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Ultimate Iron Man Respect Thread

As a fan of Iron Man (Tony Stark) that I am, something most people who know me are aware of, I am not actually a big a fan of how writers of the Ultimate Universe handled him. But, considering the fact that I read all of his appearances, and that he was one character who our good old Cadence/SFW had no interest in making a respect thread for (which is kinda irrelevant here because unfortunately he got perma banned, bruh), I was like, why not? Complete the collection of respect threads for our Ultimate Universe characters. Enjoy.

You can read this in blog format or thread format.

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Table of Contents

  1. Introduction of Antonio "Tony" Stark (Iron Man)
  2. Strength, Striking Power & Durability
  3. Flight, Travel & Combat/Reaction Speed
  4. Force Field, Repulsors, Weaponry & Versatility
  5. Intelligence, Skills, Inventions, Perks & More
  6. Armors, Suits, Technology & Technopathy

Introduction of Antonio "Tony" Stark (Iron Man)

Yes, before you people start calling me out on spelling that incorrectly, Ultimate/Earth-1610 version of Tony Stark is actually called Antonio, not Anthony like his 616 counterpart, although he still uses nickname Tony. One of the main aspects of his character that differentiate him massively from his mainstream counterpart is the fact that he has a twin brother who's older than him for like 20 minutes, Doctor Gregory Stark. The two had pretty messed up relationship, where they would compete with one another over everything. Whatever Tony does or accomplishes, Gregory would try to replicate but in more impressive way. While Stark was genius in his own right, Gregory was mostly considered to be smarter, and rightfully so.

Eventually Tony was revealed to have a brain tumor, and could possibly die at any moment. This motivated him to become a Super Hero known as Iron Man, and it was actually he who found Captain America frozen in ice, just like his 616 counterpart, although unlike his 616 counterpart, this version of Tony actively drinks alcohol, and finds amusement in being surrounded by a bunch of women being there for the sake of his entertainment only, while his 616 counterpart mostly had relationships with one woman at the time and was incredibly respectful despite the fact that he was a playboy. Ultimate Tony also spent time traveling around the Multiverse with Reed Richards, eventually even finding a head of his dead counterpart.

Tony eventually became a member of the Ultimates, Ultimate version of the Avengers. However, here, it was organized by Nick Fury and it worked under S.H.I.E.L.D.'s belt. It was also composed of Thor, Captain America, Giant Man, Wasp, Hawkeye and Black Widow. This team stopped Hulk's rampage and the Chitauri invasion, but it stopped working for S.H.I.E.L.D. after it was revealed that Black Widow was a Russian spy who helped divide the Ultimates, kill Hawkeye's family and lead team of Liberators to destroy American democratic government, with the help of Loki, who just wanted to screw with his brother Thor. This also let to failed execution of the Bruce Banner, who was revealed to be the Hulk by Black Widow.

While Liberators were stopped, Black Widow's betrayal, plus her death caused by Hawkeye who wanted to take revenge for his wife and kids, left Tony temporary heartbroken because he was actually in love with her. When Carol Danvers tried to put Avengers under S.H.I.E.L.D.'s belt yet again when she herself became a director, Tony was in a grudge with her, while at the same time spending a lot of time sleeping with her despite the fact that, apparently, neither one of them liked each other. Due to his armor's properties, Magneto was able to make Iron Man partially responsible for Wolverine's death during the Ultimatum wave, which put Tony into a state of depression for few weeks. Ultimates temporary worked for S.H.I.E.L.D. afterwards.

After Ultimatum wave, Tony met the daughter of Justin Hammer called Justine, who he cured of disease she received from experiments her father put her through. Eventually Tony fell in love with her during their Armor Wars adventures, when Tony was dealing with an unknown threat with powerful tech trying to steal his own. Eventually this was revealed to be Tony's long believed to be dead grandfather, who wanted to use Tony's tech for himself as well as upgrade his own suit which keeps him alive. This made him come into a possession of a box Tony kept hidden, thinking it is a piece of tech he needed, and forcing Tony to open it. It was revealed to be a head of deceased alternate version of Tony Stark Tony and Reed found at some point.

While his counterpart was dead, his helmet and technology was not. It had a specific ability to "kill" technology around it. Not shut it down, but completely destroyed. Luckily this Tony doesn't require technology to win. Yeah, "lucky he". Because the tech destroyed armors that all the Armors Tony's grandfather and his soldiers wore to keep them alive, killing them, as well as destroying nanites in Justine's body Tony injected her with in order to prevent her from dying because of her powers, killing her as well, leaving Tony in state of depression and removing the opportunity of being with someone he truly cared about yet again. Sometime afterwards, he was able to recover of the economic crisis he was in Post-Ultimatum.

Without being part of S.H.I.E.L.D. anymore, Nick Fury hired Gregory Stark to be a part of his secret Avengers black ops program, being the main man and scientist who worked on everything after Fury himself. Together the team did a lot of good work that the Ultimates simply couldn't due to the circumstances of working for Danvers at the time. At least they did until Gregory divided S.H.I.E.L.D. and black ops team into thinking their respective leaders, Carol and Fury, were traitors, in order to take the organization for himself in order to achieve his own goals, but also to prove his superiority to Tony yet again. His plan failed however when Tony outsmarted his brother for the first time, shutting down his harness, allowing Thor to struck him down.

Thor went overboard however, and killed Tony's older brother instead of knocking him out, which surprised Tony. After the fight between Ultimates and Avengers, the latter team became an official black ops unit related to the S.H.I.E.L.D., and Ultimates, along with Tony, started working for S.H.I.E.L.D. yet again, under the wing of Nick Fury, who was given back his position as the director by Danvers, who failed as the director of S.H.I.E.L.D. in more ways than one, including failing to train Peter Parker (Spider-man) to become a better and more capable hero, who actually literally took a bullet for Captain America in his place because of massacre between two teams Danvers failed to prevent as director of S.H.I.E.L.D., which eventually caused Peter's death.

Tony kept being a member of the Ultimates under the command of Nick Fury, and later Monica Chang, Fury's ex wife, second Black Widow and latest director of S.H.I.E.L.D. Tony was actually a key player in stopping Reed Richards, who went mad, became evil and took the name of the Maker. Tony outsmarted Reed and used his tumor (who became sentient and took the form of separate consciousness called "Anthony", with look and behavior of kid Tony, who possessed technopathic abilities) to control Maker's city and main computer network to sabotage all of his operations, allowing the team to imprison him.

For Steve Rogers on the other hand, the overwhelming guilt over being partially responsible for Peter's death made him quit the Ultimates and give up the title of Captain America and his S.H.I.E.L.D., but he was convinced to come back by Nick Fury when his country needed him. When the America was in crisis, Ultimates were trying to stabilize the situations and help people in their own ways, Tony's being the idea of Iron Patriot, a new identity he adopted and used for some time, even making a new suit with American colors, although he came back to being Iron man shortly after. Eventually Tony was killed by the Maker, who removed Tony's tumor, Anthony, from him, figuring out that it was actually an Infinity Gem all along.

However, Tony's consciousness survived, allowing him to take control of parts of Maker's technology to create a pilot-less Iron Man armor under Tony's control, destroy Maker's support, outsmart him yet again, take control of his tech and shut it down, use it to give Thor back his God Like powers, heal his own dead body and transport his consciousness back into his brain, although he lost his technopathic powers, but at least he got rid of the tumor. Unfortunately, both S.H.I.E.L.D. and the Ultimates were disbanded when Galactus from 616 Universe came to Earth, killed Captain America and required Thor to be trapped forever in Negative Zone in order to get rid of Galactus. Without Thor and Captain America, there can't be the Ultimates.

Tony eventually became a founding member of Ultimate Future Foundation, and later helped Fury, Maker and little forces they have left to face the main Marvel Universe in Secret Wars' Incursions, fight between last two remaining Marvel Universes. Ultimate Universe and everyone in it were erased, or so we believed, until it was revealed by Maker and 616 version of Miles Morales that it still exist, with both Thor and Captain America apparently being alive. The Ultimates decided to travel throughout the Multiverse and chase down the Maker.


Ultimate Iron Man's bio entry can be found in Official Handbook of the Ultimate Marvel Universe: Ultimate X-Men - The Ultimates (2005). It's incredibly outdated because it came out in 2005, but it is there. However, because of the new scan rule, I will only include the power grid.

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In case you are interested in info provided by power grids, here is official description on each class from 1-7 (quotes from the bio will be provided below):

Based on this, you can get the idea on how powerful and proficient this version of Tony is. Of course, power grids aren't the best source of info out there, but my job is to provide all the info I can find and show it to you. What you will do with it is on you so take the above as you wish.


X-Men: Dark Phoenix - Spoiler Free Movie Review

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As much as I think the majority of Fox X-Men movies range from mediocre to garbage, and despite the fact that I think even their best movies are overrated, I'm usually open-minded when it comes to X-Men movies prior to release. Regardless of my doubts and skepticism, I don't remember every coming into the theater telling myself this movie will be terrible.

Dark Phoenix is sort of a different story tho. Back when it was announced, I was optimistic at first because I expected them to redeem themselves for the atrocity that is X-Men: Last Stand, with Bryan Singer doing what he was doing with X-Men: Days of Future Past. Come back and fix the franchise or a movie while at the same time making a good movie.

I wasn't expecting DoFP level quality because Apocalypse was pretty mediocre to me, and I was hoping for a movie with similar level of quality to it. Not terrible but not good. When I heard Singer won't be the one to direct it, I was disappointed at first but still tried to keep an open mind. However, that changed when I heard of Disney buying Fox and gaining rights to X-Men movies.

The reason why is because this essentially meant that this will be the last X-Men movie. In other words, this movie had to do 3 things. 1) Adapt one of the greatest stories ever told into a movie. 2) Redeem themselves for previous failed attempt, AND 3) bring closure to 2 decades of movies all at the same time. And it was suppose to do that without Bryan Singer.

To add an insult to the wound, this movie was delayed from November 2 2018 to February and then June 2019. That's more than half a year later, and when it comes from production team like Fox which is a high budget, top tier studious, that's not a good sign. All this totally killed my optimism and any reason to be open-minded when it comes to this movie.

I actually expected it to be a really really bad movie. One that will barely have any qualities or substance, and the only reason why I was interested in it is because I wanted to see how it will compare to Last Stand. I expected it to be a better movie yet one I won't like at all.

I was wrong.


X-Men: Dark Phoenix is one of the most disappointing experiences I ever had. I don't remember the last time when I came out of the theater so amazed over how bad a movie was. And the fact that what I wanted the most out of this movie is to be better than shit that is Last Stand, that honestly says a lot. Because this is way way worse than I expected.

Is this the worst X-Men movie tho? In my opinion, no. Origins is worse. But the only reason why is because Origins actually ruins characters, those being Wolverine and Deadpool. But frankly I enjoyed Origins more. Dark Phoenix does not ruin characters because it has none to ruin. This whole team was so dull for so long, you don't even care about missed opportunities.

Actually, in my opinion, there was no opportunity here, because they decided to make Dark Phoenix right after Apocalypse. That is as bad as making BvS after MoS. That story would be X-Men's equivalent of Infinity War. It is something you need to build up. This franchise had these new versions of Scott and Jean here for one movie, a movie that wasn't even focused on them.

In some sense, it could be worse than Origins. Origins was so bad, you could laugh at it. And it actually had potential and it made you care. Dark Phoenix does not have potential due to the world it was put it. It is not so bad, it makes you laugh. You either feel bored or drained by watching it. And because it is so dull, you don't even care it is bad. Just bad.

I watched this movie with my brother and my best friend, who actually really likes X-Men movies, and some I am not that fond of, he actually likes. Well, he told me that this one is up there with Origins, just so you know. The only reason why I am not putting it below Origins is because I actually think that movie had potential, while this one is a poor cash grab.

And it fails in that too.


X-Men: Dark Phoenix's been in the theaters for almost a month now. By that time, it only made 244 million. Why is that pathetic? Because it is less than every single X-Men movie, even Origins. Quite impressive given that way more people watch movies (especially comic based movies) these days compared to early 2000s. And in case you didn't know, this movie's budget is 200 million. In other words, it's box office is almost equal to it's budget, which is just pathetic. Every other X-Men movie had box office at least 2-4 times higher than it's budget.

Rightfully so. Guys, please, don't watch this movie. At least don't go pay for it. Just don't go to the theater for this movie. It's not worth it. This movie left me with Justice League vibe. Production that tries so hard to make something big without effort or build up, while actually not trying hard at all. I haven't seen any amount of effort in this movie. To it's credit, it tries to pay homage to the story it's trying to use a source material during first like 5 minutes of the movie, but everything else is so rushed, poorly thought out or just shows obvious lack of interest.

Now, I won't blame Fox for this completely, because they had to change their plans due to new ownership from Disney. And while this movie fails as a conclusion to this 2 decade long franchise more than it fails as a movie, X-Men movie and Dark Phoenix movie, we don't know if studio originally intended to have this be the last one before they sold the rights. So, as true as it is, I won't give them a hard time for this being a pathetic excuse for a conclusion to this franchise. However, none of that excuses every other problem this movie has, which is basically all of it.

Let me tell you this right away. If you watch the trailers, you basically know everything that will happen in the movie aside from the ending. And ending is the most anti-climactic and disappointing ending I've seen in a comic book movie, ever. Again, I wasn't expecting anything even average, but this was just painful. You might ask, what did you like about the movie? Even worst of the worst have something good, right? Wrong. One thing I actually expected from this movie are cool special effects and awesome display of power. One reason why I can rewatch Apocalypse.

This movie doesn't have bad CGI when it comes to quality of CGI. However, when it comes to creativity and choices they went with for special effects, it's so disappointing and dumb. So, what I liked? Nothing honestly. I guess one 2-second long moment with Magneto using his powers in a badass way is badass, but after what we got in Apocalypse, the fact that Magneto impressed me only once (not as a Battle Forum junkie but a CBM fan) is just insulting. Characters? What characters? There are no characters here. Just plot devices on two legs walking around to finish the movie.

You might say, well, it may be a guilty pleasure movie. We still have MxAvoy and Fassbender to enjoy, right? Guys, these two were phenomenal even in mediocre movies like First Class and Apocalypse. In this one, they were not. They had no interesting scenes, no character interactions worth watching, hell, not even their acting can be noticed because they have zero material to work with to help them stand out. Everything about them was nothing but uninteresting means to an end dialogue or plot involvement which is nothing but necessary to move on with the movie.

And when they weren't doing boring stuff to move the plot forward, they would just be present in scenes that are so predictable, to the point you will actually have sentences in mind before they even say them (I actually predicted like 5 sentences). This dialogue and "motivation" (if you can even call it that way) is as generic and as predictable as ever, and it applies to all the characters. Even regular scenes are weird. This movie has so many background stuff that was just so weird and distracting to me (I won't get into details because I don't think I'll be able to explain without spoilers).


One thing I was gonna say about this movie is that, while it is one of the worst comic book movies I have ever watched, it is not technically disrespectful towards it's characters and stories. But that is not actually true. Again, I will try not to give it a hard time for being the worst closure to the franchise it could've possibly been, for reasons I explained above, but even without not giving this franchise an ending it deserves, this movie does not respect continuity.

