One of the few titles I actually really enjoy in ANAD. I hated the first issue, and some of the dialogue is kinda laughable, but it's been mostly great so far.
Marvel's comics has been shit for a while now. They probably don't care about the quality of their comics anymore considering how successful the MCU films are. Comics are just another piece of merchandise to get some extra $$$ in their eyes. However, some of their stuff is pretty good though, but most are mediocre as all hell.
Culture/enviroment are really the only interesting viables concerning race. Personality, capability, memorability are all valid aspects that actually define the characters in meaningful ways. There's barely any actual compelling stories to be told referring to a character's race. Almost all these characters are relatively bland and unmemorable, except for Kamala, X-23, Miles and Falcon (granted the later 3 have been established for years).
Falcon as Captain America was a mediocre choice. He doesn't bring anything new to the table other than playing second fiddle to Rogers. The whole symbol thing is just biased and honestly kind of pathetic. Nick Spencer has a history of being a heavy regressive liberal, making Red Skull look like an exagerrated version of Trump and demonizing anti-immigration viewpoints, shoving his biased and unrealistic take on politics everywhere etc. Falcon is a victim of his own writer, used as a tool to pander to specific, extremist political demographics and SJWs instead of actually telling a compelling story. He's blander than he has ever been, in a status quo that completely misuses his character and paints a hilariously distorted view of politics and the modern world to stroke his writer's own inflated ego. Kamala Khan is an interesting character, but she's too overused and I like her character for different reasons than you do. Miles is interesting due to his personality and character interactions, not because of his race/background, and I would vastly prefer if he had his own identity instead of being "the other Spider-Man".
Dude, are you serious? Wally West has arguably the most interesting character arc of them all. After Barry Allen's heroic sacrifice, he was forced to grow up quickly to assume his mantle. He had the most development, he frequently appeared in other media over the other Flashes, he was more flawed than Barry, he was the most capable, he had the best stories, he had the most interesting dynamics etc. None of these characters come close to Wally, at all. Most of them are downright shallow and inferior to their previous incarnations, heck, all of them are except for maybe Kamala. He's frequently cited as the best Flash, with Barry being the only one to even come close to Wally in terms of votes.
For some people, but not the majority. I've never seen anyone like any of them more than their predecessors. What did Jane Foster even do to be considered better than Odinson?
Your arguments are well put together, but they ignore all of the points that I have been contending from the beginning. You not finding something compelling does not mean that it is not compelling in an objective sense. Arguments and opinions are not facts, and "shallow", "inferior", "best", and "pathetic" are all words that have no substantive value.
Just because something is not the majority does not mean that it has no value. And the "greatness" of a character who has been around for 20 years cannot be judged in the same way as one that has been around for 5 years.
I've responded to pretty much every single claim that you've made. You have given me zero objective reasons for why the characters are actually good, just stating that you like them for their character interactions and struggles, to which I responded they were either useless and didn't bring anything new to that specific identity, like Falcon, were better off as their own character, like Miles, or were overused, like Kamala, or borderline bland and insultingly shallow, like Cho, and their race has very little to do with their character other than fullfilling some political agenda and pandering to extremist political demographics, and you did achknowledge that Marvel did indeed have a political agenda after all. That, and are their character dynamics really that much better, especially when practically all their predecessors had more to work with and had much more interesting interactions?
None of them have done anything worthwhile as their respective identites to make anyone care about them, really. You literally stated these characters were every bit as good as their white male counterparts and as legitimate as Wally West, a point you haven't elaborated on and one which you are already backpedling on.
Yes, it does, especially when the overall level of actual critical reception these characters have garnered from fans has been overwhelmingly negative. You might like Bucky as Cap more than Steve Rogers as Cap, but the general populace doesn't. That, and there's literally no objective reason to actually like any of them compared to their predecessors.
Just because I've used subjective words here and there, doesn't mean my entire argument is subjective, especially when I was describing how hollow these characters have been so far, characters you once claimed were on par with their predecessors, regardless of their date of origin. Also, arguments can't be objective? How does that even make sense?
