Eight characters that can not or should not be used in VS Battles

Two months ago, I posted a blog about nine most overrated characters on Vine per media. However, it wasn't made to really rant about something. It was mostly there for entertainment purposes given the fact that it did not focus on top 9 overrated characters in fiction, but nine characters from their own form of media who are more overrated than any other from the former's verse (i.e. Kratos for video games, Thor for MCU, Superboy Prime for DC...).

This time, I want to make a similar list, in sense that I will go with the same "one character per media/verse" rule (for further details, read the intro of the blog above), but instead of focusing on characters that are overrated, I will instead list characters who can not be used in VS battles match-ups. Either due to the fact that they are too obscured and almost featless, too broken, too inconsistent in some way or the other.

Now, again, keep in mind that these are not THE TOP 8 characters who can not be used, due to the fact that I am limiting only one per media/universe. Actual top 8 may include more Marvel characters. Or more video game characters. When it comes to what universes and forms of media I'll be mentioning, you can skim through the previous blog and see for yourself. Also, while the order of the previous list was based around what verses I was using, this order will be in correlation to the actual list. Meaning, I will actually rank these characters based on which one fits the category of "unusable" ones more than the previous one. It might be a flawed way to go with due to the fact that I am not making top 10 for one form of media, meaning this should not really be in order, but hey, it is my list and I can do what I want with it.

Note that I will not have a DCEU entry here, because I simply could not find a DCEU character that fits the category. I guess Zeus could work but he was never even shown on screen so no reason to bring him up. On the other hand, I could not find a Manga character for the previous blog, while this one will include a Manga character, so it evens it out. Well, mostly. This number is lower because I could not find a movie or video game character that fits the description either, but I was able to find another source for an entry to make it top 8 instead of top 7.

What all that out of the way, lets get into it. Enjoy.

Number #8 - Amon from Avatar: LoK (Cartoons)

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Amon is a pretty abnormal entry on this list due to the fact that we actually know exactly what he is capable of. It is just that his abilities do not fit into the universe he is put in at all. Amon's blood bending, is broken. There is no way to counter it. It does not matter how strong you are, be it physically or as a bender. You will not be able to resist his blood bending. Not only did Amon master this technique (easily the most powerful form of bending in the verse) when he was a teenager, he also proved to be capable of easily controlling multiple targets at once, without even using hand gestures. This essentially allows him to either incapacitate an opponent with ease, tear them apart and move them around Darth Vader style, pummel them or, even take their bending abilities away, giving him instant win. And not even master water benders can counter this due to how powerful Amon is.

Amon is capable of using blood bending without the full Moon, and not only used it on other anomalies like his brother, but also resisted blood bending himself with no hand gestures. This is not even something Katara can do because she does require full Moon, and it is possible that Amon even surpassed his father, the same guy who while being handcuffed and without the aid of the full Moon, was able to incapacitate an entire court room with it, even Aang in his prime, meaning that even master level water bending won't be enough to counter this ability. The only way to have a proper match up against this guy is to restrict his blood bending, and even without it, Amon is still kinda absurd. Not only did he tank both a direct air burst from Korra and lightning from Mako (former launched him into the water and the latter is an attack that can completely incapacitate and even kill a target), but he was able to create a massive and thick water tornado with ease and contain it for several seconds. And he has done so on a whim after being hit with a powerful attack and temporarily knocked out in the water.

Meaning that even his water bending surpassed that of some of top tiers in the verse. In the realm of Martial Arts, Amon showed enough agility, dexterity, skill and proficiency with Chi Blocking (Avatar Verse's nerve strikes) to outright humiliate other benders in single combat despite the fact that they had distance advantage, and he did not even rely on his bending abilities. In other words, even if you restrict his most powerful asset, Amon is still more than capable of embarrassing some of the best fighters in the verse, and he can even cause hell based on water bending alone, something he never used in combat. And with blood bending, he is practically unbeatable. In other words, there is no proper match up for this guy unless you either increase the number of opponents by a huge margin, or you restrict his strongest asset, both of which are broken. And even then, he can deal with a lot of opponents without them. On the other hand, the only characters superior to him are also the ones who would stomp him in a fight, like Spirits or Avatar state.

At the end of the day, Amon is one of those extremely imbalanced fighters, where he will either absolutely dominate an opponent, or be dominated. The reason why he is so low on the list? That's because he is only unusable in the Avatar universe. If you pit him against a character from another verse who can have a set of abilities that would make an interesting discussion, it can be a good fight. It is minimal but it still exists. While being unusable in your own verse is absurd, it is still possible to find a match for this guy. However, same can not be said for other entries on this list.

Number #7 - The Beyonders (Marvel Comics)

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The Beyonders are kinda paradoxical characters, in sense that we know what they can do both feat wise and hierarchy wise, but they are way too influenced by the plot to make any solid case for their actual status. They Beyonders are Omnipotent. In a way. It has been established that they are actually Omnipotent as a race. And given the fact that it took only 3 of them to kill all the Celestials, all the Abstract Entities and the Living Tribunal itself, all at the same time, with absolute ease at that, puts them at absolute top of the list of Marvel Hierarchy.

At least at first glance. While Beyonders were loosely mentioned here and there way back before Hickman's Time Runs Out was launched, the implication is that they should be in some way or the other, comparable to Pre-Retcon Beyonder and Owen Reece in some way or the other. And their feats as narrated by Hank Pym makes this pretty apparent. However, the Beyonders suffer from shit ton of inconsistency. Not only two of them were killed by pretty low tier characters such as Abyss and Ex Nihilo, but were also taken down by Star Brand.

While the latter is not necessarily a bad thing due to the fact that he had to commit suicide to do so, it kinda questions their ability to do, well, anything they want. On top of that, the Beyonders were effectively killed by the bomb created by Doctor Doom. While we can't technically use this against them because it is impossible to quantify the potency of every Owen Reece in the Multiverse, it is super weird that they got killed by something like that, due to the fact that the powers Owen Reece possesses comes from their own dimension.

We have no idea how to compare current Owen Reece to Pre-Retcon Owen Reece, and therefor, we have no idea how to compare the Beyonders to original Beyonder from original Secret Wars. Aside from that, it has been sort of hinted that the Beyonders are not capable of traveling through time. Which is dumb and weird for entities of such high status among the hierarchy and should be a crippling weakness that can be exploited by tons of characters they shit stomped on panel, as well as Cosmic Cubes themselves possessing time manipulating powers.

At least HOTU Thanos was overwhelmed by something completely unexplainable. One can argue that all of these inconsistencies are simply plot devices for Hickman to deal with such a powerful characters to move the plot forward, but again, these inconsistencies are way to drastic for us to have an objective view of Beyonders' power, making them almost unusable in versus match up, and even if one finds a way to use them, they will have an extremely hard time quantifying them.

Number #6 - Music Meister (Arrowverse)

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Music Meister is on this list for a very different reason compared to other two entries. While he is far from inconsistent and far from broken, Music Meister's power set functions in a way where we don't know who he can be pitted against, and that is mostly due to the fact that this guy has zero combat related feats. CW's interpretation of Music Meister is not human. Instead, he is some sort of extra dimensional entity which apparently resides from a world beyond human comprehension.

This hints at the fact that he is some sort of Abstract level entity, but he has no showings or even clear cut accolades to back it up. At least Marvel Cosmic entities all have a Power Hierarchy and explanation of their purpose and function which helps us determine how they compare to other characters. This guy has none of it. All he has are few handy perks here and there, but when you look at them, they range from abilities that make no sense, to abilities without clear limit.

We know he can hypnotize you. But we don't know if he can do this to multiple people at once and if eye contact is necessary or not. We know he knows things he should not know. But we don't know if this is a byproduct of Cosmic Awareness, absurdly powerful senses, telepathy, some form of device or simply outside influence. We know he can react to the Flash, but we don't know how fast the speedster moved when he attacked him, making the feat unquantifiable.

We know he can kill people he hypnotized, but we don't know if he can choose whether this happens or not, or if it depends on the characters themselves being put in a scenario he created. The fact that he himself said he can not reverse his... "spell", could mean that his powers have some really weird limitations, and given he fact that both Iris and Mon-El were able to save Kara and Barry just because they <loved them>, makes the entire showing kinda useless.

We know he can steal powers, but we don't know how he does that, how much time it takes to do so, and what are the mechanics and limitations. We know he can be KO'd, but we don't know if he let himself be defeated by Wally, Cisco and J'onn or not. We know he can teleport. But we don't know if applications of that ability are useful or effective in combat.

All of his powers are extremely weird and lack real explanation and limits. Therefor, it is almost impossible to say what he can and can not do, especially because he never participated in a serious fight.

Number #5 - Indra & Ashura from Naruto (Manga)

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Oh my God, where do I even begin with these guys. I was originally gonna put Hamura on this list, but due to more frequent use of these guys on the battle forum, I decided to replace their uncle with sons of Hagoromo. The main problem with Indra and Ashura is the fact that they have no appearances what so ever. They never had any story revolved around the two of them, and their canon appearances in the Manga are limited to 2-3 shots during the reference, mentions, and showcase of their spirit form next to Naruto and Sasuke. While these guys are connected to a huge chunk of material from Naruto that can be used to speculate how powerful they are, the level of power they have is still based on nothing but that. Speculation. Obito claims that Indra possessed powerful eyes and Yin Release.

Ok, fair enough. But we have no idea what applications related to Yin Release were used by Indra in a way that is effective in combat. We know he has the Mangekyo Sharingan and Perfect Susanoo, but we don't know how to compare it to regular Madara's Perfect Susanoo and Six Paths Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo. We know Ashura has incredibly powerful stamina and Yang Release. But again, we have no idea how that is relevant. Is his stamina and strength comparable to someone like Naruto before Six Paths? Or is it more like Hashirama's? While Madara, Hashirama, Naruto and Sasuke are mostly so powerful because they are the reincarnations of the two brothers, as you can see, I already compared them to the four and we have no idea how they compare.

Are they stronger than Six Paths duo? Are they weaker than non Six Paths Naruto and Sasuke? Are they comparable to Madara and Hashirama? Do they go in between some versions and the other ones? We honestly can't say. While Indra using the Perfect Susanoo without spare eyes is impressive, we don't know if this is a byproduct of superior chakra cost and stamina compared to other Uchiha without EMS, or if his eyes are simply more powerful. We know Ashura possesses Fox Kurama like Avatar similar to Naruto, but again, we can not compare it to Naruto because Naruto's Avatar is Kurama himself, and Ashura is not a host. And speculating that it is equal to or stronger than Naruto's Clone Combined Kurama who stalemated Indra's Arrow Sasuke is, again, just a speculation.

We know Ashura possesses multiple Truth Seeking Orb like balls around his avatar, but we can't say those are Truth Seeking Orbs because 1) the number does not match any other Six Paths Sage Mode user, 2) they are too large, and 3) even if they are, we do not know how they compare to Madara's and Naruto's, since other non Six Paths users like Toneri possessed TSOs and they were not as nearly as impressive as the ones Juubi Host has. Of course, Ashura and Indra do have feats in their filler arc, but again, we can not use them because filler is not canon. And even if we decide to use them, it won't solve anything because Ashura did not use his Fox Avatar like he was shown in canon appearance, and was overwhelmed until other Ninshu pupils amped him.

Either Ashura has gotten better, or Indra has gotten worse. We honestly can't say.

Number #4 - Golden Superman (DC Comics)

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Not having any feats, but still having multiple sources to at least speculate in some form or the other over how powerful one character is, is one thing. However, not paying attention to the details or outright making stuff up is the other. And this leads us to our Number 4, that being Golden Superman, Superman Prime, Superman One Million, whatever you are gonna call him. While this guy could easily make it to my "overrated characters of the verse" list from 2 months ago, I think he fits into this category way better because he honestly has nothing.

This Superman... is featless. He is completely featless. Not only is he completely featless, but there is no bio or any hint over how powerful this guy is. The only thing this guy has ever done on panel is kill Solaris, and this only happened after Solaris fought and got overpowered and hurt by the likes of Kyle Rayner, Kal Kent and two JLA teams, which makes the feat completely unqauntifiable and completely useless. That is all this guy has, and everything else you will see on the internet is based on nothing but disinformation or confusion.

The ONLY reason why this guy is not higher on the list, is because we actually do know he is just Post-Crisis/New Earth version of Superman but still alive in the future. Not only does this mean that all of his feats apply to this Superman, but it also means that he is capable of surpassing his physical capabilities to absurd degree. However, this leads us to another problem. We have absolutely no idea how big of an amp 15.000 years in the Sun is. Did it amp him to Kal Kent's level? Is he strong enough to beat the likes of Thanos and Gog, or even Odin now?

We honestly don't know. And we can't scale him off of Post-Crisis Superman's Sundipp because it will be almost impossible to quantify new feats and compare them to regular ones, because actual limit and complete and objective level of feats he preformed while being sundipped, are also unknown. We can assumeon what level he should operate, but we will never be able to find a proper match for him.

Number #3 - Tulak Hord (Star Wars)

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Ok, being broken, inconsistent, featless, impractical or just relying on speculation, is all fine and dandy if you at least have some feats (like Music Meister or the Beyonders), or possessing at least some source to draw from when it comes to your power (Golden Superman and Indra/Ashura). Tulak Hord on the other hand, is the embodiment of super obscured outright featless and completely unknown.

This Sith Lord suffers mostly from the same problems Indra and Ashura do. Tulak Hord is dead. There is not a single story that focuses on the time period when he was alive. And the funniest part is, we didn't even know what he looked like until years afterwards. And just like the Naruto brothers, all sources of info that hints at how powerful he is revolve around statements.

While statements are perfectly fine, claims supporting Tulak Hord are extremely vague and far from clear cut. At least Mace Windu was outright stated to be second only to Yoda and better than everyone in the order, during the period that was explored in a detailed way and Jedi of the time showcasing their skill and power, making such claims quantifiable.

Tulak Hord was stated to be the legendary lightsaber duelist and undefeated master of the blade superior to everyone in his era. And while that is all fine and dandy, reputation without a substance does not tell us anything. What I mean by that is, we have absolutely no idea how good the duelists of his era were, meaning it is impossible to compare him to characters with feats.

Even if swordsmen of his era were introduced, it does not matter because we still wouldn't know what fighting style Tulak Hord relied on. We wouldn't know how effective his tactics were, and what kind of approach he used. On top of that, both his force abilities and stats are also clouded in mystery, making the outcome of the fight still unknown even if we knew he would win in a sword fight.

While it is true that Darth Traya stated that skill and abilities of Tulak Hord were so great, that comparing him to fighters of the KOTOR era would be like comparing masters to children playing with toys, it once again does not matter because skill can be countered with superior stats, intelligence and tactical approach. Or even Force Abilities.

Besides that, Traya made rather inaccurate statements before, some of which were contradicted even by writers themselves, making her entire interpretation of this rather questionable. It also would not make a lot of sense because Tulak Hord lived before 5600 BBY, and lightsaber technique and combat went through massive development and changes since then.

Number #2 - Odin (Marvel Cinematic Universe)

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This honestly makes me sad because I wanted to see Odin do something in MCU, but it all ended up being nothing. The reason why I put Odin above Tulak Hord, is because Tulak Hord has at least some statements that can lead you to believe that writers had high views on him. While same can be said for Odin, it would be based on facts presented in all the wrong ways. Odin's feats are limited to beating Laufey, depowering Thor, putting a spell on Mjolnir, resisting Loki's spell and trapping Hela. While all those feats sound cool and all, none of them are really practical.

Depowering Thor does not mean he is capable of depowering anyone else, due to the fact that Thor's powers come from the fact that he is Odin's son, so he should be a special case. Putting a "worthy" enchantment on Mjolnir can also attribute to the fact that Mjolnir is an Asgardian weapon, but even without assuming that's so, such ability has no combat applications. Resisting Loki's spell is irrelevant because we do not know how much time and effort it took to resist it, and on top of that, applications, use and actual abilities of the spell are completely unknown.

While he did defeat Laufey, the fact that the fight cost him his eye despite the fact that Gungnir showed the ability to turn Laufey into dust with a singe blast (while being used by weaker character, Loki), either means that Odin is not that great of a combatant, or he was sucker punched, which also means that his senses (ones that helped him sense Thor's death and things around him while being in Odinsleep) are not that effective in combat. While lack of context prevents us from using this against him, we can not use it to support him either.

Loki's, Thor's and Bor's use of Gungnir against Frost Giants, Hela's swords and Dark Elves does showcase the damage output and durability of the weapon, but again, we have no idea what tactics Odin himself employed in CQC encounters. In the realm of raw power and hax, while Odin's blast shattered Thor's armor, it is still unquantifiable because it did not damage Thor himself. Tapping into Dark Energies to create a pseudo Bifrost to teleport Thor while weakening him has barely any relevance in combat, and we can't use Odin Force feats from Thor game because it is not canon.

One-shotting fodder and preventing Thor and Loki from falling are useless feats, and we can't say Odin can replicate Loki's spell feats due to the fact that his knowledge and talent comes from Frigga. The only feat that remotely showcases Odin's power was his ability to trap Hela. While this kinda speaks of his power simply due to the fact that Hela could not escape until Odin died, meaning she is capable of teleportation and that Odin himself actively held here there, imprisoning someone and keeping them there and matching them in power and ability are two very different things.

Just because Odin somehow banished her and forced her to stay there does not mean he is more powerful or stronger than Hela, especially because we have no idea how such a feat was preformed. Did it happen mid combat? Was Hela unable to resist it? Did Odin rely on some artifacts? Was he required a lot of time to cast a spell? Was Hela taken by surprise? Did he struggle to hold her? Was she tricked or forced? We honestly can't say. While it was stated that Odin defeated Surtur, we have no idea if this was Surtur Thor easily killed, or if it was the one bonded with Eternal Flame.

The fact that Odin outright stated that fully powered Thor was more powerful than him, the same Thor who was still way weaker than Hela, makes the other two <feats> questionable. Even if this was just Odin motivating Thor and not actually stating facts, lack of information is still present. No on screen fights. No hand to hand combat feats. No known in character approach. No clear cut hax or resistance feats. No damage output feats. No context provided for existing feats. No abilities relevant in combat, and no clear limitations.

Number #1 - The Creator(s) (All of Fiction)

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And yes, I know I am totally breaking my own rule here. Not only because I am listing multiple characters, but because I am including all of fiction, instead of one verse or form of media. However, I do not think there is a better example of unusable characters than this entry.

When I say creators, I am talking about Gods. And not any Gods or God like beings, but fictional representations of ultimate and supreme being in any reality and the source of everything and anything in existence and beyond. God/Creator who can do anything.

Not only are these characters barely used even in those instances when they are showcased, but all of them lack feats that make any sort of sense. Both the Presence and The One Above All appeared in person in their respective Universes, and they did not do anything.

This essentially means that the material used to gauge their power and performance is basically non existing. While lack of on panel/screen feats is not something debaters can not deal with, the actual problem is the nature of these characters itself and not their showings.

The so called "creators" are objectively and undoubtedly all knowing and power. They are established as possessing true and non hyperbolic Omnipotence, without actual God Like powers, but actual unlimited and unquestionable ability to do anything and everything they please. This essentially means that it is impossible for them to not win or lose 99.999999% of the fights.

Which is boring and completely pointless. The only argument one can make is how one's showcase of Omnipotence is better, which is why TOAA and the Presence are so frequently pitted against each other. But at that point, it is not even a battle discussion anymore, but one's overall perspective and concept of Omnipotence and how a stalemate translates to their powers.

The only arguments I have seen that hold at least some weight in discussions with these characters (aside from obvious "create a rock you can't lift" mental gymnastics bullshit you see everywhere), is using examples that hint that some of them are not actually Omnipotent. I.E. Presence's inferiority statement or TOAA's lack of knowledge and influence.

But again, those are just either extremely vague statements that do not mean anything, or obvious cherry picked instances that contradict the obvious outlook the writers and the lore has, and "beyond Omnipotent" argument reaches a new level of mental gymnastics and reaching. At the end of the day, God(s)/Creator(s) and beings with Omnipotence are truly unusable in VS battles.

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That's my list. Hopefully you enjoyed, and let me know if I missed some characters.

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Top 10 Darth Vader Moments

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Darth Vader is the first thing that pops to one's mind when someone mentions Star Wars. He is probably the most popular character of the franchise, and definitely most iconic. He is possibly the greatest villain in history of fiction, although that is completely subjective. Despite popular opinion, Vader is not my favorite Star Wars character. Hell he is not even my favorite villain of the franchise. That being said, I do think he is one of, if not the best written characters in the Saga, having various characteristics we did not have a chance to see in movies, mostly him being badass and powerful. I will share my 10 favorite Darth Vader moments, using Movies, EU and Canon as sources. These are not moments I think are the best. Just the ones I personally like the most.

Number #10 - Big Reveal (Movies)

"I am your father."

While this moment is barely impactful to us personally, since everybody heard of this line before even memorizing all the names for main characters, it is an incredibly important moment to Luke and Vader himself. It defines who Vader is. He served the Emperor for 2 decades, but after realizing he has a son, he asked him to join him and rule the galaxy with him by overthrowing Palpatine. While this moment is expanded upon even further in Novels and Magazines/Books, and focuses on Vader's feelings even more, the movie itself turns the tides completely, and will be the key part of the final installment of the franchise. Besides, it is one of the most iconic lines in history of cinema.

Number #9 - Retrieving Coruscant (EU/Legends)

"At the nexus of hyperspace routes, we came within an eyeblink of completely missing Tarkin's transport. Had he been in a faster vessel, or had his starship's navicomputer stored more coordinates... had he ignored our hail... we could have never warned him, never joined our crew with his... and never taken Gentis by surprise. By my estimates, Gentis had us outnumbered at least eight by one. But Gentis did not have a Sith Lord in his ranks."

Months after establishing the Empire, Palpatine already took control of the Galaxy, and ruled it with an iron fist. But he was ruthless. Not caring for his own soldiers either. Countless died after the Empire was established, good soldiers. Some of their leaders, such as Headmaster of Imperial Officer Academy, Gentis, who decided to start a coup to prevent deaths of his students, and establish himself as the new Emperor. Palpatine almost died due to virus spread through his palace, but he was saved by Vader and one of Gentis' students, Laurita Tohm, who joined Vader instead. After fleeing with the Emperor, Vader discovered a secret prison the Jedi kept worst of the worst criminals in, with no trial. Vader slaughtered most of them, or allowing them to slaughter the others, until the strongest survived. Vader along with Officer Tohm, orchestrated a plan to use these criminals as their allies for their freedom in exchange, and end the coup before the Empire falls apart. After Grand Moff Tarkin visited Coruscant in his ship, he was already captured by Gentis' men. Little did he know that Tarkin met with Vader before the confrontation, and had him, Tohm and criminals, inside the ship, who got out, and started slaughtering Gentis' men, until the Emperor killed the Headmaster personally with Force Lightning.

What makes this moment so great to me is that it shows how Vader was actually important to the Empire for reasons outside of just killing Jedi. He personally saved the Emperor, kept his wounded body hidden, found soldiers for himself, and took everything back in a manner of a day or two. Aside from that, the scene itself is spectacular, showing not only Vader's capability, but his massive power as well, blowing an entire army away with Force Shockwave, even creating an effect that appears to be a form of pseudo Force Lightning, or kinetite technique. Tohm narrating the scene and Agustin Alessio's amazing art just make it even better.

Number #8 - Realization (Disney Canon)

"... Skywalker... ..."

After the destruction of the Death Star, Vader's reputation dropped drastically. He lost Emperor's respect, and the command over the fleet was taken away from him, just like a big part of his resources. Aside from rebuilding everything he lost, he wanted to find the boy who blew up their super weapon. He sent Bobba Fett who capture the boy, but he escaped. Bobba did not have much to say aside from boy's name, "Skywalker". After Bobba left, Vader's anger started to radiate, cracking glass with his mere presence. He started to remember his dead wife, his time as a Jedi, Palpatine's words after he ended up being imprisoned in his armor, and her pregnancy. He realized what happened. He was lied to. He demanded to meet the Emperor. But Vader was smart. He knew his place. He just told the Emperor he understands their relationship now. He came back, remembering his wife, what he has done, and the boy he encountered. Vader realizes he has a son. As he calms down, he looks at Imperial Star Destroyers flying in space, claiming his son will be his. How "it will ALL be his".

Number #7 - Visions of the Past (EU/Legends)

"Yes. I killed you. I killed you. I killed Anakin. I killed the child you carried. And I hate myself for all that I have done."

Anakin Skywalker is dead. He died that day when he lost his limbs and was defeated by Obi-Wan Kenobi. But he did not disappear completely. His memories and feelings, still live in this monster called Darth Vader. When he was in his meditation chamber, and was actually in a position to take his mask off, which he hated wearing, he was able to sleep. He dreamed of alternate life where he killed Palpatine, Padme gave birth to their son, and he became the leader of the Jedi order. Those dreams were too much for him to handle, and he would often either scream in agony after waking up, or think of that life after going through absurdly painful process of attaching his armor to his crippled body, trying to keep himself sane.