Of course, even people who think most X-Men movies are masterpieces, have to admit that it is one of the worst franchises ever when it comes to continuity and world building. This franchise was full of contradictions, plot holes, continuity errors and confusing mistakes even from the beginning, but this one in my opinion disregards continuity and timeline more than every other Fox movie aside from Deadpool 2, and Deadpool 2 disregards it for comedy purposes so...

And I'm not just talking about contradicting actual events. I'm talking about disregarding character development. This movie in a lot of ways, completely ignores what we've seen before. Disregards everything established about the characters and literally pulls stuff out of it's ass to fit the narrative it's trying to present in order to barely make this movie receive theatrical release. Barely it was indeed, and given what's happening to New Mutants, I wouldn't be surprised if it just gets cancelled.

I honestly can't say more than I've already said without getting into spoilers but I'll tell you again, just don't pay for this movie. As much as I don't like some of the X-Men movies, I can see where they are coming from and why they like them. But with this one, I honestly can't think of anything people will like about this movie. I just can't think of anything guys.

X-Men: Dark Phoenix gets 0.5/10.


KrleAvenger's Files Update 3.0

For the sake of formatting purposes, I'm creating another one of these threads.

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KrleAvenger's List of Debates






KrleAvenger's Respect Threads

Possible future debates

I either planned on or simply agreed to CaV matches with a lot of people in the future. Most of those probably won't happen any time soon or at all, but we were already in agreement so for the sake of not forgetting anyone, I'll have the list here.

  • vs. HeirtotheKingdom
  • vs. ThorParker82
  • vs. BlackSpidey2099
  • vs. giliad
  • vs. Lubub55
  • vs. The_Red_Viper
  • vs. Cdiddyman911
  • vs. Sawed_Off_It
  • vs. Cosmicallyaware1
  • vs. HigherPower
  • vs. LanternBatman
  • vs. CreoleCudy
  • vs. VSW
  • vs. SupremeGenerations
  • vs. KingofLatveria
  • vs. BlackPantherIsb
  • vs. Defiant_Will
  • Team-up with Darth
  • Team-up with Apex_Pretador
  • Team-up with Higherpower
  • Team-up with Battle123axe
  • Team-up with EmperorThanos
  • Team-up with TheKinfing

Battle Forum Arguments

In battle forum, you will always find yourself in situations where you have to repeat something you said, whether it's about an argument, explanation or posting scans. A lot of times some of those things are pretty lengthy and you are either not interested or you don't have time to go over it again. Or you simply can't explain it as good as you could before. However, if you know where you argued on those topics, you can just copy/paste what you already said.



Top 20 Most Powerful Beings in the Marvel Cinematic Universe

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Now that the Endgame is out and this incredible Saga has been concluded, I figured why not create a top 20 strongest characters list. Before I get into the list, I just want to let you know that it was incredibly difficult for me to come up with the order. And that is because several characters have some advantages over other characters (strength, hax...) but are inferior in other categories (durability, raw power...), so it is hard to come up with a definitive order, given that there are instances when number 12 for example can lose to number 14. All these characters have different abilities, and can not simply be power scaled like Dragon Ball Z. Because of this, picks on this list will be highly inconsistent when it comes to reasons as to why they are placed there specifically. What I mean by that is, some places are decided based on who has more raw power, some are based on ABC logic, some on scaling, some on intent and logic, some on abilities and hax, some on statement, and some are based on feats only.

Because of this, keep in mind that disagreements are inevitable, and I do not necessarily disagree with anyone who says that some of my placements are inaccurate. Like I said, it is difficult to come up with definitive list, and this one is based on formula I myself came up with.

Honorable Mentions

Peter Quill Star-Lord

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Quill is more than powerful enough to be on this list, possessing similar abilities and power as his father, Ego, including immortality. The problem is however, the only time when Quill can achieve this level of power is when he's present on Ego's planet. Not only that, but his power set becomes identical to Ego's at that point. This absurd limitation, plus the fact that he is basically a clone of a character already present on this list, made me decide to just give him an honorable mention.

Kaecilius (Dark Dimension)

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Kaecilius was one of the most gifted students of the Ancient One, capable of warping matter and space even outside of Mirror Dimension, resist the effects of Time Stone and destroy shields that protect the Earth from Inter Dimensional entities. In Mirror Dimension, he is capable of bending reality to the point of rivaling and surpassing a lot of reality warpers in Marvel Comics, defying gravity and limitations of matter, controlling it almost completely. What prevents him from being on the list is the fact that, without Mirror Dimension, his reality warping skills are not as nearly as impressive, and lack of real hax and being the definition of a glass cannon does not help him either.

  • Fenris
  • Cull Obsidian

Both of these characters are pretty impressive, holding their own against the likes of Hulk and Bleeding Edge Iron Man respectively. But they lack enough concrete feats to be placed on top 20, but they are still impressive enough to receive an honorable mention.

  • Bor
  • Odin
  • Eson

Being rules of Asgard and a Celestial, it makes sense that these three are absurdly powerful characters. But we have absolutely no idea how powerful they are exactly. Both Bor and Eson are completely featless, and any source that can be used for quantifying Odin is not concrete enough to be called reliable. While Eson deserves a placement on this list due to actually destroying a planet on-screen with Power Stone, there is another character on this list with the Power Stone who has more feats and abilities seen on-screen, so I decided not to put Eson on the list.

Number #20 - Vision

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Vision's body is mostly composed of Vibranium, making him incredibly durable, capable of tanking blows from Ultron, and surviving attacks from Scarlet Witch. He is capable of flight and density manipulation, allowing him to phase through objects and people, either for transporting or offensive purposes. He is capable of cutting Ultron off from internet network, and can project an energy beam powerful enough to disintegrate Ultron Drones, destroy towers, and damage Ultron's Vibranium body. He also possesses enough strength to rip Ultron Drones apart, hold his own against Corvus Glaive while being injured, casually destroy vehicles, and stagger Ultron (albeit he used Mjolnir).

Number #19 - Ultron (Vibranium)

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Ultron's original bodies were incredibly formidable, going toe-to-toe with Iron Man and easily overpowering Captain America. Ultron's Vibranium was on a different level of strength however, casually ripping apart and destroying his previous body, going toe-to-toe with Vision, and overpowering Thor. It also provides him with massive durability. It took the combined power of Thor's Mjolnir, Iron Man's Repulsors, Vision's Infinity Stone beam and multiple strikes from Hulk to finally bring Ultron down. And he was not even destroyed. Just damaged to the point of being down for the count. Ultron is also capable of projecting lasers from his palms and can also control magnetic fields. Extremely intelligent and calculating, Ultron is capable of spreading his consciousness throughout the entire worldwide computer network, providing him with technopathy and the ability to constantly rebuild himself. As an A.I., he is far quicker and more proficient than humans, turning an entire city into a Doomsday Weapon over the course of days and is an absurdly effective multi tasker, separating his consciousness into hundreds of bodies all working at the same time while preforming complex and difficult/different tasks, with extreme effectiveness.

Number #18 - The Hulk

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The Hulk possesses immeasurable physical strength, durability and healing abilities. He fought with the likes of Thor and tanked his Mjolnir blows, overpowered Ultron in his strongest body, casually destroyed the army of Ultron Drones, fought and mostly had the upper hand against the Hulkbuster, held his own against Abomination and eventually defeated him through the combination of healing factor and usage of the environment, and killed a being as large and durable as Leviathan with a single punch without fully transforming. Hulk was also capable of no-selling high caliber bullets, tanking attacks from Chitauri for several minutes, ragdolling Loki, overpowering and almost killing Thor with his bare hands, tanking lightning punch from Fully Powered Thor, allowing Banner to survive falls from great heights, stalemating Fenris and even staggering mighty Surtur with a single attack. After the time-skip, Banner found a way to combine his intelligence with Hulk's strength, logically making him even a greater threat. Banner was capable of using Hulk's body to both survive putting the Infinity Gauntlet on AND the "snap" effect, albeit that was mostly due to his body's ability to absorb gamma radiation.

Number #17 - Iron Man (Bleeding Edge)

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Even before developing nano-technology, Iron Man's Armor was incredibly formidable, possessing strength superior to that of Super Soldiers and Dynamo Drones, anti-tank shells, steel splitting lasers, and absorption abilities potent enough to absorb Lightning from Mjolnir, using it to increase Iron Man's own strength and firepower. Tony's armors are strong enough to destroy tanks and content with the likes of Thor and the Hulk, the latter being defeated through the use of Hulkbuster (albeit it was a sucker punch). They also provide him with insane speed and maneuverability, dodging attacks from Chitauri and breaking the Sound Barrier. It is also incredibly versatile, possessing A.I. that informs him of environment, nature of opponent and danger, damage, battle status and many more, as well as providing him with auto pilot and remote control, allowing him to send armies of 40+ armors to fight for him, all with Extremis Soldier tier stats, as well as possessing several forms of weaponry. After applying nanotech to his armors, Tony became way more impressive, shape shifting his armor to create other weapons to adapt to certain situations. His armor also received self repairing abilities, and increased durability which allowed him to survive Stormbreaker and Mjolnir strikes, starship sized explosions, meteorite slams, and even attacks from Thanos and Power Stone, while also staggering Great Titan with his own blows. Aside from having repulsors potent enough to one-shot Leviathan, and absorption effective enough to channel energies of Thor, Mjolnir and Stormbreaker, Tony's recent armor allowed him to survive for few minutes after both putting the Infinity Gauntlet on and "snapping", before finally dying.

Number #16 - Ebony Maw

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Ebony Maw does not have a large power set, but one he does have is incredibly formidable, that being telekinesis. He can use that telekinesis to levitate, deflect projectiles, destroy objects, construct matter in a way where he creates other objects or certain effects (such as rock tornado or large fist) or manipulate the surroundings to aid him in battle. He is incredibly precise with his powers, defeating a sorcerer as versatile and powerful as Doctor Strange, with greatest of ease. It was also stated that he possesses power far greater than Iron Man's, the latter only beating him through tactical thinking and outside assistance, rather than actual superiority.

Number #15 - Daisy Johnson (Centipede)

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Daisy is incredibly skilled, fast and lethal SHIELD agent, operative and a spy, with sharp intelligence and tactical skills. This coupled with her Inhuman abilities to control seismic waves and manipulate vibrations, makes her one of the strongest characters in all of MCU shows. Aside from sharp reflexes and fighting skills, Daisy is incredibly creative with her powers, using them to not only project highly destructive waves that can devastate anything in their path, but also to control vibrations of the surroundings, causing earthquakes or dismantle objects, as well as completely incapacitate other opponents or even kill them, as well as creating omni-directional waves. In the realm of raw power, Daisy is capable of completely dismantling aliens on a whim, tearing though insanely durable objects, crushing bones, killing Kree Reapers (which are "superhuman" even by their standards), propel herself a mile upwards with zero effort, and cause a massive avalanche by damaging a mountain from a mile away while barely having experience with her powers. After receiving a Centipede Serum, it did not only increase her stats, but it also increased her powers. It allowed her to save herself from absurdly potent attacks from Graviton, as well as propel him upwards from the ground to higher Earth's orbit with a single short attack, despite the fact that he was immune to her powers prior. Daisy was also implied to have a power to potentially destroy the entire planet.

Number #14 - Kurse

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Kurse is basically like the Hulk, but better. He did not just overpower Thor, but he ragdolled him completely without much effort, both overpowering him and almost killing him if it wasn't for Loki's interference. After he was stabbed with a massive sword, he showed no signs of pain or discomfort, only being killed by a singularity, and even then, he was not destroyed right away, taking several seconds to do so. Aside from being way above Thor's caliber, Kurse was also capable of reflecting electrocuted Mjolnir moving at high speeds at him after Thor summoned him. And he's done so by twisting to the side using his shoulder, with barely any momentum, effort or difficulty, while also showing no signs of damage afterwards.

Number #13 - Malekith (Aether)

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Malekith possesses a strong connection with the Aether (Reality Stone) and has mastery over it. He is capable of draining other hosts and absorbing the Stone into himself, giving him the ability to bend reality, matter and space. These powers can be used to create several effects, like teleporting himself and others across wast distances and even other planes of reality, projecting spikes powerful enough to hurt Thor, deflecting strongest attacks from Thor wielding Mjolnir like they are nothing, manipulating matter around his lost limbs to replace them, ignore certain laws of physicals, control and consume matter, and even manipulating reality itself, changing the nature of all dimensions, planets, galaxies and beyond, shaping it into complete and total darkness. The reason why he is so low on the list is because he is not very creative when it comes to the use of Reality Stone, and his Universal feats can only be preformed during one specific event over millennia.

Number #12 - Captain Marvel

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Carol Danvers possesses various physical and energy based powers. She can fly in space at speeds far surpassing light, move across the planet to check the surroundings and ragdoll several Skrull Soldiers while her powers were kept under control. She is strong enough to destroy Thanos' and Kree Starships by flying through them with no damage, as well as no sell several energy attacks from Thanos' ship thanks to energy field she protects herself with when she flies. Her strength and energy attacks are powerful enough to destroy several Kree Ships and also allow Carol to hold a missile and Guardians ship, as well as briefly stalemate Thanos in strength contest, and tank his heatbutt with no damage. Danvers is also relatively skilled combatant, while also being capable of surviving in space, dodging several high speed projectiles, heal from most forms of damage, and even extend her lifespan, spending 30 years as a super hero without aging a day physically, and apparently does not need air, food, water or sleep to survive.

Number #11 - Ronan (Power Stone)

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Ronan was a Kree Accuser and great Warrior, possessing strength that rivals and potentially surpasses even that of superhumanly strong Kree Reapers. He used his strength and skill to ragdoll the likes of Drax the Destroyer, and was durable enough to hold a Power Stone for at least few seconds. His Universal weapon allows him to project powerful shockwaves that can repel or kill an opponent. Ronan was powerful enough to kill the Other with absolute ease, which according to James Gunn speaks a lot of his power due to the Other apparently being a very strong individual who is beyond even Loki. Ronan's powers reached new heights when he acquired the Power Stone. With it, Ronan was capable of destroying a big chunk of Xandar's fleet, tank a fall of Dark Aster Starship, no-sell a blast from Quill's/Rocket's weapon (which was apparently capable of destroying a Moon) and is capable of destroying thousands of planets just by touching the ground with his staff, allowing him to wipe out an entire surface with the Power Stone.

