nightwingism

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@glaucus:

Kory - Starfire In a CBR Batman board poll in regards to Dick's soulmate, I voted for Barbara but now I have regrets.

After watching Teen Titans animated movies , Teen Titans vs. Justice League and Judas Contract, I prefer Kory being hooked by the latter movie. And after going back and reading some of the New Titans comic books and realized how long and deep their romantic / relationship history is, I totally change my mind and wished that I voted for Kory on CBR poll.

I chose Barbara because I was more familiar with her and thought that Kory didn't fit well with Dick because she was an alien with no secret identity. But I changed my mind and think that I was being too narrowminded. And any poll that I see for now on, I am going to vote for Kory. I hope that they get reunited in the comics.

I also want to add that I think Starfire is one of those characters that a lot of people misunderstand.

They give too much of a sexual emphasis on her, and I think that it's because of her attire as a superhero. With this, people have gone to to refer to her as a wholesome version of a prostitute, or being a nympho, and you can't forget the slut names too.

What I gathered from the comics that I read, is that she was designed to be an outerspace version of Red Sonja -- being an alien warrior princess who was enslaved for 6 years, force to endure horrible pain (physical and emotional). She escaped from a slave ship and was recaptured, but the Teen Titans rescued her. On her planet Tamaran, people are barely dressed, which goes along with the fact that she's a solar-powered being. The Sun gives her strength and power and her star-bolt power came from torturing experimentation by her slavemasters. I think some people don't understand the character and just judge her by her appearance, which is a crime, because there is a lot more to her than what she's wearing. She is actually very smart along with being strong, tough, brave, fierce, loyal, deep, emotional, sensitive, caring, and compassionate. Most of all, she is a survivor. What didn't kill her made her stronger.

She has been shown to have an extreme resistance to physical pain and immense willpower. She had a lot of aggression in her because of her past as a slave and her training as a warrior. As a Tamaranian, she lives through her passions and emotions, and she helped Dick with those. The Teen Titans cartoon doesn't touch on the traumatic,abusive past like the comics do. Tales of the Teen Titans #4 is a comic issue about Kori/Starfire's past.

-----

Sorry, I needed to fix that. It was bugging me.

But you, for the most part, are right. Kory is such an underrated character who people like to thrust sexual desires onto because she was "the bombshell" of the NTT group. Her looks were played up for easy jokes, being naive about Earthly customs and what not. But, as you mentioned, she is so much more than appearances.

But I don't think her being a great, yet underrated character is a reason that she and Dick are meant to be together. Though, I do agree that I would love to see the two of them have some kind of relationship again. There needs to be a reason why they get together - there needs to be a story behind it. I don't want to just start reading a comic and it's bam. They are dating. Because the fans preferred her over Babs.

I need to be able to see Kory and Dick reconcile their differences and be like "you know, we had it great. But we should take this slow. Because we know how it went, and how it ended. And now that we are older, we know how to do this properly" sort of situation.

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@robinst34742389:

  • nah babs is dull boring. i can't really sense a dynamic between her and dick and shes actually a no good for dick as she only ties him down to batman, it's all retcon and seems forced,while with kori everything makes more sense, it's more interesting and fun and dick can be his own man.so i really hope he wouldn't get together with babs just not her cuz it's boring jesus.
  • starfire is more interesting and beneficial for dick. she makes more sense as she keeps him miles away from batman while batgirl is annoying boring bitch who copied batmans cowl then pretend shes cool, shes gonna be tying him down to batman. if nightwing really wanted to get away from bruce shadow why would he batman's female version? so im on for starfire. batgirl is wack
  • yeah they were supposed to ended up happily together , until the batoffice took control over dick and ruined their relationship in favor of that retcon dumb boring babs. the most bland and stupid relationship i've ever known.

Seems like you REALLY hate Babs as a character, and not just as a love interest. And yeah, sure, you can say Kori is better or so-and-so is more whatever. Or that Babs is boring as a character. It's all opinion based on these fictional characters, but some of your points aren't very good.

For starters, Dick and Babs have a great dynamics. Babs is witty, sarcastic, smart, and has an energy that is able to play off, and work with, Dick - who is also witty, sarcastic and smart. Chuck Dixon had a fantastic, hang-it-in-the-rafters run that demonstrated just that. Spent the good chunk of 40 issues building them up. And it was great!