Vader was eventually tasked to capture Admiral Garoche Tarkin, who turned off from the Empire due to crimes he has committed against world Atoa, and fell in love with it's world's High Priestess, Saro. Vader failed to capture Garoche however, and was instead captured himself, with most of his armor and life support system being damaged. Eventually, he saw visions of his dead wife Padme coming close to him, telling him how broken he is. But Vader said how Anakin is gone. He is only what his master made him. This response "made" Padme leave, which forced Vader to scream for her coming back, allowing himself to break the restrains that held him. After killing the guards and leaving the room, he saw Padme yet again, but this time, in form of a corpse.

She told him how she did not die, but he killed her. This broke Vader completely, making him fall to his knees with tear rolling down his eye, admitting everything he has done, and stating how he hates himself for what he has done. Padme's ghost told him that she forgives him, this time calling him "Vader" instead of "Anakin", and disappearing. Eventually it was realized that Saro was the one who made Vader see those illusions, as she can look into one's heart. Vader demanded to bring her back, but she could not. Vader was inraged, but Saro begged him not to kill her and Garoche. If not for them, then for her unborn child. Saro was pregnant. This realization completely tore Vader apart. He could have a chance for family too, but he destroyed it.

Using the Force, Vader destroyed the entire building, crashing it down on all 3 of them, trying to commit suicide. He was buried under the debris for days, until he woke up in front of Palpatine, and droids attaching his repaired armor to him. Of course he survived. His hatred for himself kept him alive. The Dark Side is all he needs. Palpatine told him there is more work to be done, with Vader kneeling before him, asking what he most do next. This shows what kind of character Vader is, or at least was during early years as a Sith Lord. He was intimidating and all powerful to everyone. But underneath that metal of horror, was a broken man, who lost everything. Life full of guilt. All he was left with, was his master. One who complimented him, but will always see him as servant, and slave.

Number #6 - Battle on Mustafar (Movies)

"I have failed you Anakin... I have failed you."

While this is more of a Anakin Skywalker moment, he had the title of the Sith Lord and name "Lord Vader" by the time this fight took place, so it should still count. I think what makes this moment so great to me is Obi-Wan's addition more than anything. Anakin will not listen to reason. He is too far deep into this. This is not what he truly wanted, but he had to do this to save his wife. And that same wife of his, apparently betrayed him, making all of this almost worthless. And this is all due to his master's involvement. All he is driven by is his rage and lust for power, things and define Sith Lords. As he matches Anakin's immense power with skill, Obi-Wan looks at his former apprentice with disappointment and pity. But more towards himself than Anakin. He tells him how he failed him, and knows this is the end, yet still tries to talk to him due to desperation. But there is no coming back. As Obi-Wan takes the advantage of the fight, Anakin's blind rage gets the best of him, crippling him for life. As Obi-Wan shares his disappointments, Anakin just screams about how he hates his master, until motivations for those screams become searing pain of his skin, muscles and lungs burning, and event that will truly turn Anakin into Vader. More machine than a man.

Number #5 - "My Destiny... ...is my own..." (Disney Canon)

"He had no father. Unnatural. The Chosen One."

After building his own castle on Mustafar, Vader encountered a Spirit of Ancient Sith Lord Momin, who helped Vader to preform a ritual which will allow him to travel back in time and save his wife. However, Momin betrayed Vader, and used the ritual to bring his body back. After being bested in a lightsaber duel by Momin, Vader killed him with the Force, and continued the ritual for himself in a way it was apparently suppose to be preformed, walking into a door.

As he entered, his physical body collapsed, only his spirit entering, taking the form of humanoid like red and black figure composed of blood and darkness with no face besides 2 white holes for eyes, with only arms and hands from knees and elbows down being white and blue in color. As he walks in inside this dimension with purple dark sky, he hears quotes from several people who were close to him. Even seeing several events from his life that already happened or will happen to him.

Eventually he encounters Jedi Order. The ones who promises him so much, yet took everything away from him. Vader pulled two dark blades similar to lightsabers, slaughtering the entire Order. As he walks inside the temple, he sees his two father figures, Palpatine and Obi-Wan, fighting. Palpatine kills Obi-Wan and welcomes Vader, but Vader kills even Palpatine himself with Force Lightning. Coming out to the balcony, he sees Padme, now in his Jedi Knight Anakin form.

He tells her how he can save her now, but her eyes turn black and voice becomes identical to Vader's, and she tells him that Anakin Skywalker is dead, before throwing herself off the balcony. As Anakin shouts in panic, now with Sith eyes, Padme's face changes to creepy smile corrupted by Dark Side traits, as she chokes herself with her bare hands, until getting vaporized. Vader, now in his demonic form again, screams in pain, agony and sadness.

Now seeing himself in his castle, nothing surrounds him but hell. Vaporized surface covered in lava. Clouded sky with lightning. Only darkness and pain. As he looks to the side, he sees a beam of white and blue energy hitting the ground, and from that beam, a human male figure shows up, completely covered in light, wearing a jacket of sorts. The figure pulls out a lightsaber and ignites it, which creates a flash of light that hits Vader, forcing him to wake up.

Number #4 - Anakin No More (Movies)

"Live, Lord Vader. Live, my apprentice. Live."

This is another epic moment in movies in my opinion. And it is kinda speaks for itself. It is the moment where Anakin truly turns into Darth Vader. His broken body repaired by life support systems and robotics. His reaction as they are putting the mask on, symbolism of him rising as Padme dies, the music, everything about this moment is great. He was manipulated in doing what Palpatine wanted, and now his body is corrupted. But there is still that glimmer of light in him, which Palpatine will crush by telling him how he killed his wife himself. As he hears those words, he starts crushing the surroundings with the Force, be it droids or walls. He breaks free of his restrains with his now superhuman strength, and in extremely clumsy manner, walks forward. While he screams in agony, his master smiles, as he has his apprentice back. I like the fact that Vader is clumsy in his suit at first. It shows how he became more of a machine, and it also makes no sense to find comfort in it right away. This moment would probably be higher on the list. However, given alternate version I heard existed for it, plus the fact that it has that dumb "noooo" in the end, made me put it lower.

Number #3 - Cylo shuts Vader down (Disney Canon)

"Anakin... You don't need to go on. It can be over. You know you don't want to leave. Stay."

Vader was precise to the Emperor, whether he wanted to admit it or not. He needed him to survive. He turned to finest of scientists to save his apprentice's life. One of those great minds was Doctor Cylo, who personally built Vader's armor and life support system. He continued to serve the Empire for 2 decades, until he eventually betrayed it. Vader was tasked to kill Cylo, but the moment he met him, he realized that Cylo had a device capable of completely shutting down both his armor and it's life support system. He made Vader his armor. He was never a treat to Cylo. He could turn him off whenever he wanted. But he wanted to do it in person, to see what truly came out of that operating table. Was it a machine or a man? Now he knows it is the former.

As his life slips away, Vader sees himself on Mustafar with Obi-Wan. Seconds before burning, without his limbs. However, here, it is different. Here, Anakin tells Obi-Wan that he is a coward and should have killed him. Obi-Wan grabbed his crippled body, threw it into lava, and asked if this would have been better. He came out of lava in his armor, replying with "yes". He killed Obi-Wan just like he did before, and is met with his Jedi self, Anakin Skywalker. He defeated him in a duel and left him to burn on Mustafar. During the next moment, he saw himself in his armor again, chained to operating table. His pregnant wife Padme comes to him, and tells him to stay with her. Vader replies with calm "no", but she convinces him that he does not need to move on. Everything can stop.

As Cylo looks at Vader's turned off body, Vader, still chained to his operating table, Force Chokes his wife, saying "no" again, and Cylo starts seeing few sudden moves. Vader continues to choke Padme, saying: "Anakin Skywalker is dead. I killed him", and breaks the chains of his operating table. Cylo sees Vader moving, and asks how is that possible, since he is still turned off, until being completely shocked to see him getting up completely, taking the lightsaber, and killing Cylo, saying how nothing is impossible for the Force. Aside from being impressive display of power, rage and will, literally wishing himself back to life and moving while being shut down, this shows how Vader grew as a character in between Episode 3 of Prequels, and Episode 4 of original trilogy.

He lived the life of guilt and suffering. Constant agony and pain. But eventually he reached his prime. He stopped caring for anyone. He kept his hatred for Obi-Wan and himself, but only his past self now. He moved on from guilt, and no longer wants to see his wife again. She is irrelevant to him. Anakin is no more. There is only this monster. Speaking of monsters...

Number #2 - "Those Cold Eyes" (EU/Legends)

"Is there any ounce of humanity left in that dark machine? I still ask myself that. I honestly don't know. I hope not. Because over the course of that next hour... I saw things... Images that still visit me in the dark. I heard things. Cries that still wake me from a deep sleep. I pray no human being is capable of what Lord Vader did that day."

This story is not about Vader. It is about Clone Trooper Hock Malsuum, who almost died during the Clone Wars, developing hatred for the Jedi due to forgetting him. When Empire was established, he joined and became a Stormtropper. His skills and bravery, made Vader take notice, and eventually develop respect for the man. After multiple actions of the battle field, he became a commander, and earned Vader's trust. This made Hock feel good about himself, given that he respected Lord Vader more than anyone he ever knew. They started to work together to take down the separatist of world Ostor, but Hock was unfortunately shot down. To his surprise, he woke up in hospital of his enemies, who took care of his wounds. One of the patience gave him some of his clothes, and as Hock encountered leaders of Ostor, he told them to just surrender.

They told him they are not trying to win. All they want is to take down as many as they can, while also inspire others. Those words partially meant to Hock, but he was still royal to the Empire. He cut down their defenses, allowing the Empire to move forward. Afterwards, Hock engaged in H2H combat with Kaddak, another former Clone Tropper who worked with separatists. After killing him, Vader helped Hock get up, showing his respect for him, and they moved towards the war zone. Hock described it as making people and place itself bare recognizable. As the battle field became more silent, he commented about how he hopes there is no humanity left in Vader, as things he has done that day, screams and cries he made Hock hear, are things that he hoped could not be caused by a human. As he started following Vader, the only trail he could find were corpses.

Even a kid, who was innocent and barely had 7 years, just stood there looking at Vader, until he got cut down. Hock entered in a base, seeing countless armless civilians killed, as well as Ostor leaders. He turned around and saw Vader, who barely noticed him, and just continued to move forward, with no glimmer of remorse. Just silence. As both of them opened door to another room, it was hospital room Hock was in. Full of crippled, sick, broken, tired, wounded, old people, women and children. Hock told them that their army and leaders are dead. They should just accept defeat and their new leaders. But these men, women and children, with no means to even move, some of them having no legs and only one arm, stood up to Vader and Hock. One with no limbs barely making himself look like he is in standing position. They were determined to not give up.

There was a moment of complete silence, until Vader raised his lightsaber, telling them: "Then follow your leaders into oblivion", striking down and killing those people. Hock started screaming like a madman, telling Vader to stop. He did not stop. He continued, striking down more and more, with Hock shouting like his lungs were about to explode. After shouting again, Vader stopped. He stood there. Silent. With no glimmer of emotion. No remorse. No humanity. Nothing but those gold dark eyes. He looked at Hock, but he barely even took notice. Hock remembered that he said something else. He told Vader something. But he can't remember what. He asked himself what were Vader's thoughts. Was he thinking of Hock's reaction? Or was he just thinking who he will strike next? Hock looked at him with sadness in his eyes, throwing down his blaster, and giving up, leaving.

He realized, that his respect, was misplaced.

Number #1 - Redemption (Movies)

"Your thoughts betray you father. I feel the good in you."

It may seem kinda predictable and maybe I am looking at this more objectively, like this is actually most important moment instead of something that should be one's favorite, but I guess in this case, that goes hand in hand with me. This is where Vader's journey ends. He was a broken man who had nothing left. He was his master's slave. His hatred for himself prevent him from finding pleasure, or even dying, even when he wanted to. In his prime, he was completely dead inside, not caring for anyone. Even starting to make himself believe that he and Anakin were different people.

When he met his son however, he felt the light spark within him, and while his goals were selfish and evil, he finally could live his life outside the Emperor, even attempting to overthrow him. When his son rejected him, Vader obeyed his master once again, embracing the Dark Side completely. But his son's presence and actions made him feel conflict. When Luke finally moved away from Emperor's grasp, defeated Vader saw his son getting tortured and almost killed by his master. Vader killed the Emperor to save the only person who's left that cared about him, and returned as Anakin Skywalker.

While comics, databooks and novels get into details about Vader's conflict as well, which makes it even more complex and interesting, the movie gives it enough justice by itself in my opinion. Palpatine's narrow minded approach and rage, Vader's conflict seen on screen due to his physical actions, Luke's screams, lightning covering the room, all of it seemed very well made. It concluded the story of this once heroic, broken, evil and tragic character, and turned the face of the franchise itself, his son, into a hero he was meant to be, proving that even the darkest can be redeemed.

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Here it is. That is my list. Some parts were more concise than the others but a lot of them were pretty self explanatory and a lot of people were familiar with them if we are talking about the movie ones. You may notice how I did not provide an explanation as to why I like some of those picks, like number 2 or 5, but that is because I think one of them speaks for itself, and the other is symbolic, I'll just let you interpret it the way you want. Hopefully you found this entertaining.

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Nine Overrated Fictional Characters (per Media/Universe)

While I did make a thread about the most overrated comic characters a year and a half ago, it was somewhat inaccurate and it sounded too much like a rant-like blog, at least more than I wanted it to be. However here I will do something different. I decided to include 1- forms of media or fictional Universes, pick the one who I think is the most overrated character from that universe/media and put them on this list, in no particular order.

Now, I was a bit unfair when it comes to this list because when it comes to Marvel and DC, I included one for those two, plus some of their non comic universes (which you will see). However, when it comes to movie or video game characters, I simply included one for each category instead of simply including multiple for each game or movie universe (Jason Bourne, Dante, Kratos...).

This might not seem fair, but I am more of a comic expert and there are simply too many video games and movie characters for me to include every Universe and character for each. The list would be absurdly long and plus, I'm too ignorant to comment there. This was originally gonna have 10 characters, but I did not include any Manga character due to my lack of knowledge.

Disclaimer:

This list is not meant to rant about how overrated these characters are or to complain about them. Nor is it asking for these threads to be banned, and it is not meant to antagonize users either. Hell I barely even debated against characters included on this list. This list's goal is not even to "debunk" statements that apparently overrate these characters. This is just an idea I had in mind and it's only purpose is for me to share my experience and views, plus do something more interesting by including one character for each form of media or universe.

Also keep in mind that if some of my claims on this thread sound hostile, they are not. I was 100% chill while writing this blog, it is just that the topic requires blunt statements. If some of this sounds provoking, I am sorry, but trust me when I say that I am just sharing my personal opinion. I am not trying to start a rant. We good? Good. With that out of the way, lets get to it.

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Number 1 - Storm (Marvel Comics)

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I really did not want to put Storm on this list, even less have her as first option on this list. That said, I can't think of a better option for Marvel's character. If you had any experience with her Battle Forum threads, you would know what I'm talking about. Not only is she one of the most, if not the most long lasting character who fits the category of "overrated", something a lot of debaters on this forum complained about, but her supporters probably have some of the most questionable opinions on her out of everyone on this list, since almost everyone on this list has at least some leg to stand on to explain the hype, highballing or misconception about him/her, while with Ororo, I honestly do not understand where this is coming from.

Ignoring the fact that a lot of her stats like speed and durability are incredibly over exaggerated, a lot of arguments I have seen supporting Ororo were not even based off of some scan taken out of context, but strait up disinformation and mental gymnastics, such as her being completely immune to any form of lightning despite the fact that she was taken out on-panel by her own lightning, or the fact that her energy manipulation is put on levels it has no business being on. The worst part however is the fact that she is constantly pitted against fighters she has no business fighting against, such as high tiers like Thor, Hulk, Superman and so on. And on top of it, those threads are some of the most post-filled ones on this site, full of arguments supporting Ororo.

The main argument used by her supporters is frying synapses tactic, which apparently bypasses durability and can instantly one-shot everyone despite having absolutely no feats to prove that is the case. This argument not only completely ignores how the power works, but also ignores the fact that Ororo's consistency of using it, is worse than Superman's willingness to search for a Black Hole in space to BFR someone into it. Mental gymnastics do not really make her better either, as most arguments I have seen that try to counter people who bring up the fact that her powers failed multiple times or that she was defeated by way weaker people, they simply say how it does not count because she did not use her other powers. Irony being that not even those powers would help her if she used them.

Number 2 - Superboy Prime (DC Comics)

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Contrary to what some people may believe, I actually try to give Prime the benefit of the doubt whenever I talk about him. I do acknowledge the fact that he is incredibly powerful. However, the level of power he is put on is far from accurate one. While it is true that he broke Hal Jordan's arm casually and was moving planets at FTL speeds casually, making him one of the strongest characters out there, most other categories he has are lacking, specifically speed.

You will often hear speed being argued as the reason as to why Prime wins. And that makes sense given he is a bloodlusted Kryptonian. But here is the problem. Prime has no speed feats. None. He has no quantifiable showings, he has no legit showings against other characters, and he never used any moves that remotely showcase super speed. No dodging and most importantly, no blitzes. I have never seen Prime blitz anyone. He is a tank who brawls and nothing else.

You will often see arguments for Prime facing the Flashes, but I do not understand this argument. This might actually surprise you but, every single time Prime faced a speedster, he could not do anything to them. There is always an argument about how Flash Family barely defeated him but if you look at the fight, nobody struggled with Prime because he was fast. They just struggled to push him backwards. But every single speedster he faced, from Jenni Ognats, to Jay Garrick, to Bart Allen, to Wally West, blitzed him successfully and he could not react to them or tag them, while they were able to do so.

I saw arguments about how Prime is a tanky guy and prefers to tank instead of dodge and while that argument seems like poor excuse to me, it can be used. The main problem is, even if we disregard the instances when he got blitzed, Prime has no showings against speedsters that suggest he is comparable to any of them. And even if he does, he never uses that so called speed. I have never seen a character who is so full of confident and often seen arguments that just do not work like this before.

While I mentioned that his strength is impressive, his striking power is a bit to be desired tho. He lacks quantifiable striking power feats, and against other characters, it is incredibly difficult to quantify it because most of them are successful in tanking his punches, with damage, but they can still keep going. The only character he put down besides Sodam Yat was Earth 2 Superman, and he did it after a long fight of pummeling and still lost (albeit he was fighting 2 Supermen but one of them was affected by Kryptonite). This is not here to make Prime look less impressive but lack of concrete evidence about how strong he is makes it extremely difficult to quantify him.

We know he is stronger than Superman and more durable but not much else. He has Heat Vision that can one shot and bust through Superman yes, but he has no speed feats and his striking power is nothing short of unquantifiable. He has feats of tanking Universe busting attacks but honestly, I am not sure why people take that seriously when he was hurt by way less and it can be argued he was not even hit by the thing. And seeing him get pitted against the likes of Odin, Doctor Strange, King Thor, Galactus... really makes me feel confident in putting him on this list.

Number 3 - Hemsworth Thor (Marvel Cinematic Universe)

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I was originally gonna put Boseman's Black Panther on this list but I heard so many people telling me how Thor is worse, I just had to change it to him. A LOT of Live Action characters are incredibly overrated. When it comes to Thor, I did not see a lot of unreasonable claims for him Pre-Infinity War movie release. I disagreed with some views on him but even those seemed rather understandable. Then Infinity War came out and oh my God, it was a great moment for Thor. Really gave him respect he deserved. Unfortunately, it caused a lot of misconceptions about the character here.

Everybody is aware of his Star level feat. Whether people want to say it is a Neutron Star, White Dwarf, regular Star, fictional Star or whatever, I don't think it is reasonable to assume that is accurate portrayal of the character's power and consistency. In-Universe, it is definitely badass and speaks volumes of his abilities. But based on technicality and consistency, that is not Thor they gave us. He was constantly hurt, staggered and put down by characters and things way below that level, and it would be unreasonable to just say "they just scale off of his Star feat".

Aside from consistency, my main problem is that nature, appearance, function and statements of/about the Star, do not fit any description about real life types of Celestial bodies we are aware of. While writer's intent is pretty clear, from technical perspective, we have no idea what this Star actually is, and we are not aware of how it works or what it's potency is. It is like it has one characteristic for each type of a Star each, but nothing more. Plus, it also seems to be like some people are forgetting that Thor was about to die, and only survived so long because he pushed himself hard enough.

Not really practical in combat. The other reason why I think Thor should be on this list is because of Stormbreaker Infinity Gauntlet Blast deflection feat (that's amountful). Even from showing's perspective itself and the way people use it, it does not make sense. Some say it is planet-Multi Planetary level because Power Gem alone can destroy planet's surface, Power Gem and Space Gem together can casually tear an entire Moon apart, and adding 4 Gems on top of it should make it way more powerful (which makes sense) and scaling those feats off of entire gauntlet, off of Stormbreaker casually overpowering it, makes people say it is Planet-Planet+ level.

Some say it is Universal because the snap of the Gauntlet with all of the gems erased half a life in the entire universe, which logically includes powerful beings from billions of billions of light years away. The problem with these two arguments is that the implications and use of them are not the same. Thanos did not destroy a Moon, erased half a Universe or destroy planet's surface with a blast. He either used a snap to cause a chain reaction/reality warp/whatever, or simply spread the energy of the Gem throughout to bust planetoids. Focused attacks do not have the same potency, as evident by the fact that they were tanked and blocked by people who obviously have no planet to Universal level durability, even with Power Gem. This was seen with both Thanos and Ronan.

Another problem is that that feat is practically irrelevant because the producers confirmed that Stormbreaker is not comparable to the Gems. It is just a good counter to it due to the fact that axe and gauntlet are made by the same guy and in similar way. While they were confused themselves and obviously did not provide the explanation that is good enough, they did compare it to a Death Star having a flaw which allows way weaker ships to destroy it. Basically, Stormbreaker overpowered the Gems, because the plot of the movie had to end. It was not actually stronger.

Number 4 - Cavill Superman (DC Extended Universe)

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Ehhh, where do I begin with this guy. The first thing I will say about him is that I don't think a lot of people actually pay attention to necessary details and instead just give in to the hype and go on with it. Which is perfectly fine. We all have our fanboy side. But if you want to argue, you need to pay attention to the details, and as far as I can tell, Clark's most popular feat on this forum is, practically non existing. Argument I see from his supporters is how he was moving so quickly, he made Wonder Woman, another incredibly fast character, look like a statue.

While it is true that he was moving faster relative to her, the main problem with this argument is that Diana was not in control of her own movement when this happened. During that short scene when Clark had a super speed fight with Barry and perception of the world was different, Diana was in a state where she was overpowered by Superman and thrown to the side. In other words, she was not in a state where she could not be outspeeded because she was not even moving. Clark threw her and since he is way stronger, she could not do anything about it until she just stops flying.

In truth, the only thing Clark statued was her thrown body, which honestly is not particularly impressive given that those can easily be tracked down by human eyes, and one thing a lot of people forget is that when perception of the world was changed to indicate super speed, Clark AND Barry were in slow motion as well. They were not moving normally. They were also slow for us viewers. They were just not as slow as anything else we were able to see, which does not mean much because nothing was fast there in the first place. I know Clark was able to keep up with the Flash but we have no idea how fast the Flash was moving, and during actual fight, Barry was dodging Clark with no difficulty, only getting tagged because he lacked skill, was afraid and was not really in good position to dodge.

Claiming Clark is faster than Diana is reasonable given that he stopped her bracelet slam from several feet away, but she had no problem tagging him, twice for that matter, and I haven't seen anything to suggest he is capable of freezing her. Besides that, I have seen so many people use his traveling speed like they are combat speed feats. Sure, Mach 400 whatever. He moved from one side of the planet to the next one. But that is not combat or reaction time speed. And granted, while he did use speed a bit more in JL movie and actually both blitzed and dodged, I am honestly tired of hearing people say how he statues or blitzes and overwhelmed because, while he does do that, he does not abuse it like he is Eobard Thawne, and was tagged multiple times no problem.

People who take his tectonic strength feat or apparent Black Hole feat seriously do not make it any better either, but those are more occasional so it would be unfair for me to give him a hard time for that but, still worth mentioning.

Number 5 - Grant Gustin Flash Barry Allen (Arrowverse)

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To be honest, Flash is probably not as nearly as bad as, well, anybody on this list, since he actually has feats to back up a lot of claims . That said, the way those feats are used is something I find to be highly inaccurate (note, I am only talking strictly about Pre-Season 5 Flash because I did not watch Season 5, but I don't think that is unfair on my part because every single thing I will say here will be based on my experience on threads that came out before Season 5 was even released).