Number #10 - Thor (Full Power)

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Thor is the Asgardian God of Thunder and the most powerful God-Like entity in the MCU, surpassed only by Surtur and his sister Hela. He is powerful enough to kill entire armies of Frost Giants, Rock Monsters, Dark Elves, Chitauri, Ultron Drones, Outriders and Warriors of 9 Realms. Even without Mjolnir, Thor went toe-to-toe with the likes of Hulk, even getting the upper hand with his speed and skill while holding back, tho eventually he was overwhelmed. He was skilled enough humiliate best SHIELD Agents, beat Loki while holding back, fight the Hulk, as well as adapt in multiple forms of combat, such as use of hammers, axes, swords and bare hands. With Mjolnir, he can redirect energy, amplify the power of his strikes, create Storms, project Lightning and Tornadoes, fly and even control the trajectory of the mallet and strike hard enough to destroy the Bifrost. He bested the likes of Destroyer, Iron Man, Leviathans, Iron Legion Drones and Surtur. When he unlocked his full power, he apparently surpassed Odin, became strong enough to fight Hela, ragolled army of undead Asgardians, amplified power and versatility of his lightning, created skyscraper sized lightning, surpassed the Hulk, threw ships, moved the rings of the Nidavellir, and survived the full force of a dying Star from point blank range for several seconds. Eventually he acquired Stormbreaker, a hammer/axe with the same powers as Mjolnir (lightning projection, Storm creation, trajectory control, energy redirection, healing...) but on way greater level, allowing him to destroy starships with ease. Stormbreaker can also summon Bifrost, and provides Thor with cutting/piercing option. Stormbreaker is sharp enough to mortally wound Thanos, cut his arm off and even decapitate and kill the Great Titan.

Number #9 - Doctor Strange

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Doctor Strange is both a genius and protege, stated to be born for the mystic arts by Mordo, due to his photographic memory and mastery over the Time Stone, despite limited knowledge and nonexisting experience. This lead to Cloak of Levitation choosing him, providing him with flight, protection, or the ability to incap a foe, like Kaecillius' followers and Thanos. Strange is also skilled hand to hand combatant, holding his own against Mordro, Kaecillius and other Sorcerers, with the combination of his reflexes, magical shields and martial arts skills. His mastery over the Time Stone was so great, he was capable of accelerating or slowing down time, moving it forward and back, creating time Paradoxes, looking into all the possible futures in detail, tearing apart the fabric of time and even causing time loops. He was even capable of doing this in the Dark Dimension, a place with no time, creating a loop where Strange gets killed by Dormammu over and over, which put even the almighty entity in a position where he could not take over Earth. In the realm of Mystical Arts, Strange not only showed great knowledge of other mystical artifacts as well as skill and understanding despite extremely limited time period of studying, but was also a master of space manipulation, trapping sorcerers as powerful as Loki in pocket dimension where he was falling non stop, teleporting himself and others across several distances and dimensions, trapping people in Mirror Dimension, trapping opponents into other dimensions, as well as appearing in different places at once. He is also capable of matter and energy manipulation, casting binding spells, energy attacks, force fields, disintegrations, illusion projection, multiplying/cloning, astral projection or changing structure of matter and reality altogether. He is suppose to surpass all the Sorcerers according to the Ancient One.

Number #8 - Ancient One

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Ancient One does not have as many feats as Strange, but she possesses way more knowledge and experience, as well as actually having the title of Sorceress Supreme, which made decide to put her above Strange (at least for now). She stated she possesses so much knowledge, that if she were to reveal some of them to Strange, he would run away terrified. She is the most powerful and knowledgeable master of the mystic arts, possessing her own book collection filled with unknown rituals, spells and facts, embarrassing multiple sorcerers in hand to hand combat, projecting energy shields and attacks, harnessing energy from the Dark Dimension to extend her lifespan, reading people's minds and emotions, using telepathy and telekinesis, astral projecting herself, looking into the future (even alternate ones), possessing Cosmic Awareness (potentially), controlling energy, projecting illusions, separating people's souls from their body, trapping others in Mirror Dimension, warping reality, gravity, space and matter, besting Kaecilius, controlling space, and even wielded the Time Stone herself, meaning she does know how to use it at least to a degree.

Number #7 - Hela

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Hela was the first of Odin's children, and easily the most powerful. She led Valkyries to extinction, and destroyed entire armies. Even while weakened, she made two of her brothers look like child's play, even destroying Mjolnir with her bare hand. Hela draws strength from Asgard, allowing her to both heal and increase her power the longer she's there, making the gap between her and her brothers, that much greater. Hela is also absurdly fast, agile and skilled. She killed Warriors 3 with ease, destroyed Asgard Warships and killed every single Asgardian Warrior with ease, by herself. Hela's main offensive option are her weapons, which she can create out of nothing in form of Axe or a Sword, which she either uses in CQC or throws them like projectiles. She showcased more skill than Thor, as well as healing abilities that allow her to ignore stab wounds, while also being proficient with sorcery, allowing her to resurrect Fenris Wolf and Ancient Asgardian Soldiers (albeit she used a portion of the Eternal Flame). Even when Thor had assistance from Valkyrie and unlocked his full potential, he was still bested by his sister, who was not even dazed by his strongest lightning strikes.

Number #6 - Graviton

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General Talbot gained the ability to control gravity due to exposure to gravitonium, which he applies in ways familiar to telekinesis. He is not only capable of sensing objects and people, but can also kill humans with ease. He can tear hundreds of tons from the ground with ease, to the point of creating a tower out of nothing but the Earth he tore apart, and with enough precision to grab gravitonium from the ground and keep the "tower" in strait position. He is also precise enough to rebuild an entire ship and make it completely functional, while also being powerful enough to control it with ease, despite the fact that even parts of the ship dwarf city blocks in size, diameter and mass. Talbot claimed he was becoming the most powerful being in the Universe, not only preparing for battle against Thanos, but also being completely immune to Daisy Johnson's powers, only being affected when the latter was amped. And even then, she could not hurt him despite the fact that she launched him into orbit. Talbot only died due to extreme conditions of space. Aside from also having the ability to fly, Talbot can control gravitational fields, making others float and even absorb people and their memories. A skilled hand to hand combatant, master tactician and weapon user, Talbot is a forced to be reckoned with.

Number #5 - Scarlet Witch

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Wanda obtained her powers when her physiology was altered by the Mind Stone, providing her with various Psionic Abilities. It was later stated by Kevin Feige that her powers are magical in nature. Regardless, she was incredibly versatile and powerful from the beginning, having the ability to read minds, project illusions, manipulate emotions and even mind control people. She was also capable of projecting waves of energy that can stagger Super Soldiers, or even shockwaves that disintegrate Ultron Drones. Wanda is also capable of telekinesis, either moving objects/people or creating Force Fields, which allow her to reflect lasers, bullets and Vibranium splitting sword swipes, or hold cars, towers and Leviathan creatures. Wanda was the only being on Earth powerful enough to destroy the Mind Stone, a feat she also preformed when she reduced Vision's Vibranium body to dust while also holding off Thanos with 5 Infinity Stones, which he also used to reflect her attack yet still struggled to move towards her. When emotionally taxed, Wanda can preform absurd feats with telekinesis, not only casually tearing out Ultron's Heart by damaging his Prime Vibranium body, but also being the only character who's matched and outright overpowered Thanos, ragdolling him with her telekinesis while damaging both his armor and him, making the Great Titan desperate, forcing him to rely on his Mothership's firepower, which also made him sacrifice all of his forces. This essentially means that Wanda surpassed the Great Titan in power when the latter has no Infinity Stones.

Number #4 - Surtur (Eternal Flame)

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Surtur, like all Asgardian Mystical creatures, possesses immortality, either allowing him to live for thousands of years, or never dying at all. He commands the army of demons and possesses Pyrokinesis, and was powerful enough to give Thor a run for his money while being extremely weakened. He apparently fought Odin and even his crown alone was stated to be a formidable weapon by Loki. After he bonds himself with the Eternal Flame, he grows bigger than Mountains, and powerful enough to treat the Hulk like an ant, easily destroy the city of Asgard, topple the mountain of Asgard, ignore Hela's most powerful attacks, kill Hela, and finally, reduce Asgard planetoid to dust with a single attack. While it is debatable as to whether or not he survived the explosion, that feat alone puts him above anyone on this list (not including top 3).

Number #3 - Ego

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Ego is a Celestial who lived for Eons, and is possibly the oldest MCU character seen on the big screen. He possesses Immortality, meaning not only is he immune to aging, but can not be hurt or killed unless the "brain" part of him is destroyed, and that part of him is well hidden and protected deep inside his Celestial body, which takes the form of Earth's Moon sized planet with a humanoid face, making Ego incalculably strong and dense. He is capable of controlling his own body, allowing him the ability to terraform, which provides a lot of options in combat, such as tendril creation, telekinesis, surrounding manipulation, gravity alteration, use of rocks and stones as a weapon... He can also project himself as a human whenever he wants, which provides him with greater maneuverability and speed, as well as total pain immunity and ability to heal even with no atoms left to compose himself. Ego is also capable of telepathy/mind control, enhanced senses, superhuman strength, matter manipulation (to the point of giving humans Brain Tumor from light years away), energy control and projection, as well as Cosmic Awareness. With the assistance of another half Celestial, Ego is capable of activating the plants he created and implanted in other planets, allowing himself to turn thousands of planets across galaxies into extension of himself, essentially becoming everything (by planet standards).

Number #2 - Dormammu

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Dormammu is a cosmic magical entity who conquers planets, realities and potentially entire Universes. He is capable of consuming the Earth altogether if it weren't for magical spells from all the Masters of the Mystic arts protecting it. He is capable of bending space, increasing other people's mystical powers and providing them with ability to manipulate reality and matter as well as extend their life span, transform and telekinetically manipulate his servants, and is apparently immortal, existing beyond time and being capable of fighting for eternity. Dormammu is capable of manipulating his own Dark Dimension, making his own body the extension of dimension itself which gives him multiple offensive options, like physical attacks, energy blasts (powerful enough to kill Doctor Strange), spikes, matter manipulation... Due to the fact that his physical body is an extension of his own Dimension and that he mostly exists as an energy, it is very likely that Dormammu can't be killed.

Number #1 - Thanos (Infinity Gauntlet)

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Thanos was referred to as the most powerful being in the Universe by Korath, even without the Stones. With incomplete Gauntlet, he was stated to be completely unbeatable by Tony Stark, and according to Doctor Strange, out of 14,000,605 possible futures, there was only one where Thanos loses, which was only the case due to Strange seeing the future, forcing the events to play out the way he wanted. Even without wanting to kill them, Thanos completely overwhelmed the likes of Doctor Strange, Spider-man, Iron Man and Guardians of the Galaxy. Even without the Stones, he manhandled Hulk and Thor, team composed of Captain America with Mjolnir, Thor with Stormbreaker and Iron Man, only being matched by Captain Marvel, who he still one shotted via Power Stone. He was capable of using the Stones to destroy a Moon, create a vortex/Black Hole, negate Strange's spells and even wipe out 50% of the population of the entire Universe. He also stated that he can use the Stones to destroy the entire Universe completely, and create a new one, with new life forms shaped the way he sees fit. Such a feat is beyond anyone who has ever appeared in the Marvel Cinematic Universe thus far (even Dormammu), which should make Thanos the most powerful being in the MCU.


That's my list. Hope you enjoyed. Let me know if I missed anyone. Keep in mind that this is just my personal opinion, and I'm not trying to sell this as a definitive list.


Eight characters that can not or should not be used in VS Battles

Two months ago, I posted a blog about nine most overrated characters on Vine per media. However, it wasn't made to really rant about something. It was mostly there for entertainment purposes given the fact that it did not focus on top 9 overrated characters in fiction, but nine characters from their own form of media who are more overrated than any other from the former's verse (i.e. Kratos for video games, Thor for MCU, Superboy Prime for DC...).

This time, I want to make a similar list, in sense that I will go with the same "one character per media/verse" rule (for further details, read the intro of the blog above), but instead of focusing on characters that are overrated, I will instead list characters who can not be used in VS battles match-ups. Either due to the fact that they are too obscured and almost featless, too broken, too inconsistent in some way or the other.

Now, again, keep in mind that these are not THE TOP 8 characters who can not be used, due to the fact that I am limiting only one per media/universe. Actual top 8 may include more Marvel characters. Or more video game characters. When it comes to what universes and forms of media I'll be mentioning, you can skim through the previous blog and see for yourself. Also, while the order of the previous list was based around what verses I was using, this order will be in correlation to the actual list. Meaning, I will actually rank these characters based on which one fits the category of "unusable" ones more than the previous one. It might be a flawed way to go with due to the fact that I am not making top 10 for one form of media, meaning this should not really be in order, but hey, it is my list and I can do what I want with it.

Note that I will not have a DCEU entry here, because I simply could not find a DCEU character that fits the category. I guess Zeus could work but he was never even shown on screen so no reason to bring him up. On the other hand, I could not find a Manga character for the previous blog, while this one will include a Manga character, so it evens it out. Well, mostly. This number is lower because I could not find a movie or video game character that fits the description either, but I was able to find another source for an entry to make it top 8 instead of top 7.

What all that out of the way, lets get into it. Enjoy.

Number #8 - Amon from Avatar: LoK (Cartoons)

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Amon is a pretty abnormal entry on this list due to the fact that we actually know exactly what he is capable of. It is just that his abilities do not fit into the universe he is put in at all. Amon's blood bending, is broken. There is no way to counter it. It does not matter how strong you are, be it physically or as a bender. You will not be able to resist his blood bending. Not only did Amon master this technique (easily the most powerful form of bending in the verse) when he was a teenager, he also proved to be capable of easily controlling multiple targets at once, without even using hand gestures. This essentially allows him to either incapacitate an opponent with ease, tear them apart and move them around Darth Vader style, pummel them or, even take their bending abilities away, giving him instant win. And not even master water benders can counter this due to how powerful Amon is.

Amon is capable of using blood bending without the full Moon, and not only used it on other anomalies like his brother, but also resisted blood bending himself with no hand gestures. This is not even something Katara can do because she does require full Moon, and it is possible that Amon even surpassed his father, the same guy who while being handcuffed and without the aid of the full Moon, was able to incapacitate an entire court room with it, even Aang in his prime, meaning that even master level water bending won't be enough to counter this ability. The only way to have a proper match up against this guy is to restrict his blood bending, and even without it, Amon is still kinda absurd. Not only did he tank both a direct air burst from Korra and lightning from Mako (former launched him into the water and the latter is an attack that can completely incapacitate and even kill a target), but he was able to create a massive and thick water tornado with ease and contain it for several seconds. And he has done so on a whim after being hit with a powerful attack and temporarily knocked out in the water.

Meaning that even his water bending surpassed that of some of top tiers in the verse. In the realm of Martial Arts, Amon showed enough agility, dexterity, skill and proficiency with Chi Blocking (Avatar Verse's nerve strikes) to outright humiliate other benders in single combat despite the fact that they had distance advantage, and he did not even rely on his bending abilities. In other words, even if you restrict his most powerful asset, Amon is still more than capable of embarrassing some of the best fighters in the verse, and he can even cause hell based on water bending alone, something he never used in combat. And with blood bending, he is practically unbeatable. In other words, there is no proper match up for this guy unless you either increase the number of opponents by a huge margin, or you restrict his strongest asset, both of which are broken. And even then, he can deal with a lot of opponents without them. On the other hand, the only characters superior to him are also the ones who would stomp him in a fight, like Spirits or Avatar state.

