mrtrickster

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mrtrickster

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@lagozzino: all Im trying to say is that the post flashpoint universes only represent fraction of dc as we see the mention of omniverse with infinity timelines and convergence. However I don't think high level being like lucifer or the endless has different counterparts each universe. The supposed lucifer you see in demon knight does seem like a different character however that's one instance by a writer and from the look of it could very well be just some no name demon lord pretend to be the lord of hell, neron did it, so did some other demon in carey's lucifer run. Lucifer appeared in spectre series before along with michael that was very similar to the vertigo verse depiction which i think is indeed the true form of them. The use of hypertime makes everything ever published canon from a continuity standpoint, it may not concern the current main dc universe, however doesn't make it untrue.

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mrtrickster

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@mrtrickster said:

post flashpoint it was pretty clear vertigo verse was acknowledged by pandora. vertigo multiverse is now under the whole reality of DC. You have vertigo characters like Constantine straight up being in the same main universe.

Correction, you had very clearly REBOOTED Vertigo characters being in the same main DC universe. Meanwhile all Vertigo stuff published since Flashpoint that has featured any of their classic characters (which, admittedly, isn't much. Sandman: Overture, Deadboy Detectives, The Children's Crusade OGN, a brief period where Hellblazer was still being published and was clearly separate from the Constantine showing up in Justice League Dark, and now Lucifer) has ignored the rebooted continuity and continued on from the old Vertigo shared universe.

If you want a very recent example, a couple months ago the angel Gabriel appeared in two titles at once. One was Vertigo's Lucifer where he's been a secondary lead character, and the other was a guest appearance in DC's Constantine: The Hellblazer. While the former was clearly continuing his status quo from his last appearances in old Hellblazer stories (including an editor's note pointing to which issues of Hellblazer were being referenced), the latter was an entirely rebooted version of Gabriel that couldn't possibly be the same character.

I could throw dozens more examples at you if you want, but I don't want to get long-winded and repetitive (too late for that, right?). Just know that DC and Vertigo may occasionally publish the same characters, but they're not publishing the same continuities. You can try to find some in-story reason for how this could or couldn't be, but from a publishing/marketing perspective they've realized that the old Vertigo/Sandman audience doesn't want to see their characters rebooted, and also that doing so might sour their relationship with their cash cow Neil Gaiman. Sandman: Overture was the most profitable thing Vertigo's published in maybe a decade, and that was very blatantly set in the old Vertigo continuity.

So bottom line is that if you're wondering whether the current events in Lucifer will have an effect on the wider DCU, the answer is probably a resounding "Nooooooooooooooope".

You're ignoring most of the reasons I've given. Like I said I have no doubt vertigo is included in the larger dc omniverse, especially comes when character with deep tie from DC. The idea of hypertime has been using again after flashpoint. Where everything ever published by DC exist as a reality somewhere. I know this sounds crazy but that's how hypertime works, it's a cheat way to fix all continuity errors. And FYI I have never doubted rebooted vertigo characters are completely different entities from their old vertigo counterpart. That means dc is acknowledging the tie between these characters. I have no problems with there being multiple John Constantine, one from vertigo hellblazer one from dc and many more from other universes. I have no doubt that vertigo operate it's own multiverse that seperate from dc main continuity (I never disagree that vertigo is outside of dc main universes) but under the grand dc omniverse it should included. that's why event happened in lucifer is not affecting the dc main continuity. After multiversity Grant Morrison said there will be endless possibilities outside the new 52 universes, and as we see in convergence everything from the past we thought was erased still exists.