Also, you criticise my argument for ignoring your counterpoints (something I did not infact do) yet you didn't actually answer my question: What did She Thor do to be considered better or on the same level as Odinson?
@knightsofdarkness2: I think Marvel wont risk changing too many at this point. While they can always do the simple 'universe reset' where everything returns to the point before any major changes; Spider-man One More Day and the like, I feel that they're hoping that forcing these characters into the spotlight and holding others hostage within major events will force readers to either buy certain comics or be left wondering about their favorite heroes. I've posted time and again the mediocre sales of these mantle pass characters from Sam Wilson to Miles Morales, none stand up to the classic and yet their comics persist despite making less than a third (or worse) in sales compared to more popular characters and often not even starting at such, their first issues (the mantle passes) all start relatively well but quickly lose readers by the 2nd or 3rd issue. This shows bland writing, inability to maintain readership and simply poor character design (in a literary sense, though possibly an artistic sense, some people do base judgments on how comics look as they are visual media). Sam Wilson is the best example as it's had consistently mediocre sales which only picked up for a single issue, The Funeral Issue, then immediately plummeted back to their spot of mediocrity.
Marvel has also flooded the market, making numerous comics, multiple times and stories; Invincible Iron-man, Infamous Iron-man, Spidey, Miles Morales Spider-man, etc. etc. this is also a poor decision as flooding the market can cause greater disinterest. New readers may not want to have to buy 3 or 4 comics to maintain a following of their favorite character, which returns to my point of characters being held hostage; Civil War, New Champions and then the solo stories of all these heroes make it so on average a comic reader, new or old, would need to purchase at least 3 comics per character to maintain a following of the events surrounding said character.
Actually, that is a very compelling argument. People tend to get bored of constant major events, especially when most of them are completely useless, like how they keep killing off major characters but bring them back like a year later. I have zero interest in getting any of the "RIP *insert important character that got killed off in Civil War 2* books because of this, because I know it won't last and they'll pull off the same thing 5 years later. All these unnecessary tie ins are making it impossible to follow any Marvel event in any meangingful way without killing your wallet with a knife. They'll revert to the regular status quo eventually, but the quality of their titles as of late are rather disappointing. I still think they can fit in more mantle passes here and there, and then resort to a status quo revert, however.
I don't think Marvel cares that much about comic sales anymore, especially thanks to the MCU films being breakout hits. They seem to care a lot more about media PR and good press. Also, I'm getting a little peeved at all the constant pandering Marvel does to extremist left-wing groups. It's getting out of control.
@knightsofdarkness2: I don't mind Kamala very much, in fact, when her series started I liked it a lot but Marvel has time and again gone out of their way to unnecessarily pander rather than show support to existing or develop new characters.
The other issue that seems to come up is parity and yet the discussion is always "there are too many white characters" when people choose to ignore that when these characters; Superman, Batman, Captain America, Iron man, etc. were made, America was majority white in an even larger majority then.
According to the Pew Research center, in 1960, when many of the most famous Marvel characters were made, America was 85% white and yet there is some expectation that there should have been more non-white characters? Why? Why is it wrong that any form of media represent that majority of its community?
It's also strange that those new characters or changed characters who are pushed to the forefront are in fact not in parity with how America is now anyhow. How many black super heroes are there? How many have their own series and are pushed up as more popular? Why are there so few Hispanic super heroes when there are more Hispanic people than black people? Currently America is about 63-65% White, about 16% of America identifies as Hispanic however 53% of them also identify as White or White Hispanic as they are known. This makes the total white population of the United States as approximately 71-73% white, so with a majority White and second majority Hispanic why are there so many famous black super heroes but so few Hispanic?
They'll probably do a bunch of extra mantle passes until all mainstream heroes are either black, female or hispanic at some point. There seems to be more demand for more black superheroes than hispanic ones in the media as well. Interesting question though.