At the end of the day, Amon is one of those extremely imbalanced fighters, where he will either absolutely dominate an opponent, or be dominated. The reason why he is so low on the list? That's because he is only unusable in the Avatar universe. If you pit him against a character from another verse who can have a set of abilities that would make an interesting discussion, it can be a good fight. It is minimal but it still exists. While being unusable in your own verse is absurd, it is still possible to find a match for this guy. However, same can not be said for other entries on this list.

Number #7 - The Beyonders (Marvel Comics)

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The Beyonders are kinda paradoxical characters, in sense that we know what they can do both feat wise and hierarchy wise, but they are way too influenced by the plot to make any solid case for their actual status. They Beyonders are Omnipotent. In a way. It has been established that they are actually Omnipotent as a race. And given the fact that it took only 3 of them to kill all the Celestials, all the Abstract Entities and the Living Tribunal itself, all at the same time, with absolute ease at that, puts them at absolute top of the list of Marvel Hierarchy.

At least at first glance. While Beyonders were loosely mentioned here and there way back before Hickman's Time Runs Out was launched, the implication is that they should be in some way or the other, comparable to Pre-Retcon Beyonder and Owen Reece in some way or the other. And their feats as narrated by Hank Pym makes this pretty apparent. However, the Beyonders suffer from shit ton of inconsistency. Not only two of them were killed by pretty low tier characters such as Abyss and Ex Nihilo, but were also taken down by Star Brand.

While the latter is not necessarily a bad thing due to the fact that he had to commit suicide to do so, it kinda questions their ability to do, well, anything they want. On top of that, the Beyonders were effectively killed by the bomb created by Doctor Doom. While we can't technically use this against them because it is impossible to quantify the potency of every Owen Reece in the Multiverse, it is super weird that they got killed by something like that, due to the fact that the powers Owen Reece possesses comes from their own dimension.

We have no idea how to compare current Owen Reece to Pre-Retcon Owen Reece, and therefor, we have no idea how to compare the Beyonders to original Beyonder from original Secret Wars. Aside from that, it has been sort of hinted that the Beyonders are not capable of traveling through time. Which is dumb and weird for entities of such high status among the hierarchy and should be a crippling weakness that can be exploited by tons of characters they shit stomped on panel, as well as Cosmic Cubes themselves possessing time manipulating powers.

At least HOTU Thanos was overwhelmed by something completely unexplainable. One can argue that all of these inconsistencies are simply plot devices for Hickman to deal with such a powerful characters to move the plot forward, but again, these inconsistencies are way to drastic for us to have an objective view of Beyonders' power, making them almost unusable in versus match up, and even if one finds a way to use them, they will have an extremely hard time quantifying them.

Number #6 - Music Meister (Arrowverse)

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Music Meister is on this list for a very different reason compared to other two entries. While he is far from inconsistent and far from broken, Music Meister's power set functions in a way where we don't know who he can be pitted against, and that is mostly due to the fact that this guy has zero combat related feats. CW's interpretation of Music Meister is not human. Instead, he is some sort of extra dimensional entity which apparently resides from a world beyond human comprehension.

This hints at the fact that he is some sort of Abstract level entity, but he has no showings or even clear cut accolades to back it up. At least Marvel Cosmic entities all have a Power Hierarchy and explanation of their purpose and function which helps us determine how they compare to other characters. This guy has none of it. All he has are few handy perks here and there, but when you look at them, they range from abilities that make no sense, to abilities without clear limit.

We know he can hypnotize you. But we don't know if he can do this to multiple people at once and if eye contact is necessary or not. We know he knows things he should not know. But we don't know if this is a byproduct of Cosmic Awareness, absurdly powerful senses, telepathy, some form of device or simply outside influence. We know he can react to the Flash, but we don't know how fast the speedster moved when he attacked him, making the feat unquantifiable.

We know he can kill people he hypnotized, but we don't know if he can choose whether this happens or not, or if it depends on the characters themselves being put in a scenario he created. The fact that he himself said he can not reverse his... "spell", could mean that his powers have some really weird limitations, and given he fact that both Iris and Mon-El were able to save Kara and Barry just because they <loved them>, makes the entire showing kinda useless.

We know he can steal powers, but we don't know how he does that, how much time it takes to do so, and what are the mechanics and limitations. We know he can be KO'd, but we don't know if he let himself be defeated by Wally, Cisco and J'onn or not. We know he can teleport. But we don't know if applications of that ability are useful or effective in combat.

All of his powers are extremely weird and lack real explanation and limits. Therefor, it is almost impossible to say what he can and can not do, especially because he never participated in a serious fight.

Number #5 - Indra & Ashura from Naruto (Manga)

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Oh my God, where do I even begin with these guys. I was originally gonna put Hamura on this list, but due to more frequent use of these guys on the battle forum, I decided to replace their uncle with sons of Hagoromo. The main problem with Indra and Ashura is the fact that they have no appearances what so ever. They never had any story revolved around the two of them, and their canon appearances in the Manga are limited to 2-3 shots during the reference, mentions, and showcase of their spirit form next to Naruto and Sasuke. While these guys are connected to a huge chunk of material from Naruto that can be used to speculate how powerful they are, the level of power they have is still based on nothing but that. Speculation. Obito claims that Indra possessed powerful eyes and Yin Release.

Ok, fair enough. But we have no idea what applications related to Yin Release were used by Indra in a way that is effective in combat. We know he has the Mangekyo Sharingan and Perfect Susanoo, but we don't know how to compare it to regular Madara's Perfect Susanoo and Six Paths Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo. We know Ashura has incredibly powerful stamina and Yang Release. But again, we have no idea how that is relevant. Is his stamina and strength comparable to someone like Naruto before Six Paths? Or is it more like Hashirama's? While Madara, Hashirama, Naruto and Sasuke are mostly so powerful because they are the reincarnations of the two brothers, as you can see, I already compared them to the four and we have no idea how they compare.

Are they stronger than Six Paths duo? Are they weaker than non Six Paths Naruto and Sasuke? Are they comparable to Madara and Hashirama? Do they go in between some versions and the other ones? We honestly can't say. While Indra using the Perfect Susanoo without spare eyes is impressive, we don't know if this is a byproduct of superior chakra cost and stamina compared to other Uchiha without EMS, or if his eyes are simply more powerful. We know Ashura possesses Fox Kurama like Avatar similar to Naruto, but again, we can not compare it to Naruto because Naruto's Avatar is Kurama himself, and Ashura is not a host. And speculating that it is equal to or stronger than Naruto's Clone Combined Kurama who stalemated Indra's Arrow Sasuke is, again, just a speculation.

We know Ashura possesses multiple Truth Seeking Orb like balls around his avatar, but we can't say those are Truth Seeking Orbs because 1) the number does not match any other Six Paths Sage Mode user, 2) they are too large, and 3) even if they are, we do not know how they compare to Madara's and Naruto's, since other non Six Paths users like Toneri possessed TSOs and they were not as nearly as impressive as the ones Juubi Host has. Of course, Ashura and Indra do have feats in their filler arc, but again, we can not use them because filler is not canon. And even if we decide to use them, it won't solve anything because Ashura did not use his Fox Avatar like he was shown in canon appearance, and was overwhelmed until other Ninshu pupils amped him.

Either Ashura has gotten better, or Indra has gotten worse. We honestly can't say.

Number #4 - Golden Superman (DC Comics)

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Not having any feats, but still having multiple sources to at least speculate in some form or the other over how powerful one character is, is one thing. However, not paying attention to the details or outright making stuff up is the other. And this leads us to our Number 4, that being Golden Superman, Superman Prime, Superman One Million, whatever you are gonna call him. While this guy could easily make it to my "overrated characters of the verse" list from 2 months ago, I think he fits into this category way better because he honestly has nothing.

This Superman... is featless. He is completely featless. Not only is he completely featless, but there is no bio or any hint over how powerful this guy is. The only thing this guy has ever done on panel is kill Solaris, and this only happened after Solaris fought and got overpowered and hurt by the likes of Kyle Rayner, Kal Kent and two JLA teams, which makes the feat completely unqauntifiable and completely useless. That is all this guy has, and everything else you will see on the internet is based on nothing but disinformation or confusion.

The ONLY reason why this guy is not higher on the list, is because we actually do know he is just Post-Crisis/New Earth version of Superman but still alive in the future. Not only does this mean that all of his feats apply to this Superman, but it also means that he is capable of surpassing his physical capabilities to absurd degree. However, this leads us to another problem. We have absolutely no idea how big of an amp 15.000 years in the Sun is. Did it amp him to Kal Kent's level? Is he strong enough to beat the likes of Thanos and Gog, or even Odin now?

We honestly don't know. And we can't scale him off of Post-Crisis Superman's Sundipp because it will be almost impossible to quantify new feats and compare them to regular ones, because actual limit and complete and objective level of feats he preformed while being sundipped, are also unknown. We can assumeon what level he should operate, but we will never be able to find a proper match for him.

Number #3 - Tulak Hord (Star Wars)

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Ok, being broken, inconsistent, featless, impractical or just relying on speculation, is all fine and dandy if you at least have some feats (like Music Meister or the Beyonders), or possessing at least some source to draw from when it comes to your power (Golden Superman and Indra/Ashura). Tulak Hord on the other hand, is the embodiment of super obscured outright featless and completely unknown.

This Sith Lord suffers mostly from the same problems Indra and Ashura do. Tulak Hord is dead. There is not a single story that focuses on the time period when he was alive. And the funniest part is, we didn't even know what he looked like until years afterwards. And just like the Naruto brothers, all sources of info that hints at how powerful he is revolve around statements.

While statements are perfectly fine, claims supporting Tulak Hord are extremely vague and far from clear cut. At least Mace Windu was outright stated to be second only to Yoda and better than everyone in the order, during the period that was explored in a detailed way and Jedi of the time showcasing their skill and power, making such claims quantifiable.

Tulak Hord was stated to be the legendary lightsaber duelist and undefeated master of the blade superior to everyone in his era. And while that is all fine and dandy, reputation without a substance does not tell us anything. What I mean by that is, we have absolutely no idea how good the duelists of his era were, meaning it is impossible to compare him to characters with feats.

Even if swordsmen of his era were introduced, it does not matter because we still wouldn't know what fighting style Tulak Hord relied on. We wouldn't know how effective his tactics were, and what kind of approach he used. On top of that, both his force abilities and stats are also clouded in mystery, making the outcome of the fight still unknown even if we knew he would win in a sword fight.

While it is true that Darth Traya stated that skill and abilities of Tulak Hord were so great, that comparing him to fighters of the KOTOR era would be like comparing masters to children playing with toys, it once again does not matter because skill can be countered with superior stats, intelligence and tactical approach. Or even Force Abilities.

Besides that, Traya made rather inaccurate statements before, some of which were contradicted even by writers themselves, making her entire interpretation of this rather questionable. It also would not make a lot of sense because Tulak Hord lived before 5600 BBY, and lightsaber technique and combat went through massive development and changes since then.

Number #2 - Odin (Marvel Cinematic Universe)

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This honestly makes me sad because I wanted to see Odin do something in MCU, but it all ended up being nothing. The reason why I put Odin above Tulak Hord, is because Tulak Hord has at least some statements that can lead you to believe that writers had high views on him. While same can be said for Odin, it would be based on facts presented in all the wrong ways. Odin's feats are limited to beating Laufey, depowering Thor, putting a spell on Mjolnir, resisting Loki's spell and trapping Hela. While all those feats sound cool and all, none of them are really practical.

Depowering Thor does not mean he is capable of depowering anyone else, due to the fact that Thor's powers come from the fact that he is Odin's son, so he should be a special case. Putting a "worthy" enchantment on Mjolnir can also attribute to the fact that Mjolnir is an Asgardian weapon, but even without assuming that's so, such ability has no combat applications. Resisting Loki's spell is irrelevant because we do not know how much time and effort it took to resist it, and on top of that, applications, use and actual abilities of the spell are completely unknown.

While he did defeat Laufey, the fact that the fight cost him his eye despite the fact that Gungnir showed the ability to turn Laufey into dust with a singe blast (while being used by weaker character, Loki), either means that Odin is not that great of a combatant, or he was sucker punched, which also means that his senses (ones that helped him sense Thor's death and things around him while being in Odinsleep) are not that effective in combat. While lack of context prevents us from using this against him, we can not use it to support him either.

Loki's, Thor's and Bor's use of Gungnir against Frost Giants, Hela's swords and Dark Elves does showcase the damage output and durability of the weapon, but again, we have no idea what tactics Odin himself employed in CQC encounters. In the realm of raw power and hax, while Odin's blast shattered Thor's armor, it is still unquantifiable because it did not damage Thor himself. Tapping into Dark Energies to create a pseudo Bifrost to teleport Thor while weakening him has barely any relevance in combat, and we can't use Odin Force feats from Thor game because it is not canon.

One-shotting fodder and preventing Thor and Loki from falling are useless feats, and we can't say Odin can replicate Loki's spell feats due to the fact that his knowledge and talent comes from Frigga. The only feat that remotely showcases Odin's power was his ability to trap Hela. While this kinda speaks of his power simply due to the fact that Hela could not escape until Odin died, meaning she is capable of teleportation and that Odin himself actively held here there, imprisoning someone and keeping them there and matching them in power and ability are two very different things.

Just because Odin somehow banished her and forced her to stay there does not mean he is more powerful or stronger than Hela, especially because we have no idea how such a feat was preformed. Did it happen mid combat? Was Hela unable to resist it? Did Odin rely on some artifacts? Was he required a lot of time to cast a spell? Was Hela taken by surprise? Did he struggle to hold her? Was she tricked or forced? We honestly can't say. While it was stated that Odin defeated Surtur, we have no idea if this was Surtur Thor easily killed, or if it was the one bonded with Eternal Flame.

The fact that Odin outright stated that fully powered Thor was more powerful than him, the same Thor who was still way weaker than Hela, makes the other two <feats> questionable. Even if this was just Odin motivating Thor and not actually stating facts, lack of information is still present. No on screen fights. No hand to hand combat feats. No known in character approach. No clear cut hax or resistance feats. No damage output feats. No context provided for existing feats. No abilities relevant in combat, and no clear limitations.

Number #1 - The Creator(s) (All of Fiction)

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And yes, I know I am totally breaking my own rule here. Not only because I am listing multiple characters, but because I am including all of fiction, instead of one verse or form of media. However, I do not think there is a better example of unusable characters than this entry.

When I say creators, I am talking about Gods. And not any Gods or God like beings, but fictional representations of ultimate and supreme being in any reality and the source of everything and anything in existence and beyond. God/Creator who can do anything.

Not only are these characters barely used even in those instances when they are showcased, but all of them lack feats that make any sort of sense. Both the Presence and The One Above All appeared in person in their respective Universes, and they did not do anything.

This essentially means that the material used to gauge their power and performance is basically non existing. While lack of on panel/screen feats is not something debaters can not deal with, the actual problem is the nature of these characters itself and not their showings.

The so called "creators" are objectively and undoubtedly all knowing and power. They are established as possessing true and non hyperbolic Omnipotence, without actual God Like powers, but actual unlimited and unquestionable ability to do anything and everything they please. This essentially means that it is impossible for them to not win or lose 99.999999% of the fights.

