@ryuuzakiscorpio: Alright well I didn't really know what you meant so I just replied to everything you posted. Sorry for the accusations though.
newcomer's forum posts
@ryuuzakiscorpio: Alright let's get to it.
Counters: (Pt 2)
"Mighty Guy movement, reactions and combat speed were Sub-Relativistic, and he is the only character in Naruto to demonstrate such feat so far in the manga and that's debatable but for the sake of moving on, i won't, because i don't want to waste time on a loop. First of all Naruto cannot be power scale to him, therefore he's still MHS+ in movement and combat with Lightspeed reactions which can be debatable. But i'll let then be for now. Making Kaguya's reactions Lightspeed."
First of all he distorted space making it a relativistic attack, second he isn't the only one to move at relativistic speeds, as naruto dodged a confirmed light speed attack and moved to overpower an attack that crossed the diameter of the moon in seconds.
Both of these make naruto at least relativistic+ in combat and light speed in reactions, meaning kaguya the person who casually dodges his attacks is also at least relativistic in combat and light speed in reactions.
"Now for Kaguya she did block Naruto's attack in that scan, but you left out that:
Kaguya was fighting at the time hundreds of Naruto's clones at once, she easily destroy the first ones and the ones that follow manage to tag her in close combat but she was easily overrun and escaped to her dimension even with her Lightspeed reactions, she escaped from MHS+ clones."
Tagging her would imply she got hit but as shown in the scans she blocks every single attack from thousands of clones of naruto until she gets overrun by thousands of clones with relativistic combat speed. Still a very good feat.
"Were you about to say that they couldn't react to him? Madara surely couldn't see him, but Naruto could and that's a teleportation technique not a speed feat. In the scan we also see Kaguya escaping from a MHS+ character, with the help of her Reactions which are power scale from Naruto. That doesn't make Sasuke or her faster than light, or near it. There has been other moments when Naruto, Kakashi and Sasuke were able to tag Kaguya as well. As an example i'll use this one"
I literally finished the sentence after I posted the scans. Madara reacted to night guy a relativistic attack but couldn't react to sasuke meaning Sasuke must have been moving at least relativistic+ speeds. Also teleportation doesn't make it any less fast, so something Naruto the guy who DODGED a confirmed light speed attack couldn't dodge sasuke's teleportation blitz but kaguya could. This means since kaguya could casually dodge it she has at least light speed combat speed and ftl reactions.
"I concede to the fact that they all been surprise attacks, but she is still around the category of MHS+ just above Naruto and Sasuke. She also had to seperate both Sasuke and Naruto (MHS+), to take them on, because of their Hax combine and it was Black Zetsu's idea: (She is not very bright with tactics either)"
I don't get why you keep saying mhs, when did you actually disprove the speeds they were moving at, you conceded naruto dodged light fang but he still had to move, making it combat speed as well. If it was only his reactions he would have known it was coming but be unable to move like madara did with night guy.
"The Beam he intercepted was throw directly at him, making use of his Lightspeed reactions, is a nice feat for his base. Base on the speed it's nowhere near Sub-Relativistic or Lightspeed or he should had reach Toneri's position in no less than a second, since they were very close to each other. And this happen years later, after the defeat of Kaguya. This Naruto is more powerful than the one that fought Kaguya, so no backwards power scaling for Kaguya either."
Yes he did use his reactions but he still had to move his body to intercept the attack:
In the words of Rock lee even if you know something is coming if your body can't move it doesn't matter. Naruto was able to move his body to react to a relativistic attack, this means in base he was relativistic in combat speed. The reason he didn't reach him immediately is because he was holding back an attack that CUT the moon in half in base so I am sure it would slow him down. That's not even mentioning no time frame was given either meaning it could have happened in a fraction of a second for all we know. Base naruto isn't stronger than So6p naruto with all nine bijuu powers, I am sure you know that.
"Any feats from the movies isn't valid for Kaguya, because it happen afterwards. Unless you have solid evidence that she can be scale from it."
How is it not valid, naruto did it in a much weaker form than the one he fought kaguya in, unless you wanna debate So6p naruto with both arms and all nine bijuu is weaker than base naruto.
"And in no way shape or form Madara reacted to Might Guy, he barely saw him coming and he couldn't even move out of the way.