One of my problems with arguments I see is the Flashtime ability. It is being constantly brought up as something that will fix the problem and give Barry the win. Which is flawed argument given that Barry used Flashtime only three times, one of which was on accident so it does not really matter, and the other two times weren't even used for combat. I'm not watching Season 5 but everyone I talked to told me that he never used Flashtime there, so why would I assume he would use it in combat?

While these are not as frequent as the former, they still pop up enough for me to mention them. I often see the phasing argument and I am pretty sure Barry never used phasing offensively. And he was morals off-bloodlusted multiple times and he did not use it. And to be honest, he does not use it just to phase around often enough. Despite his power and experience, Barry honestly isn't that proficient with his powers, either with special ones like phasing or just using speed overall.

I won't cherry pick instances when he was tagged by something absurd but I don't see why slower opponents can't tag them if they play it smart, because Barry honestly isn't that hard to counter unless he has prep, help or prior knowledge and experience fighting the enemy, unless the enemy in question is a different speedster. Another problem I have with Barry is striking power argument.

Sure, destroying a satellite is impressive. They are big. However, he still needed a lot of momentum and running around to preform such a feat, something that he does not do often and is not the most practical thing to do. Second, he needed help to do so, which makes the feat less impressive. But my main problem with this is that some claim that Barry actually has extinction level striking power because the threat of the satellite was extinction level.

1) We do not know what that means. It is vague term. Is it city level? Country? Continent? Surface level? I don't know about you but I highly doubt that above average satellite falling can cause Dinosaur extinction. 2) Mostly the destruction that would be caused by the satellite comes from massive amounts of momentum it gets from falling. While this would be a factor if one tries to stop it with their strength, someone who has absurd speed and does not need to stop it but blow it up with a punch, I mean, I am not sure why it does not just require regular satellite level striking power.

Sure it will cause a lot of damage but it has a lot of momentum. And you are not trying to stop it but destroy it, and you are incredibly fast. You don't need to match it's destructive capabilities. You only need to back a punch good enough destroy whatever is coming towards you.

My least favorite argument supporting CW Flash is BFR argument. A lot of people suggest he will just BFR his opponent into the Speed Force. Let me ask you, when has Barry every BFR'd anyone into the Speed Force? When has it been seen/shown/stated that he can bring somebody else into the Speed Force? When did he try or when was it suggested he should do such a thing? As far as I know, the answer for all of these questions is, none. Besides, even if he were to BFR someone, he still needs to have enough force to push someone, and against characters he is pitted against, like 616 Hulk, he would likely just hurt himself. On top of that, we do not know how much momentum and time it would take him to carry on somebody else into the Speed Force, which could open him to an attack.

Number 6 - Harry Potter (Live Action Adaptations/Movies)

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Out of all the non-Comic/Cartoon/Manga Movie/TV Show characters, I haven't seen anything more overhyped than Harry Potter. The main two problems with threads with him are, No Limit Fallacy arguments and In-Universe arguments. The first one is exactly how it seems. It is just disregarding all the feats and logic and pushing the idea of Harry's (or any character's from the universe for that matter) spell, working on anyone no matter how durable, resistant or powerful they are. And that is simply because those spells never failed to preform well unless they are facing similar spells, therefor, their limit is unknown, and instead of focusing on actual feats, we just assume they can just put everyone down.

This is the problem with logic like this because lack of evidence for something does not support the idea of the opposite being unquestionably true. That would mean that if an obscured character shows up and never fights anybody, therefor never loses, but we know has a super power, is stronger than anybody, despite never actually doing anything. Feats are not there because they are the only source of info. They are there because we need something to quantify or at least have a base of how well something can preform against something else. Not failing does not mean you can't fail. It just means you never really tested yourself against something/someone that is too much for you. When it comes to In-Universe problem, the argument is quite similar but logic behind it is the same.

Another argument used in these threads is, a said character can't resist those spells simply because he never resisted them. Sure, he resisted spells and magical attacks in his own universe, but they are not magical attacks and spells from Harry Potter, and therefor, those feats are irrelevant. Which isn't really fair because it puts a debater in a position where he has to prove something impossible, and if this logic were to apply for anything, there should never be a thing like threads where characters from different universe fight. Disregarding feats like resisting telepathy like magical attacks when one posts transmutation feats is fine, but disregarding everything even when nature of feats fits the quality necessary to resist said spell/attack, argument does not really have a leg to stand on.

Number 7 - Rick from Rick & Morty (Cartoons)

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In my opinion, prep time overall is pretty overrated. Especially when it comes from so called prep masters, geniuses who use tech. It is too circumstantial and relies too much on assumptions. Those who have no prep feats have no material to draw from. Those that do usually have shit ton of them, and it is almost impossible to make an argument that the character will rely on that specific strategy if he has no knowledge. And if he does have knowledge, it can also be very likely he will do something else, and then there is no material to draw from either. The best most valid tactic I see is for them to bring every single piece of tech they have, and to me, that is either impractical or just pointless.

Rick Sanchez suffers from these same problems. As well as another thing often seen in prep masters battles. People often confuse engineer feats and intelligence feats with actual prep feats. They assume that everything that is built can be used in prep battles, and the more impressive it is, the more effective it will be in combat. Which is not the case because, and this applies for Rick as well, a lot of inventions he creates that are absurdly impressive, are not really relevant to prep battles, because they are either impractical or it is just unreasonable to use them in prep battles. On top of that, Rick actually relied on prep countless times, and he never used tactics I heard people bring up.

I also think a lot of his feats are sometimes taken out of context, either on accident or to fit the narrative of the outcome they expect to happen despite the fact that it is rather questionable. In the realm of overall engineering skills and intelligence, Rick is extremely impressive and kind of absurd in that regard, but I do think that a lot of his feats are overrated, either because they are just not impressive compared to the ones they are pitted against, or are, again, taken out of context.

Number 8 - Kratos from God of War (Video Games)

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Kratos is incredibly controversial character. And that is simply because everyone has their own interpretation of his feats. The problem however is, his concrete and/or quantifiable feats, don't put him above mid tier level. But he is considered to be tiers above that based on statements and nothing else. The problem with these statements is, they are mostly not concrete and don't sound legit in nature, and top of it, they do not even come from developers and writers but designers. People who while are involved in the series, have nothing to do with actual story or character portrayal. And scaling Kratos does have, which mostly comes from his fights with other Gods, are not even used in a way that has a leg to stand on, because it relies on gameplay mechanics. Unless it is a quick time event or some action you can not ignore if you want to move forward with the story, which mostly is not the case, you can't really expect a valid argument due to the fact that gameplay mechanics and character's portrayal of power and skill depends entirely on player's choices, skill and methods. Based on what example you take, you can go from barely beating your opponent, to absolutely dominating him. And even then, those can not be valid sources because we also don't know what actually put an opponent down. Was it a standard weapon? Was it raw strength? Some other ability?

Scaling from the Gods also makes Kratos look like this planet level being or even Skyfather level being because those Gods are apparently on those levels too, but that is also supported by statements that are incredibly vague and not even combat related, and they also come from people who are not writers or main developers, making them even less valid. Because all other sources of info one can use for Kratos are incredibly questionable and iffy and not really hard to argue against, the best tool one can use to decide how strong Kratos is and expect a legit argument that can have a leg to stand on, are his concrete and quantifiable feats. Unfortunately for him, like I said before, those do not go above mid tier range, and those that seem more impressive are based off of nothing but scaling that is incredibly flawed. But again, he is viewed as a character who is way way more impressive than that.

Number 9 - Darth Nihilus (Star Wars)

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It's one thing to strait up overhype or wank the character, but having so many feats that are contradicted by so many sources completely disconnected from the ones that present actual feats is another. The misconception that comes from Nihilus is often times not even fan's fault, because they simply use feats from sources they actually looked into, without simply being aware of other sources or statements that either contradict or make his feats that much less impressive.

As far as I know, no abilities Nihilus has are actually overrated aside from Force Drain. But that does not mean much because Force Drain is his trump card and ability he is known for the most. Even when someone brings up Force Drain, the first thing that would pop to their minds is Nihilus. And 99% of arguments supporting Nihilus rely on Force Drain to make a point. One of his most notable feats is draining Darth Traya, a powerful Sith Lord also proficient with Force Drain.

The problem with this is, authors actually confirmed that the only reason why she was successfully drained, is because she did not expect to be drained, and was therefor, caught off guard. Avellone would also mention that it is possible to resist Force Drain, using Revan as a reference, stating he could counter it. And given the context, it is very possible that Traya could resist it to, or even being overall more proficient than Nihilus, as shown when she drained 3 Council Masters.

Another popular feat Nihilus has is draining entire planet and it's inhabitants of life, on-panel of Star Wars Tales. And this feat has the same problem as previous one. There is more to it than meets the eye, as confirmed by other sources, Nihilus does not actually drain planets and it's inhabitants of life. Instead, he uses his fleet to blast it into ruin, killing everything on it and damaging the planet. Then, he feeds off of death and destruction of the planet he caused.

While this still shows impressive levels of energy manipulation, the context makes it so much less relevant in combat because he is not draining anything from something/someone, but absorbs already dispersed energy. This level of power is solid, but it is something that can be resisted by stable minded, knowledgeable, proficient or powerful Jedi and Sith alike, and one most certainly does not need to be God tier to resist Nihilus' Force Drain. But out of context feats are not even his biggest problem.

The worst thing about Nihilus is that his Force Drain ability is overhyped to the point of being No Limit Fallacy power. Everyone assumes he can just instantly drain everyone with no difficulty, supported by statements that claim Force Drain can not be countered, statements contradicted by on-panel/screen showings and people who wrote source material themselves. It is also often disregarded that Nihilus needs a lot of energy to successfully drain an opponent, making it risky move as well.

Overall, Darth Nihilus is a Star Wars character who suffers from too much hype. He has so much implied power for his own good, yet when you look at him closely, he is mostly just a pretty formidable opponent. But would get destroyed by the likes of Luke Skywalker, Master Yoda, Darth Sidious, Emperor Vitiate and so on, and does not really compare to top tiers of the verse in any way.

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That's my list. Hopefully you find it entertaining because that is what it is suppose to be, as stated above. I also hope I didn't piss anyone off with this list but if I did, my apologizes. That was not my intention. Again, this is not suppose to be a rant blog. Just me sharing my thoughts and experience on Battle Forum.

16 Comments

Top 10 Dragon Ball Characters

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Counting characters from Manga only. No Anime filler, games and movies that Toriyama wasn't involved in exclusives. I count original Dragon Ball series, Z and Super. No GT exclusives. I am not a huge fan of the series as I was waaaay back in a day, and frankly I forgot a lot of stuff Pre-Super, especially Dragon Ball one. But I think I remember it enough to make a decent list so, here it is.

Honorable Mention:

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Mr. Satan

Number #10 - King Kai

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King Kai seems like a perfect side character to me. He is a great combination of comedy relief as well as outside plot device. Moments when he loses or just talks to people are always entertaining to watch, yet despite all that, he is incredibly wise and is far from just a source for gags. After all, he taught Goku two powerful techniques, one of which practically killed the final main villain of the original series. He also (kinda) helped with saving the Earth from Cell, and was constantly there to help others by either informing them or giving them means to communicate, which contributed in final plots of latter 3 sagas.

Number #9 - Master Roshi

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I don't really have much to say about Master Roshi. I just think he is a great "sensei" type of character. He taught Goku the trait mark move of the series, Kamehameha wave, and his training and stuff he, Goku and Krillin went through was honestly really entertaining to see. What I also like about Roshi tho is that he is not standard wise type of sensei often seen in media, but has more freedom in terms of his personality and actions, and has sense of humor.

Number #8 - Krillin

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It's Krillin. You can't make a list without Krillin. He used to be Goku's best friend and the second main character and they both went through several adventures together. He stayed the main character but ultimately became one of less relevant ones even for that category. Still, Krillin showed to be formidable despite his lack of raw power, learning one of the coolest offensive techniques in the series, capable of killing people way way more powerful than him. I also think he had a cool arc where he just tried to be social and family type of guy, but get back to fighting anyway since it was necessarily.

Number #7 - Gohan

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Out of all the characters in Dragon Ball, Gohan is probably my favorite in terms of overall character development. He was a whiny, scared and incapable kid, and even after Piccolo took him under his wing, he was still like that. Until he realized what it means to be matured and become a fighter. However, at the end of Saiyan Saga arc and even in Namek arc, despite his huge jumps in power, he still ended up being afraid and saved by everybody else. He did become Super Saiyan eventually, but not much changed. He still stayed the same. Until Goku pushed him to his limits during their training, allowing Gohan to unlock the level of power surpassing everyone in the series up to that point. But he could only reach that level for a second and it required huge amount of rage. After taking a beating from Cell and seeing his friends slowly die by his hand, Gohan still only thought of stopping the fight so nobody has to kill anyone else. But after Android 16's speech about life ended with Cell destroying him without a second thought, Gohan finally transformed into the first SSJ2, far surpassing Cell in power. This is a great character moment because Gohan's potential was hinted multiple times throughout the series, yet he always kept being the one who is saved, and did not contribute much when he wasn't. Finally he became independent and faced the Cell alone, overpowering him while nobody else was coming close to him. And this moment that was suppose to make him grow is what caused the death of his father. His arrogance and rage led to Cell's self destruction and necessity for Goku's sacrifice, which ironically made Cell way more powerful regardless, making a very dramatic and beautiful scene where everything seems lost, even Vegeta saying he's sorry. At the end, Gohan manages to defeat Cell through the help of his father and his friends. Cell Saga was in my opinion the best saga when it comes to character arc. Why is Gohan so low on the list? I think Super ruined him honestly.

Number #6 - Piccolo

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Piccolo is also one of those Dragon Ball characters with a lot of character development. He started as just a younger version of his father. Evil, ruthless, powerful and vengeful, having no desires but to brutally murder Goku for killing King Piccolo and then taking over the world, and murdering tons of people as well. Eventually he was defeated by Goku but was spared at the end. The threat of immensely powerful Saiyans coming to Earth led to Piccolo forming an alliance with the Z fighters, training Goku's son Gohan, who had immense potential. He was cruel to him, only using him as a tool, but eventually started to care for the boy, evident by the fact that he died saving his life, after barely fighting against the Saiyans along with Z Fighters. He spent time on King Kai's world along with other Z fighters, until he helped them yet again in a fight against Frieza and later Androids, receiving massive power upgrades during those two events. While his relevance massively decreased in Super, what makes Piccolo so great is his journey to becoming a good guy. Even as a kid, he was never truly evil, but chaos and horror he saw throughout the world, as well as influence by his father, made him what he is. Until he started to fight for something and someone other than himself, even finding out who and what he really is, and where he'd come from. What I also like about Piccolo are several techniques he has, his ability to regenerate, and his interesting and unique form of training. Plus, he is easily one of more intelligent protagonists in the show, often being aware of things that are happening before everyone else.

Number #5 - Cell

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Cell is like evil version of Goku. He strives towards Ultimate Power, but not due to becoming the best fighter ever, but becoming a perfect being. Instead of training, he relied on Life Force draining. Instead of traveling to meet new fighters, he intended to travel in order to destroy. Still, he loved the thrill of fighting just like Goku, interested to test his capabilities and his opponent's, while also having a lot of respect for them. Ironically, this curiosity led to Gohan becoming the first SSJ2, and eventually killing Cell. Still, his intelligence was quite remarkable, and his hax is pretty absurd for a Dragon Ball character, possessing Saiyan's ability to grow stronger the more they get hurt, Frieza's ability to survive anywhere, and Piccolo's ability to regenerate, but on much greater scale. On top of that, he is technically responsible for the second death of series' main character, Goku.

Number #4 - Frieza

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Frieza's relationships with Goku and Vegeta make him an interesting and probably the best villain in all of Dragon Ball, something I think a lot of people would agree with. He killed Vegeta's father, erased his race, destroyed his planet, and turned him into a slave. By the same token, Goku's father Bardock was the last Saiyan Frieza laid eyes on ever (not including survivors and new generation), and the only one who encountered him face to face besides King Vegeta. Ultimately, it was the last survivor of the race he despised, feared and destroyed, that led to his ultimate downfall.

Number #3 - Son Goku

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It's Goku. He is the main character. No reason to explain why he is so high on this list.

Number #2 - Beerus

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Beerus is easily my favorite character from Super. His origin is clouded in mystery as far as I'm aware, but that is because it is irrelevant. He is the God of Destruction of the Universe where our main characters live in and destroys several planets for the sake of balance. There is not much we need to know about him besides the fact that he was actually responsible for planet Vegeta's destruction, although details were never provided (at least as far as I am aware, didn't watch the new movie yet). Like Goku and Cell, Beerus loves fighting, but has less passion for raw combat and is more obsessed with finding a rival who can match his might. Being the most powerful being in the Universe, the only one who could match him was his brother Champa, the God of Destruction from another Universe, and most of their fights are results of sibling rivalry and frustration, rather than challenge. Regardless of that, Beerus' incredible power, yet the ability to remain social, and even patient from time to time despite his short temper, is what makes him interesting. While I don't find his relationship with his teacher Whiz funny, I find it entertaining to watch. Beerus can be funny or used as comedy relief, but when he loses it, he loses it, and sometimes acts like a madman and sometimes is just calm and extremely intimidating.

Number #1 - Vegeta

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Vegeta is my number 1. I don't think that's surprising. There are a lot of fans of the show who prefer Vegeta over Goku, and I am one of them. I simply find him to be a cooler character, in multiple ways.

10 Comments

Top 20 Favorite Naruto Characters

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I already made like 2 Naruto lists so I figured I should make probably the most interesting one, my 20 favorite Naruto characters (in order). Order may change, especially when it comes to those from 11-20 because it is pretty difficult to come up with this list, and even more difficult to come up with the order.

Honorable mentions:

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  • Orochimaru
  • Rock Lee
  • Third Hokage

Number #20 - Iruka

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I think Iruka deserves at least the last spot on this list. While he is pretty weak and has almost no screen time, the fact that this guy who has nothing to do with this kid Naruto who does not have anybody or anything, just comes around and acts like his father figure in more ways than one, is just beautiful. Despite the fact that he is the host of Nine Tailed Fox, the creature that killed his parents. And despite of that, he still becomes pretty much the only family the kid has. Shows how Iruka is just a good person, with no so called "shades of grey" cliches we often see in fiction. Which is even more creditable given the cruel reality and world we were introduced to in Naruto Universe.

Number #19 - Tsunade

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Tsunade was never really one of my absolute favorite characters in the series, mainly because she did not really do much. She fought Madara but her contribution to that fight wasn't as interesting to be as Ohnoki's. However, I still have to put her on the list due to the arc she was introduced in. I think she had one of the best character introductions in the show, mostly due to her experience and personality. It does seem relatively realistic. She is old, experienced, sad, jaded, tired and does not care about anything but wasting her years on drinking and gambling. In a way she is the opposite of Naruto, who is young, naive and has goals that seem ridiculous to her. But after seeing how motivated this kid is, also reminding her of the loved ones she lost, made her still find some hope and care in her heart, motivating herself as well to step in and do her job and become the Leader of her village.

Number #18 - Minato Namikaze

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I don't think it is surprising that Minato is on this list. He is the ultimate badass of the show in every way. Powers, abilities, behavior, reputation, statements and achievements. He has two of Naruto's trait mark techniques as well as coolest teleportation jutsu in the series. He was hyped up since the very beginning, and he eventually came back kicking ass with his own Kurama mode (which is dumb but still cool). A bigger question probably is, why is he so low on the list? Well that's simply because I don't find him that interesting aside from his badass moments, lore influence and just being a chill dude. Those characteristics are all pretty cool, but not enough to put him above on the list.

Number #17 - Obito Uchiha

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Obito was written pretty badly after he got unmasked. The reveal of him not being Madara was a great plot device in my opinion, and he was still equally intimidating regardless. Heroes trying to figure out how Kamui works during their fight was very very cool too. But his identity was too predictable at the end in my opinion, and while it was introduced perfectly, Obito's execution was bad. He was too much of a douche, repeated himself way too many times and the way Kishimoto wrote him, it does seem like the only way he did all this was because he could not get the girl (which I do not agree with but it was written that way). That said, Obito's life as Madara is a joy to watch. In some ways he is cooler than Madara himself. Instead of being powerful, he is mysterious and manipulative, and that sometimes made him even more interesting and intimidating than Madara himself. The problem is, at the end of the day, he was just coping Madara, and does not deserve enough credit for me to put him above.

Number #16 - Nagato

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After Itachi, Nagato is probably the most relatable character in Naruto. His origin was just tragic, and it focuses on real life aspects like war and politics. Which I really like because in Naruto, while a lot of characters are relatable, they often go through stuff that are impossible, but with Nagato, it is easy to imagine him in real world. Lost his parents in war, barely survived, lived like a thief and later tried to improve his weak and undeveloped country, only to lose everything in the process, becoming a broken man twisted by his own philosophy. Nagato is also pretty intimidating and mysterious during his time as Pain, because we had absolutely no idea who or what he was. It was really engaging to see all those questions being, more so asked than strait up answered. And he introduced us to the Rinnegan too.

Number #15 - Shikamaru Nara

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Shikamaru was this chill dude who was lazy and saw everything as pain on the ass. And he wasn't particularly powerful, just versatile. But he is arguably the smartest character in the show both tactical skill wise, observation wise and raw intelligence wise. The stuff he is capable of pulling out with his brain alone makes him way more dangerous. I think the reason why I like Shikamaru so much is what he is capable of accomplishing despite the fact that he is barely even a side character. Yet his achievements rival those of the main cast. And how he stopped being lazy and became a good leader was cool too.

Number #14 - Shisui Uchiha

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If not for the fact that Shisui has no real appearances, he would probably be way higher on the list. He was a member of the Uchiha clan, which he loved very much. And despite how badly the village treated the entire clan, he still remained completely royal to the village, going as far as to actually mind control the leader of his own clone to prevent attack on the village by the Uchiha (which was understandable partially given the circumstances). And still, one of the village's leaders, Danzo, stole his eye and almost killed him due to lack of trust. And again, despite all that, Shisui only wanted to protect the village (and the Uchiha if possible) regardless of circumstances, with zero hate or frustration. Even going as far as to give his remaining eye to Itachi to use it if possible, and killing himself to both give Itachi more power and prevent anyone from finding his body and use it for their own needs, all with the smile on his face. Shisui showed great care and royalty, impressive given that he was a part of clan cursed by hatred.

Number #13 - Itachi Uchiha

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Everybody loves Itachi. He is everybody's favorite. I don't think I need to explain myself. Why is he so low? Honestly, I kind got tired of seeing him, both from the show/Manga and the fanbase. Don't kill me.

Number #12 - Jiraiya

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Jiraiya is like combination of Iruka, Third Hokage and Kakashi combined. He is a father figure, mentor, supporter, teacher and sensei, and can also be goofy and funny at times. His relationship with Nagato, as well as the fact that he was a teacher of both Naruto and his father, indirectly giving him his name and becoming his Godfather, were all very touching. What was really cool about Jiraiya to me is that despite his experience, power, knowledge, training, wisdom and skill, his entire life was, as he himself says, nothing but a failure. He never really did anything he wanted and will never really be remembered for achievements that are his own. Still, believing he has one last job to do, he ended up failing, but still dying at piece with the knowledge that he gave everyone a fighting chance, and that the child he trained to bring peace to the world all along, will actually do it. Just not the one who he expected.

Number #11 - Gaara

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Gaara was introduced as the reflection of Naruto. They were the same. He was basically what Naruto would have become if he didn't eventually meet people who will become his friends and family. This turned him into terrifying yet sad monster, and his fight with Naruto made him learn how he feels, while also teaching Naruto that true strength comes from the will to protect yourself as opposed to Gaara, who at the time believed that true strength comes from caring for no one but yourself. And so on...

Number #10 - Ohnoki

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It's weird that Ohnoki is so high on this list, but he grew on me during mid War Arc. He is the only character besides Mu who to my knowledge possesses Kekkei Tota, and it's pretty badass ability. Dust release has only one jutsu, but it is basically transmutation. It is so powerful yet written in a way that is not broken. Aside from the fact that I consider Ohnoki to be the most powerful of the 5 Kage who faced Madara, and the fact that he has more fighting experience than anyone in the series up to that point, what really makes Ohnoki so interesting to me is his willpower. The whole "will of stone" was emotional, and seeing him stand up to God Among Men like Madara regardless of the fact that he is outmatched, was epic. And decades afterwards, he faces him again as an old man, and even with the help of other Kage, he is still outmatched. And despite all that, he deflects Madara's attack, saves everyone and keeps going. Madara even acknowledged the fact that he is the real problem, and in my opinion, he did the most impressive thing out of all 5 during their fight. And even after Madara easily dealt with their combined power, and proved to be capable of destroying mountains with a portion of his power, breaking the will of all the Kage and showing just how far above he is compared to them, Ohnoki still had will and hope to keep going. After Madara was able to resist Edo Tensei and remain in the world of the living, which broke the will of Kage even further, Ohnoki was STILL ready to fight him. Oh and him growing to care for all the Ninja even tho he was a douche at the start was also cool.