Which is boring and completely pointless. The only argument one can make is how one's showcase of Omnipotence is better, which is why TOAA and the Presence are so frequently pitted against each other. But at that point, it is not even a battle discussion anymore, but one's overall perspective and concept of Omnipotence and how a stalemate translates to their powers.

The only arguments I have seen that hold at least some weight in discussions with these characters (aside from obvious "create a rock you can't lift" mental gymnastics bullshit you see everywhere), is using examples that hint that some of them are not actually Omnipotent. I.E. Presence's inferiority statement or TOAA's lack of knowledge and influence.

But again, those are just either extremely vague statements that do not mean anything, or obvious cherry picked instances that contradict the obvious outlook the writers and the lore has, and "beyond Omnipotent" argument reaches a new level of mental gymnastics and reaching. At the end of the day, God(s)/Creator(s) and beings with Omnipotence are truly unusable in VS battles.


That's my list. Hopefully you enjoyed, and let me know if I missed some characters.


Top 10 Darth Vader Moments

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Darth Vader is the first thing that pops to one's mind when someone mentions Star Wars. He is probably the most popular character of the franchise, and definitely most iconic. He is possibly the greatest villain in history of fiction, although that is completely subjective. Despite popular opinion, Vader is not my favorite Star Wars character. Hell he is not even my favorite villain of the franchise. That being said, I do think he is one of, if not the best written characters in the Saga, having various characteristics we did not have a chance to see in movies, mostly him being badass and powerful. I will share my 10 favorite Darth Vader moments, using Movies, EU and Canon as sources. These are not moments I think are the best. Just the ones I personally like the most.

Number #10 - Big Reveal (Movies)

"I am your father."

While this moment is barely impactful to us personally, since everybody heard of this line before even memorizing all the names for main characters, it is an incredibly important moment to Luke and Vader himself. It defines who Vader is. He served the Emperor for 2 decades, but after realizing he has a son, he asked him to join him and rule the galaxy with him by overthrowing Palpatine. While this moment is expanded upon even further in Novels and Magazines/Books, and focuses on Vader's feelings even more, the movie itself turns the tides completely, and will be the key part of the final installment of the franchise. Besides, it is one of the most iconic lines in history of cinema.

Number #9 - Retrieving Coruscant (EU/Legends)

"At the nexus of hyperspace routes, we came within an eyeblink of completely missing Tarkin's transport. Had he been in a faster vessel, or had his starship's navicomputer stored more coordinates... had he ignored our hail... we could have never warned him, never joined our crew with his... and never taken Gentis by surprise. By my estimates, Gentis had us outnumbered at least eight by one. But Gentis did not have a Sith Lord in his ranks."

Months after establishing the Empire, Palpatine already took control of the Galaxy, and ruled it with an iron fist. But he was ruthless. Not caring for his own soldiers either. Countless died after the Empire was established, good soldiers. Some of their leaders, such as Headmaster of Imperial Officer Academy, Gentis, who decided to start a coup to prevent deaths of his students, and establish himself as the new Emperor. Palpatine almost died due to virus spread through his palace, but he was saved by Vader and one of Gentis' students, Laurita Tohm, who joined Vader instead. After fleeing with the Emperor, Vader discovered a secret prison the Jedi kept worst of the worst criminals in, with no trial. Vader slaughtered most of them, or allowing them to slaughter the others, until the strongest survived. Vader along with Officer Tohm, orchestrated a plan to use these criminals as their allies for their freedom in exchange, and end the coup before the Empire falls apart. After Grand Moff Tarkin visited Coruscant in his ship, he was already captured by Gentis' men. Little did he know that Tarkin met with Vader before the confrontation, and had him, Tohm and criminals, inside the ship, who got out, and started slaughtering Gentis' men, until the Emperor killed the Headmaster personally with Force Lightning.

What makes this moment so great to me is that it shows how Vader was actually important to the Empire for reasons outside of just killing Jedi. He personally saved the Emperor, kept his wounded body hidden, found soldiers for himself, and took everything back in a manner of a day or two. Aside from that, the scene itself is spectacular, showing not only Vader's capability, but his massive power as well, blowing an entire army away with Force Shockwave, even creating an effect that appears to be a form of pseudo Force Lightning, or kinetite technique. Tohm narrating the scene and Agustin Alessio's amazing art just make it even better.

Number #8 - Realization (Disney Canon)

"... Skywalker... ..."

After the destruction of the Death Star, Vader's reputation dropped drastically. He lost Emperor's respect, and the command over the fleet was taken away from him, just like a big part of his resources. Aside from rebuilding everything he lost, he wanted to find the boy who blew up their super weapon. He sent Bobba Fett who capture the boy, but he escaped. Bobba did not have much to say aside from boy's name, "Skywalker". After Bobba left, Vader's anger started to radiate, cracking glass with his mere presence. He started to remember his dead wife, his time as a Jedi, Palpatine's words after he ended up being imprisoned in his armor, and her pregnancy. He realized what happened. He was lied to. He demanded to meet the Emperor. But Vader was smart. He knew his place. He just told the Emperor he understands their relationship now. He came back, remembering his wife, what he has done, and the boy he encountered. Vader realizes he has a son. As he calms down, he looks at Imperial Star Destroyers flying in space, claiming his son will be his. How "it will ALL be his".

Number #7 - Visions of the Past (EU/Legends)

"Yes. I killed you. I killed you. I killed Anakin. I killed the child you carried. And I hate myself for all that I have done."

Anakin Skywalker is dead. He died that day when he lost his limbs and was defeated by Obi-Wan Kenobi. But he did not disappear completely. His memories and feelings, still live in this monster called Darth Vader. When he was in his meditation chamber, and was actually in a position to take his mask off, which he hated wearing, he was able to sleep. He dreamed of alternate life where he killed Palpatine, Padme gave birth to their son, and he became the leader of the Jedi order. Those dreams were too much for him to handle, and he would often either scream in agony after waking up, or think of that life after going through absurdly painful process of attaching his armor to his crippled body, trying to keep himself sane.

Vader was eventually tasked to capture Admiral Garoche Tarkin, who turned off from the Empire due to crimes he has committed against world Atoa, and fell in love with it's world's High Priestess, Saro. Vader failed to capture Garoche however, and was instead captured himself, with most of his armor and life support system being damaged. Eventually, he saw visions of his dead wife Padme coming close to him, telling him how broken he is. But Vader said how Anakin is gone. He is only what his master made him. This response "made" Padme leave, which forced Vader to scream for her coming back, allowing himself to break the restrains that held him. After killing the guards and leaving the room, he saw Padme yet again, but this time, in form of a corpse.

She told him how she did not die, but he killed her. This broke Vader completely, making him fall to his knees with tear rolling down his eye, admitting everything he has done, and stating how he hates himself for what he has done. Padme's ghost told him that she forgives him, this time calling him "Vader" instead of "Anakin", and disappearing. Eventually it was realized that Saro was the one who made Vader see those illusions, as she can look into one's heart. Vader demanded to bring her back, but she could not. Vader was inraged, but Saro begged him not to kill her and Garoche. If not for them, then for her unborn child. Saro was pregnant. This realization completely tore Vader apart. He could have a chance for family too, but he destroyed it.

Using the Force, Vader destroyed the entire building, crashing it down on all 3 of them, trying to commit suicide. He was buried under the debris for days, until he woke up in front of Palpatine, and droids attaching his repaired armor to him. Of course he survived. His hatred for himself kept him alive. The Dark Side is all he needs. Palpatine told him there is more work to be done, with Vader kneeling before him, asking what he most do next. This shows what kind of character Vader is, or at least was during early years as a Sith Lord. He was intimidating and all powerful to everyone. But underneath that metal of horror, was a broken man, who lost everything. Life full of guilt. All he was left with, was his master. One who complimented him, but will always see him as servant, and slave.

Number #6 - Battle on Mustafar (Movies)

"I have failed you Anakin... I have failed you."

While this is more of a Anakin Skywalker moment, he had the title of the Sith Lord and name "Lord Vader" by the time this fight took place, so it should still count. I think what makes this moment so great to me is Obi-Wan's addition more than anything. Anakin will not listen to reason. He is too far deep into this. This is not what he truly wanted, but he had to do this to save his wife. And that same wife of his, apparently betrayed him, making all of this almost worthless. And this is all due to his master's involvement. All he is driven by is his rage and lust for power, things and define Sith Lords. As he matches Anakin's immense power with skill, Obi-Wan looks at his former apprentice with disappointment and pity. But more towards himself than Anakin. He tells him how he failed him, and knows this is the end, yet still tries to talk to him due to desperation. But there is no coming back. As Obi-Wan takes the advantage of the fight, Anakin's blind rage gets the best of him, crippling him for life. As Obi-Wan shares his disappointments, Anakin just screams about how he hates his master, until motivations for those screams become searing pain of his skin, muscles and lungs burning, and event that will truly turn Anakin into Vader. More machine than a man.

Number #5 - "My Destiny... my own..." (Disney Canon)

"He had no father. Unnatural. The Chosen One."

After building his own castle on Mustafar, Vader encountered a Spirit of Ancient Sith Lord Momin, who helped Vader to preform a ritual which will allow him to travel back in time and save his wife. However, Momin betrayed Vader, and used the ritual to bring his body back. After being bested in a lightsaber duel by Momin, Vader killed him with the Force, and continued the ritual for himself in a way it was apparently suppose to be preformed, walking into a door.

As he entered, his physical body collapsed, only his spirit entering, taking the form of humanoid like red and black figure composed of blood and darkness with no face besides 2 white holes for eyes, with only arms and hands from knees and elbows down being white and blue in color. As he walks in inside this dimension with purple dark sky, he hears quotes from several people who were close to him. Even seeing several events from his life that already happened or will happen to him.

Eventually he encounters Jedi Order. The ones who promises him so much, yet took everything away from him. Vader pulled two dark blades similar to lightsabers, slaughtering the entire Order. As he walks inside the temple, he sees his two father figures, Palpatine and Obi-Wan, fighting. Palpatine kills Obi-Wan and welcomes Vader, but Vader kills even Palpatine himself with Force Lightning. Coming out to the balcony, he sees Padme, now in his Jedi Knight Anakin form.

He tells her how he can save her now, but her eyes turn black and voice becomes identical to Vader's, and she tells him that Anakin Skywalker is dead, before throwing herself off the balcony. As Anakin shouts in panic, now with Sith eyes, Padme's face changes to creepy smile corrupted by Dark Side traits, as she chokes herself with her bare hands, until getting vaporized. Vader, now in his demonic form again, screams in pain, agony and sadness.

Now seeing himself in his castle, nothing surrounds him but hell. Vaporized surface covered in lava. Clouded sky with lightning. Only darkness and pain. As he looks to the side, he sees a beam of white and blue energy hitting the ground, and from that beam, a human male figure shows up, completely covered in light, wearing a jacket of sorts. The figure pulls out a lightsaber and ignites it, which creates a flash of light that hits Vader, forcing him to wake up.

Number #4 - Anakin No More (Movies)

"Live, Lord Vader. Live, my apprentice. Live."

This is another epic moment in movies in my opinion. And it is kinda speaks for itself. It is the moment where Anakin truly turns into Darth Vader. His broken body repaired by life support systems and robotics. His reaction as they are putting the mask on, symbolism of him rising as Padme dies, the music, everything about this moment is great. He was manipulated in doing what Palpatine wanted, and now his body is corrupted. But there is still that glimmer of light in him, which Palpatine will crush by telling him how he killed his wife himself. As he hears those words, he starts crushing the surroundings with the Force, be it droids or walls. He breaks free of his restrains with his now superhuman strength, and in extremely clumsy manner, walks forward. While he screams in agony, his master smiles, as he has his apprentice back. I like the fact that Vader is clumsy in his suit at first. It shows how he became more of a machine, and it also makes no sense to find comfort in it right away. This moment would probably be higher on the list. However, given alternate version I heard existed for it, plus the fact that it has that dumb "noooo" in the end, made me put it lower.

Number #3 - Cylo shuts Vader down (Disney Canon)

"Anakin... You don't need to go on. It can be over. You know you don't want to leave. Stay."

Vader was precise to the Emperor, whether he wanted to admit it or not. He needed him to survive. He turned to finest of scientists to save his apprentice's life. One of those great minds was Doctor Cylo, who personally built Vader's armor and life support system. He continued to serve the Empire for 2 decades, until he eventually betrayed it. Vader was tasked to kill Cylo, but the moment he met him, he realized that Cylo had a device capable of completely shutting down both his armor and it's life support system. He made Vader his armor. He was never a treat to Cylo. He could turn him off whenever he wanted. But he wanted to do it in person, to see what truly came out of that operating table. Was it a machine or a man? Now he knows it is the former.

As his life slips away, Vader sees himself on Mustafar with Obi-Wan. Seconds before burning, without his limbs. However, here, it is different. Here, Anakin tells Obi-Wan that he is a coward and should have killed him. Obi-Wan grabbed his crippled body, threw it into lava, and asked if this would have been better. He came out of lava in his armor, replying with "yes". He killed Obi-Wan just like he did before, and is met with his Jedi self, Anakin Skywalker. He defeated him in a duel and left him to burn on Mustafar. During the next moment, he saw himself in his armor again, chained to operating table. His pregnant wife Padme comes to him, and tells him to stay with her. Vader replies with calm "no", but she convinces him that he does not need to move on. Everything can stop.

As Cylo looks at Vader's turned off body, Vader, still chained to his operating table, Force Chokes his wife, saying "no" again, and Cylo starts seeing few sudden moves. Vader continues to choke Padme, saying: "Anakin Skywalker is dead. I killed him", and breaks the chains of his operating table. Cylo sees Vader moving, and asks how is that possible, since he is still turned off, until being completely shocked to see him getting up completely, taking the lightsaber, and killing Cylo, saying how nothing is impossible for the Force. Aside from being impressive display of power, rage and will, literally wishing himself back to life and moving while being shut down, this shows how Vader grew as a character in between Episode 3 of Prequels, and Episode 4 of original trilogy.

He lived the life of guilt and suffering. Constant agony and pain. But eventually he reached his prime. He stopped caring for anyone. He kept his hatred for Obi-Wan and himself, but only his past self now. He moved on from guilt, and no longer wants to see his wife again. She is irrelevant to him. Anakin is no more. There is only this monster. Speaking of monsters...

Number #2 - "Those Cold Eyes" (EU/Legends)

"Is there any ounce of humanity left in that dark machine? I still ask myself that. I honestly don't know. I hope not. Because over the course of that next hour... I saw things... Images that still visit me in the dark. I heard things. Cries that still wake me from a deep sleep. I pray no human being is capable of what Lord Vader did that day."

This story is not about Vader. It is about Clone Trooper Hock Malsuum, who almost died during the Clone Wars, developing hatred for the Jedi due to forgetting him. When Empire was established, he joined and became a Stormtropper. His skills and bravery, made Vader take notice, and eventually develop respect for the man. After multiple actions of the battle field, he became a commander, and earned Vader's trust. This made Hock feel good about himself, given that he respected Lord Vader more than anyone he ever knew. They started to work together to take down the separatist of world Ostor, but Hock was unfortunately shot down. To his surprise, he woke up in hospital of his enemies, who took care of his wounds. One of the patience gave him some of his clothes, and as Hock encountered leaders of Ostor, he told them to just surrender.