I can agree with the rest."
Again with qouting rock lee, reactions isn't combat speed, madara was able to react and deduce that guy was distorting space but his body couldn't move fast enough to stop it. This means he easily has relativistic reactions.
"Power Scaling from a movie that happen years after Kaguya's was defeated, from his base cannot be power scale to Kaguya."
Again why not? Naruto did it in a much weaker form than the one he fought kaguya in.
During that time Naruto's base punches can only do this:
That tree tanked a island level attack with no damage, yet naruto put massive cracks and craters in it in base, you basically just proved kaguya has island level physical strength since she was able to overpower him in a stronger form.
"While in base Yhwach can do this with one finger, and the hole he left where he killed Yamamoto:"
I will say it is impressive but Yammamoto turned his back on Yhwach and let his guard down, not to mention it isn't using physical strength it is energy projections or dc.
"I'll concede to this part, fair enough she is multi mountain level+"
Thanks for the concession. :)
"But that won't be a problem for Yhwach, Kenpachi has also destroy a meteor and he is weaker than Yhwach, he even got wrecked by an elite Quincy and this feat:"
Do you have any scans or proof that Yhwach has greater physical strength than kenpachi? I know he can beat him but that isn't the same as having equal stats, please post scans to show him being physically superior to Kenpachi.
"Ichigo's "casual" swings were evaporating mountains around him. That's Mountain+ and they were "s" in plural making it at least Multi Mountain+."
That was dangai ichigo, a form he lost after aizens defeat and he has NEVER shown a feat like it since then. That's not to mention that they aren't even the size of actual mountains, since trees are nearly as tall as a quarter of the "mountains."
"Yhwach can easily parry Ichigo's blows with his cape, like they were nothing:
Yhwach explains to him that he gain the strength of Dangai Ichigo's level again with his true shikai. Yet he parrys it with his clothes:"
He can parry ichigo's attacks but he didn't gain dangai ichigo level strength, heck yorouichi outright says its a trick to try and confuse ichigo meaning he is lying and he didn't parry mountain level strikes:
"She tanked those attack and afterwards she became unstable, in that form she regenerated the arm that Naruto cut from her and began to prep her ESTB for erasing the dimension."
It's true she did become unstable but that is because she was being overwhelmed by Naruto, Sasuke, and Kakashi. Yhwach can't produce over multi continental level attacks to start overwhelming her so she will not become unstable.
"It also takes at least 3-4 times before she runs out of chakra and has to retrive to her main dimension.
While Yhwach can just spam it:
Link to my other thread here:
Whoa were did you you get that idea. NOWHERE in the manga is this stated that she will run out chakra after 4 times. In fact the manga shows the exact opposite, she travels through her dimensions over 10 times easily, while fighting naruto, trying to make the army of Zetsu's, and make aan expansive truth seeking ball that was said to be able to destroy a world. So no she will not run out of chakra in 4 times and in fact she has insane amounts of chakra after dimension hopping.
"Alright, even so they are too slow for Yhwach, Naruto could easily dodge them the scan you show is followed by a chapter were his plan was set in motion, he purposely let the clone get hit by it:"
Too slow, it consistently tags naruto's clones which mind you have relativistic+ combat speed and light speed reactions:
Yhwach doesn't even have feats to suggest he could react to it.
"Yhwach also has: (from the letters)
- Can create Shadow Portals in seconds
- Aversion Field
Again I will need scans showing Yhwach can and will use these abilities in an in character battle. If not it is just baseless assumptions.
"And their durability isn't that great they easily tarnished a part with Sasuke's Susano'o at activation point, while Yhwach has blut to protect his body as well:"
Are you serious, did you even look at the whole of my opening post? Those are Kaguya's hair needles, a completely different ability you tried to pass off as Yhwach being able to survive which he can't.
"With Blut Vene Yhwach can extend this defence outside of his body in a protective forcefield that consumes everything in close proximity in order to fuel the technique."
Scans to suggest it could resist ash killing bones as the ability you posted is kaguya's hair needles not the same thing. It bypassed naruto's clones and even regen. One hit and lights out for Yhwach.
