think Ichigo could clear as much as he could fail in the end but he always seems to evolve and beat the odds.

True, but lets not forget that most of Naruto's fights had some context to them and some of the situations require Naruto's particular skill set to get past (like sending a clone to Obito's kamui dimension, or using clones to take off the Rinnegan rodes from inside and outside the tailed beasts simultaneously, or deflect the combined bijuu bomb of all tailed beasts or using chakra cloaks to teleport from Obito's attacks etc)

But you bring up great points and your awesome :)

Thank you, your points are just as good and you're also an awesome debater. :D

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#9  Edited By Nyas

Ichigo stops at the Bijuu fight, anyone past that would murderstomp him.

@neongamewave said:

@abyssdarkfire said:

@neongamewave: Ichigo would beat Madara,Saskue,Kaguya SMH

IMO he would.

I`ve seen their feats, again its impressive in Naruto but outside of it, its not and Ichigo currently could.

Genjutsu wouldn`t affect him, and he can break through Susanoo as he is fast enough to tag Sasuke.

Kaguya was interesting but wasn`t the smartest or most gifted fighter she relied on tricks and secondary characters such as Zetsu to face Naruto.

Madara would be hard but Ichigo beat Aizen and he wasn`t near as strong as he is now in this Thousand Year Blood War arc...

I love Ichigo but IMO he wouldn't.

Ichigo's feats are even less impressive outside of his own verse...

Genjutsu would affect him, as I don't remember Ichigo haven't any form of mind defense, you are probably basing this on the "no-chakra" argument so you should know that it has been debunked. He doesn't have anywhere near the feats to say he could bust Madara's susanoo, let alone sasuke's and he certainly is not tanking a single susanoo swing.

No need to go as far as Kaguya he isn't even getting past Juubi Obito. if fact he gets murdered right here :

No Caption Provided
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Juubi jin Madara is leauges above Aizen, and current Ichigo is nowhere near as strong as dangai Ichigo who didn't even beat Aizen it was PIS.

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Any of the 4HK would solo...this is murderous spite against the Uchihas.