Number #9 - Killer Bee

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Killer Bee is just cool to me. He has cool character moments and is both skilled and powerful. He is not very funny even tho he is suppose to be, but I don't know. I just always find him entertaining when I see him on screen/panel. He just seems likable.

Number #8 - Hagoromo Otsutsuki

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Yes, putting Hagoromo here is weird, but I feel like him being responsible for all of the Naruto Universe is enough to give him a spot on this list. All the powers basically come from him (well his mother but, nobody likes Kaguya). But what I really like about Hagoromo is how he always wanted to connect people and make them understand each other, never wanting to use Chakra as a weapon. And he never let his power corrupt him like his mother, instead sharing it with others. His arc in the Anime was pretty much the only filler arc that I liked and finished. What I also like about him is how determined he was. He was ready to seal his mother, and even after endless fighting between his sons and their reincarnations, he kept watching them without anguish, still having the will and belief that eventually, a world he wanted to create will come, making him believe in Naruto and Sasuke. But still, he did not blindly believe they will succeed and was skeptical, unlike, well, anyone else in the show.

Number #7 - Kurama (Nine Tails)

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It's probably dumb to add Kurama here too, but I think he deserves the spot. I like how even after becoming friends with Naruto, he is still terrifying, intimidating and ruthless. And when he's not, he often trolls Naruto himself. Plus, he is absurdly powerful and what is always cool. What really made me like Kurama tho is how creepy he was during Part 1 and first half of Part 2. He really seemed demonic, and there was always this fear of him finally coming out and taking Naruto over, yet he needs his power to beat his enemies. Still, growing from embodiment of hatred to Naruto's ally was cool to see

Number #6 - Tobirama Senju

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My reasons for liking Tobirama are ironically similar to the reasons why I like his so called counterpart, Minato. The guy is just a badass. He can use Water Release where there is no water, he has both Shadow Clones and Flying Thunder God. However, he actually created them which is badass. Along with Edo Tensei technique. He has cool design in my opinion, he is obsessed with Uchiha in a way that is pretty much hilarious, has cool voice, and is overall badass and intimidating. His care for the village is what I think makes him cool, but unlike everything else, he has a hard heart, has a lot of will and is ruthless, looking at things more objectively than based on bias, something that is completely uncommon in Naruto. This is the case for Uchiha as well, as he did trust some Uchiha members. Plus, the scene where he killed Izuna was badass. Why he is so high on the list, I am not sure. For some reason, I just really really like the character, even tho he barely has any appearances.

Number #5 - Naruto & Sasuke

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These are two main characters so it's no surprise they are here. The reason why they are tied however? Is simply because I always go back and forth from liking one more than the other, and then changing my opinion later. I've come to a conclusion that both of which characters have the exact same amount of categories that piss me off, and that also helps with putting them on the same spot.

Number #4 - Might Guy

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Guy is the character who truly proves that you can be the strongest with nothing but hard work. Originally Lee was the main character who focused on that story, but he didn't really have any relevant fights after his (epic) fight with Gaara. Guy kept showing new levels of power, beating strongest characters around like Kisame, with his raw strength alone. Until he faced Madara who pretty much became the most powerful being ever, and almost killed him after beating the shit out of him with the 8th Gate (albeit Madara let him hit him and Guy had help from others during the fight). It was revealed that Guy's origin was pretty much like Lee's but in my opinion, way better, more emotional and makes more sense. And besides that, everything else about Guy is really cool to me. His personality, his voice and relationship with Kakashi are always entertaining to watch/listen.

Number #3 - Hashirama Senju

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I really like Hashirama. And I'm not sure why exactly. I really like his Wood Release. It's weird to have trees as to most powerful nature in the verse (mostly), and yet it looks broken and badass. The fact that he was hyped up to be the most powerful Ninja of all time (excluding Hagoromo) and that everyone is ripping their hairs out just to get a portion of his cells, I mean, it's pretty cool. He was so powerful, he turned all the Biju into his pets, and Madara Uchiha needed the strongest one to fight Hashirama and still lost. He also has a cool personality, being nice, goofy and wise, while also humble yet extremely powerful. And I personally find his history, life and relationship with Madara to be way better than Naruto's and Sasuke's, and I wish we had more chapters dedicated to their past.

Number #2 - Kakashi Hatake

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Kakashi is also fan's favorite. I don't think I need to explain why he is so high.

Number #1 - Madara Uchiha

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Yes, Madara is my number 1. And I know, you may disagree... but...

7 Comments

New 52/Rebirth Darkseid Respect Thread

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Originally I wanted to make one Respect Thread for all versions of Darkseid in one thread. Pre-Crisis, Pre-Flashpoint and New 52/Rebirth. However, due to not making this too long and tedious to read, I decided to separate it into two. One for everything before Flashpoint, and one for everything after. While this should technically be the second one, there is a lot less reading material for Post-Flashpoint Darkseid than Pre-Flashpoint Darkseid. Therefor, I decided to make this one first. I got interested in the character pretty recently and considering the fact that he is one of those characters that a lot of people argue over (whether they support him or his opponent), none of them really read a lot of Darkseid comics, if any of them for that matter. So I decided to make complete respect thread for the character so people can know what he is capable of. Not that I want or expect anyone to use these threads as a reference every time they talk about Darkseid, but this is still there as a supporting source of info. This will be similar to regular format I rely on when I made RTs. For the record, I will also use feats preformed by Darkseid's daughter Grail, because she has all of his powers and she is weaker than Darkseid, so he can scale off of her. Enjoy.

Origin and History

The Origin of Darkseid was changed pretty significantly since Flashpoint "reboot". Although the core of the character pretty much remained the same. He is powerful force of the Universe everybody is afraid of. He rules Apokolips with an iron fist and possesses the power of the Omega Effect (although the Omega Effect has never been explored and explained in detail as nearly as much as it was Pre-Flashpoint). He is also the Brother and an enemy of the High Father and New Genesis and a father of Orion. But his road to becoming the New God was changed drastically compared to Jack Kirby's introduction way back in a day.

While his origin wasn't introduced to us during his initial introduction, it was revealed in Justice League Vol. 2#23.1by Greg Pak. Because most New 52 titles went hand in hand and were releasing the same issues every month consistently, until final issue #52, DC decided to include these prequel issues where they will stop focusing on the plot with the release of the issues, and focus on origins of certain characters. For example, New 52's Flash 23.1 served as introduction to Gorilla Grodd. issue 23.2 provided origin for Reverse Flash, and issue 23.3 focused on the Rogues, even tho the plot of the title at the time focused on Flash vs. Daniel West.

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This issue did exactly that, but it focused on Darkseid completely, not being connected to current (at the time) ongoing stories in the Justice League title. What we learned in this issue is that Darkseid was originally a man named Uxas, and unlike his Pre-Flashpoint counterpart, he wasn't always the New God. Instead, he was a mortal and a farmer who struggled to survive with his sister and his brother in law. And all of them were at the mercy of the Old Gods, and while other mortals prayed to the Old Gods and were grateful when they didn't kill them, Uxas hated the Old Gods for not only "not giving a shit about them", but for accidentally killing the mortals and making fun of it once they realized it.

In order to get rid of them, he manipulated the Old Gods, influencing them in their sleep and making them not trust one another, starting the war between all of the Old Gods. Most Old Gods caused a lot of damage to one another, weakening them and allowing Uxas to kill them. Once he killed all of them, Uxas absorbed their Life Force, becoming the first New God, Darkseid. While his sister in law died in that conflict, Uxas' brother in law encountered one of the Old Gods, who gave his powers to him. And thus, he became Highfather and challenged Darkseid, fighting him to a standstill and trying to convince him to "stop this" madness.

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For full introduction to Darkseid's origin, click here.

Darkseid and Highfather fought for seven entire days, which cost the life of an entire planet and several lives. Highfather became the ruler of New Genesis, and Darkseid became the ruler of Apokolips. Ruling it with an iron fist, he went into the Multiverse, seeking to conquer it and control it. He also searched for Anti-Life Equation, which will allow him to erase the concept of will from existence and control all life, while the New Gods sought Life Equation (although, Anti Life wasn't as nearly as focused on or as explored as it was Pre-Flashpoint, nor did Darkseid often reference or or sought it on panel as nearly as much as his Pre-Flashpoint version did). - Green Lantern/New Gods: Godhead #1.

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Darkseid spent centuries traveling across the Multiverse, conquering and destroying worlds, playing a lot of roles as a ruler, warrior, tyrant, destroyer, explorer and even a father to several children. At some point, he gave his son, Orion to New Genesis under the request of Metron, in order to avoid a never ending and certainly catastrophic war between New Genesis and Apocalypse.

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However, Infinity Man and the Forever People #5 apparently retcons this information, stating that Darkseid and Highfather, weren't actually brothers in law, but actual brothers and sons of Yuga Khan, who apparently brought back the Old Gods killed by Uxas and started a war with his two sons, Uxas and Izaya (who will later become the Highfather). Uxas killed their father and he and his brother Izaya became the New Gods, although this kinda contradicts his first origin story and leaves a lot of holes. Especially Yuga Khan being in the possession of the Anti Life Equation. Regardless, Darkseid and Highfather started a war later.

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However, this information was apparently retconned again by Geoff Johns, who later revealed that Mobius, the Anti Monitor, was actually in the possession of the Anti Life Equation all along, which actually turned him into the Anti God, all without Darkseid's knowledge. - Justice League Vol. 2 #44.

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At some point, Metron, the Omniscient owner of the Mobius Chair, decided to end the conflict between New Genesis and Apokolips, by making a deal with Darkseid and Highfather to trade their sons, allowing them to move to opposite sides of their respective fathers and start peace. Darkseid agreed, and after a lot of convincing, even Highfather did, and Darkseid, who had many sons, sent his young son, Orion to live on New Genesis, while Highfather picked his youngest son, who would later be known as Mister Miracle - Justice League Vol. 2 #40.

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Eventually, Darkseid figured out about the existence of Earth, and Superman (Earth 2 Universe to be more precise). He acknowledged Superman's power, and that power has to belong to Darkseid. He sent Steppenwolf and an army of Parademons to attack Earth 2. While his plan to conquer that world failed, it's world's version of Batman and Wonder Woman died, and Superman was considered to be dead as well, but was actually kept in Desaad's lair, which allowed him to create evil Superman clone, Brutaal, who possessed the power of the Omega Effect. Brutaal led Darkseid's forces along with Steppenwolf yet again, when they tried to conquer the Earth for the second time. While it was believed that Brutaal actually was the original Earth 2 Superman people knew, this was proven to be false when he was destroyed in a fight with New Heroes of Earth 2. Darkseid had enough and sent his Furies and Desaad to finally conquer Earth 2. He faced heroes of Earth 2 himself, easily beating them until Alan Scott unlocked his full power and overpowered him. Regardless, most most of Earth 2's population were killed by Darkseid and his forces, and while New Wonders were able to safe a noticeable amount of Earth 2's population and escape Darkseid, the Dark God finally conquered the Earth 2, allowing Apokolips to consume it and stabilize itself.

Darkseid encountered Prime Earth's/Main DC Continuity heroes and their Justice League. Sending their Parademons to open up a Boom Tube, Darkseid eventually entered Earth's dimension and came to face New 52 Justice League and almost capturing Superman. With the help of Batman, he escaped Desaad and faced Darkseid, who overpowered the Justice League. However, with the combined forces of the team, they pushed the Dark God into a Boom Tube created by Cyborg, ending the threat, at least for now (ironically, the appearance of Mother Boxes is actually what brought Justice League members together for the first time.

For more info, click here.

Darkseid eventually came into a conflict with Mobius and his forces on Earth, who wanted to kill Darkseid and obtain his power, in order to finally rid himself of the burden of being the Anti-Monitor. This was all the plan of Grail, Darkseid's half Amazonian daughter, who manipulated him and Mobius in order for her to obtain the power of the Anti Life for herself. Mobius finally killed Darkseid and removed the Anti Life Equation from himself, which came into the possession of Grail and caused serious of events that turned almost all members of the Justice League into Gods, and even after losing the power of the Omega Effect, Lex Luthor still had control over Apokolips after freeing it from Darkseid's tyranny. Mobius was defeated with the combined efforts of Green Lantern Corp and Lex Luthor with Darkseid's power, but Grail brought her father back to life and used him to attack the Justice League, thanks to the power of Anti Life. After her mother sacrificed herself to prove Grail that she does not have to be evil, Grail tried to find a way to feel love for his father, who she kept safe when he took the form of a baby. Several months later, Grail realized that her father required energy of the Old Gods which originally turned him into Darkseid, and she kept killing several of Zeus' children on Earth and stored their energy into a Mother Box, and then allowing her father to consume that energy to become older and more powerful. After killing several of of Zeus' children and obtaining the form of a young adult, Darkseid teamed up with Wonder Woman's brother to take her own power, and while he would later betray Darkseid, Uxas was confronted by Zeus himself. They fought to a standstill until Uxas absorbed his life force, fully becoming Darkseid and trying to find a way to go back to Apokolips while hiding on Earth. He encountered Wonder Woman in battle for the second time, but his plans were dwarfed yet again, and he lost the powers of the Gods he absorbed, losing his own power and apparently, not remembering who he is, with his daughter Grail ending up being imprisoned with Ares, still believing her father will come and rescue her. What happens to Darkseid now or what will happen to him has yet to be revealed.

For more information of the events from above, read Darkseid War & Wonder Woman's Rebirth run.

Powers, Abilities & Equipment

Just like his Pre-Flashpoint counterpart, New 52/Rebirth Darkseid has powers of the Omega Effect. However, like I said before, Omega Effect wasn't as established and explained in detail as it was Pre-Flashpoint, and it isn't 100% unknown if he gained access to it after absorbing the power of the Old Gods or if he gained it in similar way his Pre-Flashpoint counterpart did (Lex Luthor obtained the power of the Omega Effect in similar fashion as Kirby's Darkseid), or if Omega Effect has anything to do with the Old Gods in the first place. Regardless, he does have some powers his Pre-Flashpoint counterpart does not have, but while he is apparently physically superior, he lacks versatility and hax his Pre-Flashpoint counterpart had with his Omega Effect. Regardless, powers and abilities Uxas obtained after becoming the New God are the following:

  • Superhuman Strength
  • Superhuman Reflexes
  • Superhuman Durability
  • Unlimited Stamina
  • Healing Factor/Regeneration
  • Immortality & Self-Sustenance
  • Omega Effect
  • Omega Beam Projection
  • Energy Projection
  • Flight/Levitation
  • Size Alteration
  • Cosmic Awareness
  • Dimension Travel/Teleportation
  • Boom Tube Projection
  • Death Manipulation
  • Apokolips Empowerment
  • Godly Empowerment
  • Life Force/Energy Absorption

  • Genius Level Intellect
  • H2H Combat Skill
  • Armed Combat Skill
  • Leadership & Tactician
  • Intimidation & Manipulation

  • Apokoliptian Armor
  • Boom Tube
  • Mother Box
  • Scythe (formerly)
  • Shield (formerly)

Apparently Darkseid was so powerful, he was able to fight planets (Wonder Woman Vol. 5 #37):

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It has been stated by Mister Miracle that Darkseid failed to conquer a world only once, that being Prime Earth Universe's planet Earth during his encounter with the Justice League, which does show how powerful and capable Darkseid is both as a ruler, warrior and a God (Justice League Vol. 2 #41):

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He also said he can't beat Darkseid even with help of Fury and Boom Spheres (Earth 2 World's End #11):

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It took the entire Justice League to fight against him (Wonder Woman Vol. 5 #36):

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Diana called Darkseid the most powerful and evil entity in existence, along with the Anti Monitor, and in the same issue, when Uxas and Mobius fought, they didn't even notice the presence of the Justice League even tho they were only several feet away from them, which showcases their power (Justice League Vol. 2 #44):

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His reputation proceeds him as well (Wonder Woman Vol. 5 #31):

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Hell, it has even been stated that Darkseid is capable of destroying the entire Universe, and that he has actually done so in the past. This may be hyperbolic but it still showcases his power (Constantine #22):

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John Constantine couldn't even stop him without gaining power from outside source (Constantine #23):

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And he still couldn't come close to stopping Darkseid and could barely fight him and still failed. Just the mere experience of the confrontation caused him extreme amounts of pain and agony, crushing every cell in his body and ridding him of every moment of happiness, comfort, love, pleasure and hope. He ended up getting knocked out, and after the fight he was completely drained. He only survived because Darkseid spared him.

For full confrontation between the two, click here.

37 Comments

Top 15 Most Powerful Naruto Characters

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This is pretty self explanatory. Top 15 most powerful Naruto characters, including Boruto era. I count strongest versions of the characters. Keep in mind that while some characters are above the other in terms of overall power, it doesn't mean characters who are below others on this list or characters who are not on this list at all, can't beat characters who are or who are above them (although you won't see this too much given how the hierarchy is pretty consistent when it comes to God Tier). If you have some disagreements, feel free to point them out. I'm curious to hear other people's opinions. Keep in mind that I'm a casual Naruto fan, alright? Cool.

Honorable Mentions:

Indra & Ashura Otsutsuki

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Indra and Ashura are obviously incredibly powerful, being sons of Sage of Six Paths Hagaromo himself and grandchildren to Kaguya Otsutsuki. Hell, one of the reasons why Naruto, Sasuke, Hashirama and Madara were so powerful was because they had chakra of these two. Indra was stated to have received Hagaromo's eyes, mental energy and Yin Release. Ashura was stated to have received Hagaromo's body and physical energy and Yang Release. While they are basically featless, it has been shown on one panel from the Manga and a scene from the Anime that Ashura had Fox Like Avatar similar to Naruto's KCM2 mode, and that Indra has the perfect Susanoo. This by itself should make them incredibly powerful, especially because it seems like Ashura has the Truth Seeking Orbs, and therefor, Six Paths Sage Mode. While it has never been confirmed that Indra had Rinnegan, his eyes (or Sharingan if you will) were similar to Rinnegan in appearance, and based on statements, were incredibly powerful, which is proven by the fact that he can use the Perfect Susanoo without transplanting other Sharingan eyes. He fought Ashura multiple times based on statements and given the picture we have seen, he should be around God Tier level. However, in filler, he was pretty much stomped by Ashura so it is possible that he became stronger later or that Ashura was holding back in other fights, but that wouldn't make sense because he already stomped him the first time. However, in Anime filler he was confirmed to have Six Paths Sage Mode and he has Hashirama level Wood Release. Maybe their other fights were contextual, I don't know. Because of lack of information and inconsistencies with filler (especially with Indra having completely different eyes in filler, identical to Sasuke's Mangekyo instead of like combination of Sharingan and Rinnegan), it is impossible to say how powerful they are. Are they above Naruto, Sasuke, Hashirama and Madara? Are they below all of them? Are they in between previous incarnations but below the more recent ones? To what versions do they compare to? We are just not given enough info on them to say how powerful they are exactly. But they deserve an honorable mention due to hype itself.

Number 15 - Kinshiki Otsutsuki

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Kinshiki is pretty powerful, mostly relying on his physical capabilities. He is capable of creating hard light constructs and conjure them as weapons, allowing him to create either powerful projectiles, piercing weapons or his ax, which was able to cut the entire God Tree from otherworld with the mere shockwave of his blow. Apparently he also fought Biju Bee and dealt with him pretty easily, using his piercing constructs to completely immobilize him in his Biju form and pierce all of it's limbs and tails. Just absorbing his chakra was enough to put Momoshiki at God Tier level. He was also able to stalemate Adult Sasuke in hand to hand combat when the former relied on both his speed and to his versatility to a degree, as well as his Sharingan. He was moving at incredibly high speeds against Sasuke and showcased incredible strength, even giving Sasuke trouble on few occasions and even forcing him to use his Rinnegan powers to dodge his attack. He can also absorb chakra to create constructs out of it, teleport and sense chakra. However, despite all of his impressive showings, his fight with Bee lacks some context and it is unknown whether Bee was caught off guard or of Momoshiki helped Kinshiki. While fighting Sasuke is impressive, Kinshiki was ultimately overwhelmed by Kage level opponents who did not try that hard against him, giving him the lowest spot on this list.

Number 14 - Nagato (Full Power)

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Nagato is probably the most versatile user of the Rinnegan. Not the most effective or most powerful, but definitely the most versatile, as he is the only user of Rinnegan so far who uses all of it's abilities, including all Paths of Pain abilities. Even while being completely incapacitated, he was able to emit chakra through chakra receivers he creates with his Rinnegan in order to give several corpses almost full arsenal of each of Paths powers Rinnegan gives someone, plus shared vision. Nagato showcased ridiculous multi tasking skills with them, capable of controlling all 6 of them at the same time perfectly. When being close enough to him and draining the power of other Paths of Pain, Deva was able to use Shinra Tensei to turn the entire Hidden Leaf into ground zero nuke field. And almost powerless Nagato was able to use the same technique to remove Amatarasu from him, the most powerful Fire jutsu in the verse. However, Nagato only showcased his actual abilities and proficiency with Rinnegan when he was Reanimated, and even then, he wasn't at his peak. He was able to fight KCM1 Naruto, Killer Bee and Itachi and he pretty much ragdolled both Naruto and Bee with absolute ease and would easily kill them if it weren't for Itachi, using his Rinnegan powers in extremely impressive multi tasking, tactical and versatile way, plus combining them to make them more effective. His Uzumaki Chakra also gives him pretty effective control over Rinnegan, allowing him to summon and control the Gedo Mazo and drain souls from his opponent with Phantom Dragon technique. And that's not even mentioning other broken things Nagato can do with Rinnegan, like read people's thoughts and drain their souls, summon King of Hell, having broken summoning options, being capable of absorbing all ninjutsu and even chakra directly from other beings to empower himself, like when he regained his strength by absorbing Bee's Biju chakra after taking Lariat from him. Or controling attractive and repulsive forces, projecting rods capable of piercing through anything and screwing their their chakra network with contact, or creating black orbs with their gravitational pull that can seal 6-Tailed Naruto in it, pull everything towards it and create Multi Hill-Mountain level planetoids with their own magnetic field.

Number 13 - Biju Minato (Edo Tensei)

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Minato was pretty capable ninja even before he died. He was capable of preforming one of the most powerful sealing techniques ever, and created a S class ninjutsu while studying biju bombs, called the Rasengan. He also mastered Tobirama's Flying Thunder God technique, which not only gave him the title of the fastest Shinobi alive (evident by the fact that he outspeeded Fourth Raikage Ay), but allowed him to pretty much win the war. He can appear anywhere at any time and is perfect in combat. Minato was actually one of those people who was capable of countering Kamui pretty quickly, something KCM Naruto, Guy, Biju Bee and Kakashi struggled to do even after they figured out how it works and that Kakashi has perfect counter to it. Minato is also proficient with shadow clones, all of which can use the rasengan and Flying Thunder God, all of which are incredibly effective in combat and useful for blitzing tactics, dodges, overwhelming the opponent and pretty much manipulating the battle field by throwing marked kunai's all over it. On top of that, he was able to teleport projected and moving Biju Bomb from Kurama without even touching it, and sending fully powered Biju Bomb from Juubi to another country pretty casually, while being weakened. Minato also had access to Sage Mode, and while he did say he is not great at using it, he is perfect sage who is capable of gathering up natural energy faster than even Naruto without KCM2. While he does not have many feats with it, Sage Mode made regular Naruto, who isn't that fast himself, much faster than Raikage and his KCM mode, so Minato who is capable of preforming that feat at base, should be ridiculously fast with it. But where Minato truly shines is when his Reanimated version is considered. Not only does he have pain immunity, infinite chakra, immortality and regeneration like all Edo Tensei, but he has Kurama's other half sealed inside of him. Basically all of Naruto's feats with KCM can be scaled off of Minato, and one could say he is even stronger since base Minato is mostly superior to base Naruto (not to mention KCM Naruto already humiliated Raikage speed wise, something Minato could do with Flying Thunder God alone, so giving KCM to him is pretty crazy). This means he has the strongest Tailed Beast that can ragdoll other Biju in physical fight, and that his one Biju Bomb can stalemate 5 other Biju bombs from other Biju, all of which are mountain level individually. And this is without taking into account the fact that Kurama can overcharge his Biju bomb and make it way more powerful, and he can do this while being completely drained. Minato with his Kurama Avatar can create massive Rasengan, which in combination with Naruto's Natural energy was able to crack Juubi Obito's Truth Seeking Orb shield.