They told him they are not trying to win. All they want is to take down as many as they can, while also inspire others. Those words partially meant to Hock, but he was still royal to the Empire. He cut down their defenses, allowing the Empire to move forward. Afterwards, Hock engaged in H2H combat with Kaddak, another former Clone Tropper who worked with separatists. After killing him, Vader helped Hock get up, showing his respect for him, and they moved towards the war zone. Hock described it as making people and place itself bare recognizable. As the battle field became more silent, he commented about how he hopes there is no humanity left in Vader, as things he has done that day, screams and cries he made Hock hear, are things that he hoped could not be caused by a human. As he started following Vader, the only trail he could find were corpses.

Even a kid, who was innocent and barely had 7 years, just stood there looking at Vader, until he got cut down. Hock entered in a base, seeing countless armless civilians killed, as well as Ostor leaders. He turned around and saw Vader, who barely noticed him, and just continued to move forward, with no glimmer of remorse. Just silence. As both of them opened door to another room, it was hospital room Hock was in. Full of crippled, sick, broken, tired, wounded, old people, women and children. Hock told them that their army and leaders are dead. They should just accept defeat and their new leaders. But these men, women and children, with no means to even move, some of them having no legs and only one arm, stood up to Vader and Hock. One with no limbs barely making himself look like he is in standing position. They were determined to not give up.

There was a moment of complete silence, until Vader raised his lightsaber, telling them: "Then follow your leaders into oblivion", striking down and killing those people. Hock started screaming like a madman, telling Vader to stop. He did not stop. He continued, striking down more and more, with Hock shouting like his lungs were about to explode. After shouting again, Vader stopped. He stood there. Silent. With no glimmer of emotion. No remorse. No humanity. Nothing but those gold dark eyes. He looked at Hock, but he barely even took notice. Hock remembered that he said something else. He told Vader something. But he can't remember what. He asked himself what were Vader's thoughts. Was he thinking of Hock's reaction? Or was he just thinking who he will strike next? Hock looked at him with sadness in his eyes, throwing down his blaster, and giving up, leaving.

He realized, that his respect, was misplaced.

Number #1 - Redemption (Movies)

"Your thoughts betray you father. I feel the good in you."

It may seem kinda predictable and maybe I am looking at this more objectively, like this is actually most important moment instead of something that should be one's favorite, but I guess in this case, that goes hand in hand with me. This is where Vader's journey ends. He was a broken man who had nothing left. He was his master's slave. His hatred for himself prevent him from finding pleasure, or even dying, even when he wanted to. In his prime, he was completely dead inside, not caring for anyone. Even starting to make himself believe that he and Anakin were different people.

When he met his son however, he felt the light spark within him, and while his goals were selfish and evil, he finally could live his life outside the Emperor, even attempting to overthrow him. When his son rejected him, Vader obeyed his master once again, embracing the Dark Side completely. But his son's presence and actions made him feel conflict. When Luke finally moved away from Emperor's grasp, defeated Vader saw his son getting tortured and almost killed by his master. Vader killed the Emperor to save the only person who's left that cared about him, and returned as Anakin Skywalker.

While comics, databooks and novels get into details about Vader's conflict as well, which makes it even more complex and interesting, the movie gives it enough justice by itself in my opinion. Palpatine's narrow minded approach and rage, Vader's conflict seen on screen due to his physical actions, Luke's screams, lightning covering the room, all of it seemed very well made. It concluded the story of this once heroic, broken, evil and tragic character, and turned the face of the franchise itself, his son, into a hero he was meant to be, proving that even the darkest can be redeemed.


Here it is. That is my list. Some parts were more concise than the others but a lot of them were pretty self explanatory and a lot of people were familiar with them if we are talking about the movie ones. You may notice how I did not provide an explanation as to why I like some of those picks, like number 2 or 5, but that is because I think one of them speaks for itself, and the other is symbolic, I'll just let you interpret it the way you want. Hopefully you found this entertaining.


Nine Overrated Fictional Characters (per Media/Universe)

While I did make a thread about the most overrated comic characters a year and a half ago, it was somewhat inaccurate and it sounded too much like a rant-like blog, at least more than I wanted it to be. However here I will do something different. I decided to include 1- forms of media or fictional Universes, pick the one who I think is the most overrated character from that universe/media and put them on this list, in no particular order.

Now, I was a bit unfair when it comes to this list because when it comes to Marvel and DC, I included one for those two, plus some of their non comic universes (which you will see). However, when it comes to movie or video game characters, I simply included one for each category instead of simply including multiple for each game or movie universe (Jason Bourne, Dante, Kratos...).

This might not seem fair, but I am more of a comic expert and there are simply too many video games and movie characters for me to include every Universe and character for each. The list would be absurdly long and plus, I'm too ignorant to comment there. This was originally gonna have 10 characters, but I did not include any Manga character due to my lack of knowledge.


This list is not meant to rant about how overrated these characters are or to complain about them. Nor is it asking for these threads to be banned, and it is not meant to antagonize users either. Hell I barely even debated against characters included on this list. This list's goal is not even to "debunk" statements that apparently overrate these characters. This is just an idea I had in mind and it's only purpose is for me to share my experience and views, plus do something more interesting by including one character for each form of media or universe.

Also keep in mind that if some of my claims on this thread sound hostile, they are not. I was 100% chill while writing this blog, it is just that the topic requires blunt statements. If some of this sounds provoking, I am sorry, but trust me when I say that I am just sharing my personal opinion. I am not trying to start a rant. We good? Good. With that out of the way, lets get to it.


Number 1 - Storm (Marvel Comics)

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I really did not want to put Storm on this list, even less have her as first option on this list. That said, I can't think of a better option for Marvel's character. If you had any experience with her Battle Forum threads, you would know what I'm talking about. Not only is she one of the most, if not the most long lasting character who fits the category of "overrated", something a lot of debaters on this forum complained about, but her supporters probably have some of the most questionable opinions on her out of everyone on this list, since almost everyone on this list has at least some leg to stand on to explain the hype, highballing or misconception about him/her, while with Ororo, I honestly do not understand where this is coming from.

Ignoring the fact that a lot of her stats like speed and durability are incredibly over exaggerated, a lot of arguments I have seen supporting Ororo were not even based off of some scan taken out of context, but strait up disinformation and mental gymnastics, such as her being completely immune to any form of lightning despite the fact that she was taken out on-panel by her own lightning, or the fact that her energy manipulation is put on levels it has no business being on. The worst part however is the fact that she is constantly pitted against fighters she has no business fighting against, such as high tiers like Thor, Hulk, Superman and so on. And on top of it, those threads are some of the most post-filled ones on this site, full of arguments supporting Ororo.

The main argument used by her supporters is frying synapses tactic, which apparently bypasses durability and can instantly one-shot everyone despite having absolutely no feats to prove that is the case. This argument not only completely ignores how the power works, but also ignores the fact that Ororo's consistency of using it, is worse than Superman's willingness to search for a Black Hole in space to BFR someone into it. Mental gymnastics do not really make her better either, as most arguments I have seen that try to counter people who bring up the fact that her powers failed multiple times or that she was defeated by way weaker people, they simply say how it does not count because she did not use her other powers. Irony being that not even those powers would help her if she used them.

Number 2 - Superboy Prime (DC Comics)

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Contrary to what some people may believe, I actually try to give Prime the benefit of the doubt whenever I talk about him. I do acknowledge the fact that he is incredibly powerful. However, the level of power he is put on is far from accurate one. While it is true that he broke Hal Jordan's arm casually and was moving planets at FTL speeds casually, making him one of the strongest characters out there, most other categories he has are lacking, specifically speed.

You will often hear speed being argued as the reason as to why Prime wins. And that makes sense given he is a bloodlusted Kryptonian. But here is the problem. Prime has no speed feats. None. He has no quantifiable showings, he has no legit showings against other characters, and he never used any moves that remotely showcase super speed. No dodging and most importantly, no blitzes. I have never seen Prime blitz anyone. He is a tank who brawls and nothing else.

You will often see arguments for Prime facing the Flashes, but I do not understand this argument. This might actually surprise you but, every single time Prime faced a speedster, he could not do anything to them. There is always an argument about how Flash Family barely defeated him but if you look at the fight, nobody struggled with Prime because he was fast. They just struggled to push him backwards. But every single speedster he faced, from Jenni Ognats, to Jay Garrick, to Bart Allen, to Wally West, blitzed him successfully and he could not react to them or tag them, while they were able to do so.

I saw arguments about how Prime is a tanky guy and prefers to tank instead of dodge and while that argument seems like poor excuse to me, it can be used. The main problem is, even if we disregard the instances when he got blitzed, Prime has no showings against speedsters that suggest he is comparable to any of them. And even if he does, he never uses that so called speed. I have never seen a character who is so full of confident and often seen arguments that just do not work like this before.

While I mentioned that his strength is impressive, his striking power is a bit to be desired tho. He lacks quantifiable striking power feats, and against other characters, it is incredibly difficult to quantify it because most of them are successful in tanking his punches, with damage, but they can still keep going. The only character he put down besides Sodam Yat was Earth 2 Superman, and he did it after a long fight of pummeling and still lost (albeit he was fighting 2 Supermen but one of them was affected by Kryptonite). This is not here to make Prime look less impressive but lack of concrete evidence about how strong he is makes it extremely difficult to quantify him.

We know he is stronger than Superman and more durable but not much else. He has Heat Vision that can one shot and bust through Superman yes, but he has no speed feats and his striking power is nothing short of unquantifiable. He has feats of tanking Universe busting attacks but honestly, I am not sure why people take that seriously when he was hurt by way less and it can be argued he was not even hit by the thing. And seeing him get pitted against the likes of Odin, Doctor Strange, King Thor, Galactus... really makes me feel confident in putting him on this list.

Number 3 - Hemsworth Thor (Marvel Cinematic Universe)

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I was originally gonna put Boseman's Black Panther on this list but I heard so many people telling me how Thor is worse, I just had to change it to him. A LOT of Live Action characters are incredibly overrated. When it comes to Thor, I did not see a lot of unreasonable claims for him Pre-Infinity War movie release. I disagreed with some views on him but even those seemed rather understandable. Then Infinity War came out and oh my God, it was a great moment for Thor. Really gave him respect he deserved. Unfortunately, it caused a lot of misconceptions about the character here.

Everybody is aware of his Star level feat. Whether people want to say it is a Neutron Star, White Dwarf, regular Star, fictional Star or whatever, I don't think it is reasonable to assume that is accurate portrayal of the character's power and consistency. In-Universe, it is definitely badass and speaks volumes of his abilities. But based on technicality and consistency, that is not Thor they gave us. He was constantly hurt, staggered and put down by characters and things way below that level, and it would be unreasonable to just say "they just scale off of his Star feat".

Aside from consistency, my main problem is that nature, appearance, function and statements of/about the Star, do not fit any description about real life types of Celestial bodies we are aware of. While writer's intent is pretty clear, from technical perspective, we have no idea what this Star actually is, and we are not aware of how it works or what it's potency is. It is like it has one characteristic for each type of a Star each, but nothing more. Plus, it also seems to be like some people are forgetting that Thor was about to die, and only survived so long because he pushed himself hard enough.

Not really practical in combat. The other reason why I think Thor should be on this list is because of Stormbreaker Infinity Gauntlet Blast deflection feat (that's amountful). Even from showing's perspective itself and the way people use it, it does not make sense. Some say it is planet-Multi Planetary level because Power Gem alone can destroy planet's surface, Power Gem and Space Gem together can casually tear an entire Moon apart, and adding 4 Gems on top of it should make it way more powerful (which makes sense) and scaling those feats off of entire gauntlet, off of Stormbreaker casually overpowering it, makes people say it is Planet-Planet+ level.

Some say it is Universal because the snap of the Gauntlet with all of the gems erased half a life in the entire universe, which logically includes powerful beings from billions of billions of light years away. The problem with these two arguments is that the implications and use of them are not the same. Thanos did not destroy a Moon, erased half a Universe or destroy planet's surface with a blast. He either used a snap to cause a chain reaction/reality warp/whatever, or simply spread the energy of the Gem throughout to bust planetoids. Focused attacks do not have the same potency, as evident by the fact that they were tanked and blocked by people who obviously have no planet to Universal level durability, even with Power Gem. This was seen with both Thanos and Ronan.

Another problem is that that feat is practically irrelevant because the producers confirmed that Stormbreaker is not comparable to the Gems. It is just a good counter to it due to the fact that axe and gauntlet are made by the same guy and in similar way. While they were confused themselves and obviously did not provide the explanation that is good enough, they did compare it to a Death Star having a flaw which allows way weaker ships to destroy it. Basically, Stormbreaker overpowered the Gems, because the plot of the movie had to end. It was not actually stronger.

Number 4 - Cavill Superman (DC Extended Universe)

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Ehhh, where do I begin with this guy. The first thing I will say about him is that I don't think a lot of people actually pay attention to necessary details and instead just give in to the hype and go on with it. Which is perfectly fine. We all have our fanboy side. But if you want to argue, you need to pay attention to the details, and as far as I can tell, Clark's most popular feat on this forum is, practically non existing. Argument I see from his supporters is how he was moving so quickly, he made Wonder Woman, another incredibly fast character, look like a statue.

While it is true that he was moving faster relative to her, the main problem with this argument is that Diana was not in control of her own movement when this happened. During that short scene when Clark had a super speed fight with Barry and perception of the world was different, Diana was in a state where she was overpowered by Superman and thrown to the side. In other words, she was not in a state where she could not be outspeeded because she was not even moving. Clark threw her and since he is way stronger, she could not do anything about it until she just stops flying.

In truth, the only thing Clark statued was her thrown body, which honestly is not particularly impressive given that those can easily be tracked down by human eyes, and one thing a lot of people forget is that when perception of the world was changed to indicate super speed, Clark AND Barry were in slow motion as well. They were not moving normally. They were also slow for us viewers. They were just not as slow as anything else we were able to see, which does not mean much because nothing was fast there in the first place. I know Clark was able to keep up with the Flash but we have no idea how fast the Flash was moving, and during actual fight, Barry was dodging Clark with no difficulty, only getting tagged because he lacked skill, was afraid and was not really in good position to dodge.

Claiming Clark is faster than Diana is reasonable given that he stopped her bracelet slam from several feet away, but she had no problem tagging him, twice for that matter, and I haven't seen anything to suggest he is capable of freezing her. Besides that, I have seen so many people use his traveling speed like they are combat speed feats. Sure, Mach 400 whatever. He moved from one side of the planet to the next one. But that is not combat or reaction time speed. And granted, while he did use speed a bit more in JL movie and actually both blitzed and dodged, I am honestly tired of hearing people say how he statues or blitzes and overwhelmed because, while he does do that, he does not abuse it like he is Eobard Thawne, and was tagged multiple times no problem.

