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@darthaznable: Do you know how ridiculous that sounds. I'm far more inclined to believe that Cloud tanked the shot as opposed to his goggles protecting him. But even so that doesn't denounce my first claim. Compare the bullets and tings off Cloud's sword when fighting in the Forgotten City. Or all the other times he fired it during the motorcycle chase. They are considerably smaller than the final shot Yazoo fired at the end. That inconsistency is solved with the very plausible instance that the shot was amped. I guess you could consider it reaching, but logically basing it on the evidence within the movie revolving around the gun and Cloud's durability, it makes the most sense. Yazoo's gun shot point blank was deflected off goggles. Shooting 30-40 ft away completely rips through a SOLDIER's body? One that had just tanked a huge fire of concentrated energy that, in a weaker state, decimated multiple buildings? It makes no sense. What I'm saying is the only thing that makes sense and solves every inconsistency within the film

@xxnephilimkingxx: not really. Being that he got shot by the same gun in the beginning. And if you're implying that Yazoo's gun without any amps > Bahamut SIN's mega flare I'm going to have to call BS. Materia amps for firearms isnt a new thing. Vincent did so in DoC. And its pretty safe to assume being that he used the same arm to fire the shot as the multiple materias infused in his arm. Hell, even go back to the clip and youll see that the bullet that is fired takes the shape of a sphere of energy more than a bullet shape. Compare that to the previous shots fired from the same gun in the movie and there you have it. But yeah, nonetheless good talk.

@lucano: Agreed. Cloud is a bamf. Zack is too. But I feel like a battle between the 2 is pretty one-sided in Blondie's favor

@lucano: I'd hardly call that help. All they really did was toss him up to catch up to the flying Bahamut. It was Cloud's power/Climhazzard that killed Bahamut effortlessly. It was only when Cloud came into the picture where there was noticeable damage on Bahamut.

@xxnephilimkingxx: The bullet was amped up by 2-3 materia in yazoo's arm. That was in my original post I believe. Stamina has nothing to do with durability. If one is tired or already shot, that does not make them MORE susceptible to bullets. So Zack being tired or without sleep has no correlation to him not being able to tank the bullets in his chest/head. Like wise with Cloud being stabbed multiple times. And that's not how rain works. In the game, he fought those three Shinra soldiers while it was shining bright in the morning but it began to rain with those last three(dimming the sky and blocking the sun, hence why it looks like night but it isn't), got shot to incap. Lied there and it began to poor. Cloud crawls up they have a bro chat about legacy and hooking Cloud up with Aerith, Zack dies. Rain begins to cease. Clouds move out to reveal sun light. Bam. But the whole ordeal didn't last more than a few hours tops. Id say from the early morning to late afternoon. Of course this is kind of left for interpretation being that no exact times are provided. But logically it makes the most sense. Glad to have a relatively civilized debate. It's abit rare on here at times.

@sithrevenant: How is it cheating. Lol. Cloud omnislashed him and defeated him. Yeah, he was getting dominated throughout the battle, but he held his own. Zack's dead and has no effect on the living plane like Aerith does, being that he is not a Cetra, so basically all Zack did was give him a prep talk. Not really cheating Zack didn't "hand" him anything. You make it seem like the limit break is a friendship necklace or something. Not to mention earlier during the day/previous night he fought both Yazoo/Loz twice, Bahamut SIN, Kadaj twice and then Sephiroth. So I'd say it's pretty impressive on Cloud's part.

@xxnephilimkingxx: Well FFVII was limited to it's technology. So of course feats from CC seem better with pretty cinematics and cutscenes that FFVII didn't have as much leverage with at the time. And all of Cloud's feats from AC are better than Zack's anyways so that point is kinda null.

And I disagree with the point that Cloud would have not gained Zack's skill. He would've still acquired them but just would've found himself much quicker with the help of Zack. So that point is kind of null as well. Cloud's inherited skill from Zack was based off both their memories, he still had those at the time of their escape from Hojo's lab so that leads me to think he would have still developed that skill set.

Character profiles have yet to be desired. Genesis has no feats to back up being Sephiroth's equal in CC. If Sephiroth ragdolled Zack back at the reactor with almost no resistance and Zack defeated Genesis who was cured. How does that make Genesis and Sephiroth equal? In almost any way I have been able to find there is not any source that states Zack received any more enhancements from the procedure to prove that he became stronger. Due to conclusive evidence, it seems he had absolutely no effect to the procedure thus proving my point that CC Sephiroth > CC Genesis.

I understand tanking bullets is a high tier feat, I never said that Zack was "low tier." What I did say was that Cloud got shot in the face at an even closer range than Zack and he only came out with a little knick. As where Zack got hit in the head somewhere and was bleeding profusely afterwards. And he only survived until after the rain not an entire night. Cloud also went right through Bahamut SIN's mega-flare like it was absolutely nothing in AC. While in the previous scenes weaker shots from Bahamut we're leveling buildings. He also shows the ability to levitate off the ground both in FFVII and in AC. Something Zack has never done before. This constitutes with Cloud's speed.

Bringing up the Turks thing doesn't even constitute in the situation being that we haven't even seen them fight other than in AC. Let alone fighting Zack. So we can't assume to discredit their skill just cause. Even so, grabbing a lowball feat from an outdated title is like me grabbing the original confrontation between Zack and the Shinra Infantry.