@nappystr8: Here's the thing though. The Golden Age Green Lantern and Flash? They stopped being popular because superheroes stopped being cool after World War II. That's why so many public domain characters were from the Golden Age. They were all forgotten so Hal Jordan and Barry Allen becoming Green Lantern and Flash was no big deal. And their successors? They were better (and still are) than those two in every way. Wally West is a funny guy and had used his speed in ways no speedster ever done before. Plus, his comics were just way better. Kyle Rayner? His constructs were relatable to the reader's imaginations since he created anime-like constructs and cartoon characters. As for John Stewart and Guy Gardner, a Green Lantern Corps was made in the Silver Age so having multiple Lanterns wasn't a big deal.
Those All New, All Different Marvel characters? They are all uninspired and do not improve on their respective predecessors at all and were simply made to piss off long-time fans. At least the Hulk was an interesting take on Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde plus being the pure rage hero who destroys everything on sight was pretty much unheard of during the 1960s. Jane Foster, Riri, Amadeus Cho, and all these knock-offs are gonna go the way of Eric Masterson and young Tony Stark.
Marvel does not hide it's diversity agenda. Yes, the characters are black to be black, or female to be female, or Muslim to be Muslim. That is not a problem. Every character ever made was made to represent some group or idea. Race and gender however, are only two aspects of a character.These are not diversity clones of the characters that came before, they are legitimate legacy characters.
Have you read an issue of any of these series? Because I have read Sam Wilson Cap, Miles Morales Spider-Man, Amadeus Cho Hulk, and Kamalah Khan Ms. Marvel pretty consistently. Those four characters are every bit as unique and well written as Kyle or Wally. There are only two differences, the first being that you are thinking about Wally and Kyle with hindsight and nostalgia, rather than cynicism and resistance. The second is that Kyle and Wally are both white males.
Wrong, wrong, and disagreed. Most characters in fiction aren't meant to represent a group, they're meant to further the story and give it a unique spin/perspective. These characters aren't original, these characters don't give any real perspective and these characters are just there so the folks at Marvel can check the diversity box and get some free press. Falcon is already established, Miles has been established for years now, Kamala Khan is more of an actual legacy character, but she's starting to become annoying considering Marvel keeps shoving her everywhere, and she isn't that good of a character compared to Wally. Amadeus Cho is the literal definition of bland diversity clone, same with She-Thor. Wally is generally considered the best Flash since he had the best stories and had more time to shine, while none of these characters are as good as their predecessors and are just there to fill some diversity agenda.
But including characters of different races is the definition of a unique spin/perspective. On average people of different colors grow up in different neighborhoods, come from different cultural backgrounds, have different opportunities, and are generally treated differently. All of these are differences are ripe for original and compelling stories. If the character goes against trends and is not culturally or ideologically different than their white counterparts, the public will assume that they are anyway. That leads to plenty of avenues for a story.
Plenty of people read comics for the costumes, powers, and fights. Those are not my primary concerns. I am more interested in characters and character interactions. I love Marvel because they create characters who are grounded. I love Spider-Man because of the personal struggles he went through with poverty and being raised in a single-guardian household. I love Captain America, because he is a person out of his own time, trying to build a new life while not sacrificing the morals he developed in his former life. I love Iron Man because of his redemption stories; first making amends for creating weapons of war, and then his recovery from alcoholism. I love Khamala because she has to navigate the worlds of both her immigrant parents and her American peers. I love Sam Wilson more than ever, because now I have seen him struggle to represent a country that is growing evermore fractured despite a portion of the population who denies him as such a symbol. These new characters (and old characters placed into new roles) are all very consistent with Marvel's legacy of creating compelling characters.
What makes Wally the best flash in an objective sense? Nothing. He represents the favorite Flash of many people, but not all. I doubt he is even the favorite of a majority. For some people Jane Foster is their favorite Thor, for some people Miles Morales is their favorite Spider-Man, and for some people Riri Williams might one day be their favorite Iron Man. Let people have the choice. If these characters are as underdeveloped and unpopular as you claim, then they won't be around 5 or 10 years from now anyway.