People who take his tectonic strength feat or apparent Black Hole feat seriously do not make it any better either, but those are more occasional so it would be unfair for me to give him a hard time for that but, still worth mentioning.

Number 5 - Grant Gustin Flash Barry Allen (Arrowverse)

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To be honest, Flash is probably not as nearly as bad as, well, anybody on this list, since he actually has feats to back up a lot of claims . That said, the way those feats are used is something I find to be highly inaccurate (note, I am only talking strictly about Pre-Season 5 Flash because I did not watch Season 5, but I don't think that is unfair on my part because every single thing I will say here will be based on my experience on threads that came out before Season 5 was even released).

One of my problems with arguments I see is the Flashtime ability. It is being constantly brought up as something that will fix the problem and give Barry the win. Which is flawed argument given that Barry used Flashtime only three times, one of which was on accident so it does not really matter, and the other two times weren't even used for combat. I'm not watching Season 5 but everyone I talked to told me that he never used Flashtime there, so why would I assume he would use it in combat?

While these are not as frequent as the former, they still pop up enough for me to mention them. I often see the phasing argument and I am pretty sure Barry never used phasing offensively. And he was morals off-bloodlusted multiple times and he did not use it. And to be honest, he does not use it just to phase around often enough. Despite his power and experience, Barry honestly isn't that proficient with his powers, either with special ones like phasing or just using speed overall.

I won't cherry pick instances when he was tagged by something absurd but I don't see why slower opponents can't tag them if they play it smart, because Barry honestly isn't that hard to counter unless he has prep, help or prior knowledge and experience fighting the enemy, unless the enemy in question is a different speedster. Another problem I have with Barry is striking power argument.

Sure, destroying a satellite is impressive. They are big. However, he still needed a lot of momentum and running around to preform such a feat, something that he does not do often and is not the most practical thing to do. Second, he needed help to do so, which makes the feat less impressive. But my main problem with this is that some claim that Barry actually has extinction level striking power because the threat of the satellite was extinction level.

1) We do not know what that means. It is vague term. Is it city level? Country? Continent? Surface level? I don't know about you but I highly doubt that above average satellite falling can cause Dinosaur extinction. 2) Mostly the destruction that would be caused by the satellite comes from massive amounts of momentum it gets from falling. While this would be a factor if one tries to stop it with their strength, someone who has absurd speed and does not need to stop it but blow it up with a punch, I mean, I am not sure why it does not just require regular satellite level striking power.

Sure it will cause a lot of damage but it has a lot of momentum. And you are not trying to stop it but destroy it, and you are incredibly fast. You don't need to match it's destructive capabilities. You only need to back a punch good enough destroy whatever is coming towards you.

My least favorite argument supporting CW Flash is BFR argument. A lot of people suggest he will just BFR his opponent into the Speed Force. Let me ask you, when has Barry every BFR'd anyone into the Speed Force? When has it been seen/shown/stated that he can bring somebody else into the Speed Force? When did he try or when was it suggested he should do such a thing? As far as I know, the answer for all of these questions is, none. Besides, even if he were to BFR someone, he still needs to have enough force to push someone, and against characters he is pitted against, like 616 Hulk, he would likely just hurt himself. On top of that, we do not know how much momentum and time it would take him to carry on somebody else into the Speed Force, which could open him to an attack.

Number 6 - Harry Potter (Live Action Adaptations/Movies)

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Out of all the non-Comic/Cartoon/Manga Movie/TV Show characters, I haven't seen anything more overhyped than Harry Potter. The main two problems with threads with him are, No Limit Fallacy arguments and In-Universe arguments. The first one is exactly how it seems. It is just disregarding all the feats and logic and pushing the idea of Harry's (or any character's from the universe for that matter) spell, working on anyone no matter how durable, resistant or powerful they are. And that is simply because those spells never failed to preform well unless they are facing similar spells, therefor, their limit is unknown, and instead of focusing on actual feats, we just assume they can just put everyone down.

This is the problem with logic like this because lack of evidence for something does not support the idea of the opposite being unquestionably true. That would mean that if an obscured character shows up and never fights anybody, therefor never loses, but we know has a super power, is stronger than anybody, despite never actually doing anything. Feats are not there because they are the only source of info. They are there because we need something to quantify or at least have a base of how well something can preform against something else. Not failing does not mean you can't fail. It just means you never really tested yourself against something/someone that is too much for you. When it comes to In-Universe problem, the argument is quite similar but logic behind it is the same.

Another argument used in these threads is, a said character can't resist those spells simply because he never resisted them. Sure, he resisted spells and magical attacks in his own universe, but they are not magical attacks and spells from Harry Potter, and therefor, those feats are irrelevant. Which isn't really fair because it puts a debater in a position where he has to prove something impossible, and if this logic were to apply for anything, there should never be a thing like threads where characters from different universe fight. Disregarding feats like resisting telepathy like magical attacks when one posts transmutation feats is fine, but disregarding everything even when nature of feats fits the quality necessary to resist said spell/attack, argument does not really have a leg to stand on.

Number 7 - Rick from Rick & Morty (Cartoons)

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In my opinion, prep time overall is pretty overrated. Especially when it comes from so called prep masters, geniuses who use tech. It is too circumstantial and relies too much on assumptions. Those who have no prep feats have no material to draw from. Those that do usually have shit ton of them, and it is almost impossible to make an argument that the character will rely on that specific strategy if he has no knowledge. And if he does have knowledge, it can also be very likely he will do something else, and then there is no material to draw from either. The best most valid tactic I see is for them to bring every single piece of tech they have, and to me, that is either impractical or just pointless.

Rick Sanchez suffers from these same problems. As well as another thing often seen in prep masters battles. People often confuse engineer feats and intelligence feats with actual prep feats. They assume that everything that is built can be used in prep battles, and the more impressive it is, the more effective it will be in combat. Which is not the case because, and this applies for Rick as well, a lot of inventions he creates that are absurdly impressive, are not really relevant to prep battles, because they are either impractical or it is just unreasonable to use them in prep battles. On top of that, Rick actually relied on prep countless times, and he never used tactics I heard people bring up.

I also think a lot of his feats are sometimes taken out of context, either on accident or to fit the narrative of the outcome they expect to happen despite the fact that it is rather questionable. In the realm of overall engineering skills and intelligence, Rick is extremely impressive and kind of absurd in that regard, but I do think that a lot of his feats are overrated, either because they are just not impressive compared to the ones they are pitted against, or are, again, taken out of context.

Number 8 - Kratos from God of War (Video Games)

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Kratos is incredibly controversial character. And that is simply because everyone has their own interpretation of his feats. The problem however is, his concrete and/or quantifiable feats, don't put him above mid tier level. But he is considered to be tiers above that based on statements and nothing else. The problem with these statements is, they are mostly not concrete and don't sound legit in nature, and top of it, they do not even come from developers and writers but designers. People who while are involved in the series, have nothing to do with actual story or character portrayal. And scaling Kratos does have, which mostly comes from his fights with other Gods, are not even used in a way that has a leg to stand on, because it relies on gameplay mechanics. Unless it is a quick time event or some action you can not ignore if you want to move forward with the story, which mostly is not the case, you can't really expect a valid argument due to the fact that gameplay mechanics and character's portrayal of power and skill depends entirely on player's choices, skill and methods. Based on what example you take, you can go from barely beating your opponent, to absolutely dominating him. And even then, those can not be valid sources because we also don't know what actually put an opponent down. Was it a standard weapon? Was it raw strength? Some other ability?

Scaling from the Gods also makes Kratos look like this planet level being or even Skyfather level being because those Gods are apparently on those levels too, but that is also supported by statements that are incredibly vague and not even combat related, and they also come from people who are not writers or main developers, making them even less valid. Because all other sources of info one can use for Kratos are incredibly questionable and iffy and not really hard to argue against, the best tool one can use to decide how strong Kratos is and expect a legit argument that can have a leg to stand on, are his concrete and quantifiable feats. Unfortunately for him, like I said before, those do not go above mid tier range, and those that seem more impressive are based off of nothing but scaling that is incredibly flawed. But again, he is viewed as a character who is way way more impressive than that.

Number 9 - Darth Nihilus (Star Wars)

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It's one thing to strait up overhype or wank the character, but having so many feats that are contradicted by so many sources completely disconnected from the ones that present actual feats is another. The misconception that comes from Nihilus is often times not even fan's fault, because they simply use feats from sources they actually looked into, without simply being aware of other sources or statements that either contradict or make his feats that much less impressive.

As far as I know, no abilities Nihilus has are actually overrated aside from Force Drain. But that does not mean much because Force Drain is his trump card and ability he is known for the most. Even when someone brings up Force Drain, the first thing that would pop to their minds is Nihilus. And 99% of arguments supporting Nihilus rely on Force Drain to make a point. One of his most notable feats is draining Darth Traya, a powerful Sith Lord also proficient with Force Drain.

The problem with this is, authors actually confirmed that the only reason why she was successfully drained, is because she did not expect to be drained, and was therefor, caught off guard. Avellone would also mention that it is possible to resist Force Drain, using Revan as a reference, stating he could counter it. And given the context, it is very possible that Traya could resist it to, or even being overall more proficient than Nihilus, as shown when she drained 3 Council Masters.

Another popular feat Nihilus has is draining entire planet and it's inhabitants of life, on-panel of Star Wars Tales. And this feat has the same problem as previous one. There is more to it than meets the eye, as confirmed by other sources, Nihilus does not actually drain planets and it's inhabitants of life. Instead, he uses his fleet to blast it into ruin, killing everything on it and damaging the planet. Then, he feeds off of death and destruction of the planet he caused.

While this still shows impressive levels of energy manipulation, the context makes it so much less relevant in combat because he is not draining anything from something/someone, but absorbs already dispersed energy. This level of power is solid, but it is something that can be resisted by stable minded, knowledgeable, proficient or powerful Jedi and Sith alike, and one most certainly does not need to be God tier to resist Nihilus' Force Drain. But out of context feats are not even his biggest problem.

The worst thing about Nihilus is that his Force Drain ability is overhyped to the point of being No Limit Fallacy power. Everyone assumes he can just instantly drain everyone with no difficulty, supported by statements that claim Force Drain can not be countered, statements contradicted by on-panel/screen showings and people who wrote source material themselves. It is also often disregarded that Nihilus needs a lot of energy to successfully drain an opponent, making it risky move as well.

Overall, Darth Nihilus is a Star Wars character who suffers from too much hype. He has so much implied power for his own good, yet when you look at him closely, he is mostly just a pretty formidable opponent. But would get destroyed by the likes of Luke Skywalker, Master Yoda, Darth Sidious, Emperor Vitiate and so on, and does not really compare to top tiers of the verse in any way.


That's my list. Hopefully you find it entertaining because that is what it is suppose to be, as stated above. I also hope I didn't piss anyone off with this list but if I did, my apologizes. That was not my intention. Again, this is not suppose to be a rant blog. Just me sharing my thoughts and experience on Battle Forum.


Top 10 Dragon Ball Characters

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Counting characters from Manga only. No Anime filler, games and movies that Toriyama wasn't involved in exclusives. I count original Dragon Ball series, Z and Super. No GT exclusives. I am not a huge fan of the series as I was waaaay back in a day, and frankly I forgot a lot of stuff Pre-Super, especially Dragon Ball one. But I think I remember it enough to make a decent list so, here it is.

Honorable Mention:

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Mr. Satan

Number #10 - King Kai

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King Kai seems like a perfect side character to me. He is a great combination of comedy relief as well as outside plot device. Moments when he loses or just talks to people are always entertaining to watch, yet despite all that, he is incredibly wise and is far from just a source for gags. After all, he taught Goku two powerful techniques, one of which practically killed the final main villain of the original series. He also (kinda) helped with saving the Earth from Cell, and was constantly there to help others by either informing them or giving them means to communicate, which contributed in final plots of latter 3 sagas.

Number #9 - Master Roshi

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I don't really have much to say about Master Roshi. I just think he is a great "sensei" type of character. He taught Goku the trait mark move of the series, Kamehameha wave, and his training and stuff he, Goku and Krillin went through was honestly really entertaining to see. What I also like about Roshi tho is that he is not standard wise type of sensei often seen in media, but has more freedom in terms of his personality and actions, and has sense of humor.

Number #8 - Krillin

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It's Krillin. You can't make a list without Krillin. He used to be Goku's best friend and the second main character and they both went through several adventures together. He stayed the main character but ultimately became one of less relevant ones even for that category. Still, Krillin showed to be formidable despite his lack of raw power, learning one of the coolest offensive techniques in the series, capable of killing people way way more powerful than him. I also think he had a cool arc where he just tried to be social and family type of guy, but get back to fighting anyway since it was necessarily.

Number #7 - Gohan

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Out of all the characters in Dragon Ball, Gohan is probably my favorite in terms of overall character development. He was a whiny, scared and incapable kid, and even after Piccolo took him under his wing, he was still like that. Until he realized what it means to be matured and become a fighter. However, at the end of Saiyan Saga arc and even in Namek arc, despite his huge jumps in power, he still ended up being afraid and saved by everybody else. He did become Super Saiyan eventually, but not much changed. He still stayed the same. Until Goku pushed him to his limits during their training, allowing Gohan to unlock the level of power surpassing everyone in the series up to that point. But he could only reach that level for a second and it required huge amount of rage. After taking a beating from Cell and seeing his friends slowly die by his hand, Gohan still only thought of stopping the fight so nobody has to kill anyone else. But after Android 16's speech about life ended with Cell destroying him without a second thought, Gohan finally transformed into the first SSJ2, far surpassing Cell in power. This is a great character moment because Gohan's potential was hinted multiple times throughout the series, yet he always kept being the one who is saved, and did not contribute much when he wasn't. Finally he became independent and faced the Cell alone, overpowering him while nobody else was coming close to him. And this moment that was suppose to make him grow is what caused the death of his father. His arrogance and rage led to Cell's self destruction and necessity for Goku's sacrifice, which ironically made Cell way more powerful regardless, making a very dramatic and beautiful scene where everything seems lost, even Vegeta saying he's sorry. At the end, Gohan manages to defeat Cell through the help of his father and his friends. Cell Saga was in my opinion the best saga when it comes to character arc. Why is Gohan so low on the list? I think Super ruined him honestly.

Number #6 - Piccolo

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Piccolo is also one of those Dragon Ball characters with a lot of character development. He started as just a younger version of his father. Evil, ruthless, powerful and vengeful, having no desires but to brutally murder Goku for killing King Piccolo and then taking over the world, and murdering tons of people as well. Eventually he was defeated by Goku but was spared at the end. The threat of immensely powerful Saiyans coming to Earth led to Piccolo forming an alliance with the Z fighters, training Goku's son Gohan, who had immense potential. He was cruel to him, only using him as a tool, but eventually started to care for the boy, evident by the fact that he died saving his life, after barely fighting against the Saiyans along with Z Fighters. He spent time on King Kai's world along with other Z fighters, until he helped them yet again in a fight against Frieza and later Androids, receiving massive power upgrades during those two events. While his relevance massively decreased in Super, what makes Piccolo so great is his journey to becoming a good guy. Even as a kid, he was never truly evil, but chaos and horror he saw throughout the world, as well as influence by his father, made him what he is. Until he started to fight for something and someone other than himself, even finding out who and what he really is, and where he'd come from. What I also like about Piccolo are several techniques he has, his ability to regenerate, and his interesting and unique form of training. Plus, he is easily one of more intelligent protagonists in the show, often being aware of things that are happening before everyone else.