Second of all, Babs doesn't "tie Dick down to Batman" since Dick as a character inadvertently will tie himself down to Batman. Being the first Robin and the two-time successor of the cowl really does a number to a self identity. However, it isn't a bad thing to be tied down to the BatFamily. That's what he is part of, where he started. But he's still his own character. He isn't being held against his will or anything. It's like when you grow up and move out of your parents house. You are still family, and sometimes you have to go help your mom move furniture, but you have your own house, and your own problems to deal with that may or may not be without them. Or even in conflict with them. In a stretch of logic, you can say that Kori would tie Dick down to the Teen Titans.

Third, most of it isn't a retcon. They had a flirtatious relationship during the Batman Family series, as well as in shared story arcs. However, that ended when The New Teen Titans started and Dick was taken out of the Bat Books. He stayed with Kori and grew as a person, and changed in positive ways. Then they broke up, Dick went to Blüdhaven, and slowly started a relationship with Babs again - but this time more seriously. Everything was pretty natural. The only real retcon was presented in Nightwing Annual #2 which a lot of fans tend to ignore to the characters being weirdly out-of-character.

Fourth, Kori does make a lot of sense. She truly does. I like to think of Kori as that girl who shows you the world, introduces you to things you like, things you don't like, and really makes you see what type of person you want to spend the rest of your life with, and hell - she might be the one that you want. But at this moment in you life, she isn't. She isn't the one for you. For now anyways. But you know for sure that you'll always love her. And who knows, in the future the stars might align and point you in her direction once again. Because she was the girl who really took you to that next level in life. Who held your hand and said "we will take this road together, and figure out where it may lead us. Where ever that may be." And the two of them together really was interesting and fun. The dynamic between the two are great - in a different way than Dick and Babs' dynamic for sure. Kori helped Dick become his own man, in a way I don't think Babs could have at the time. But I don't think that was really because Kori kept Dick away from Bruce - Dick did that all by himself. It was more of the fact that Kori opened Dick's eyes and showed him a different path.

(Due to the nature of comics, we have no idea if he ever would have became his own person if not for the works of George Perez and Marv Wolfman. Who, using Kori AND Adrian Chase as a vehicle, grew a young Robin into a full adult before our eyes.)

Finally, Barbara isn't an "annoying boring bitch who copied Bruce's cowl and then pretends she's cool." She was a serious crime fighter who saw injustice and was inspired by a man who dressed up at night and beat the living snot out of evildoers, and worked along side her dad nightly - who also highly respected the man. She wasn't privileged like Bruce, and wasn't driven by this tragic event. She was a high schooler who was like "hey - that's not cool. And I have the power to stop this. I'm gonna try my best." And she did. She might not be the most skilled Batgirl, with the likes of Cass in the ranks, but she was able to hold her own for sure. Babs worked the cowl, put in the work, and then retired. People forget that Batgirl actually retired before she was shot by the Joker. Which - in of itself - would have been an excuse to never be in the business again. But NOPE. Got surgery, got the wheelchair, and she went to WORK. She became a completely NEW superhero as Oracle, who helped the Suicide Squad, formed the Birds of Prey, and became the eyes and ears for Batman who relied on her heavily during the later years. Her character evolution is one of the best in the Bat-Family, contending with the Robins, especially considering the circumstances she had to go through in order to get where she was. She doesn't pretend she's cool - heavens no. She's a grade A dork but with enough self confidence and willpower to do the hard work without the baggage that Bruce or Dick have.

TLDR; Babs isn't a bad characters and can have, and has had, a great relationship with Dick, but Kori is also great. But this is all fictional so it doesn't even matter - the writers and editors are the only ones who get to pick who gets with who.

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The purpose of this New Topic is just to get an idea of what people really want to see going forward at this stage in the Nightwing series, seeing as we are almost at the 2 year mark and gotten a sense of what Rebirth entails and where some of the stories have gone.

While I really like what our writers have done with our Boy in Blue, I personally would really like them to settle Dick into a role outside of the suit. Put a focus on his personal life and what he does outside the suit. What Seeley was doing was great, he had a life outside the suit that resembled his circus life with all the colorful people in the Run-Offs, but that went away with Humphries run which focused more on a mission (a great read none the less).

The idea that Dick is an owner of a cross-fit gym is pretty great, and I hope that continues for a while. But we need to see more of that. Give Dick the Peter Parker treatment, and make the job an important part of the story, such as the photography is to Spider-Man.