Number 12 - Toneri Otsutsuki

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Toneri is a member of the Otsutsuki clan who awakened the Tenseigan, which gave him incredible powers. Even before fully awakening it, he was able to do things like one-shot base Naruto, move throughout the village undetected, communicate with people, teleport and see several events on Earth without his eyes. He can also project himself through his puppets, control project chakra orbs, hypnotize people and even control Moon's gravitational pull and move it towards Earth. With the Tenseigan, he obtained a special Chakra Clock which increases his physical and chakra abilities. He was able to fight on par with base and later KCM2 Naruto with Sage Mode and move around the Moon at high speeds, while at the same time controlling a Golem powerful enough to stalemate Kurama Avatar. He still had the original abilities of his Byakugan and Tenseigan allowed him to control gravitational forces similar to Rinnegan Deva Path, and also gave him access to Truth Seeking Orbs he can use in combat, even splitting them into multiple smaller orbs and use them as projectiles. He is also capable of projecting incredibly powerful energy attacks and access to Golden Wheel Reincarnation Explosion technique, which is huge energy chakra construct in form of straight lined blade connected to Toneri's wrist which was powerful enough to allow him to cut the Moon in half. Why is Toneri so low on the list? Well, his Truth Seeking Orbs aren't as powerful as the ones provided by Six Paths Sage Mode given the fact that Naruto without Six Paths powers was able to break them with just his fists, and they didn't show the same properties as the ones provided by Six Paths Senjutsu. And while he has two Moon level feats, that Moon was completely hollow, making the feat way less impressive than it seems. And while he did prove to be on the same level as KCM Naruto, his energy attacks couldn't affect him at all and he ended up getting beaten by Naruto using regular Sage Mode and Sage Mode only. On top of it, he lost the Tenseigan right after losing.

Number 11 - Might Guy (8 Inner Gates)

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Guy is arguably physically strongest character in Naruto (or top 3-5). After the training he went through, and having no skill with ninjutsu and genjutsu and focusing on his physical abilities alone, Guy gained access to Eight Inner Gates. Eight Inner Gates are something everyone in Naruto has, but only people who went through ridiculous levels of physical training can gain access to them. Once the user gains access to those gates, he can open them either one by one all multiple of them at the same time (the amount of gates one has access to also depends on training and you can't have access to all of them at the same time), and once he does that, his strength, speed, raw durability, reflexes, perception and striking force increase exponentially, as well as give him access to physical attacks he wouldn't normally be able to use at his base level of physical prowess (the amount of strength someone gains depends on the number of Gates he opens). Lee, someone way weaker than Guy, was able to punch through Edo Madara and almost beat Part 1 Gaara. Guy was also stated to be faster than Kakashi at base, and his Hirudora attack which uses the Seventh Gate was able to blow Madara's humanoid Susanoo away and one shot it, the same thing that tanked Ten Tails Cataclysm attack from point blank with zero damage. And that was just with the Seventh Gate. Eight Gate was on a completely different tier. Just the air pressure caused by Guy's blows were able to cause extreme amounts of pain and damage to Rinnegan Madara with Wood Release, Hashirama's Sage Mode and Tailed Beast Chakra, even cause damage to him with his absolute weakest attacks without even hitting him. Just the air pushed by his blows was enough to do so. Guy was also fast enough to blitz Madara, who could barely keep up with him. He was also able to punch Madara with so much force, that he was pushed forward at high speed, hit Truth Seeking Orb shield, which tanked Multi Mountain+++ level attacks, break through it, and still continue flying several feet away due to just one punch. And that's not even close to Guy's strongest attack. Night Guy attack was able to blow half of Juubi Madara's body off completely and almost kill him. It is also a blitz Guy relies on when he gains massive momentum, allowing him to come close to the speed of light when he comes close to his target. The reason why he's not higher on the list is because his own attacks damage him, and he will eventually die just by fighting you. Although given what he did to Juubi Madara, there are not a lot of people who would survive the encounter.

Number 10 - Hashirama Senju

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Hashirama Senju was the previous reincarnation of Ashura, and was proficient with Yang Release and all 5 basic nature transformations. As a Senju, Hashirama possessed incredible physical strength and capabilities, even possessing healing abilities capable of healing any injury or wound without any signs, which is apparently comparable to Tsunade's 100 Seal Healing Jutsu. Hashirama possessed so much chakra, that even after Naruto and Minato combined Yin and Yang versions of Kurama, the most powerful Tailed Beast ever, and spread it's chakra throughout the Shino Alliance, Hashirama's clone weakened by Edo Tensei said that he still had more chakra than they do. Hashirama was always superior to Madara Uchiha until the latter awakened the Rinnegan, always ending their fight in a stalemate even tho Madara went for the kill and Hashirama held back. He was also the only character who naturally possessed Kekkei Genkai known as Wood Release, which is a combination of Water Release and Earth release. This allowed him to create Wood Clones which are more durable than shadow clones, create and/or control wooden objects, create trees and forests in an instant to manipulate the battle field the way he sees fit, spread trees across the battle field to trap or kill it's targets, unleash poisonous pollen which could pierce through Susanoo in Anime filler, create Explosive Wooden Dragon controls capable of making KCM2 Kurama Avatar Naruto look helples and drain his chakra so much, to the point of making the Avatar disappear almost completely and by doing so, extend itself and create more wooden constructs capable of holding 8 Tails as well, the second strongest Tailed Beast. He can also project multiple of those wooden dragons and even hold Rinnegan Madara in place, preventing him from moving, using any jutsu and even nullifying Deva Path Rinnegan ability to absorb ninjutsu. Hashirama can also create hill sized wooden hands throughout the entire battle field, which are capable of casually stopping Multi Mountain+++ busting Perfect Susanoo sword swings used by the strongest Tailed Beast, create constructs capable of no selling point blank Biju Dama, and even create Golems equal to Perfect Susanoo in power and are capable of projecting several Wooden Dragons and reflecting Biju Dama from Kurama with it's bare hands. Hashirama's Wood Release is also capable of controlling and suppressing Tail Beast Chakra, which is so effective, even a necklace that contains some of which chakra can seal Biju chakra. Hashirama was so powerful, he literally tamed the Tailed Beasts and sold them to other villages. Hashirama is also capable of summoning 5 Rashomon walls at the same time which are capable of changing trajectory of Fully Powered Kurama's Biju Bomb amped by Susanoo sword. Hashirama also has Sage Mode, which allows him to summon gates capable of easily holding Juubi's 10 tails at the same time and even hold Madara in place with ease. Sage Mode also gives Hashirama access to his strongest technique, which allows him to create Buddha like wooden construct that dwarfs full Kurama in size in it's humanoid form only, and on top of that, has 1000 giant wooden hands on it's back capable of tanking tens of Biju Bombs enhanced by Susanoo sword and completely destroy Perfect Susanoo and get the best of Kurama (it also creates Wooden Golem with Wooden Dragon on top of it, which is like a hat to it). This technique allowed Hashirama to beat Madara (mostly), and was even capable of killing him at the end.

Number 9 - Kakashi Hatake (DMS)

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Kakashi was a pretty proficient Shinobi. He became Jonin when he was a teen, he could use the first gate, had incredible reputation, created his own lighting style jutsu similar to Rasengan and then increased it's effectiveness even further, and was able to copy thousands of jutsu with his Sharingan, giving him access to all 5 nature transformations. He defeated Zabuza, fought Pain, stalemated War Arc Obito and mortally wounded him (although that was Obito's plan but still), can cast genjutsu with his Sharingan, was capable of blocking lightning even while being extremely weakened, and it easily one of the best tacticians in the whole series. He created several variants of Chidori and Lightning Blade, like creating a lightning beast capable of attacking it's target directly, or lightning cabal which was capable of cutting through hand tailed chakra constructs created by several reanimated Jinchuuriki in their second chakra cloak state, pretty casually at that, and those things are very durable. Kakashi was pretty fast as well and considering the fact that he is a non Uchiha, he has pretty high chakra reserves and is capable of using Sharingan pretty effectively, even mastering it. At least during the War Arc. Kakashi's left eye given to him by Obito gave him access to Space Time ninjutsu known as Kamui, after obtaining and training his Mangekyo Sharingan. This eye allows him to create holes in space (the point Kakashi is looking at), which suck everything nearby into the Kamui dimension. This is incredibly effective jutsu that is also impossible to counter because it can just suck parts of people's body into it. As seen when Kakashi sucked middle part of Deidara's arm into the Kamui dimension. The portal closed and that part of an arm that connects all of it together was teleported, severing the arm. Kakashi can use this on people's heads too, although he failed both times due to context of an instance, but he is still capable of doing it. He can also transport entire bodies into the Kamui dimension and let them out, like with Eight Tails. While he can't teleport himself into Kamui Dimension, he can still get out of it if he's inside. However, Kakashi truly shined when he obtained both Sharingan eyes enhanced by Six Paths Chakra. This gave him access to Perfect Susanoo, all of Obito's Mangekyo abilities, like being completely intangible for 5 minutes strait, increased his reaction time speed which allowed him to react to and tag Kaguya, and project Kamui shurikens, which were capable of tagging Kaguya's Juubi Tails, create several portals and severe them just like with Deidara's arm. Aside from having abilities of Obito's right eye which are broken, he is also capable of combining Kamui with Lighting Blade and teleport everything he touches with that lightning attack into the Kamui dimension. This attack was able to not only tag, but cause massive damage to Kaguya and even make her bleed.

Number 8 - Obito Uchiha (Juubi)

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Even before becoming the Juubi Jinchuuriki, Obito was able to project powerful Fire Release Jutsu, use Wood Release that can hold Naruto in place for few seconds, keep up with Naruto in a fight, stalemate Kakashi in hand to hand combat, best Guy in H2H due to Sharingan, project Rinnegan Chakra Rods and control 6 Biju and Gedo Mazo with Rinnegan. He also possessed enhanced strength, speed, durability, endurance, pain tolerance and healing factor, as well as Sharingan powerful enough to control the likes of 3-Tails Jinchuuriki and full Kurama. While he did lose Kamui ability once he became the Jinchuuriki, he gained access to Six Paths Senjutsu, which gave him enhanced senses, increased all f his existing abilities and chakra control plus providing him with Truth Seeking Orbs. Because of it, he gained access to all 5 nature transformations and Yin and Yang (and Yin-Yang) Release. This allowed him to create powerful shields capable of tanking attacks from duo Kurama Avatar Sage Art Rasengan and 4 point blank Biju Bombs from Juubi, that he himself created by planting a Ten Tails-like tree. He can also use them offensively, either by shaping them into swords or weapons that can pierce objects or use them as transmutation attacks. He can also project the orbs themselves and extend their energies, allowing them to transmutate the target. He can also use them to heal himself from injury, which rarely happens because even without the orbs, he can nullify any ninjutsu unless it is enhanced by nature energy, and even tho can be blocked with the orbs. Despite the fact that Sage Mode is something that can hurt him, Obito still pretty much ragdolled KCM2 Avatar Naruto (who had both Sage Mode and Chakra from it's other half) and Humanoid Legged Susanoo Sasuke with Jugo's Sage Cursed Seal Jutsu amp, pretty easily at that. And way weaker version was able to blitz Hashirama Senju's Wood Clone and Second Hokage Tobirama, with the former even saying how Obito is stronger than he is. He is also capable of casually destroying Gates of the Great God Sage Jutsu from Hashirama as well as 4 Crimson Yang Formation barrier created by the four Hokage, and even creating one himself (6 Crimson Yang Formation), which was also capable of tanking 4 point blank Juubi Biju Bombs. Juubito was also capable of unleashing the God Tree and manipulating it to his will, either to spread it across the land to absorb chakra (which is something it can do at incredibly high speeds, to the point that not even Naruto could react) or plant it to eventually activate the Infinite Tsukuyomi. It can also change shape and fight others, in the form of Wooden Dragons. Obito was also fast enough to casually blitz KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke when they were expecting his attack, and easily reacted to KCM Minato.

Number 7 - Momoshiki Otsutsuki

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Momoshiki was a member of the Otsutsuki clan who absorbed chakra in order to create pills which make him stronger and keep him young every time he consumes them. A unique ability Momoshiki has is crimson Rinnegan he has on his palms. It never showcased basic abilities of the Rinnegan, but it allows him to absorb any form of nature transformations and ninjutsu, like all 5 nature transformation attacks at the same time with ease, and even absorb Shikamaru's Shadow Restriction jutsu, which is a form of Yin release. He is also capable of absorbing Tailed Beast Bomb at point blank range. All of this can be done with Rinnegan on his right palm. His left Rinnegan is capable of replicating that style or technique and allow Momoshiki to use it/them himself, but he can also increase their potency and put them on a completely different level. Like when fired amplified version of Bee's Biju Bomb to absorb and one-shot him (even tho he tanked Biju blast from first form Juubi), use 5 nature transformations all at once and create effects so powerful, they gave Kurama Avatar Naruto and Perfect Susanoo Sasuke a lot of trouble, and even damaged both of their shields, or hold Naruto and Sasuke plus 5 Kage with amplified version of Shadow Possession he absorbed from Shikamaru. Momoshiki is also capable of creating an Overcharged Biju Bomb powerful enough to destroy the entire land and actually beat Adult Naruto with full Kurama Avatar (although it was stated Naruto could deflect it), absorb Biju Chakra from Bee's clone and turn it into pills, spend a lot of time draining Kurama's chakra from Naruto, hold his own against Sasuke and Kage opponents in hand to hand combat (although he was at disadvantage), kick Naruto and send him fly several feet away before he can react, and absorb Kinshiki and turn him into fruit, which he ate to become more powerful. After this amp, just the mere shockwave of his attack destroyed otherworld God Tree. He was able to easily blitz and beat Kage level opponents, create big explosions, tank attacks from Naruto and Sasuke, fight both of them at the same time and block their blows and even overpower them, create several constructs and beings composed of 5 basic natures which he used to fight Naruto and Sasuke, almost kill Sasuke, use fire release capable of piercing through Susanoo and escape the Chibaku Tensei. Why is he lower on the list? Basically he fought drained Naruto and Sasuke wasn't at his peak either. He was also killed by a Rasengun created by regular weakened Naruto pierced by chakra rods and that Rasengun was fired by Boruto so, I don't see him beating fully powered versions of Shinobi Jesus Duo, even one on one.

Number 6 - Sasuke Uchiha (Adult)

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Sasuke is incarnation of Indra, possessing extremely powerful, cold and dark chakra, and the peak of Uchiha's visual prowess. He obtained the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan, giving him access to Susanoo and complete control over Black Flames of Amaterasu. Sasuke is incredibly proficient with genjutsu, and possesses top tier speed and extremely impressive physical capabilities. He has multiple variations of Chidori technique, and can use Blaze Release in extremely versatile and effective ways, like shields, projectiles, blasts and even combine it with Chidori and Susanoo techniques. Sasuke also uses a Snake Sword which he can combine with his lightning style to increase it's cutting power. When he received Six Paths Chakra, Yin Release and Rinnegan from Hagoromo, his physical prowess, chakra and raw power increased exponentially. This allowed him to fight on par with Naruto who obtained Six Paths Senjutsu, get the best of Juubi Madara and outpseed him multiple times, see his Limbo clones and react to all of his attacks and blitz him and fight Kaguya and Momoshiki along with Naruto and stalemate Kinshiki in hand to hand combat. Six Paths chakra not only increased the powers of his Chidori and visual prowess (like Blaze Release which became way more effective, his Susanoo which gained it's perfect form and allowed him to cut planetoids and stalemate Six Paths Kurama Avatar) but also gave him an ability unique to his own Rinnegan. A Space-Time jutsu known as Amenotejikara, which allows him to switch places with any person or object or between other people as well, which gives him the edge against everybody. This technique was able to overwhelm Momoshiki and Juubi Madara. Sasuke was so powerful, he was able to put all Biju in genjutsu just with a glance at the same time, clap his hands and trap them all in Chibaku Tensei without even creating the black pulls, control the planetoids and make them come to him, absorb their chakra from the planetoids into himself and his Susanoo to make himself equal to Hagoromo in power, repair his Susanoo and give him clear edge in a fight against Naruto until the latter absorbed huge amount of Natural Energy, all after fighting Kaguya. As an adult, he could create portals that lead to completely different and unknown dimensions, and can temporary trap Momoshiki in Chibaku Tensei with one arm. Sasuke can also combine his Susanoo wit Naruto's Kurama Avatar, which is powerful enough to destroy Momoshiki's Golem.

Number 5 - Naruto Uzumaki (Adult)

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Naruto is the reincarnation of Ashura, giving him incredibly powerful chakra. He is the most proficient user of the Shadow Clone technique of all time and is also the Jinchuuriki of Kurama/9-Tails, the most powerful Tailed Beast of all time, who even with half of it's power was able to overpower 5 Biju with ease. Naruto also has Sage Mode, which allowed him to beat the likes of Pain (with context tho) and Third Raikage, and even get the best of Kurama himself. He also possesses a S class jutsu called Rasenshuriken, which destroys people on cellular level and could kill Kakuzu who survived Biju Dama and fought the first Hokage. Naruto possesses enhanced healing abilities and even in his weakest Kurama Chakra form, he dwarfed the Fourth Raikage in speed. Naruto can access Kurama Avatar mode where he pretty much becomes Kurama in chakra like state, and is capable of stacking Sage Mode on top of it, which allowed him to fight and hold his own against Juubi Obito with Sasuke's help. Naruto can also give other people his chakra and connect with them, create several forms of Rasengan and create chakra arms all around his body. When he was enhanced with Six Paths powers, Naruto became powerful enough to literally ragdoll Pre-God Tree Juubi Madara without even entering KCM mode or using the Truth Seeking Orbs (which he also gained, along with flight, Yin-Yang Release, enhanced powers to God Tier level and senses powerful enough to allow him to sense Limbo Shadows), while at the same time easily cutting the entire Shinju without even hitting in directly. Naruto also gained powers from eight other Tailed Beasts, which technically makes him pseudo-Juubi Jinchuuriki. He is capable of using their powers in the same way as their original Jinchuuriki did, or even combining them with his own technique. Like when he combined Son's Lava Release with his Rasenshuriken to one-shot Juubi Madara or when he combined Shukaku's Magnet Release with his Sage Art Rasengan to spread his Cursed Seal around the target and hold it in place, which is powerful enough to hold Madara and his Limbo Shadow. Naruto proved to be on a completely different level than Rinnegan Sasuke, who he defeated while holding back and Sasuke was going for the kill. He was also able to fight Kaguya, and he saved Sasuke from Momoshiki even tho he was weakened. After shippuden, he gained arm made of Hashirama Senju's cells, which should increase his physical capabilities and healing factor even further. Naruto can heal from deadly wounds in seconds and was able to beat Toneri using nothing but Sage Mode and was able to break his Truth Seeking Orbs without Six Paths powers. He was also fast enough to dodge light speed attack, and gather enough Nature Energy to create Yin-Yang Release Rasenshurikens so powerful, that they stalemated with Sasuske's strongest attack which he used with Indra's Susanoo, the most powerful version of Susanoo amped by all the Biju, which made Sasuke equal to Hagoromo in power. Naruto can also use Yin-Yang release to create new eye for Kakashi, prevent Guy from dying after opening the Eight Gate, and heal Obito who had Biju extracted from him and used Rinne Tensei no Jutsu.

Number 4 - Hamura Otsutsuki

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I know a lot of people will probably scratch their heads around this and ask why the hell is Hamura on this list. And you may find my reasoning for this to be extremely flawed but, using so called "In-Universe" logic, I think he should be above Naruto and Sasuke. The guy possessed Yin Release in his palm which allowed him to seal Kaguya/Ten-Tails away, and he fought against her alongside his brother Hagoromo (in Anime filler it was stated that the fight lasted for months if I remember correctly, although it is a filler so you might want to take that with grain of salt but it's still impressive feat). He can also teleport to a Moon and survive there with zero difficulty, can sense and see things on Earth while being on the Moon, can project himself and talk to other people even after being dead like his brother, and can give others his chakra. Like he did to Hinata in order for her to destroy the Tenseigan, which apparently Naruto couldn't do by himself. Hamura also has Byakugan and apparently he awakened the Tenseigan himself, which is even more impressive when you consider the fact that he has Six Paths Sage Mode and Truth Seeking Orbs. Why is he above Naruto who defeated a guy with Tenseigan and he himself has Six Paths Sage Mode which he didn't use against Toneri? Well, like I said, him being a son of Kaguya and all that makes me believe that he should be more powerful. Although I wouldn't blame you if you put Naruto and Sasuke or other characters from this list for that matter, above him.

Number 3 - Hagoromo Otsutsuki

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Hagoromo being here is not a surprise, and I don't think you will find it questionable that he is above Naruto and Sasuke. After all, Sasuke's Rinnegan and Naruto's Six Paths Senjutsu literally came from Hagoromo himself, and way weaker version of him at that. Possessing those two things is pretty impressive by itself, but I think there is one important detail that a lot if people miss when they mention Hagoromo. He actually had Six Paths Senjutsu before he became the Jinchuuriki of the Ten Tails. So he was God Tier even before obtaining one thing that puts people on that level. Hagaromo sealed Kaguya with the help of his brother Hamura to create the Moon, but apparently now he obtained that jutsu himself, since he had Yin and Yang power on his palms, instead of just Yang when he fought his mother (in Anime filler he also gave Ashura Six Paths powers, had Sharingan before Rinnegan, trained in using regular Sage Mode and he also had Susanoo which dwarfed even Madara's in size and was apparently comparable to Juubi in raw power). Even without Tailed Beast amp and while being dead and spending chakra to visit our world, Hagoromo was still able to give Naruto and Sasuke powers that amped them from being inferior to regular Madara to superior to Juubi Madara. He can also release Edo Tensei he himself didn't cast, summon souls of all Kage and with their help, teleport Team 7, all the Biju and Madara, back to Earth from Kaguya's dimension. Oh and he also has Creation of all Things technique which separated God Tree into 9 Biju he created, which is so effective, they still existed even after becoming Juubi again.

Number 2 - Madara Uchiha (Six Paths)

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Some of you may find it weird that I put Madara above Hagoromo. While Madara's EMS pretty much made him Kurama level without anything else, and he later obtained Rinnegan, Wood Release and Hashirama's Sage and Healing Powers, and later after absorbing the Juubi, he obtained Six Paths Senjutsu and Truth Seeking Orbs. However, Hagoromo also had Rinnegan and Yin-Yang Release and Six Paths powers before he evenbecame Juubi Jinchuuriki. And obviously he became even more powerful after absorbing the Juubi and becoming it's Jinchuuriki. Madara only gained Six Paths powers after absorbing Juubi, while Hagoromo had Juubi and Six Paths powers at base. His base level of power should be above Madara's, so logically he should be above Juubi Madara as well. Apparently even without Juubi and while being dead and using his chakra to remain in this world temporary, he still had enough power to put both Naruto and Sasuke on the same level as Six Paths Madara. Well, the reason why I put him above Hagoromo is because, Madara had two factors on his side that Hagoromo didn't. Those being both Rinne Sharingan and the God Tree. Former allows him to manipulate the God Tree and cast Infinite Tsukuyomi, and the latter gives him almost unlimited healing abilities, and according to Madara, gives him complete immortality. It also obviously increases his powers even further. Hagoromo did not have the God Tree absorbed and didn't possess Rinne Sharingan. However, again, he possessed Six Paths Powers without Juubi and obviously possessed incredibly powerful chakra even for people on his tier. Hagoromo possess Six Paths Chibaku Tensei sealing jutsu alone and apparently, can preform it without outside assistance. It is also possible that his Rinnegan has the same powers as those of Sasuke because, Sasuke's Rinnegan came from Hagoromo. So it is a question, what is a greater factor? Rinne Sharingan and God Tree, or Hagoromo possessing Six Paths powers even before Juubi, Yin and Yang release sealing, and the ability to given Naruto and Sasuke jesus powers while being dead and not having Juubi. Ehh, it's a bit hard to say which one is better. Hagoromo would probably win in a fight due to being way more knowledgeable and experienced and possessing NLF sealing technique, however, I would say Madara is more powerful because I do believe that Rinne Sharingan and God Tree are a greater factor. Not only because Madara is immortal, something Hagoromo wasn't, but because we have never actually seen him at his peak. You might say it's a stretch, but we are not provided with enough info here. I understand if someone says Hagoromo is above Six Paths Madara.