Culture/enviroment are really the only interesting viables concerning race. Personality, capability, memorability are all valid aspects that actually define the characters in meaningful ways. There's barely any actual compelling stories to be told referring to a character's race. Almost all these characters are relatively bland and unmemorable, except for Kamala, X-23, Miles and Falcon (granted the later 3 have been established for years).
Falcon as Captain America was a mediocre choice. He doesn't bring anything new to the table other than playing second fiddle to Rogers. The whole symbol thing is just biased and honestly kind of pathetic. Nick Spencer has a history of being a heavy regressive liberal, making Red Skull look like an exagerrated version of Trump and demonizing anti-immigration viewpoints, shoving his biased and unrealistic take on politics everywhere etc. Falcon is a victim of his own writer, used as a tool to pander to specific, extremist political demographics and SJWs instead of actually telling a compelling story. He's blander than he has ever been, in a status quo that completely misuses his character and paints a hilariously distorted view of politics and the modern world to stroke his writer's own inflated ego. Kamala Khan is an interesting character, but she's too overused and I like her character for different reasons than you do. Miles is interesting due to his personality and character interactions, not because of his race/background, and I would vastly prefer if he had his own identity instead of being "the other Spider-Man".
Dude, are you serious? Wally West has arguably the most interesting character arc of them all. After Barry Allen's heroic sacrifice, he was forced to grow up quickly to assume his mantle. He had the most development, he frequently appeared in other media over the other Flashes, he was more flawed than Barry, he was the most capable, he had the best stories, he had the most interesting dynamics etc. None of these characters come close to Wally, at all. Most of them are downright shallow and inferior to their previous incarnations, heck, all of them are except for maybe Kamala. He's frequently cited as the best Flash, with Barry being the only one to even come close to Wally in terms of votes.
For some people, but not the majority. I've never seen anyone like any of them more than their predecessors. What did Jane Foster even do to be considered better than Odinson?
@nappystr8: Here's the thing though. The Golden Age Green Lantern and Flash? They stopped being popular because superheroes stopped being cool after World War II. That's why so many public domain characters were from the Golden Age. They were all forgotten so Hal Jordan and Barry Allen becoming Green Lantern and Flash was no big deal. And their successors? They were better (and still are) than those two in every way. Wally West is a funny guy and had used his speed in ways no speedster ever done before. Plus, his comics were just way better. Kyle Rayner? His constructs were relatable to the reader's imaginations since he created anime-like constructs and cartoon characters. As for John Stewart and Guy Gardner, a Green Lantern Corps was made in the Silver Age so having multiple Lanterns wasn't a big deal.
Those All New, All Different Marvel characters? They are all uninspired and do not improve on their respective predecessors at all and were simply made to piss off long-time fans. At least the Hulk was an interesting take on Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde plus being the pure rage hero who destroys everything on sight was pretty much unheard of during the 1960s. Jane Foster, Riri, Amadeus Cho, and all these knock-offs are gonna go the way of Eric Masterson and young Tony Stark.
Marvel does not hide it's diversity agenda. Yes, the characters are black to be black, or female to be female, or Muslim to be Muslim. That is not a problem. Every character ever made was made to represent some group or idea. Race and gender however, are only two aspects of a character.These are not diversity clones of the characters that came before, they are legitimate legacy characters.
Have you read an issue of any of these series? Because I have read Sam Wilson Cap, Miles Morales Spider-Man, Amadeus Cho Hulk, and Kamalah Khan Ms. Marvel pretty consistently. Those four characters are every bit as unique and well written as Kyle or Wally. There are only two differences, the first being that you are thinking about Wally and Kyle with hindsight and nostalgia, rather than cynicism and resistance. The second is that Kyle and Wally are both white males.