Expand upon, and keep, Dick's supporting cast. Just in the short time Dick's been in Blüdhaven, his supporting cast has grown a lot - but I feel like writers of Dick just keep pushing the cast aside in place of their own people. We saw that in the past, and we see that with Humphries, and tbd of Percy. The only one who seems to be a staple is the Detective who is seemingly shaping up to serve as a "Commissioner Gordon" type character. Which I like.

Dick should live in an apartment, interact with his neighbors, and keep a job where he interacts with co-workers and / or clients.

That is just my 2 cents, and I think it'd be real cool to see what others think. What would you guys like or wish to see in future Nightwing issues?

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We really only saw Dick as Robin during the 40s - Early 80s. And during those times, characters really didn't have fleshed out personalities as we see today, especially the first decade or so. Most of them were one-note "I'm a hero, and I save people but I have THIS character trait alongside that".

With Dick, he was the hero who saved people, but as a kid so he was allowed to make jokes, and fail from time to time. He was serious when needed to be serious, quippy when the situated allowed him to be, tough on himself due to the pressure of being Batman's sidekick / partner and couldn't live with the idea of failing anyone. Emphasis on the tough on himself part. But he was a happy kid. Think of Batman's personality, but was able to flash a smile easier, and give quippy one-liners that weren't dry.

If you're doing a report on all the Robins, you must already have some information, since you know that there are different ones to begin with. So for Dick - was in the circus for his childhood. Don't know what else you really need to know? Old comics didn't deal too much with the civvies life, but more so on the hero life.

Weaponry and skills? As far as comics go, he was skilled with every weapon, and had as much skill needed to save the day. Bo staff, escrima sticks, batarangs, and just projectiles in general for weaponry. There is a skill list listed on the "character wiki" portion of the Dick Grayson page, which basically say - Detective, stealth, acrobatics, fighting prowess, escape artist, intelligent, leadership, and willpower. There's probably more like "insanely rich" and "good looking" which aren't really skills to begin with, some most superheroes are portrayed as both or either one or the other

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I have to admit, I liked most of what you put down. It sounds great.

Venue

My ideal Nightwing has Blüdhaven. Blüdhaven is treated as the Ugly Step-Sister to the Two "Golden Children" of the East Coast - Gotham and Metropolis. Going along with what's going on now in the comics, Blüdhaven is a tourist driven trap, with lights and shine that rival Vegas, but an old-Blüdhaven district where we see the Dixon run landscape. The "scarier than Gotham" type. Blüdhaven I feel should be Nightwing's place. His home base. The association should be instant, such as Gotham and Batman.

Basically, turn Blüdhaven into the kind of city you want, while keeping Blüdhaven as the city it is.

My idea for his living arrangement is similar to that of Daredevil in the netflix shows. He has a nice double decker loft with roof access. He either keeps all his gear in a wooden box, or just a backpack. We don't need a mannequin type thing that the batcave has. He's much more of a "pull of his sweatshirt to reveal his suit underneath" than a "sends a droid to his location that is carrying his suit" imo.

Job

We've seen him do a plethora of jobs, from a bartender, to cop, to model, to personal trainer, gym instructor, museum curator. But I feel like all his jobs are one and done type. Nothing seems permanent. I use to really like the idea of Officer Grayson, but recently I've developed a love the idea of him being a teacher (no way inspired by my own drive to be a teacher). A high school teacher, teaching history (a subject he loves). With that job, it keeps him close to the people of Blüdhaven, puts him in the role he's kind of always been - a bridge between the old and new generation, as well as being able to interact with a load of different people.

Teacher by Day and Neon Demon by Night.

Allies

My idea of allies are people who show up in comics very frequently, similar to how Black Canary is in the current (and fantastic) Green Arrow stories going on. So who do I want to be in my stories that often?

I really want to bring back Lori Elton - Dick's college girlfriend. Most of his relationships somehow involve his superhero life eventually. Babs, Starfire, Helena, Raya, Sonia, Shawn to name a few. I think he should have a person who isn't connected to his superhero life in anyway, and is just a person whom he can share a romantic relationship with, like the old superhero comics of days past.

The second person I really want to bring into the Nightwing books is Jimmy Olsen. I know, I know - Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen in a Nighwing book? What? But hear me out. Jimmy and Dick have been friends since the Robin days. They had their own headquarters for pete's sake. In World's Finest team ups, the two of them would unite alongside the Big 2. They have a friendship. And with Jimmy being less prominent in Superman stories of the present, why not share the character? It'd be easy to take him from Metropolis - he wants a promotion to be a writer, and with Perry White's stamp of approval, he's able to travel to Blüdhaven to get scoops or whatever. This allows him to be in both areas, and in all those books, while making it make sense, as well as furthering the character.