Number 1 - Kaguya Otsutsuki

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There's no argument here. Everybody knows Kaguya is the most powerful character in Naruto. She is the first person to obtain chakra and was referred to as the origin of chakra. She became the Ten Tails itself and possesses the power of the God Tree. She is practically immortal and can heal from anything, as well as absorb all the chakra. It took Naruto and Sasuke, amped with Hagoromo's power, with back up from Sakura and Kakashi, as well as Obito who later amped Kakashi himself, to beat her. And they couldn't even beat her due to their combined power. It happened literally due to their teamwork, tactical skills and plot device technique given to them by Hagoromo. She can't be defeated. Only sealed away. Not even Hagoromo couldn't beat her by himself and needed help from his brother Hamura. Her feats consistent of outspeeding both Naruto and Sasuke and pretty much humiliating them, overpowering Naruto, casually stopping Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo and one-shot it twice, blitz Naruto and Sasuke, absorb clones and ninjutsu, turn into Ten Tails, regrow arm, ignore her injuries, use Byakugan to see chakra points and one-shot Sasuke's summons, one-shot Naruto's clones with both taijutsu and all killing Ash Bones, kill Obito, warp dimensions, manipulate dimensions, create inter and extra dimensional portals to teleport herself and others, easily hold Naruto and Sasuke in place whole draining them, possessing powers of the Sharigan and Rinne Sharingan, activating Infinite Tsukuyomi and creating like country sized (ok, maybe not that much) Truth Seeking Orb. It has been stated that her chakra is on a completely different level than Rinne Sharingan Madara's, and just absorbing chakra necessary to bring her back was enough to overwhelm Madara, which was stated to be greater than Juubi's. And she can just continue to absorb more chakra from the God Tree to increase her power even further.

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There you go. That's my list. Hope you enjoyed it and feel free to share your thoughts on it.

9 Comments

KrleAvenger's Files - Update 2.0

The title may sound misleading or silly, but this is another update.

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KrleAvenger's List of Debates

Ongoing/Voting

Victories

Losses

Ties

Cancelled/Postponed

KrleAvenger's Respect Threads

Possible future debates

I planned on doing CaV matches with a lot of people in the future. Most of those probably won't happen any time soon, but we were already in agreement, so for the sake of not forgetting anyone, I'll have the list here.

  • vs. HeirtotheKingdom
  • vs. ThorParker82
  • vs. giliad
  • vs. Lubub55
  • vs. The_Red_Viper
  • vs. Cdiddyman911
  • vs. Sawed_Off_It
  • vs. Cosmicallyaware1
  • vs. HigherPower
  • vs. LanternBatman
  • vs. BlackSpidey2099
  • vs. CreoleCudy
  • vs. VSW
  • vs. Gear
  • vs. Darthjhawk
  • vs. SupremeGenerations
  • Team-up with Apex_Pretador
  • Team-up with Higherpower
  • Team-up with Battle123axe
  • Team-up with EmperorThanos

Battle Forum Arguments

In battle forum, you will always find yourself in situations where you have to repeat something you said, whether it's about an argument, explanation or posting scans. A lot of times some of those things are pretty lengthy and you are either not interested or you don't have time to go over it again. Or you simply can't explain it as good as you could before. However, if you know where you argued on those topics, you can just copy/paste what you already said.

More

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As a fan of Iron Man (Tony Stark) that I am, something most people who know me are aware of, I am not actually a big a fan of how writers of the Ultimate Universe handled him. But, considering the fact that I read all of his appearances, and that he was one character who our good old Cadence/SFW had no interest in making a respect thread for (which is kinda irrelevant here because unfortunately he got perma banned, bruh), I was like, why not? Complete the collection of respect threads for our Ultimate Universe characters. Enjoy.

Introduction of Antonio "Tony" Stark and brief summary on his history

Yes, before you people start calling me out on spelling that incorrectly, Ultimate/Earth-1610 version of Tony Stark is actually called Antonio, not Anthony like his 616 counterpart, although he still uses nickname Tony. One of the main aspects of his character that differentiate him massively from his mainstream counterpart is the fact that he has a twin brother who's older than him for like 20 minutes, Doctor Gregory Stark. The two had pretty messed up relationship, where they would compete with one another over everything. Whatever Tony does or accomplishes, Gregory would try to replicate but in more impressive way. While Stark was genius in his own right, Gregory was mostly considered to be smarter, and rightfully so.

Eventually Tony was revealed to have a brain tumor, and could possibly die at any moment. This motivated him to become a Super Hero known as Iron Man, and was actually he who found Captain America frozen in ice, just like his 616 counterpart, although unlike his 616 counterpart, this version of Tony actively drinks alcohol, and finds amusement in being surrounded by a bunch of women being there for the sake of his entertainment only, while his 616 counterpart mostly had relationships with one woman at the time and was incredibly respectful despite the fact that he was a playboy. Ultimate Tony also spent time traveling around the Multiverse with Reed Richards, eventually even finding a head of his dead counterpart.

Tony eventually became a member of the Ultimates, Ultimate version of the Avengers. However, here, it was organized by Nick Fury and it worked under S.H.I.E.L.D.'s belt. It was also composed of Thor, Captain America, Giant Man, Wasp, Hawkeye and Black Widow. This team stopped Hulk's rampage and the Chitauri invasion, but it stopped working for SHIELD after it was revealed that Black Widow was a Russian spy who helped divide the Ultimates, kill Hawkeye's family and lead team of Liberators to destroy American democratic government, with the help of Loki, who just wanted to screw with his brother Thor. This also let to failed execution of the Bruce Banner, who was revealed to be the Hulk by Black Widow.

While Liberators were stopped, Black Widow's betrayal, plus her death caused by Hawkeye who wanted to take revenge for his wife and kids, left Tony temporary heartbroken because he was actually in love with her. When Carol Danvers tried to put Avengers under SHIELD's belt yet again when she herself became a director, Tony was in a grudge with her, while at the same time spending a lot of time sleeping with her despite the fact that, apparently, neither one of them liked each other. Due to his armor's properties, Magneto was able to make Iron Man partially responsible for Wolverine's death during the Ultimatum wave, which put Tony into a state of depression for few weeks. Ultimates temporary worked for SHIELD afterwards.

After Ultimatum wave, Tony met the daughter of Justin Hammer called Justine, who he cured of disease she received from experiments her father put her through. Eventually Tony fell in love with her during their Armor Wars adventures, when Tony was dealing with an unknown threat with powerful tech trying to steal his own. Eventually this was revealed to be Tony's long believed to be dead grandfather, who wanted to use Tony's tech for himself as well as upgrade his own suit which keeps him alive. This made him come into a possession of a box Tony kept hidden, thinking it is a piece of tech he needed, and forcing Tony to open it. It was revealed to be a head of deceased alternate version of Tony Stark Tony and Reed found at some point.

While his counterpart was dead, his helmet and technology was not. It had a specific ability to "kill" technology around it. Not shut it down, but completely destroyed. Luckily this Tony doesn't require technology to win. Yeah, "lucky he". Because the tech destroyed armors that all the Armors Tony's grandfather and his soldiers wore to keep them alive, killing them, as well as destroying nanites in Justine's body Tony injected her with in order to prevent her from dying because of her powers, killing her as well, leaving Tony in state of depression and removing the opportunity of being with someone he truly cared about yet again. Sometime afterwards, he was able to recover of the economic crisis he was in Post-Ultimatum.

Without being part of SHIELD anymore, Nick Fury hired Gregory Stark to be a part of his secret Avengers black ops program, being the main man and scientist who worked on everything after Fury himself. Together the team did a lot of good work that the Ultimates simply couldn't due to the circumstances of working for Danvers at the time. At least they did until Gregory divided S.H.I.E.L.D. and black ops team into thinking their respective leaders, Carol and Fury, were traitors, in order to take the organization for himself in order to achieve his own goals, but also to prove his superiority to Tony yet again. His plain failed however when Tony outsmarted his brother for the first time, shutting down his harness, allowing Thor to struck him down.

Thor went overboard however, and killed Tony's older brother instead of knocking him out, which surprised Tony. After the fight between Ultimates and Avengers, the latter team became an official black ops unit related to the SHIELD, and Ultimates, along with Tony, started working for SHIELD yet again, under the wing of Nick Fury, who was given back his position as the director by Danvers, who failed as the director of SHIELD in more ways than one, including failing to train Peter Parker (Spider-man) to become a better and more capable hero, who actually literally took a bullet for Captain America in his place because of massacre between two teams Danvers failed to prevent as director of SHIELD, which eventually caused Peter's death.

Tony kept being a member of the Ultimates under the command of Nick Fury, and later Monica Chang, Fury's ex wife, second Black Widow and latest director of SHIELD. Tony was actually a key player in stopping Reed Richards, who went mad, became evil and took the name of the Maker. Tony outsmarted Reed and used his tumor (who became sentient and took the form of separate consciousness called "Anthony", with look and behavior of kid Tony, who possessed technopathic abilities) to control Maker's city and main computer network to sabotage all of his operations, allowing the team to imprison him.

For Steve Rogers on the other hand, the overwhelming guilt over being partially responsible for Peter's death made him quit the Ultimates and give up the title of Captain America and his SHIELD, but he was convinced to come back by Nick Fury when his country needed him. When the America was in crisis, Ultimates were trying to stabilize the situations and help people in their own ways, Tony's being the idea of Iron Patriot, a new identity he adopted and used for some time, even making a new suit with American colors, although he came back to being Iron man shortly. Eventually Tony was killed by the Maker, who removed Tony's tumor, Anthony, from him, figuring out that it was actually an Infinity Gem all along.

However, Tony's consciousness survived, allowing him to take control of parts of Maker's technology to create a pilot-less Iron Man armor under Tony's control, destroy Maker's support, outsmart him yet again, take control of his tech and shut it down, use it to give Thor back his God Like powers, heal his own dead body and transport his consciousness back into his brain, although he lost his technopathic powers, but at least he got rid of the tumor. Unfortunately, both SHIELD and the Ultimates were disbanded when Galactus from 616 Universe came to Earth, killed Captain America and required Thor to be trapped forever in Negative Zone in order to get rid of Galactus. Without Thor and Captain America, there can't be the Ultimates.

Tony eventually became a founding member of Ultimate Future Foundation, and later helped Fury, Maker and little forces they have left to face the main Marvel Universe in Secret Wars' Incursions, fight between last two remaining Marvel Universes. Ultimate Universe and everyone in it were erased, or so we believed, until it was revealed by Maker and 616 version of Miles Morales that it still exist, with both Thor and Captain America apparently being alive. The Ultimates decided the travel throughout the Multiverse and chase down the Maker.

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Here is Ultimate Iron Man's bio from Official Handbook of the Ultimate Marvel Universe: Ultimate X-Men - The Ultimates (2005). It's incredibly outdated because it came out in 2005, but it is there.

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In case you are interested in info provided by power grids, here is official description on each class from 1-7:

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Based on this, you can get the idea on how powerful and proficient this version of Tony is. Of course, power grids aren't the best source of info out there, but my job is to provide all the info I can find and show it to you. What you will do with it is on you so take the above as you wish.

Strength, Striking Power & Durability

Iron Man is pretty strong. As it has been stated, he is a low class 100 tonner.

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He is capable of casually pulling damaged bus out of the water (or rumble) using a rope.

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Source: Ultimate War #1.

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Can rip steel apart like it's paper.

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Source: Ultimate F.F. #3.

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He can easily carry civilians, and can also support the building/house for people to get out.

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Source: Ultimatum: Spider-man Requiem #2.

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Casually holds the entire plane with his gripping strength alone.

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Source: Ultimates Annual Vol. 2 #1.

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Punches the Hulk and sends him fly away, staggering him, even tho his armor was badly damaged.

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Source: Ultimates #5.

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Tony was able to go toe-to-toe with a small army of Atlanteans and overpower some of them.

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Source: Ultimate F.F. #3.

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He can also rip Silver Surfer's head (Heralds in this arc weren't that durable tho).

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Source: Ultimate Extinction #4.

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Flies through Chitauri ship with Thor, busting through it like knife through butter. Although this could be more of a durability feat, which I guess it is given that their ships have pretty decent durability.

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Source: Ultimates #11.

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Busts a hole through the ground and carries Blob away. Although this is Ultron controlling the Armor so it is possible he made it himself, making this feat's relevance questionable.

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Source: Ultimates Vol. 3 #2.

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Lifts and briefly holds giant Chitauri flying ship.

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Source: Ultimates #12.

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Tony was able to brawl with Namor for a second, and wasn't hurt after he threw him to the side.

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Source: Ultimate F.F. #2.

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Easily rips Chitauri's Solar System busting bomb out of the containment and holds it.

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Source: Ultimates #13.

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Tony stopped a Mjolnir blow from alternate version of Thor with his bare hands.

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Source: Ultimate F.F. #6.

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He is also pretty durable.

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He was able to tank an electricity attack from morals off Silver Surfer.

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Source: Ultimate Extinction #4.

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After trying to blitz Colossus at high speeds, the mighty X-Man is still strong enough to easily stop him. While this sudden stop made Tony's boot fall off, his chest piece, which Colossus grabbed, wasn't that damaged.

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Source: Ultimate War #4.

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It can also protect him from Adamantium claws from morals off Wolverine at least just a little bit.

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Source: Ultimate War #4.

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He tanked a blitz from Blur with no damage.

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Source: Ultimate Power #2.

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He tanked a blow from alternate version of Cyclops who has superhuman strength, with no damage.

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Source: Ultimate F.F. #6.

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Tony tanked Sandman in his sandstorm form slamming him into the ground while compromising his armor, and then punching him in his humanoid form with an incredibly large fist. Tony's armor is also apparently capable of rebooting, allowing it to start over even if it takes too much damage.

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Source: Ultimate Six #6.

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His and Natasha's armor, protected them from a cosmic blast from angry Havoc. Although both of them were one shotted and their armors were damaged.

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Source: Ultimate X-Men Vol. 1 #64.

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His armor allowed him to go toe-to-toe with Captain Marvel Carol Danvers, tho he was apparently still overpowered, and Carol was able to tear it apart at least a little bit.

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Source: Secret Wars #1.

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Repulsors, Firepower & Armor Versatility

Iron Man Armor is pretty versatile, capable of controlling and projecting energy in a lot of versatile ways, as well as different types of offensive projectiles.

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It also has a bunch of other versatile abilities that can be used offensively and defensively, like repulsors, uni-beam, thought scramblers, invisibility, force fields, tracking system, communication system, computer access as well as the ability to either recharge his armor or use satellites to remotely control other armors.

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His force field is pretty durable. As you can see below, Chitauri tricked Nick Fury and the Ultimates into thinking they are in a different location, while in truth, they set a trap for them and literally nuked them. This nuke is apparently powerful enough to kill all of them, including Thor (albeit Thor with harness, not God Thor).

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Source: Ultimates #10.

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It was later revealed that they survived because Iron Man has fully functional force field which protected them.

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Source: Ultimates #11.

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Apparently he upgraded the armor because he said how that model let him down multiple times.

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Source: Ultimates #9

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This force field can also be used to trap opponents. Tony did this to Rhino.

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Source: Ultimate Spider-man Vol. 1 #28.

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He also used it on Deathlok despite the fact that his core was damaged.

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Source: Ultimate Spider-man Vol. 1 #70.

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His force field is also capable of easily stopping a Silver Surfer board projectile moving towards him at 99% the speed of light and allow Captain Marvel to shot at it with precision.

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Source: Ultimate Extinction #3.

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Iron Man's main weapon/attack are his repulsor blasts. In his regular Armor, he either fires them from his palms like his comic counterpart, or from large canons on outer side of his gauntlets, depending on artist/writer. They can casually bust through walls, with no resistance.

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Source: Ultimate Spider-man Vol. 1 #90.

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He can fire barrage of those like a machine gun does with bullets.

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Source: Ultimate Extinction #5.

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He one shotted Kree Killform Soldier.

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Source: Ultimate Secret #4.

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They also have a pretty wide range.

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Source: Ultimate F.F. #2.

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Tony made Green Goblin scream in pain with his one repulsor blast.

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Source: Ultimate Six #6.

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Tony's Armor is capable of accessing files of certain meta-humans in S.H.I.E.L.D.'s computers, allowing the armor to analyze their altered physiology and in that way, allow his weaponry to adapt to them for effective takedown. He did this to Sandman, which made Marko blow up after getting hit with his repulsor blast.

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Source: Ultimate Six #6.

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He does not necessarily need access to their database however, as he can analyze one of his opponent's genetic codes, send it to the main computer, and download a form of paralysis attack to his armor to temporarily take them down. He has done so with Norman Osborn/Green Goblin, although it takes time first.

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Source: Ultimate Six #6.

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As seen in next issue, it was pretty effective. Although Norman was in the process of turning into a human, and it took even more attacks to put him down, but the ability is still pretty useful.

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Source: Ultimate Six #7.

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Evil version of Iron Man also has the ability to repel objects and people, although it's not clear if this is the use of magnetism or force field or just different version of the repulsor ray that is either weaker or invisible.

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Source: Ultimate Fantastic Four #53.

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Iron Man can also project several particle focused laser bullets from his gauntlets.

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Source: Ultimates #5.

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He used it to destroy a chunk of Chitauri ship debris, although I can't say if it's the exact same thing.

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Source: Ultimates #13.

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Iron Man's chest beam, known as Uni-Beam, is also ridiculous powerful. It can do this to Silver Surfer.

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Source: Ultimate Extinction #3.

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Iron Man also has flamethrowers, and pretty goddamn powerful ones at that.

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Source: Ultimate War #3.

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His armor has a bunch of crazy abilities, like light-negativity, thought-scramblers, tracking system that impresses even Nick Fury, and is overall something SHIELD itself fantasized about.

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Source: Ultimates #2.

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Those though scramblers drain a lot of Iron Man's power tho (although it could be that that is the cause because of the huge amount of damage he has taken) and are projected from his palms. They create similar effect to sonics and can cause a lot of damage to even the Hulk himself, making him vomit.

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Source: Ultimates #5.

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Tony's armor also has thermal sensors, allowing him to detect life signs around the era.

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Source: Ultimates #10.

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His sensors allowed him to detect the X-Men.

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Source: Ultimate War #3.

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His Armor's sensors are very very effective sensors. He can scan entire surroundings like buildings, for vital signals/life signs, as well as send his readings and data to others, such as S.H.I.E.L.D. He also has infra-red scanners/vision.

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Source: Ultimate Six #3.

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Those sensors helped him detect Spider-man buried under debris.

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Source: Ultimatum: Spider-man Requiem #2.

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As well as Namor from below their level.

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Source: Ultimate F.F. #2.

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His sensors can also scan body's reactions, which can serve as effective lie detector.

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Source: Ultimate Six #4.

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Tony's armor can also shut down holographic devices covering Xavier's school, revealing it's actual appearance.

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Source: Ultimate War #1.

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Tony's armor also has X-Ray projectors, allowing him to see through objects.

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Source: Ultimate War #4.

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If his armor gets drained, and therefor becomes dysfunctional, he can just make it fully operational again by connecting himself to local power grid and drain as much power from it as he needs.

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Source: Ultimates #12.

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Tony's newest armor has onboard holographic computer.

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Source: Ultimate F.F. #5.

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His newest Armor also has modular components, allowing it to attach and detach certain parts of technology to it for a variable task at hand, such as detaching jumper cables to the suit and attaching them to the generator for the suit to provide extra power to it.

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Source: Ultimate F.F. #1.

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Tony's armor also has an A.I. that can inform him of suit's condition mid combat.

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Source: Ultimate F.F. #1.

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Flight, Travel & Combat/Reaction Speed

Iron Man is obviously capable of flight due to jet boosters on his boots.

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Source: Ultimates #2.

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Back in a day, he used to launch his suit from the base before flying.

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Source: Ultimate Extinction #5.

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Apparently he can travel at Mach 2/Super Sonic speed, and possibly reach Orbital Velocity.

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His bio referenced this as well.

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The suit he made for Black Widow, could go Mach 3.

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Source: Ultimates Vol. 2 #4.

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He used this traveling speed to blitz and bullrush the Hulk and even bust through roof quite casually, although Hulk was distracted here by fighting Hank Pym.

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Source: Ultimates #5.

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He can fly at high speeds to bust through Chitauri flying ship.

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Source: Ultimates #11.

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He can fly at high speeds to surprise the X-Men.

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Source: Ultimate War #3.

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He also tried to use this speed to blitz Colossus.

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Source: Ultimate War #4.

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His best feat of and perception and brain speed. When he was able to perceive Silver Surfer projectile moving towards them at 99% the speed of light. He later used his force field to stop it, so it is a showing of reaction time speed as well (I didn't post the scan here but it is on the thread). This is probably an outlier tho.

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Source: Ultimate Extinction #3.

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He stated he can fly across continent at high speeds, tho this could be an exaggeration.

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Source: Ultimate Secret #2.

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Can move away from blast radius of nuclear explosion in minutes.

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Source: Ultimate Wolverine vs. Hulk #2.

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He can change direction mid flight relatively quickly.

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Source: Ultimate X-Men Vol. 1 #63.

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Tony can also (apparently) evade energy blasts from Doctor Spectrum mid-flight.

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Source: Ultimate Power #5.

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Tony was also capable of partially keeping track of Jean-Paul's movements while having powers of a speedster. He did not come close to tagging him but he fired multiple repulsor blasts and could at least partially track him.

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Source: Ultimate X-Men Vol. 1 #64.

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Armors, Tech & Inventions

Tony's greatest invention is obviously his Iron Man Armor, which is incredibly advanced, has a lot of versatile abilities and is extremely impressive even to Nick Fury himself.

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Source: Ultimates #2.

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His armor was described as "bacterial body armor", which works like a second skin, obviously enhances Tony's durability and even provides him with pain killers.

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Tony also apparently had an armor called Iron Man 6, which he can remotely control.

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Source: Ultimate Fantastic Four #52.

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He also invented another Armor for Black Widow (Natasha Romanov).

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Source: Ultimates 2 #4.

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She is a street leveler with enhanced stats, but the armor increased her physical capabilities.

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This is from the same bio as the one I used for Tony himself (Official Handbook of the Ultimate Marvel Universe - Ultimate X-Men - The Ultimates (2005)). Same bio says she can control the armor because she is linked to it with nanites injected into her body.

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The armor also (apparently) has most abilities Tony's regular armor has (feats have already been posted):

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Tony made countless armors that served as a staple throughout his carrier.

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He apparently also made tons of armors that resemble his 616 version's models, even tho he never used them on-panel.

Ultimatum: Spider-man Requiem #1:

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Ultimate Spider-man Vol. 1 #153:

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He also made several special ones that were rarely used. Their showings will be included below.

One of those being a spare Armor which resembles War Machine in both appearance and weaponry, which allowed him to beat Ultron using one of his Armors as well as tank his repulsor blasts.

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Source: Ultimates Vol. 3 #5.

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Those drones are also used for clean up.

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Source: Ultimate Captain America Annual #1.

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Tony and Stark International were working on mutant-location system which is essentially an updated version of Charles Xavier's Cerebro device, but unlike Cerebro, it works on global scale and connects to worldwide satellite network. If it weren't for Magneto, they would have been capable of pinpointing any mutant and X-Men regardless of whether their tech is cloaked or not.

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Source: Ultimate War #2.

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He also made highly advanced metal arm for Misty Knight, which has a bunch of crazy abilities.

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Source: Ultimate Extinction #3.

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Intelligence, Skills, Perks & More

Tony is incredibly intelligent and respected. He is top tier genius apparently.

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He was stated to be phenomenal scientific genius and inventor. Apparently because he enhanced his intelligence with body-wide neural tissue.

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When Doctor Otto Octavius, who is incredibly intelligent in Ultimate Universe, talked about his achievements, he started to bring up incredibly intelligent people from the planet who didn't accomplish what he did. One of geniuses he brought up was Tony Stark.

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Source: Ultimate Spider-man Vol. 1 #103.

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Tony's mind was described as brilliant, and one of the best the planet has to offer.

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Source: Ultimate F.F. #2.

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He was also referred to as one of the world's smartest scientists.

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Source: Ultimate F.F. #1.

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Sam Wilson brings up the fact that "all of them" (F.F.) are geniuses, and that includes Tony.

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Source: Ultimate F.F. #1.

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When Susan planned on taking down Reed Richards, who went mad, and wanted to call the Ultimates, she said how all of the files they have need to be sent to Tony Stark himself, out of all people.

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Source: Ultimate Doom #2.

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It was Tony's company that built the first S.H.I.E.L.D. fleet and the Hellicarrier.

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Source: Death of Spider-man: Avengers vs. New Ultimates #4.

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Tony designed the reactor powering Triskelion. One of the perks he provided is lights that don't go down.

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Source: Ultimate War #2.

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When Fury said they need more people to deal with the crisis at hand, Captain America already expected it to be Iron Man/Tony Stark, because he is "the brains" and "science guy".

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Source: Ultimate Nightmare #1.

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Nick Fury, the director of S.H.I.E.L.D., Super Soldier and over 80-year old veteran is incredibly impressed by Tony Stark, saying how he has never seen anyone like him. Apparently, Tony is capable of preforming some absurd multi tasking feats of overall proficiency. Like conduct a multi-lingual business deal, satisfy a girlfriend over the phone, and memorize 600 military briefing, all at the same time.

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Source: Ultimates #10.

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Tony was one of very few individuals that possessed enough skill and intelligence to be a part of gathering of geniuses who were suppose to stop a world-ending threat. The fact that geniuses like Sue Storm, Stephen Hawking and Reed Richards were here makes this really impressive for Tony.