"Kaguya only show to be able to use a ETSB not TSB and since they are in character she won't rely on that, even do it was shown that when a TSB is destroy it remains that way. Kaguya had none during her fight. But i'll let it pass."
Alright I will concede to this, kaguya hasn't shown to use tsb in character, just Etsb.
Everything else seems good. Your turn.
"Yhwach possesses the speed advantage over her with Sub-Relativistic (with low-ball) speed, reactions and movements, with that said he can't react to her light speed reactions, but his Bankai if enough to deal with that: (not counting his other hax abilities)"
On the contrary, Kaguya hilds a distinct speed advantage with light speed combat speed and ftl reactions. Those calcs use not only fan made (thus non cannon) numbers and distances (ichibei calc)they didn't even give a distance to actually suggest they are anywhere near the speed they suggested(mimihagi calc)
"Naruto, Sasuke, Kakashi and Sakura had a problem with swing down on lava for 3 whole chapters, so PIS doesn't count for their human body durability, Susano'o or chakra cloths are not included just their normal bodies."
Actually it is partially PIS, as naruto in KCM got only slightly burned from Roshi's lava attacks and sasuke in ribcage susanoo tanked lava and acid attacks no problem, although I can't say the same for kakashi and sakura. Also I don't get how this applies to kaguya it is her dimension, she tanked amaterasu and a lava rasenshuriken.
"Even if it was PIS they were hurt by Kunai's and swords before, i have to either downplayed which i don't want to, since we have seen then tank nukes (bijudama's)"
Please post a scan of naruto in So6p mode or susanoo sasuke getting hurt by kunai as it has never happened since the pain arc for naruto. Again how does this apply to kaguya? She tanked multi continental level attacks.
"or accept the fact that their "energy" isn't as strong as the real thing, but that would imply that Sage Art: Storm Release Light Fang isn't lightspeed, because in away is still connected to chakra energy. Same goes for Bleach there are light based attacks and they are not lightspeed why because the energy is a pseudo energy but i could argue that is real light with two ways, show you the scan where it's stated that is not reishi (the energy) or use reishi as a base since reishi comes from nature as well."
Alright let's look at this, first Light fang uses natural energy not chakra therefore can't be held at the same limitations as normal chakra. Second, it is canon confirmed by kishimoto himself that it is a lightspeed attack, so there really is no arguing against the author. In bleach the attacks use reishi and are not natural just like regular ninjutsu but not only that people like the auincy refer to their techniques as light but no one in bleach has said anything was LIGHT SPEED.
Lava burns at:
2,120 F inside a Volcano which is 1,160 C that would had kill team 7 according to PIS, even do they tanked nukes before with chakra and tail beasts cloths, which shouldn't be any problem for them."
Only two of team 7 as naruto and sasuke have tanked lava attacks before.
"Kaguya take a direct Amateratsu: (Which burns as hot as the sun itself)
Kishimoto didn't specify a number. So we go with a low-ball like with do with everything, google says that the sun's temperature normally is:
5,778 K which is 5,504 C"
I don't see a problem here.
"Now Yamamoto's Bankai, doesn't only show feats and exposition but it also gives us a number:
15 Million Degree C as hot as the sun's core, which is 27 Million Degree F."
As stated before, there is no way his bankai is actually that hot. Here are some reasons, no one can touch his supposed 15 million degree bankai, yet the ground itself isn't even burned. Not to mention when his sword touched the ground with the suns temperature it would have done a lot more than create a fissure and evaporate moisture. So no, by feats his bankai is extremely below the heat of the sun. This is all considering you can provide scans to suggest he can and will use this ability.
"Kaguya cannot see the flames and she won't be able to get near him with her guard down, even with lightspeed reactions, she has never tanked something this hot before."
If you can provide scans to suggest he can and will use this, it still won't be a problem since it has no feats to say it is as hot as yammamoto says it is.
- His Hax are beyond Kaguya's.
If you can provide scans to suggest he can use all the abilities you say he can I will concede to him having more versatile attacks but Kaguya's are one hit kills so she is still more hax.
- "He possesses strength beyond shattering multiple mountains, even his cape is a mountain tanker."
Yorouichi confirms that he is lying so no he is extremely below kaguya's ISLAND level strength, considering he has no feats saying he is mountain level.
- Yhwach's may not possess much durability feats right now, but he's Hax makes for it.