And finally, Guppy. Because Sam Humphries is putting him in the books, and he seems like such a cute character, that I want to keep him if I were ever fortunate enough to write the books.

Villains

There are a lot of villains I want for Nightwing's stories. I want him to have a rogue gallery that invokes the same awe and inspiration that Batman's, Flash's, and Spider-Man's do. He's been around for 75+ years, and most of his gallery has either been taken away and given to other people (Lady Vic), or is highly debated as to where he actually belongs to (Deathstroke). But for all intents and purposes, these are who I would like.

Deathstroke

Raptor

Blockbuster

Lady Vic

Crazy Quilt

The Judge (Sam Humphries new character)

And I agree, Dick needs someone that completely goes against his morals. Someone that is all about lying and manipulation. A new character that is all Dick. Because we can have King Faraday, but he's much more of a world power / all around pain in the ass, than a singular hero's villain.

Paraphernalia

Same list as yours basically, but I would like to add the wing gliders that he had in BTAS and in the Night of the Monster Men crossover. Similar to Spider-Man web-wings. I thought those were the coolest and it just makes him seem more agile for me somehow. And lets say his glider were to go down, and his grappling gun has been taken away, he'd have a backup.

Reoccurring Characters

The Batfamily

The Titans

Birds of Prey

Superman and Family (I'll raise you the cool uncle, and put down the impressionable older cousin, or your best friend's cool older brother)

The Teen Titans

The Justice League

Side Notes

Dick is, by his nature, VERY similar and vastly different from Bruce. They have the same goals, the same thought process, and the same training. But Dick was a kid when he started as a hero. His pain hasn't stuck with him for as long as Bruce. And by thus ,they have different approaches, with the same outcome. The books have to address this.

I know people hate the idea, but he's the younger Batman who you'd want to drink a beer with, and would WANT to hang out with. He's a funny guy, and people are attracted to him. His mind and body.

Dick is a person people can trust, someone that just personifies the ideals of hope, with the willpower to see his goals through. And that's important. You want Dick to have his "thing", Batman with Justice, Wonder Woman with Truth, and Superman with Hope but the thing is, Dick's thing is that he's an amalgamation of the "Big 3".

I have this idea that goes alongside that statement. That the bird on his chest is a small homage to Wonder Woman. That the name he goes by is a homage to the story that Superman told him. That his costume he wears is a homage to the suit that Batman wears.

What Dick is, is the leader of the DC Universe. The undisputed leader. When he said Go, anyone that can hear him goes. And he got to be where he is, because he was that 10 year old boy who rode around alongside Batman, fighting off killer Clowns, a personified murderous mother nature, a human crocodile, and a man who uses fear as a weapon as easily as a gun. A 10 year old boy who went on deep space missions with Superman. 10 year old boy who fought alongside Wonder Woman and the Justice League. Who led multiple incarnations of the Teen Titans, the Outsiders, the Justice League.

And, thinking of that in universe, it's crazy. People already respect Batman for doing what he's doing. Image the respect people give towards the kid who's a little more than half Batman's age, and still doing what he's doing. And being able to hold his own. And then being able to grow up, being in this business for 15 years (pre-reboot) and just being able to crush it.

I'm rambling at this point, but the point I'm trying to get across is that Dick is a leader, and the book really has to show that he can lead people on a death mission, and people would gladly follow him, because they trust him enough to know they'd be able to make it out alive.

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#6  Edited By nightwingism

@eto said:

Nightwing is solid book. Seeley is killin it.

Can't say the same thing about King with his Batman smh,

Man i've been gone a long time lol but i've been keeping track of Nightwing's current series and I agree for the most part. There have been some missteps in my opinion, such as the way the entire business with Shawn has gone down, but overall i've continued to enjoy this series above the rest of the Bat books and it remains the one Bat book that I have yet to drop.

There was so much build up for Shawn as a character and love interest, it's strange that it kind of just ended. I knew it wouldn't last, but I'm just surprised it only lasted as long as it did.

The characters are all awesome, and I've grown to really like Raptor as a character.

But I don't think the other Bat books are bad, in terms of quality

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Eh, he's not really that promiscuous, though he's a womanizer.