I will restate it again, vertigo operate in it's own continuity that's seperate from dc universe, so the event of these two multiverses never affect one another. The reboots and big events affect nothing out of the main dcu. If you see dc comics as one omniverse, dc comics as one giant continuity=dcnu/vertigo/many others

People thought wildstorm imprint used to be non canon too before, then there were many crossovers and eventually became part of the 52 universes. Now I'm not saying vertigo is exactly like wildstorm and I agree there are vertigo titles that has it's own origin completely separate from the reality of DC thus making it un canon. Lucifer is not one of them, especially when DC itself use the same Jude-Christianity concept in their cosmic hierarchy with the same characters. If you really want to force and say for example the death or dream of the endless who appeared in action comics or justice league, who both looks exactly the same as their vertigo appearances are different characters, then that's your way of looking at it. But i think it's pretty clear that dc and vertigo uses the same endless. Death of Endless straight up say she's the concept of death in the entire dc multiverse. These are characters all in the same universe as Lucifer. I have no doubt Lucifer will make another cameo appearance soon in DC. Like I said we will wait and see, a lot of dc cosmic structure is unknown. if dc someday shat out another omnipotent"GOD" and Presence no longer reign supreme I will stand corrected. the war of heaven was mentioned last time 10 years ago in DC when Jim Starlin was writing synnar, I have no doubt characters from lucifer and sandman will be mentioned again.

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mrtrickster

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@dawnone said:
@mysticmedivh said:

So it seems the Presence really is dead.

still hasn't been confirmed if its canon or not.

Well, it seems pretty clear to me that this series takes place in the old Vertigo continuity, due to it picking up directly from the old Lucifer series and referencing old Hellblazer and Sandman continuity. While DC made a lot of missteps in the transition to the New 52, they were smart enough to know that rebooting/retconing anything Sandman-related to fit their current shared universe would do nothing but get them bad press.

So yeah if the Presence is really and truly dead in this series, then it still wouldn't apply to the rest of DC's titles. Even before the Flashpoint reboot happened, Vertigo continuity was different from mainstream DC continuity. Sometimes aspects would cross over between the two, but for the most part there was a divide that kept them separate. I mean, following the conclusion of Mike Carey's original Lucifer series, how many DC titles acknowledged that The Presence/God had completely abandoned the universe and was replaced by a teenage girl?

the dc main continuity is only part of dc entire omniverse, the lucifer story very well might be from a different time and a different multiverse, post flashpoint it was pretty clear vertigo verse was acknowledged by pandora. vertigo multiverse is now under the whole reality of DC. You have vertigo characters like Constantine straight up being in the same main universe. also regarding Elaine Belloc, just because dc main continuity didn't mention it doesn't mean it didn't happened, high level supreme beings are rarely shown, I mean how many times have you seen Presence show up in DC titles? characters from earth barely know them. But everytime dc addresses their cosmic hierarchy above spectre level, the brothers are always mentioned and shown on panel, the endless is always mentioned and shown on panel. Regarding God being dead, it could very well be a stunt, and even if it's true it's only temporary, I would be surprised if God isn't revived somehow in the end. the core message of Hypertime is that everything that has ever been written is just as canon as everything else that has ever been written; it's just that some of it is more relevant to what's being written now than the rest is

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mrtrickster

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@nightfang3 said:

@mysticmedivh said:

So it seems the Presence really is dead.

There should be major shake ups over this.

Doctor Manhattan is God now apparently.

Don't jump the gun yet, from the spoiler blue penis only seem to be upgraded into a high level cosmic being, someone like time trapper who could steal time, nothing suggest he's anywhere near Presence

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mrtrickster

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I don't see how this series wouldn't be canon to dc continuity. First of all we don't really know if God is actually dead, it's only been 5 issues so far

Second of all the angels (lucifer and michael included) and the endless has been shown in DC main universes, post flashpoint the vertigo verse is fully merged with the bigger DC megaverse.

Even if we disregard that DC has been reusing hypertime again, the concept that all realities are connected, under hypertime everything published under dc is canon. lucifer series characters may not show up at DC main universe, doesn't mean they are not included in the entirety of the dc "omniverse". which is a concept that's been using frequently after flashpoint, with convergence and what have you

so unless there's any counter evidence suggest vertigo verse is completely separate from DC omniverse, it would be stupid to regard everything from vertigo imprint non canon