Wrong, wrong, and disagreed. Most characters in fiction aren't meant to represent a group, they're meant to further the story and give it a unique spin/perspective. These characters aren't original, these characters don't give any real perspective and these characters are just there so the folks at Marvel can check the diversity box and get some free press. Falcon is already established, Miles has been established for years now, Kamala Khan is more of an actual legacy character, but she's starting to become annoying considering Marvel keeps shoving her everywhere, and she isn't that good of a character compared to Wally. Amadeus Cho is the literal definition of bland diversity clone, same with She-Thor. Wally is generally considered the best Flash since he had the best stories and had more time to shine, while none of these characters are as good as their predecessors and are just there to fill some diversity agenda.
@knightsofdarkness2: But it can't be pandering when it'stars a white guy or is it when it's a white guy it gets to be a creative choice and no motive at all behind it? I'm still waiting for uproar for Barry and Wally to stop calling themselves the Flash and get new names and the same goes for every other white guy using the name of an established hero. Of course that will never happen.
Doom may not be the "official" Iron Man but he'll still be calling himself Iron Man while at least Riri will get a new name.
America is still majority white, there is no pandering to happen when the characters reflect the majority of the community and it's not pandering when black actors play black characters. People love Black Panther, no one complained when a black actor was chosen to play him but I and others, clearly complained when a white actress was chosen to play an Asian character; The Ancient One.
All these characters, were designed from a place of creativity as they were by their original creators. Changing them to another race or gender is pandering because it takes less effort to simply race/gender swap a character than it does to support an existing one or create a new one.
It's why Marvel has done so many mantle passes with almost or completely brand new characters of a different ethnicity and/or gender from the original mantle holders.
Or is it just a coincidence that in an incredibly small span of time; Spider-man, Hulk, Thor, Captain America, Iron Man, Wolverine, Ms. Marvel, have been replaced or had the spotlight moved from them to these new characters?
@king_nomarch: Do you seriously think Marvel changing several of their character's race/sexual preference/gender is a coincidence? It's all just SJW pandering to get more press. Miles and Kamala were different enough to get their own identity, except for Miles, who's also referred to as "Spider-Man" like Peter Parker, but he'll hopefully get a name change. The rest are blank as all hell, except for X-23 being the new Wolverine, but I still prefer regular Logan.
Doom is not the official new Iron Man though, Riri is. He's like a secondary Iron Man. No reason why he took up the mantle yet but it'll be explained I guess.
@doc-holiday: Kasper's race did change the race of the Black Panther character. Why bring up the Captain Marvel name when I only mentioned the Photon name. Jim Downing didn't get as much hate as Miles, Kamala, Cho, Thor, and Cap, even the rage over Doom being Iron Man is near nonexistent.
Why did you edit your comment and left my tag out and only tagged Holiday when you were clearly addressing my comment? Luckily it showed up in my feed fast enough. Either it's just an error, or you intentionally did it.
Again, he's still technically a minority. I was correcting you about the Photon thing. Jim Downing isn't popular enough to get a lot of hate from SJWs, and I'm sure if they did that now they would get a lot of hate. Doom is a different type of Iron Man though, while Riri just seems like she's the new, official Iron Man because she's a black female.
Edit: Whoops, it was an error. You edited out and tagged me now. Thanks, and sorry for the accusation.
@knightsofdarkness2: Kasper did replace him and where was the outrage when Genis took the Photon name from Monica? And Jim Downing replaced Al as Spawn.
Kasper is mixed though, and is African/Jewish. He also had a very brief stint as BP, only actually taking his mantle for 12 issues in T Challa's own series, hence why I said "none of them really replaced Black Panther, unlike She-Thor who practically made Odinson inconsequential".
Monica conceded the Captain Marvel name to Genis and took the Photon name instead, she did not concede her Photon identity to Genis. Heck, the characters aren't even mainstream. A lot of people hated Jim Downing, but not due to his race, but due to him being a terrible legacy character. If they did that now, I'm sure the writers would get a lot of flame.
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