His hax (blut vein, until you prove he can use the letters and bankai) has no feats to suggest it could help him survive a single hit from kaguya.
Both The Wind and The X Axis are enough to nullify attacks.
Again scans to suggest he can and will use these abilities in character. If you can prove this scans to suggest it could stop kaguya's attacks.
- "His hax are precog, future sight into all possible futures, nigh-omniscient, immunity to all powers, stealing powers (he has like 3 ways of doing this),dimensional travel, and etc."
This will help him predict kaguya's attacks but he has no feats to suggest he could stop or steal Kaguya's powers.
"I'm not fond on how Kaguya keeps getting her powers stolen over the series, but they do have a history of being stolen. Even the Chibaku Tensei performed once by Hagoromo and his brother and then by himself along with Naruto and Sasuke sealed her up, nullifying her abilities."
Kaguya has NEVER had her powers stolen, this is a blatant lie. Chibaku tensei is sealing and one of the strongest ones in the series as it seals you in a new moon with your enemy as the gravity core. This is not power stealing it is sealing and even if it was Yhwach has no feats to suggest he could steal Kaguya's powers.
This should be enough for a warn off, your turn and Good Luck.
Thanks for waiting and good luck to you, I await your final post.
@ryuuzakiscorpio: sorry I can't fit all my counters in one post so please wait for both counter posts before continuing. Please and thank you.
"Let's start with Yhwach's first fight against Ichibei, in his base form Yhwach was able to fight almost on par with Ichibei.Which is mach 3585.27 for IchibeiNot Sub-relativistic, just plain MHS+ i won't use the T5F speed calc for this."
First let me say I read the link. Alright I want to know how ichibei is hypersonic, no scans were used, no powerscaling or statements from other characters what proves he is hypersonic? The calc used there own fanmade distance which was nnever even hinted at in any cannon source, making it 2 things- non cannon meaning not relevant here and wrong, pixel scaling based on someones drawings which as you know kubo doesn't always draw things the right size. so not hypersonic unless you have scans or an actual distance suggesting this.
With a 20 minute assume frame (which is a huge lowball) he is Mach 14616.43+, or Sub-Relativistic. (0.0166c)"
i read the link again but it didn't give me a distance that mimihagi crossed in 20 minutes, if she crossed a state in 20 minutes this is extremely unimpressive, although this one actually used feats it didn't really give me a distance so nothing really makes him or Yhwach even hypersonic based on what you said.
"Raw strength doesn't matter in debates is the force of striking an enemy which matters but just incase i'll leave here: (This feat only applies if Yhwach has all of his powers, assuming all the Quincy's are dead. I will explain further in the power and abilities section).With the Power of the Letter "P" The Power-Yhwach should be able to lift at least this much: (There's also another ability which doubles his power) more in the ability section."
I actually don't see anything wrong with this one other than is it passive or does he willingly activate it, if he does need to activate it I will need proof he would actually use it.
In the Destructive capability Yhwach is Moon level after absorbing the Soul King.
He lifted the whole Vandenreich/Wandenreich which cover all of Seireitei in the second invasion, from the dimension above it, in a short period of time without lifting a finger:"
I don't even wanna know how you got this one, first they use a fanmade speed and distance supplying no scans to suggest it WHATSOEVER, they next made it a dc feat when really it's a strength feat because he LIFTED it not destroyed anything. It was shown in the manga the vandereich is about seiretei's size so lets use the ACTUAL MANGA to find its size.
Youruichi says it takes 10 days to go to each gate of the seiretei so
How big is the seireitei.
each of Seireitei's gates is supposedly a 10 day walk apart. For the sake of simplicity, I'm going to proceed under the assumption that Seireitei is essentially a circle with four equidistant points along its perimeter, and that walking distance means taking the most direct path from one gate to another (ie., traveling along the perimeter). That means 40 days of walking to start at a given gate, travel the circumference of Seireitei, and return to the same gate.
Average walking speed for a human is 5 km/h. We'll say that if you're walking, you'll be taking breaks to eat, rest your muscles, take care of your bodily functions, sleep, etc. We'll be conservative and say that you'll spend 6 hours walking.