From what I've read, he has had some nights.

Pre-52

Barbra Gordon

Koriand'r

Huntress

Liu(lost his virginity too)

Mirage(disguised as Starfire)

Raven(They had connected, realistic dream sex due to Raven's powers....if that counts....XD)

Tarantula("Non-consensual" Sex -.-)

New 52

Raya Vestri

Koriand'r

He's not a slut.....but he does sleep around. He doesn't go and seek it, though. It sorta....just happens. XD He's portrayed to me more of a womanizer. This could be the result of those thinking Bruce and Richard both were homosexuals back in the day. Also, his lovelife is messy. It started out like that from Liu, who used him. Then he got with Kori.....things went sour. He had other girlfiend...but then came Barbral, Huntress, and Tarantula. Tarantula was infactuated with him and Huntress was attracted to him., even though Dick's heart lies with Barbra Gordon more.

Those are pretty much his most prominent love interests he's slept with.

You forgot Lori Elton, Dick's college girlfriend, and Cheyenne Freemont, the modeling agent who turned into Female Nightwing.

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@eto said:

Nightwing is solid book. Seeley is killin it.

Can't say the same thing about King with his Batman smh,

I disagree, King's Batman is a long con story that only gets better as you read the story as a whole, rather in parts. It's not a good formula for the "in demand satisfying" stories that comics are kind of known for, but for the long fan, and this 2 a month kind of system, it works decently well.

It has its weird moments, sure, but I feel like the characterization and the interesting plot is there

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@redwingx said:

When I said Titan Hunt, I meant Titans which is a sequel to Titan Hunt. The characters there literally exist only in in that book and don't get referenced outside of it. That's the very definition of dead. Wally has been replaced by Kanye West and Aqualad too by Aqualad Brown in the largest dc universe. At least other chars do get referenced, especially in their own goddamn myth, Nathanielly Chris handsome.

Damian is the one leading the real Teen Titans, by real I mean the ones who are relevant that DC care about.

Face it guys, Dick is doomed to be this Batman lite character. Hes either a Batman wannabe or some Archer wannabe.

How are we supposed to know that when you say Titan Hunt, that you aren't referring to Titan Hunt but in fact Titans?

Nightwing has been shown in every Batbook, Birds of Prey, Teen Titans, Deathstroke, and recently Green Arrow. Donna Troy, in Rebirth, has only been in Titans, Teen Titans, and Deathstroke, but before Rebirth was featured in Wonder Woman heavily. Wally West has been featured in The Flash, Teen Titans, Titans, and Deathstroke. Roy Harper has been featured in Green Arrow, Titans, Teen Titans, and Deathstroke. Garth and Omen both have only been in Titans, Teen Titans, and Deathstroke.

To me, that seems pretty big, considering people like the Flash has only been in The Flash, Justice League, and Titans.

Calling Wally West and Jackson Hyde "Kanye West" and "Aqualad Brown" is a pretty racist statement, and I'm hoping you won't refer to these characters like that again. Wally West II is a great character, that brings a new dynamic to the flash family. Not impulsive like Bart, not the light-heartedness of Wally. He's a great character. And Jackson Hyde is finally returning to the Aqualad role he claimed PRE-FLASHPOINT, and getting a pretty cool story arc to himself in the next few issues of Teen Titans.

The only two who "don't get referenced in their own goddamn myth" is Garth and Omen, which again makes since, since those two really never got the lime light in comics ever. Dick, Wally, Donna, and Roy all get their due. Heck, if we are going to add to it, Karen and Mal aren't getting their references but their "Myth" is just the Titans, so they're getting along pretty fine.

Yes Damian is leading the real "TEEN" Titans, but the TITANS aren't Teens anymore, they are adults, and such as the past two Titans titles they've had in the past (first by Devin Grayson and second by Judd Winick). I don't know why you'd want a 20 something year old man leading a bunch of teenagers. How is that going to help the character move forward, especially since in that scenario, he'd just be delegated to a commanding behind the scenes leader role ala Nick Fury.

Face is Red, Dick is a much larger character than his team or his family, and shouldn't be defined by who he associates with in other titles. He is Dick Grayson, Nightwing, the first Robin, and the second Batman. Not a Batman Light, and not an Archer Wannabe (which I really don't get, since Grayson totally doesn't follow Archer at all. Like there is no comparison you can make between the two that would remotely make any sense besides general appearance)