Number #5 - Cell

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Cell is like evil version of Goku. He strives towards Ultimate Power, but not due to becoming the best fighter ever, but becoming a perfect being. Instead of training, he relied on Life Force draining. Instead of traveling to meet new fighters, he intended to travel in order to destroy. Still, he loved the thrill of fighting just like Goku, interested to test his capabilities and his opponent's, while also having a lot of respect for them. Ironically, this curiosity led to Gohan becoming the first SSJ2, and eventually killing Cell. Still, his intelligence was quite remarkable, and his hax is pretty absurd for a Dragon Ball character, possessing Saiyan's ability to grow stronger the more they get hurt, Frieza's ability to survive anywhere, and Piccolo's ability to regenerate, but on much greater scale. On top of that, he is technically responsible for the second death of series' main character, Goku.

Number #4 - Frieza

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Frieza's relationships with Goku and Vegeta make him an interesting and probably the best villain in all of Dragon Ball, something I think a lot of people would agree with. He killed Vegeta's father, erased his race, destroyed his planet, and turned him into a slave. By the same token, Goku's father Bardock was the last Saiyan Frieza laid eyes on ever (not including survivors and new generation), and the only one who encountered him face to face besides King Vegeta. Ultimately, it was the last survivor of the race he despised, feared and destroyed, that led to his ultimate downfall.

Number #3 - Son Goku

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It's Goku. He is the main character. No reason to explain why he is so high on this list.

Number #2 - Beerus

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Beerus is easily my favorite character from Super. His origin is clouded in mystery as far as I'm aware, but that is because it is irrelevant. He is the God of Destruction of the Universe where our main characters live in and destroys several planets for the sake of balance. There is not much we need to know about him besides the fact that he was actually responsible for planet Vegeta's destruction, although details were never provided (at least as far as I am aware, didn't watch the new movie yet). Like Goku and Cell, Beerus loves fighting, but has less passion for raw combat and is more obsessed with finding a rival who can match his might. Being the most powerful being in the Universe, the only one who could match him was his brother Champa, the God of Destruction from another Universe, and most of their fights are results of sibling rivalry and frustration, rather than challenge. Regardless of that, Beerus' incredible power, yet the ability to remain social, and even patient from time to time despite his short temper, is what makes him interesting. While I don't find his relationship with his teacher Whiz funny, I find it entertaining to watch. Beerus can be funny or used as comedy relief, but when he loses it, he loses it, and sometimes acts like a madman and sometimes is just calm and extremely intimidating.

Number #1 - Vegeta

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Vegeta is my number 1. I don't think that's surprising. There are a lot of fans of the show who prefer Vegeta over Goku, and I am one of them. I simply find him to be a cooler character, in multiple ways.


Top 20 Favorite Naruto Characters

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I already made like 2 Naruto lists so I figured I should make probably the most interesting one, my 20 favorite Naruto characters (in order). Order may change, especially when it comes to those from 11-20 because it is pretty difficult to come up with this list, and even more difficult to come up with the order.

Honorable mentions:

  • Orochimaru
  • Rock Lee
  • Third Hokage

Number #20 - Iruka

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I think Iruka deserves at least the last spot on this list. While he is pretty weak and has almost no screen time, the fact that this guy who has nothing to do with this kid Naruto who does not have anybody or anything, just comes around and acts like his father figure in more ways than one, is just beautiful. Despite the fact that he is the host of Nine Tailed Fox, the creature that killed his parents. And despite of that, he still becomes pretty much the only family the kid has. Shows how Iruka is just a good person, with no so called "shades of grey" cliches we often see in fiction. Which is even more creditable given the cruel reality and world we were introduced to in Naruto Universe.

Number #19 - Tsunade

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Tsunade was never really one of my absolute favorite characters in the series, mainly because she did not really do much. She fought Madara but her contribution to that fight wasn't as interesting to be as Ohnoki's. However, I still have to put her on the list due to the arc she was introduced in. I think she had one of the best character introductions in the show, mostly due to her experience and personality. It does seem relatively realistic. She is old, experienced, sad, jaded, tired and does not care about anything but wasting her years on drinking and gambling. In a way she is the opposite of Naruto, who is young, naive and has goals that seem ridiculous to her. But after seeing how motivated this kid is, also reminding her of the loved ones she lost, made her still find some hope and care in her heart, motivating herself as well to step in and do her job and become the Leader of her village.

Number #18 - Minato Namikaze

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I don't think it is surprising that Minato is on this list. He is the ultimate badass of the show in every way. Powers, abilities, behavior, reputation, statements and achievements. He has two of Naruto's trait mark techniques as well as coolest teleportation jutsu in the series. He was hyped up since the very beginning, and he eventually came back kicking ass with his own Kurama mode (which is dumb but still cool). A bigger question probably is, why is he so low on the list? Well that's simply because I don't find him that interesting aside from his badass moments, lore influence and just being a chill dude. Those characteristics are all pretty cool, but not enough to put him above on the list.

Number #17 - Obito Uchiha

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Obito was written pretty badly after he got unmasked. The reveal of him not being Madara was a great plot device in my opinion, and he was still equally intimidating regardless. Heroes trying to figure out how Kamui works during their fight was very very cool too. But his identity was too predictable at the end in my opinion, and while it was introduced perfectly, Obito's execution was bad. He was too much of a douche, repeated himself way too many times and the way Kishimoto wrote him, it does seem like the only way he did all this was because he could not get the girl (which I do not agree with but it was written that way). That said, Obito's life as Madara is a joy to watch. In some ways he is cooler than Madara himself. Instead of being powerful, he is mysterious and manipulative, and that sometimes made him even more interesting and intimidating than Madara himself. The problem is, at the end of the day, he was just coping Madara, and does not deserve enough credit for me to put him above.

Number #16 - Nagato

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After Itachi, Nagato is probably the most relatable character in Naruto. His origin was just tragic, and it focuses on real life aspects like war and politics. Which I really like because in Naruto, while a lot of characters are relatable, they often go through stuff that are impossible, but with Nagato, it is easy to imagine him in real world. Lost his parents in war, barely survived, lived like a thief and later tried to improve his weak and undeveloped country, only to lose everything in the process, becoming a broken man twisted by his own philosophy. Nagato is also pretty intimidating and mysterious during his time as Pain, because we had absolutely no idea who or what he was. It was really engaging to see all those questions being, more so asked than strait up answered. And he introduced us to the Rinnegan too.

Number #15 - Shikamaru Nara

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Shikamaru was this chill dude who was lazy and saw everything as pain on the ass. And he wasn't particularly powerful, just versatile. But he is arguably the smartest character in the show both tactical skill wise, observation wise and raw intelligence wise. The stuff he is capable of pulling out with his brain alone makes him way more dangerous. I think the reason why I like Shikamaru so much is what he is capable of accomplishing despite the fact that he is barely even a side character. Yet his achievements rival those of the main cast. And how he stopped being lazy and became a good leader was cool too.

Number #14 - Shisui Uchiha

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If not for the fact that Shisui has no real appearances, he would probably be way higher on the list. He was a member of the Uchiha clan, which he loved very much. And despite how badly the village treated the entire clan, he still remained completely royal to the village, going as far as to actually mind control the leader of his own clone to prevent attack on the village by the Uchiha (which was understandable partially given the circumstances). And still, one of the village's leaders, Danzo, stole his eye and almost killed him due to lack of trust. And again, despite all that, Shisui only wanted to protect the village (and the Uchiha if possible) regardless of circumstances, with zero hate or frustration. Even going as far as to give his remaining eye to Itachi to use it if possible, and killing himself to both give Itachi more power and prevent anyone from finding his body and use it for their own needs, all with the smile on his face. Shisui showed great care and royalty, impressive given that he was a part of clan cursed by hatred.

Number #13 - Itachi Uchiha

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Everybody loves Itachi. He is everybody's favorite. I don't think I need to explain myself. Why is he so low? Honestly, I kind got tired of seeing him, both from the show/Manga and the fanbase. Don't kill me.

Number #12 - Jiraiya

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Jiraiya is like combination of Iruka, Third Hokage and Kakashi combined. He is a father figure, mentor, supporter, teacher and sensei, and can also be goofy and funny at times. His relationship with Nagato, as well as the fact that he was a teacher of both Naruto and his father, indirectly giving him his name and becoming his Godfather, were all very touching. What was really cool about Jiraiya to me is that despite his experience, power, knowledge, training, wisdom and skill, his entire life was, as he himself says, nothing but a failure. He never really did anything he wanted and will never really be remembered for achievements that are his own. Still, believing he has one last job to do, he ended up failing, but still dying at piece with the knowledge that he gave everyone a fighting chance, and that the child he trained to bring peace to the world all along, will actually do it. Just not the one who he expected.

Number #11 - Gaara

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Gaara was introduced as the reflection of Naruto. They were the same. He was basically what Naruto would have become if he didn't eventually meet people who will become his friends and family. This turned him into terrifying yet sad monster, and his fight with Naruto made him learn how he feels, while also teaching Naruto that true strength comes from the will to protect yourself as opposed to Gaara, who at the time believed that true strength comes from caring for no one but yourself. And so on...

Number #10 - Ohnoki

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It's weird that Ohnoki is so high on this list, but he grew on me during mid War Arc. He is the only character besides Mu who to my knowledge possesses Kekkei Tota, and it's pretty badass ability. Dust release has only one jutsu, but it is basically transmutation. It is so powerful yet written in a way that is not broken. Aside from the fact that I consider Ohnoki to be the most powerful of the 5 Kage who faced Madara, and the fact that he has more fighting experience than anyone in the series up to that point, what really makes Ohnoki so interesting to me is his willpower. The whole "will of stone" was emotional, and seeing him stand up to God Among Men like Madara regardless of the fact that he is outmatched, was epic. And decades afterwards, he faces him again as an old man, and even with the help of other Kage, he is still outmatched. And despite all that, he deflects Madara's attack, saves everyone and keeps going. Madara even acknowledged the fact that he is the real problem, and in my opinion, he did the most impressive thing out of all 5 during their fight. And even after Madara easily dealt with their combined power, and proved to be capable of destroying mountains with a portion of his power, breaking the will of all the Kage and showing just how far above he is compared to them, Ohnoki still had will and hope to keep going. After Madara was able to resist Edo Tensei and remain in the world of the living, which broke the will of Kage even further, Ohnoki was STILL ready to fight him. Oh and him growing to care for all the Ninja even tho he was a douche at the start was also cool.

Number #9 - Killer Bee

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Killer Bee is just cool to me. He has cool character moments and is both skilled and powerful. He is not very funny even tho he is suppose to be, but I don't know. I just always find him entertaining when I see him on screen/panel. He just seems likable.

Number #8 - Hagoromo Otsutsuki

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Yes, putting Hagoromo here is weird, but I feel like him being responsible for all of the Naruto Universe is enough to give him a spot on this list. All the powers basically come from him (well his mother but, nobody likes Kaguya). But what I really like about Hagoromo is how he always wanted to connect people and make them understand each other, never wanting to use Chakra as a weapon. And he never let his power corrupt him like his mother, instead sharing it with others. His arc in the Anime was pretty much the only filler arc that I liked and finished. What I also like about him is how determined he was. He was ready to seal his mother, and even after endless fighting between his sons and their reincarnations, he kept watching them without anguish, still having the will and belief that eventually, a world he wanted to create will come, making him believe in Naruto and Sasuke. But still, he did not blindly believe they will succeed and was skeptical, unlike, well, anyone else in the show.

Number #7 - Kurama (Nine Tails)

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It's probably dumb to add Kurama here too, but I think he deserves the spot. I like how even after becoming friends with Naruto, he is still terrifying, intimidating and ruthless. And when he's not, he often trolls Naruto himself. Plus, he is absurdly powerful and what is always cool. What really made me like Kurama tho is how creepy he was during Part 1 and first half of Part 2. He really seemed demonic, and there was always this fear of him finally coming out and taking Naruto over, yet he needs his power to beat his enemies. Still, growing from embodiment of hatred to Naruto's ally was cool to see

Number #6 - Tobirama Senju

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My reasons for liking Tobirama are ironically similar to the reasons why I like his so called counterpart, Minato. The guy is just a badass. He can use Water Release where there is no water, he has both Shadow Clones and Flying Thunder God. However, he actually created them which is badass. Along with Edo Tensei technique. He has cool design in my opinion, he is obsessed with Uchiha in a way that is pretty much hilarious, has cool voice, and is overall badass and intimidating. His care for the village is what I think makes him cool, but unlike everything else, he has a hard heart, has a lot of will and is ruthless, looking at things more objectively than based on bias, something that is completely uncommon in Naruto. This is the case for Uchiha as well, as he did trust some Uchiha members. Plus, the scene where he killed Izuna was badass. Why he is so high on the list, I am not sure. For some reason, I just really really like the character, even tho he barely has any appearances.

Number #5 - Naruto & Sasuke

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These are two main characters so it's no surprise they are here. The reason why they are tied however? Is simply because I always go back and forth from liking one more than the other, and then changing my opinion later. I've come to a conclusion that both of which characters have the exact same amount of categories that piss me off, and that also helps with putting them on the same spot.

Number #4 - Might Guy

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Guy is the character who truly proves that you can be the strongest with nothing but hard work. Originally Lee was the main character who focused on that story, but he didn't really have any relevant fights after his (epic) fight with Gaara. Guy kept showing new levels of power, beating strongest characters around like Kisame, with his raw strength alone. Until he faced Madara who pretty much became the most powerful being ever, and almost killed him after beating the shit out of him with the 8th Gate (albeit Madara let him hit him and Guy had help from others during the fight). It was revealed that Guy's origin was pretty much like Lee's but in my opinion, way better, more emotional and makes more sense. And besides that, everything else about Guy is really cool to me. His personality, his voice and relationship with Kakashi are always entertaining to watch/listen.

Number #3 - Hashirama Senju

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I really like Hashirama. And I'm not sure why exactly. I really like his Wood Release. It's weird to have trees as to most powerful nature in the verse (mostly), and yet it looks broken and badass. The fact that he was hyped up to be the most powerful Ninja of all time (excluding Hagoromo) and that everyone is ripping their hairs out just to get a portion of his cells, I mean, it's pretty cool. He was so powerful, he turned all the Biju into his pets, and Madara Uchiha needed the strongest one to fight Hashirama and still lost. He also has a cool personality, being nice, goofy and wise, while also humble yet extremely powerful. And I personally find his history, life and relationship with Madara to be way better than Naruto's and Sasuke's, and I wish we had more chapters dedicated to their past.

Number #2 - Kakashi Hatake

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Kakashi is also fan's favorite. I don't think I need to explain why he is so high.

Number #1 - Madara Uchiha

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Yes, Madara is my number 1. And I know, you may disagree... but...