5 km/h * 6 h/day = 30 km/day
circumference of Seireitei = 30 km/day * 40 days = 1200 km
circumference = 2 pi * r
-> 1200 = 2pi * r
-> r = ~191 km, so Seireitei is about 382 km in diameter
area of Seireitei = pi * r^2
-> pi * (191)^2 = 1.15 * 10^5 km = 115,000 sq km
This would make Seireitei a bit smaller than North Korea in size (which is 120,538 sq km, according to most sources I find). To think about it another way, it's about the size of the US state of Ohio, and you could fit six copies of Seireitei inside of the state of Texas. Meaning the strength of his telekinesis (NOT DC since he didn't destroy anything) is At BEST state level using the manga not fan made numbers.
"Yhwach in Almighty before absorbing anyone tanked Ichigo's swing with his cape.Yhwach told him that he gain the strength of Dangai Ichigo's level again with his true shikai. Yet he parrys it with his clothes"
Yeah I don't think so, how do we know he was telling the truth or that he lied like Aizen especially when in the scan you posted Yorouichi says its a trick:
"Explained best by Yhwach himself here, Yhwach become nigh-omniscient able to perceive everything from the moment he activates this ability up toward the far future. Everything he sees, he can also fully understand, so therefore all ‘abilities’ that he sees becomes his allies and has no effect on him.Any ability is therefore negated by Yhwach as there is nothing that can obstruct his comprehension or counter-measuring."
Yeah well it does have its limits as Aizen was able to use his ability on Yhwach without him stopping it and same with Yammamoto.
This is all without even mentioning how big of a no limits fallacy it would be saying he can stop ANY attack no matter how powerful, this means we go by on what he ACTUALLY stopped. Which mind you is nothing on kaguya's level.
"Ichigo Getsuga didn't even left a strach ofhim, negated as he did with Ichibei Temple of none reincarnation:"
This would be a good durability feat but since he negated something he has no feats to suggest he could do it to Kaguya's attacks, it is extremely useless.
"He received blows of 3927 meters per seconds a few times as an Ant and he was like nothing happen."
Impressive but still nothing to suggest that he could even take Kaguya's straight up mountain level physical strength.
"As the progenitor of the Quincy, Yhwach has access to all of the basic & advanced Quincy abilities:
Blut: The user makes Reishi flow through their bloodstream, drastically increasing their attack and defence power to superhuman levels. The only flaw with this technique is that both attack and defence cannot be increased simultaneously forcing the user to choose between them.
Blut Arterie – the user increases their attack power immensely.
Blut Vene – the user increases their durability immensely, marked by a vein-like pattern on their body where the technique is focused. Blut Vene Anhaben – the user can extend this defence outside of their body in a protective forcefield that consumes everything in close proximity in order to fuel the technique."
I see nothing wrong here but what is the strongest thing his blut vein protected against?
"Kaguya and Yhwach are both over a thousand years old but intelligence wise Yhwach has over two millennia experience as a warrior, along with being the Emperor of the Wandenreich, and a true genius in strategies while Kaguya's intelligence if that of an average princess who depended on Black Zetsu to fight Naruto & Sasuke and form strategies. (Kaguya go create an army of fodders to destroy Momoshiki again, when you can do that by yourself with your power.) Whoever thinks Momoshiki is stronger than Kaguya, be reminded how did he lost again. The scrolls said he was stronger than Kaguya, but she was the one who wrote them, she is not that intelligent whatsoever."
Now I am not saying kaguya is smarter, just pointing out a few things wrong here. First, being over a thousand years old apparently doesn't make you that smart in bleach, Yammamoto a guy as old as Yhwach turned his back on an enemy equally as powerful as himself, without making sure he was dead and completely let his guard down and got killed. Momoshinki was taking on naruto and sasuke as adults at the same time and only lost because they took out his rinnegan and hit him with a super charged vanishing rasengsn from naruto and boruto. So saying she is unintelligent because she thought they were a threat is wrong.