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Source: Ultimate Vision #0.

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Only Tony was able to figure out how Rick Jones' powers work, without having any actual experience with them, as well as coming up with a hypothetical solution to their problem and how they can use his powers to fix it. Pretty impressive given the fact that Doctor Doom wasn't sure about this himself, and asked Tony few questions related to the topic. Unfortunately, Tony failed measurably in explaining anything to Rick himself.

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Source: Ultimate F.F. #4.

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His multi tasking abilities were referenced in his bio as well, as well as his good memory.

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Tony was third richest man on the planet during the period of formation of the Ultimates.

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Source: Ultimates #6.

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Tony apparently has regenerating abilities as well, even without his armor. To what extend is unknown.

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8 Comments

Top 20 Most Powerful Naruto Jutsu/Techniques

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Naruto is probably my favorite Anime of all time, and is actually the only Manga I read. The show is/was quite different than it was when it came out. These people went from enhanced humans to Gods. I always love to look back when the fights were more tactical and grounded, but I don't mind the absurd level of hax and DBZ level explosions we used to seeing every since War Arc (and Pain arc to a degree). But what are the most powerful jutsu/techniques in Naruto? It's a bit hard to tell given that there are so many techniques of a kind, so ABC logic is pretty hard to apply. But I will try and rank top 20 most powerful jutsu. If you have any disagreements, feel free to bring them up. Before we start, few things you need to consider.

I will not be including powers. So Sharingan, Rinnegan, Yin-Yang Release, Six Paths Sage Mode, Tailed Beast state, Wood Release and what not are not things you will be seeing on this list. I only count specific techniques. I won't be counting Susanoo however because everyone has different form of Susanoo. However, that doesn't mean I won't count techniques that can be used by Susanoo or any other visual powers. Same goes for Kekkei Mora abilities. Sometimes I'll use Anime names, sometimes I'll use Manga names, just to avoid confusion. First, lets get into honorable mentions:

Reaper Death Seal/Dead Demon Consuming Seal

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This is one incredibly powerful technique. Arguable one of the most powerful sealing jutsu. It allows you to summon Shinigami/Reaper and allow him to seal opponent's soul into Reaper's belly. Pretty powerful no limit fallacy technique. Expect it's not. This jutsu has a lot of handicaps. First one being that the user of this jutsu also gets killed by the Reaper, so you have to give up your own life to use it. It's also not incredibly fast either. Another thing is that, it can't seal everything and anyone, and is also limited by the strength of the user. Hiruzen Sarutobi couldn't seal Orochimaru and could only remove his arms, and while he was stabbed through the heart, it's still something that needs to be considered. Minato also couldn't use it on Nine Tails because it was so powerful, and could only seal half of it's chakra. So at best, it could seal weaker Tailed Beasts, but again, it still depends on strength of the user and you will still die. These limitations and flaws prevent it from being on this list, but it does deserve an honorable mention.

Edo Tensei/Summoning Jutsu: Reanimation/Summoning: Impure World Reincarnation

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This is one incredibly broken ability, especially after being used by Kabuto. It allows you to bring as many dead people as you want back to life, in almost prime condition and almost at full power, with memories of their entire lives and knowledge on their abilities, while maintaining certain characteristics they lost when they died. All under your control, even while your miles away. And if that wasn't broken enough, all of these reanimated ninja have infinite chakra, complete immunity to pain, immortality and the ability to regenerate from anything (unless you have Six Paths Sage Mode and Truth Seeking Orbs) no matter how damaged they are. On top of that, killing the caster of the jutsu will not undo the jutsu. It will actually make it impossible to undo. The only way to undo it is to make the caster release it. Yeah it's a pretty broken ability. Why is it not on the list? Well, it's not because some powerful characters can resist reanimation control or to release the jutsu themselves. Or that they retain their personality. The reason why this is an honorable mention is because, the effectiveness of this jutsu is so relative that it is impossible to decide where to put it. Simply put, you can reanimate anyone from fodder to Madara and Hashirama. It's incredibly relative to what DNA you can/device to use. And even then, depending on who you bring back, they can still be dazed and eventually sealed away. Because it depends on who you bring back to life, it's impossible to decide where to put it. But this is definitely the most broken ability in all of Naruto and deserves an honorable mention.

Shadow Clones Technique/Kage Kage Bunshin no Jutsu

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This is just like Impure World Reincarnation. Shadow Clones is stupid, broken ability. It allows you to create hundreds to thousands of copies of yourself, all of which are just slightly weaker than the original, while retaining the personality of the original. Depending on who uses them, they can be spread through the entire country away from the original. This allows incredibly effective multi tasking tactics and overwhelming your opponent. Another broken thing about shadow clones is that, when a clone disappears or gets destroyed, the original receives all memories and experience of the clone(s) that disappeared. This is effective in training as well, by creating several clones to train with you, and with all of them working as one, not only does it slow down time necessary to learn something, but it also gives you more and more knowledge and experience your clones received. Why is it not on the list? For similar reason as to why Reanimation didn't make it. A lot of people can use shadow clones, so the effectiveness of it depends on power of the user and their chakra reserves. Weaker user will have weaker clones than stronger user (like Tobirama compared to Naruto) and not all of them can summon the same number of clones nor can they retain them as much as someone like Naruto could. Some also can't keep them that far away from themselves. In other words, it depends on who uses this technique, and people like Tobirama, Minato and Kakashi are not as nearly as effective as Naruto and they can use Shadow Clones, so it's impossible to say where to put this, and it would be unfair to look at Naruto only because he's the most powerful and the most proficient user. Thus, it gets an honorable mention.

Creation of All Things Technique

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This is a technique used by Hagaromo Otsutsuki to create Nine Tailed Beasts, using energy and chakra from Ten Tails and dispersing it into 9 Biju. The process of this jutsu revolves around user's imagination, allowing them to create life or any effect they desire, applying Yin-Yang release. Using spiritual energy which forms the basis of Yinchakra, one can create physical forms from nothing, and through the application of vitality and the physical energy which forms the basis of Yang chakra, the user can give life to his creations. It has also been stated that arguably the most powerful genjutsu, the Izanagi, was created with the principles of this jutsu. It is so effective that Hagaromo used Divine Tree combining itself with his mother Kaguya to form the Ten Tails, to create 9 separate entities who by themselves are not actually in any way related to Ten Tails. All 9 beasts have their own distinct personality, appearance, abilities, behavior and gender. Even after resurrecting Ten Tails and Kaguya, the 9 beasts still existed inside without being completely absorbed, which shows the absurd level of effectiveness of this technique. The problem is, it is useless in combat related situations, and detailed information on this technique has never been provided. We don't know the exact detailed process of it's use, therefor I don't know if it should be lower or higher than some other techniques I put here, even less why. Regardless, this is some reality warping level of absurdity, so it gets an honorable mention.

Divine: Deep Forest Emergence/God: Nativity of a World of Trees

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This technique can only be used by the owner of Rinne Sharingan, and it allows the user to manipulate the roots of the God/Divine Tree, spreading them around the entire world to encase those caught within the Infinite Tsukuyomi. By ensnaring all living beings and connecting them to the tree, similar to cocoons, this will keep their now-slumbering bodies alive so long as they remain attached, while sapping their chakra. It's incredibly powerful technique. Not only can it catch and drain anyone's chakra as long as they are affected by the genjutsu, but you literally create planet level tree, hence spreading it across the entire planet to keep them inside. However, whoever is lucky enough to resist the effects of Infinite Tsukuyomi can easily cut the tree, and while it will always grow back, it's pretty much useless in combat, and can't be used without Infinite Tsukuyomi being activated prior to it. It's absurd due to it's scale, but not relevant enough to be on the list.

Number 20 - Tsukuyomi

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An extremely powerful ocular genjutsu used by Itachi, granted to him by his MS. While it does act like regular genjutsu caused by eye contact at first, it is actually way more broken and is extremely hard to break away from, even by users of the Sharingan. Aside from putting people in an illusion, it gives you complete control over things they see and feel, allowing the caster to cause extreme mental damage to an opponent. This put Part 1 Kakashi and Sasuke (both of whom have Sharingan) in a coma and they wouldn't even wake up if it weren't for Tsunade's medical jutsu. But the most effective thing about this genjutsu is that it allows you to affect the time flow of the effect to your will. Unlike with most, if all genjutsu, this one can make the target go through hours, days and even years of torture or influence while few seconds pass in real life. This can cause extreme level of trauma to the victim. There is another source which confirms this ability can make people live through their entire lives and decades through a portion of an attosecond in real life and even die, but I don't know how canon that is. Regardless, the reason why this is so low on the list is because, if you success in not looking at Itachi's eyes or you have an extemely powerful visual abilities, you can counter this technique.

Number 19 - Shinra Tensei/Almighty Push

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This is a technique that all Rinnegan users have access to, although it does require a lot of skill and chakra to actually be used properly. It's an ability of Deva Path, which controls attractive and repulsive forces. Originally, Almighty Push is an ability Deva Path uses to propel their opponents backwards with magnetic like, repulsive force, creating powerful, omnidirectional shockwave projected from user's body. It can also be used defensively, like when Nagato prevent Amaterasu from keep burning him just by using Shinra Tensei to repulse them away from him (Amaterasu being Black Flames that can burn anything, even other powerful flames, and can't be extinguished no matter what you do, and apparently they keep burning for seven whole days). But the real power of this technique is seen when Nagato uses his full power to focus on it only, which creates nuclear bomb like ground zero shockwave, leaving a crater, and is capable of destroying an entire village.

Number 18 - Izanagi

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A technique developed in a similar fashion as Creation of all Things, this jutsu can only be used by someone who possesses the power of both Uchiha and Senju clan. A huge difference between this and most other genjutsu is that, you don't actually put others in an illusion but yourself. Once Izanagi is activated, the user can affect their own state of being, shifting and manipulating reality relative to themselves by making things that happened to them an illusion and thing they want to happen to be reality, in exchange for sight in one eye. Most users of this technique use it to bring themselves back to life. While this may seem like lowball for me putting it so below on the list because it is actually a Naruto ability that warps reality, the actual limitations of the technique are kinda vague. It has been stated that you can rewrite your own reality, but they weren't very specific. Nobody actually used it to do things like make themselves more powerful than they are. Only to bring themselves back to life. And while that by itself is broken enough, since the only way to gain access to this ability is to have power of Uchiha and Senju (although there was this PIS instance with Itachi's story), meaning you will most likely be an Uchiha with Sharingan to use this ability, sacrificing even one of your eyes (which has to be Sharingan) is fatal for Uchiha because even more basic abilities they have, and of course their most powerful ones, come from the Sharingan. And if you can constantly keep your opponent hard pressed, you can still beat him.

Number 17 - Izanami

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While this is a complete asspull and ruins already established source material about you only being able to use Izanagi if you possess the power of both Uchiha and the Senju, because the arc that introduces this genjutsu literally contradicts this claim due to origin of this one, Izanami is a genjutsu made to counter Izanagi, and is apparently successful at doing so. And according to Itachi, it is more powerful than Izanagi, and rightfully so. In order to be casted, it requires some kind of physical action with an opponent first, and like with Izanagi, the use of Izanami needs to sacrifice sight in one eye to use it, and again, just like with Izanagi, the eye needs to be Sharingan. The whole point of it is that, while Izanagi alters destiny, Izanami decides/controls destiny, making it a perfect counter for Izanagi, although this is a vague explanation and it can still affect non Izanagi users. What it actually does is, it puts them inside an illusion where they keep repeating several physical actions they preformed in real world while the jutsu was about to be used. The order of those actions is constantly repeated, although sometimes in different order, putting the victim in fake time loop, one they can't possibly break away from because the whole nature and use of the genjutsu does make it look like you are constantly living in the same moment, instead of being put in an illusion which is mostly obvious with genjutsu. Every time a victim experiences the action, the loop will continue over and over. The type of physical experience they will see will be identical to the one that happened in real life that memorizes the user, although he can use multiple moments to cause a loop, making the victim go through multiple actions and deja vu moments, making it way more complex and effective. While the victim can realize the fact it is inside an illusion and change their own personal actions and behavior, they will always end up repeating the same moment, which does require creativity and multiple use of options of experienced used by the caster to create a loop. While in real life, the victim is completely motion less and influential.

Number 16 - Particle Style: Atomic Dismantling (Dust Release)

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Ironically, this is actually the only Dust Release/Particle Style technique that was ever showcased in the Manga, and only two users have access to it. Second Tsuchikage Mu and his pupil, Ohnoki the Third Tsuchikage. Literally the only difference between Mu's and Ohnoki's application is the shape of technique (size can be altered). So it might as well count as Dust Release ability as well, but it has it's own jutsu so it does apply regardless. Unlike most non basic nature techniques, this ability falls into a category of kekkei tota, which is combination of not two, but three basic nature transformations. In this case, it's a combination of fire, earth, and wind natures. What this technique does is, it projects a cube/rectangle/roller-like chakra field (again, shape and size vary) out of their hands by combining chakra natures. Any person or object the jutsu comes in contact with is almost instantly reduced to their molecular structure (or near molecular structure to be exact). In other words, this jutsu serves as transmutation ability, and unless someone has Rinnegan or absurd level of durability, he/she will get disintegrated. Ohnoki was able to extend the size of this jutsu so much, to the point that he one-shotted 25 Madara Uchiha Wood Clones using legged Susanoo and destroy almost 50% of Madara's original body. If it weren't for the fact that he was reanimated, Madara would probably die in that situation. The reason why it's lower on the list is because, not only does it require a lot of chakra to be used, but people with massive speed, maneuverability and chakra absorbing abilities can easily counter this jutsu.

Number 15 - Flying Thunder God/Flying Raijin Jutsu

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This is the most common and most know space-time ninjutsu in Naruto, used and developed by Second Hokage Tobirama, and later used by Minato as well (the Fourth Hokage). It allows them to create marks on any surface, whether it being organic or non organic. It can't be removed by normal means, and it allows the user of this jutsu to be teleported to any location of that contains these marks and speed great enough to even overwhelm Fourth Raikage and Juubi Obito. There is no limit to the amount marks that can be created, and the amount of chakra necessary to teleport is pretty minimal. While 3 Jonins can use Flying Raijin, they can only do it if all three of them stand in very specific formation. In that case it is useless in combat and only serves for transportation purposes. However, both Tobirama and Minato can use it in combat in the same fashion as Nightcrawler, applying their speed and spatial awareness in combat. It can be used to blitz opponents, dodge attacks, overwhelm them with barrages of attacks, escape a certain difficult situation, or just teleport anything and anyone they or their chakra touches. Minato was able to create a teleportation mark in the air to teleport large Biju Blast fired at them from Kurama, and was even able to teleport overcharged Biju Bomb from Ten Tails quite casually, although that one was temporarily stopped by Killer Bee. Tobirama was able to teleport Naruto to sucker punch Juubito, and even teleport Truth Seeking Orb back to Juubito before the explosion. When Minato comined his Yin Kurama Chakra to Naruto's Yang Kurama Chakra, he was able to teleport the entire Shinobi Alliance away from Crimson Ray Formation Barrier just because they were connected to Naruto's chakra. This can almost be incredibly effective when you left markings on kunai and spread them across the battlefield or throw them in certain directions before the fight, allowing for massive maneuverability, defense or options for counter attack. This was one of the techniques that was capable of dealing with Obito using Kamui after fighting him for only few minutes, while everybody else who fought Obito and had experience with him and spending several hours trying to counter his ability couldn't do so. And even after realizing what he can do and having specific counter for his ability due to Kakashi having the exact same power, just different application, they still couldn't deal with him as nearly as effectively as Minato did. It's even more broken when you use shadow clones, which can also teleport. It can also be used in combined with the other user. When Tobirama and Minato marked themselves, they were not only able to switch places with one another, but they were able to preform some pretty impressive combo. Like Naruto and Sasuke attacking Juubito with their combined attack, him being ready to defend, Minato coming on front to get hit by their attack instead, distracting Obito, allowing Tobirama to teleport behind him, grab him by the back, and then use combined Flying Rajin to switch places between Minato and Tobirama, and therefor Obito as well since Tobirama had physical contact with him at the time, and had Juubito get hit by the attack that was a split second away from hurting Minato, with the latter being teleported to where Obito and Tobirama were.

Number 14 - Kotoamatsukami

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Kotoamatsukami is like the most broken Sharingan ability ever, and is easily the strongest Genjutsu in the whole Naruto after Infinite Tsykuyomi. It was used by Shisui Uchiha and was later obtained by Danzo and Itachi's crow, since both of Shisui's Mangekyo Sharingans had the same ability, with Danzo stealing the right eye and Itachi transplanting it to crow's left eye after Shisui gave it to him. What it does is, it puts the target under genjutsu and makes them inflicted to Shisui's will. However, this technique does not work like simple mind control or illusion you are stuck in, which can be easily noticed and/or released/negated. Instead, what it does is, it makes the target do anything the user of this genjutsu wants depending on indirect command. The thing is, nobody, not even the target knows he/she is under genjutsu because the applications of this technique don't work that way. The target retains all of it's personal traits, memories, personality and morals. But regardless, they will have to follow the instructions given to them by Shisui's eyes without them even knowing they were influenced by outside source. Similar to being possessed and manipulated but not outright mind controlled. This effect can't be negated or countered in any way, unless if the victim fulfills it's task. Of course, depending on the command, they can stay that way until they die, if the command is relevant to things they will do from now on, not just one specific action. For example, Itachi planned on using it on Sasuke who, no matter how low he falls or no matter how he starts hating everyone, the genjutsu will make him fight for and be a ninja of the Hidden Leaf Village, all while retaining all of his personality traits. What makes it so effective is that the victim behaves more like a person who changed a decision or moral standards, or their personal views, instead of being influenced or manipulated, especially because the control is not direct. It serves more like programming humans like an A.I. rather than controlling them. This technique was even able to free Itachi from Edo Tensei control from Kabuto, and while it didn't technically free him, it put him under genjutsu where he has to obey his command where he will serve Hidden Leaf Village. So while he was still influenced by Impure World Reincarnation, Kotoamatsukami's influence on him was simply stronger, and while Itachi had his personality traits and complete freedom over his movements and decisions, he had to serve Hidden Leaf Village. In that specific case, he had to stop Kabuto and release Impure World Reincarnation. However, when the task is not very specific, it can make a target do multiple things. For example, if Edo Tensei release somehow did not affect Itachi and if he stayed alive, he would still do other things that would benefit his village due to genjutsu, whatever those might be, as that is what was casted on him. The main reason why it's so impressive to overpower the influence of Impure World Reincarnation is because, nobody short of Madara Uchiha and Hashirama Senju, two of the most powerful characters in Naruto (outside of people with Six Paths Powers) with chakra of sons of Sage of Six Paths and power surpassing that of the Tailed Beasts is capable of resisting this technique. The main weakness of this technique is that each eye can only use Kotoamatsukami once every 10 years, which seems like fair limitation given how broken it is, plus the fact that both eyes can do the same thing. This was drastically reduced however when Danzo obtained the eye, as he was able to use it once every other day despite the fact that he was a non Uchiha, although that has more to do with him having cells of Hashirama Senju, and that is just one of several evidences supporting just how powerful Hashirama is and how effective his cells are at healing others and himself when he was alive. Apparently Danzo can use Kotoamatsukami without eye contact, which also makes it way superior to Itachi's, or all Sharingan genjutsu for that matter.

Number 13 - Yomotsu Hirasaka (Underworld Slope Hill)

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This is Kaguya's space-time ninjutsu, which allows her to create black portals/holes in space in any place she wants. Mostly she creates two. One to enter inside, and the other to come out. It is useful transportation ability, but it can be useful in combat, since Kaguya used it to teleport while being in front of Naruto and Sasuke, in order to appear behind them and grab them, all before any of them could even react. She can also create several portals at the same time and choose which one will send the object or a person to the other side. This can be incredibly useful in combat as well, since Kaguya combined this ability with her All Killing Ash Bones, overwhelming and killing one of Naruto's Six Paths Shadow Clones, who's one of the fastest characters in Naruto. She can also create this portals incredibly fast, and can use them in tactical way, such as preventing her opponents to come close to her, or pulling them inside the portal and then creating the portal in other dimension to pull them through and leave them there. Meaning, this space-time jutsu can open portals throughout several dimensions, giving Kaguya access to multiple planes of existence without using Amenominaka.

Number 12 - Sage Art: Wood Release - True Several Thousand Hands

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This is pretty self explanatory. When Hashirama decides to go Sage Mode, he can summon this Godzilla level Buddha made of Wood with 1000 hands, which dwarfs even full Nine Tails in size and can grab it like a toy with one arm alone. Scaling this off of regular wood constructs Hashirama used without Sage Mode would make it impressive enough, but this thing can be easily controlled by Hashirama and is pretty maneuverable and fast for it's mountain+ level size. This thing has enough strength to curbstomp Madara's Perfect Susanoo combined with fully powered Nine Tails, and break more than half of it and overpower Madara and Kurama while the former used several/tons of Fully Powered Tailed Beast Bombs amped by Susanoo Sword, and still got overpowered. And even without those 1000 arms, Buddha construct alone can overpower Kurama and hold it in place, making Madara move to the side. This thing also wields Wood Golem as a hat, a Wood Release Jutsu/construct superior to Madara's Perfect Susanoo in power, capable of deflecting Biju Bomb from Kurama with it's bare hands. And Wood Golem on top of it has Wooden Dragon on it, which is capable of ragdolling and holding KCM2 Kurama Avatar Naruto in place and drain his Chakra, expanding and creating more Wood constructs to also hold Guy and Eight Tails. But yeah, even without those, wrecking Majestic Attire Susanoo is broken enough. A 10x weaker version of this jutsu overwhelmed most of Allied Shinobi Forces.

Number 11 - Fully Charged/Powered Juubi/Ten-Tails Biju Dama/Bomb

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Tailed Beast Bombs/Bijuu Dama is a technique used by the Tailed Beasts, where they focus their chakra to create a DBZ-like ball of energy, which they can project from their mouths. They can either be used as fired ball-like projectile, energy blast or barrage of balls of energy. They will either put them in their mouth and spit it when they fire or will just create them in front of their mouths and shot them. Once Biju Bomb is capable of leveling a mountain, and Kurama/Nine Tails, the most powerful of the Biju, was able to stalemate and reflect Biju Bombs from 5 Tailed Beasts at once with his one Tailed Beast Bomb, with only 50% of it's original power. And that was just casual Biju blast. even 50% of Kurama, while massively weakened and drained of almost all of it's Chakra, which could even be seen based on how scrawny he was, he was still able to overcharge his own Biju bomb and make it way bigger than both him and all other Biju bombs. Ten-Tails, which was just separated into other Tailed Beasts, clearly possesses way more power than all of them. One Biju Blast from the weakest version of Ten Tails, was able to overwhelm two of the most powerful Tailed Beasts at once and casually overpower their own Biju bombs and afterwards, leveling the entire large Mountain Ranges without even hitting them multiple times. Ten Tails in it's second form can create conical-like Biju bomb, which can be fired several countries away and not only create an explosion who's diameter and range dwarfs anything the other Tailed Beasts were able to accomplish, but that same explosion was several times wider and higher than mountains, and could easily be noticed even while being in other countries, similar to seeing a nuke while being few miles away from town. Once it enters it's third form, it is capable of changing shape of it's tongue into a flower that blooms, overcharging it's Biju blast similar to how Kurama does. Not even several large earth blocks created by the Shinobi Alliance and several Biju blasts from second most powerful Tailed Beast couldn't even slow it down or weaken it.

Number 10 - Catastrophic Planetary Devastation (Juubi Madara)

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Chibaku Tensei/Catastrophic Planetary Devastation/Planetary Devastation is the most powerful ability provided by Deva Path of the Rinnengan, and was probably the most powerful technique ever seen in Naruto up until Post-Pain Arc events. This allows the user to create small, black hole-like balls and send them into the air. Once the user claps his hands, the balls start generating gravitational and/or magnetic attractive force capable of pulling objects of it's surroundings into it (mostly rocks), to create Moon like levitating object. It is capable of crushing it's opponents and was even strong enough to make 6-Tailed Kyuubi Naruto look almost helpless, and struggled to pull itself out of it even after almost turning into Nine Tails completely. Even when extremely weakened and drained Nagato used Deva Path of Pain to create it, it was capable of preforming such a feat and being almost as big as the mountain, surpassing even the entire Hidden Leaf Village in size. However, when Madara used it, this technique was on a completely different level (which makes sense given that his Chakra was enhanced by God Tree and Tailed Beasts Chakra). Madara was able to casually create several of these balls and spread them throughout the sky in seconds, and once he activated them, they pulled so much ground towards them, that one levitating rock dwarfed a mountain in size, and approached large mountain ranges in mass and size. And Madara created 20-30+ of those quite casually, making them levitate several miles above the ground. Madara was also capable of allowing them to fall and cause arguably country level devastation with them. Sasuke was also able to use this technique to trap all of the Tailed Beasts until flying rock balls, just by clapping his hands, without even creating black spheres or making any sort of physical contact with them. He was also able to casually move them around and bring them to him while being a country away in seconds, and then using Rinnegan's ability to drain their chakra through the rocks into Susanoo, making him (apparently, it was based on statement tho) equal to Hagaromo in power. The most powerful sealing jutsu in Naruto which can seal the most powerful character in the Manga, has similar applications and name to this technique.