My points are not one sided either, I'm not biased in this matter. I just as aware of Zack's feats as you seem to be. It's just that I don't think they are in anyway better than Cloud's. Too say Zack was made "ridiculous" just sounds like fandom imo. When Cloud is over here slicing up skyscrapers and such. And Cloud's rate of growth is still much faster than Zack's ever was. Zack is a strong player in FFVII but Cloud is his living legacy. Cloud is better all around. Zack is just a more likable person.

I'm inclined to believe that there is not budging either of us from our respective points of view. I'm all for agreeing to disagree. lol

@xxnephilimkingxx: I'm going to disagree with you here. I don't believe Zack could beat Cloud even if he we're to live after CC. In CC after the Nibelheim incident, both Cloud and Zack were subjected to a modified version of the SOLDIER Procedure which was intended to create a more pure "clone" of Sephiroth. However, Zack being already resistant to new Jenova cells, had no additional effect to his enhancements. Cloud on the other hand, took full effect of the procedure being that he was just an infantry man prior to be subjected to the experiment. Cloud also bathed in the Mako energy for 4+ years, where as the standard procedure for SOLDIER would've been much much quicker. This already places Cloud stronger than Zack in terms of enhancements. This can be shown through their durability. In Crisis Core Zack is riddled with bullets by the end, Where as Cloud in AC was shot point blank in the forehead with nothing but his goggles and only came out with a small scratch. Now it is impossible to tell if the infantry men had access to materia to enhance their bullets similar to what Yazoo did at the end of AC, but I feel it's safe to assume not because they never display such feats in the game as you fight them.

We can also take a look at their track records.

Zack's best feat is that he defeated a de-grading Genesis and Angeal on seperate occasions

Cloud's best feat is defeating Sephiroth on three different occasions.

Sephiroth could take on non-degrading Angeal and Genesis at the same time while still playing around.

When Zack fought Sephiroth he could not last long at all. Sephiroth rag-dolled him. As where Cloud had the sheer willpower to take a fatal blow from Sephiroth and toss his ass into MAKO Reactor seemingly killing him. At least for a little while. BEFORE his enhancements. Now I'm not saying CC Cloud beats Zack because of piss poor ABC logic, but what I am saying is that Cloud in this scene shows immense more potential than Zack ever has as a 2nd Class SOLDIER. And Cloud wasn't even in SOLDIER. Which brings me to my last point.

Now the story of the Buster Sword wielding heroes is one of legacy. A traditional "The Student has Surpassed the Master" Type of story. This was true for Angeal and Zack. Zack surpassed Angeal because Angeal was able to teach Zack everything he knew at a VERY young age. So Zack was able to inherit Angeal's skills and teachings during his late teen years as opppose to Angeal at whatever age he is. Obviously older than Zack, I think it's safe to say atleast in his 30s. Arguing Zack would be stronger than Cloud if he were still alive is like arguing Angeal would be stronger than Zack if he were to still be alive.

Zack in the middle of CC = Angeal

Now it is after Angeal's death and Zack's time of wielding the Buster Sword that he is growing, learning new skills and evidently surpassing his mentor.

However, even after his growth and being at his peak, he still was unable to defeat/match Sephiroth. So we know his limits here.

So let's take Cloud, Cloud was fortunate enough to inherited both Angeal's and Zack's skills at an even younger age than when Zack was able to. Im not sure exact ages but I know he was a few years younger than Zack. And unlike Zack this is DIRECT experience. Being that Cloud's memories and skills are direct copies of Zack. Cloud at this point in time was equal to Zack before his death. This combined with a more potent exposure to MAKO/infusion with Jenova Cells and Cloud's natural talent and potential gave Cloud exponential growth. Enough so to defeat Sephiroth on his own twice possibly three times, both being more powerful than he was in CC. Something Zack failed to do. And in AC he only became stronger.

I'm not saying if Zack we're to still be he wouldn't continue to grow. But Cloud has shown growth much faster than Zack being that the events of Final Fantasy VII are only a month or so. As where Zack had roughly 4 years of training in 3rd and 2nd class and a little over 2 years after being promoted to 1st class to the time of his death excluding the 4 years spent in the MAKO chamber. So Cloud was able to inherit and surpass Zack's 6 years of hardcore training in a single month. And to a level that was able to defeat Sephiroth on his own.

And of course CC Cutscene feats are better than FFVII Cutscenes... Let's wait until the remake to come out to compare more. But as of now, AC feats vs CC Zack Feats are the most fair to base off of.

So those are my 2 cents on the Subject.

CC Cloud <<< Zack

FFVII Cloud>> Zack

FFVII:AC >>>>>>>>> Zack

is how I see it.

I like Zack as much as the next guy. But I'm aware that Cloud would be the victor in any case if they we're to fight on equal playing fields. Cloud outclasses the SOLDIER First Class.

@theonewhoknows: Great analysis. I'm willing to concur with that. However, I'm always iffy on that specific scenerio between Dick and Bruce being that, from the scans, it doesn't seem Bruce is going all out to win. No specific forms of martial arts shown, nerve strikes ect. that really displayed his true h2h skills. Of course the same can be said for Dick, but the fight looked more like a brawl more than anything else. But I agree Tchalla and Dick get a slight majority based on what you stated above.

From what I have seen, Shan seems to be more impressive in combat. Granted I know little about Shaak Ti.