"By the Quincy Letters he should have from A-Z:
- Cheering Empowerment
- Fear Manipulation
- Heat Manipulation
- Enemy Imprisonment
- Lightning Manipulation
- Superhuman Strength
- Reality Warping
- Zombie Creation
- Intangibility (Spatial Piercing & Spatial Phasing)
- Power copying & memory copying & appearance copying
- Aversion Field
With his imagination he should be able to do things of this level"
To my knowledge he gave those powers to his sternritter, meaning he never used them and it isn't in character for him to do so. If we are are just giving out powers we THINK they should have, kaguya should have every jutsu in the naruto verse since she was the originator and has all chakra types. But we don't say that because we go off feats so if he hasn't used those abilities he can't.
"Yhwach stole Yamamoto’s Bankai from him before killing him through a Quincy medallion. The four techniques of this Bankai are:"
Alright has Yhwach ever used these abilities, if not then there is no reason to believe he would or could use them here of all places. If he can please post scans of him using them.
"Longsword of the Remnant Flame, East: Rising Sun Edge: Automatically activated at release, this ability concentrates the intense flames of the sword along the edge of the blade. It neither burns nor erupts, but anything it touches is eradicated to nothingness. Even the defensive power of the Wandenreich's Blut Vene cannot stand up against this technique."
Suppose you do post scans of him being able to use this, it seems alright.
"Longsword of the Remnant Flame, West: Remnant Sun Prison Garb: Automatically activated at release, this ability is unseen by the eyes of anyone else unless the user wills it to be seen. It engulfs his body in heat which reaches a temperature upwards of 15,000,000 degrees. Therefore, it becomes impossible to even touch him while he is using his Bankai. The level of heat produced by this technique is so high, it would not actually appear in the form of flames."
Yeah I have a few problems with this, first how does Yammamoto know that his bankai is as hot as the sun? Has he been there? Did he measure the temperature himself? What. Not only that but his supposed 15,000,000 degree heat that stops the opponent can't even burn the ground he is standing on let alone kaguya. So no nothing suggests that his bankai is anywhere CLOSE to the suns temperature.
"Longsword of the Remnant Flame, South: Great Burial Ranks of the Ten Trillion Fire Dead:Impaling the tip of his sword into the ground, the user calls upon the corpses and ashes of the dead who were killed by his flames to come forth and fight on his behalf. Using the heat of his sword on their ashes, he can rouse all the people he has killed, allowing the corpses to become his limbs and attack whomever he deems as his enemy until they become dust. He can bring forth any specific corpse which he wishes, allowing him to inflict psychological damage upon those with connections to those he has slain."
If you can provide scans to suggest Yhwach can and will use this, I see no problem with this ability.
"Longsword of the Remnant Flame, North: Heaven and Earth End in Ashes: A slash of concentrated fire and heat which incinerates whatever it touches out of existence."
If you can provide scans to suggest he can and will use this, I see no problem with this.
"The flames are concentrated around him, preventing short range attacks from the enemy, his feets are not engulfed in flames to prevent the environment around him from being destroyed and that's why only the edge of the sword has the flames:"
Again being even near the ground that kind of heat would do more than simply start evaporating moisture and when his sword at the supposed temperature of the sun touched the ground it would have done more than simply a fissure in the ground. So no not the sun's temperature.
Conclusions: (Pt 1 of 2 posts)
- No evidence was given to suggest Yhwach was even hypersonic, just fan made numbers which is non cannon and a baseless calc. So kaguya easily has the speed advantage.
- Kaguya has the strength advantage, even if Yhwach has a building level strength and state level telekinetic strength( in lifting) kaguya has multi mountain level physical strength easily exceeding Yhwaches strength.
- Kaguya has the durability advantage, with muti continental level durability, while AT best Yhwach is mountain level meaning he can't even survive punches from Kaguya.
- Kaguya has the Destructive capacity with multi mountain level punches and a truth seeking ball that was said to be able to destroy a planet.
- Hax advantage also goes to kaguya as her abilities give her one shot wins and make her nearly untouchable. Yhwach has hax although it can't kill or stop Kaguya's attacks by feats .
- Overall kaguya completely obliterates yhwach with an advantage over all categories.
Remember, I am still not finished my counters. I will have tthe rest tomorrow morning so please wait for me to post it.
@natsudragneel41: Sorry to say but Natsu is way too slow. In fact the best speed feats he has put him only a little into hypersonic. Luffy is massively hypersonic+ with more raw strength too. Natsu has the skill, Dc, durability, and striking power but the speed difference is Way to great.