Number 9 - Eighty Gods Vacuum Attack

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This is a taijutsu like technique that allows Kaguya to create several constructs of chakra that take the form of a fist, and can be used to punch the target several times under Kaguya's control, similar to Hashirama's True Several Thousand Hands. This is a pretty effective ability once it's combined with her Byakugan, and can also cover her palms as construct like gloves with claws, capable of one-shotting Naruto's Six Paths Sage Mode Shadow Clones. When used in form of manifested fists, they are capable of matching, overpowering and later overwhelming Naruto using his Kyuubi Chakra Mode arm like constructs enhanced by Six Paths Sage Mode with absolute ease. This attack was also capable of casually destroying all of Sasuke's Complete Body Susanoo enhanced by Six Paths Chakra with just 4 attacks, and doing the same thing with that same technique with a mere shockwave of her attack, pushing Sasuke backwards.

Number 8 - All-Killing Ash Bones

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This is one of Kaguya's basic moves. She is capable of projecting extra bones from her head or palms, taking the form of spikes similar to chakra rods Rinnegan users can use as well as Kimmimaro with his own bones. These bones can stick to her palms to be used as blades or can be fired as incredibly fast projectiles capable of giving Naruto and Sasuke trouble and even overwhelm them with combination of other techniques or numbers. Even in dimension with gravity so strong, it was capable of holding Naruto and Sasuke in place, Kaguya was still able to adapt her Ash Bones and allow them to travel as fast and regain their momentum compared to normal Earth's gravity. But what really makes this ability to effective is that, not only can it pierce through anything in the verse, but everything it pierces turns to ash and gets destroyed. Even Shadow Clones of Six Paths Sage Mode KCM2 Naruto get one-shotted by these things. Coupled with the fact that how effective she can use them and easily tag other people with them, they are a force to be reckoned with.

Number 7 - Kamui Shurikens

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After granting him both of his Mangekyo Sharingan and amping it with Six Paths power he had left, Obito left Kakashi with an ability that has hax written all over it and screams "broken". This DMS Kamui hax gave Kakashi the ability to apply his space manipulating ocular power to a weapon only Kakashi's Susanoo showcased, those being Shurikens. Unlike Madara's and Sasuke's Susanoo who only use weapons for showcase of raw power, Kamui shurikens actually turn into large Kamui teleporters identical to ones Obito's left eye creates (the one Kakashi used), right after they hit the target. They also teleport the target much faster than regular Kamui and unlike with Kakashi's original power, does not rely on high concentration and effort to teleport, nor does it require you looking at it. He is also capable of throwing multiple of those at extreme accuracy, and they are extremely fast projectiles capable of reacting to and tagging unstable Juubi Rabbit Kaguya. They were also able to work after hitting her despite the fact that that form of her drains anything it touches, even Six Paths Naruto clone. Those teleporters were also powerful and proficient enough to teleport certain piece of middle part of Kaguya's/Juubi's tail, effectively removing it from this plane and therefor tearing the tails from Kaguya's body. Without some kind of distraction or speed abuse, I don't think any Naruto character can actually counter this.

Number 6 - Night Guy

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Night Guy is pretty easy to explain given the fact that it is a taijutsu move, so a physical attack. It's a move Guy uses, which is a punch landed on opponent using a leg supported by momentum gained by running towards an opponent and jumping at him with all that momentum and force, ending the fight with a leg kick. It is by far the most powerful attack Guy has, as it is the most powerful strike he has once he opens the Eight Gate of Death, becoming the strongest Naruto character (not the most powerful obviously) and possessing the power tens of times greater than the Five Kage. This attack is so powerful, it completely destroys Guy's leg while his other attacks just crack his bones, and even bends space once it reaches the target, meaning it reaches relativistic speed to say the least. This attack was able to almost kill Juubi Madara, and while he only had one Rinnegan, did not have all of the Truth Seeking Orbs, had some of the Tailed Beast Chakra extracted from him and wasn't connected to the God Tree, his entire arm and upper left part of his torso and chest were completely torn apart, and left side of his face badly wounded. While that by itself is impressive, what actually puts this attack so high on the list is scaling that can be used with Guy's obviously weaker attacks. Seventh Gate Guy, who was leagues below this version, was able to one-shot Madara's regular Susanoo, which no-sold Cataclysm from Juubi. And his regular Eighth Gates move, Evening Elephant, was capable of causing permanent damage to Madara's forehead and stagger him pretty badly, something Hirudora couldn't come close to doing. And that was preformed just by the air pressure caused by the punch, which is the weakest 8th Gates punch. More powerful punches, without even direct contact and just the air pressure they create, is capable of causing massive harm to Juubi Madara and prevent him from even moving, without even direct hits. A direct blow was able to break the shield made from 4 TSO without even hitting them directly. Just by making Madara fly away towards them and brake through them, and still flying several feet away. Shields made from TSO are capable of no-selling Multi-Mountain+ attacks, and Guy broke them pretty casually. All those attacks didn't come close to damaging Madara as Night Guy did, and are obviously way inferior to this attack.

Number 5 - TIED: Yin-Yang Duo Rasenshuriken Dama & Indra's Arrow

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These are easily two of the strongest attacks/techniques the main two characters have. Naruto's Six Paths: Sage Art: Yin-Yang Release: Double Rasenshuriken Bomb and Sasuke's Indra's Arrow. The reason why this is a tie is because these two attacks literally hit each other and none was more powerful than the other. While there is some debate here on how powerful the attack actually was, like how big was the explosion, how far the shockwaves went, how high in the air were Naruto and Sasuke for it to be scaled off of Valley of the End view and so on. But pure showing is not the reason why those two are so high, but the context being provided and how they were used/created. At base, Naruto and Sasuke with Six Paths Chakra are incredibly powerful. Easily one of strongest characters in the show, and are capable of fighting THE most powerful characters and give them a solid fight. However, Indra's Arrow is a technique Sasuke used with his Six Paths Susanoo which he used to absorb all of Chakra from all 9 Tailed Beasts he captured, essentially turning it into Gedo Statue like Susanoo and pseudo Ten Tails. Yin Kurama even stated that Sasuke's move made him equal to Hagaromo Otsutsuki, and while that may not actually be the case, it's still a noteworthy statement. This amp also made Sasuke went from a guy who's weaker than Naruto, to a guy who trashes Naruto and multiple clones of his. And Indra's Arrow used literally all of the Chakra he absorbed, to the point that his Susanoo got destroyed and he lost all of that amp. Naruto's attack stalemated his, and it was created from Naruto using Yin-Yang Release and apply Bijuu Chakra to create Six Paths Duo Tailed Beast Bomb Rasenshuriken. However, he did this after combining his Kurama clones with his original body to make himself even more powerful, while at the same time while fighting Sasuke, using another one of his Kurama Avatar clones to absorb Nature Energy from the entire surroundings (Multi Mountain+++ sized battle field) and applying it to Sage Mode amp before using the attack. So while it is hard to quantify the damage output of these attacks, they get the number 5 spots simply by scaling with already extremely powerful characters and considering numbers, types and natures of amps and origins of attacks/techniques themselves. It's pretty absurd. Plus, stalemating one another also puts things into perspective and is a good showing for both.

Number 4 - Amenominaka

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This is a technique Kaguya used against Team 7. It comes from the power of her Rinne Sharingan and allows her to warp dimensions around herself and her opponents, effectively teleporting them into different planes of reality. These include lava dimension, ice dimension, desert like dimension, dimension with large gravitational pulls and Kaguya's own personal dimension. It might not seem like much, but this ability was able to press Naruto and Sasuke more than anyone every did before in their current form. Not only can she do it before the two of them finish blitzing her, but she can decide in what parts of it will they teleport in. Like when she teleported him inside the ice block. She is also capable of manipulating environments and structures of those dimensions and bending them to her will. This ability was even able to overwhelm Naruto.

Number 3 - Six Paths: Chibaku Tensei

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This is technique originally used by Hagaromo and Hamura Otsutuki. Hagaromo later gained enough power to use the technique by himself, and he gave power of Yin Release to Sasuke and Yang Release to Naruto. With the power of Light and Darkness, Naruto and Sasuke used this jutsu the same way Hagaromo and Hamura used. This is a sealing jutsu, and is easily the most powerful one in Naruto of that category. It works similar to regular Chibaku Tensei/Planetary Devastation, but instead of using Deva Path of Rinnegan to create a small black orb that functions as gravitational field that pulls objects towards it to create mini flying balls of rock, this one applies combined power of Yin and Yang Release used by people who posses Six Paths Chakra in seals on their palms, resembling Moon and the Sun. Once the two users touche their target with those palms and use the power of Yin-Yang Release, the effect will, unlike regular Planetary Devastation, actually turn the target the users touched into the gravitational pull itself, pulling all the surroundings towards it. This technique was powerful enough to seal Kaguya, easily the most powerful character in Naruto, even after gathering all the power Madara obtained (Indra's and Ashura's Chakra, Hashirama's Sage Mode, Wood Release, EMS, Rinnegan, Rinne Sharingan, Tailed Beast Chakra and the God Tree) plus Chakra from God Tree and people under genjutsu that was stated to be too much even for Juubi Madara and was even beyond Juubi Chakra itself, plus absorbing even more Chakra prior to getting sealed. Aside from being turned into gravitational pull and being sealed, this seal also turns Kaguya into a Corpse Like Statue (Gedo Mazo) and separates her from the God Tree and Biju Chakra. But the most broken thing this technique does is that the seal it creates with the gravitation pull actually becomes the Moon, the mass of it being the whole 1.2% of Earth's mass, and then being sent upwards way beyond Earth's orbit without even affecting gravitational and magnetic fields of the planet itself.

Number 2 - Infinite Tsukuyomi

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Infinite Tsukuyomi is the most overhyped ability in Naruto. Not by fans but by characters in the Naruto. It's a while point of the entire show. This is what they were building up to since the beginning. This is to Naruto what Infinity War is to MCU. The one who possessed the power of combined Tailed Beast Chakra, God Tree and both Rinnegan Eyes gets close to the Moon, the third eye on the forehead called Rinne Sharingan will open, and reflect itself off of the Moon. When that happens, the Moon will start generating light particles which can not be avoided. Even during nigh time, when the genjutsu is activated, it will appear as it is morning. This light can not be extinguished no matter what you do, and it will defy the laws of physics and can be projected anywhere, completely erasing the concept of shadows, preventing anyone from escaping it just by lying somewhere where light usually would not be able to that point due to current position of the Moon. Once the light reaches any living being, they will be put in an eternal genjutsu that they will never be able to breach away from no matter what they or the others might try to do. Once they are put in a genjutsu, they will spend an eternity in coma like state, with their minds being inside a dream world, where they live the most idealistic and perfect life they could want, where all of their wishes can be fulfilled. Not even Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto with Truth Seeking Orbs, Uzumaki Chakra, Sage Mode, Kurama Chakra Mode and connection with all of the Tailed Beasts couldn't resist this genjutsu. Literally the only way to resist this ability is to have Rinnegan.

Number 1 - Expansive Truth-Seeking Orb

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The Truth Seeking Orbs are literally ninjutsu at it's best. Composed of all five nature transformations and Yin-Yang Release. They can affect person's chakra, negative non Sage Art Ninjutsu completely, kill Reanimated beings, transmutate objects, change shape to be used offensive or defensively or any type of weapon the user imagines, discharge chakra to preform more techniques and are durable enough to no-sell 4 point blank biju bombs from Juubi. They can also be used as incredibly fast projectiles to kill an opponent, cause incredibly powerful explosions or even enhance one's healing abilities. Kaguya was able to make one that dwarfed Mountain Ranges in size. Not even Complete Kamui enhanced by Six Paths Chakra couldn't teleport it, and would most certainly kill Naruto and Sasuke with Six Paths Chakra if they didn't seal Kaguya before that. According to Black Zetsu, it is capable of creating a new dimension completely, so this is tiers above anything we've seen in Naruto thus far. This should easily be, without a doubt, the most powerful technique in all of Naruto. Maybe you could put Infinite Tsukuyomi and Six Paths Planetary Devastation above it but I personally believe it is above those two simply because of already existing role of Naruto provided before it was used.

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So there is my list. If you disagree with the order or you think I missed some jutsu, feel free to mention them and maybe I will edit the list. You can clearly see that I did not bring up a single Post-End of Shippuden technique, and that's because I did not watch or read anything related to Naruto that takes place after the end of Shippuden. The Last, Boruto, nothing. So please avoid bringing those up and hope you enjoyed reading.

9 Comments

9 Fights/Match-ups that can go either way in my opinion

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Battle forum threads and theoretical battles are probably the most popular type of forum topic on not just Comic Vine, but arguably all Comic Book sites. Even youtube is filled with them. And of course, a lot of them are extremely controversial. Some would say they are close but character A/B wins, some would say it's one sided but still interesting, and some would say it's a stomp.

However, there are not a lot of instances (at least based on my personal experience) when people agree that it can go either way. Sure, you will see people say that an argument can be made for both sides, but even then, most of them would still say that one would beat the other.

After spending so much time on battle forum, I think I finally came up with multiple battles where I just can't decide who would win a majority (unless bias wins me over). In other words, fights that I honestly can say "can go either way" depending on a scenario, mindset and overall, literally how you (writer actually) wants it to end without plot/character/writer induced stupidity being a factor.

This is all my personal opinion so if you disagree with me, that's completely fine.

Disclaimers:

I did not include any characters who I'm not that knowledgeable with. I don't think I have right to judge whether the fight is close or not if I don't have at least above average knowledge on the character. For example, I was thinking of putting Elektra vs. Nightwing match-up here, but I don't really know much about Dick to judge whether he is a perfect match for Elektra or if either one of them would win in a one-sided fight.

This list is also not in any order. The order is random. This list is also not limited to Marvel vs. DC or even comic characters overall. Manga and Live Action characters are allowed as well (besides DBZ because I don't think even these types of threads are allowed with them). Another thing to keep in mind is that these match-ups did not necessarily come from Comic Vine. Some of these are matches I came up with myself.

Not that there are no Battle Forum threads with these match-ups. I'm just saying that there are barely any match-ups here that were actually inspired by Comic Vine threads themselves. I also want to inform you that there is just one match-up per character (unless we count different versions). Silver Surfer is on this list and there are two more characters who I think can be put in a fight against him that can go either way.

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Nova Prime (Richard Rider) vs. The Flash (Jay Garrick)

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Kicking this list of, it is the match-up/CaV I had with my friend HTTK a year ago, where he represented Rich and I represented Jay. It ended halfway through the debate with HTTK conceding at the end (at least that's what I think happened). Regardless, this was just a match-up that I thought was cool to look into. It wasn't one of those CaVs where we had a debate on regular Battle Forum thread and decided to prove each other wrong with a CaV. This was just a cool match-up we thought of when we wanted to debate one another.

During the actual CaV, I actually believed Jay would win solidly. But now when I think about it, Rich could win if he plays his cards right. But of these guys are not full of hax but have a lot of versatility to them. They also have their own physical advantages that can be game changers. After thinking of this fight over and over, I came to a conclusion that the winner would be decided based on how one decides to fight or end the fight. Both have counters to other one's versatility or advantage, yet those advantages or versatility can end the fight in one's favor.

Superman vs. Beta Ray Bill

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I know this is one extremely predictable match-up but I honestly can see this go either way. I know this is essentially just a different version of Superman vs. Thor fight, but Thor suffers from so called "Slowdinson" syndrome. Beta Ray Bill does not. He has zero lowshowings, and while I think his fight with Silver Surfer doesn't actually count, Bill actually does have two or three impressive speed feats that should allow him to keep up with Superman.

And unlike Thor, Bill actually uses the versatility of his hammer, Stormbreaker, more effectively and more often than Thor (I know that has more to do with Thor's much wider amount of appearances and that Bill is not actually more impressive than Thor, but by Battle Forum standards, that still works in Bill's favor). This versatility can prove me troublesome for Superman due to AoE attacks and huge range of wide attacks that not only have enough damage output to hurt Superman, but can be fatal due to Clark's lack of actual defense against magic.

Bill also preformed some feats Thor never actually preformed, like one-shotting planetoids, beating up Heralds until they fall down and even tanking point blank planet destruction multiple times. He also healed before Thor when they stalemated in a fight so it could be argued that Bill is more durable. But of course, you can argue that Superman would beat Bill mostly due to same reasons as to why he would beat Thor.

Iron Man (regular) vs. Minato (Edo KCM2)

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Originally I was gonna put KCM2 + Sage Mode Naruto here (the one who fought Juubito with Cursed Seal/Sage Mode Susanoo Sasuke), but then I realized that he lacks quantifiable feats. The only way to judge how powerful he is is to somehow combine KCM2 feats with Sage Mode feats, and while it is a logical thing to do, it would be a new level of absurd even compared to ABC logic and scaling. So I decided to put KCM2 Edo Minato here, because not only does he have more quanifiable feats, but it is, at least in my opinion, much easier to scale him off of KCM Naruto and Minato's regular self than KCM2 Sage Naruto with KCM2 Naruto and Sage Mode Naruto.

Regardless, combining teleportation speed with KCM amp, and combining Iron Man's already existing speed feats with RT. Node and Extremis, I would say they are on the same level of speed, with Minato having the edge due to teleportation combat style and KCM2 and not just 1, but Tony having way better perception speed. While Tony is in my opinion physically superior, Biju bombs combined with Flying Thunder God versatility and arguably the most broken jutsu in the Manga, shadow clones, can prove to be too much for Tony (this is assuming we are not counting Buster Armors, non standard upgrades, Stealth suits and Ghost Tech). Minato is also smart himself so I can see him overwhelming Tony at the end.

Then again, Tony does have some gadgets that can one-shot, but given that Minato has Sage Mode himself, and is Edo, meaning he has infinite chakra, immortality, healing abilities and pain immunity, I find this to be one pretty interesting and debatable match-up.

Silver Surfer (Norrin Radd) vs. Cyborg Superman (Hank Henshaw)

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Ironically, these two fought to a standstill in canon crossover comic, with neither damaging or getting the best of the other. So you might as well say, "if that's so, giving Hank rings makes it one-sided". However, Surfer does have the ability to drain the energy from the rings. On the other hand, Hank is extremely powerful energy manipulator himself, and there was a point where he had such a good control over Green Lantern power battery that he drained Lantern rings from Guardians themselves. So he could arguably counter Surfer's draining. But again, there were a lot of powers Surfer didn't use during their crossover fight, so he might be able to win if he uses them here. But just like before, Hank could counter most of them with his own versatility and immortality. I don't think it's even debatable that he would wreck Surfer in physical fight, but Surfer is more destructive and has more hax. At the end of the day, it depends on whether Henshaw can counter all of Surfer's hax and what hax Surfer will use before Henshaw himself attacks him. Which overall I find to be debatable.

Deadpool (Reynolds/Fox) vs. Captain America (MCU)

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Ok, this is the one I thought of for quite some time. I actually tried writing a blog about this fight to explain who could possibly win, but I'm not gonna get into details here. I talked to Gregg about this fight for a short time in a PM and he made some pretty valid points for Captain America, which really made me realize that there are a lot more factors to this fight than I originally thought when I believed that Deadpool would win. And while I still don't necessarily think Wade would lose, I find the conclusion of this fight to be based off of one's own personal interpretation of these character's skill set and factors that would be more effective than the other. There is no objective way (IMO) to say who would actually win here since neither of them are that well established of Martial Artists as characters from TV Shows, and yet both have impressive showing of raw skill that can be effective against the other, or just their raw superhuman abilities and not just skill and gear.

I think this fight needs more thought to be put into it, so I won't spend more time talking about the details just now.

Thanos vs. Amazo

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Thanos and Amazo are some of the most powerful Teambuster tier characters in history of comics. Thanos fought a ton of Marvel powerhouses, and while Amazo mostly sticks with JLA, his showings are equally impressive. I think you all know what Thanos is capable of (incalculable strength, invulnerability, immortality, regeneration, energy projection and manipulation, telepathy, force fields...). Amazo on the other hand has a lot more powers than Thanos. He actually has every single power, ability and even gear of every standard member of JLA, even other members like Firestorm.

He also has regeneration and to avoid OOC arguments, more recent version of Amazo has sort of A.I. analysis system or something weird that allows him to analyse any sort of attack or move his opponent will use against him and not only counter it before it affects him, but he knows the best way to deal with it with all the powers he has, like telepathy on Firestorm before he uses transmutation, or using Firestorm's powers on Superman to affect him with Red Sun Radiation. He can also combine Superman's striking power with Flash's ability to gain "infinite" mass and was confirmed to have not only strength of JLA members, but their combined strength.

In other words, all of hax Thanos has and his intelligence will be almost useless against Amazo. Amazo will be able to counter all of it, see it coming and find a perfect way for counter attack. The thing is, Thanos is still physically superior to Amazo. Besides Flash's speed, Thanos still has better quantifiable strength feats and Thanos' durability is pretty absurd. And despite all the hax Amazo has, it is possible for Thanos to counter it himself, like telepathy (due to his own resistance and psionic abilities), transmutation (like he did before) or even internal attacks (with regeneration and pain tolerance).

So the biggest problem for Thanos is Amazo's ability to spam regular attacks as well as combine the strength of JLA users with Flash's speed both to increase the effectiveness due to extra mass and the ability to punch Thanos over and over. Not only will it be more painful than most strikes Thanos tanked, but he will get hit by hundreds of those before he can react. Then again, once you look at all those fights Thanos had with Odin, Galactus, Kosmos, Cosmic Cube, Tyrant, Walker and what not, you could say he is capable of tanking all of that and eventually getting the best of Amazo with his energy attacks.

In other words, there are too many factors here and I just can't come up with a solid answer as to who would win at the end and I think this is one of the closest fights I could think of. It's pretty debatable in my opinion.

Naruto vs. Supergirl

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This is probably one fight that I won't spend a lot of time talking about because, while both of these characters are the ones who I think I know a lot about given that I read/watched a lot of their material, I never payed THAT much attention to either their powers and feats, and I don't have any of them saved anywhere. So what I would be saying here is based off of memory. Everybody knows Supergirl. Whether you want to call her much weaker Superman with no super intelligence, or stronger Wonder Woman with no gear and as much experience, Kara does have a lot of impressive standalone feats that put her on mid high tier level without scalings with her way superior cousin (scalings I mostly find to be extremely questionable).

Unlike some battles here, while I can actually argue over who would win (so this is not "too close to call" IMO), I can still see both scenarios play it, and it mostly depends on factors like mindset, knowledge and tactics. If Naruto decides to fight Kara head-on like he did against Madara after saving Guy, or when he blitzed Toneri, he would probably lose due to Kara's superior flying combat showing and strength (I honestly don't think Kara is faster than Naruto, tho Naruto relies on scaling sometimes and that can apply to Kara as well so I think it is fair to say that they are on the same level in that category). However, if he pulls out his KCM avatar mode, enters Six Paths Mode and uses shadow clones along with his long ranged attacks and versatility, he would probably win.

Hulk/Green Scar (Bruce Banner) vs. Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)

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This is another fight between Marvel and a DC high tier, both being green, powerful, popular, iconic and core members of each Universe's respective teams. While you will hear me say "Hal Jordan wins" more times than not, that may be my bias towards the character. Objectively speaking, I think this can go either way (just like everything else on this thread LOL). Hal does not use speed that often but even that won't be a problem for the Hulk. Hal probably has superior damage output but Hulk is way harder to put down due to superior durability and healing factor on top of it. Hulk also has the means to overpower Hal but Hal can also overwhelm him with range and versatility, combining constructs with energy attacks. There is also always a possibility of him failing and Hulk getting healed, pissed off and therefor stronger, which will decrease Hal's chance at winning.

Captain America vs. Batman

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Ironically this is pretty much identical to the fight above in every way sans tier, this one being street tier. Just like with the fight above, I may say Captain America wins, but he's my favorite fictional character so that may have something to do with it. Bruce is definitely more skilled out of the two but Rogers is physically superior. Although unlike other fights, I think this one is a bit too complex and complicated for me to talk about here on this blog. So for the sake of not creating walls of text or putting a second blog on this one, I'll leave this one for later.

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So that's my list. Feel free to share your thoughts on it as well as bringing up match-ups that you yourself consider to be either too close call, or can go either way. Thanks for reading and I hope you enjoyed it.

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