KFVnegs

Star Wars Canon debater ---------------------------

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#1  Edited By KFVnegs
@greysentinel365 said:

We all know he's still Palps lapdog by RotJ. Even Legends didn't draw this out this much.

Its not even cool for the sake of it. Its convoluted.

The quote from ROTJ can be interpreted in many ways. It still doesn't diminish the fact that they will face off one final time with seemingly nothing holding them back from going all out. Vader's attachment to Luke might be his undoing again which is why he doesn't defy the Emperor in the movie. Palpatine is already shownto play with Vader's emotions again.

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KFVnegs

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@kfvnegs: And we needed 10 entire issues going over the same thing because…why? It takes 10 issues for this?

Because Vader has an accurate gauge of Sheev's power from their fight and now aims to become individually stronger. He is clearly performing at a level far beyond his normal and he is portrayed as genuine threat to the Emperor. The previous battles didn't have much of a build up. The first was Vader being arrogant and the second happened in a span of a single comic.

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#3  Edited By KFVnegs

@thevivas said:
@kfvnegs said:
@wolfrazer said:

You know it dawns on me these with the comics. Can we move on from this already? How many times are we going to retread old ground with this Kyber stuff and Vader's 'power'? This is what, the...3rd time now for the Kyber stuff and I dunno what...the 5th time for Vader's 'power'? It's getting a bit repetitive and not really all that interesting. What next are we gonna have the 4th Vader vs Palpatine issue?

The entire run is reaching its climax and Vader facing Palps one last time has been building up for over 10 issues, I don't know what you expected lol

How many times is he going to face Palpatine when we know he doesn't beat him?

He doesn't have to "beat" him, it can still be an epic battle. I also don't get the obsession with mentioning the "vast" amount of times they've faced each other as if it hasn't happened just twice in near 50 issues.

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KFVnegs

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You know it dawns on me these with the comics. Can we move on from this already? How many times are we going to retread old ground with this Kyber stuff and Vader's 'power'? This is what, the...3rd time now for the Kyber stuff and I dunno what...the 5th time for Vader's 'power'? It's getting a bit repetitive and not really all that interesting. What next are we gonna have the 4th Vader vs Palpatine issue?

The entire run is reaching its climax and Vader facing Palps one last time has been building up for over 10 issues, I don't know what you expected lol

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@dertilt said:

Obi-Wan will never be above Yoda lol

he already is

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Luke can be dismissed with a single lightning bolt and Vader can at best block them for a time before being overwhelmed. Not sure what their win condition is supposed to be.

What makes you think Vader would be overwhelmed before Sidious stopped using lightning?

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the current hype will fade away just like all momentary hype eventually does .

but the posts will remain .

100% serious , all out RoTJ sidious murders them both .

This didn't age well, did it

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I don’t see Yoda struggling with Kenobi for very long. Even if you argue they are relative in Force, you still need to get Kenobi above Yoda in sabers, which is quite a task.

Yoda disarmed Sidious, who beat three Jedi Masters in seconds and dueled with Mace afterwards. Kenobi’s best saber feat is matching Anakin. I’m giving the edge to Yoda due to Kenobi’s knowledge of Anakin

Kenobi’s best Force win was against Vader in the Kenobi show. He displayed incredible power when overpowering Vader, who pulled down a ship. Yoda’s best Force feats are matching Sidious, gesturing a giant trawler out of the air, and holding a mountain. I’d put this at or above Kenobi. Either way, there isn’t a definitive enough difference for this to come down to Force.

It comes down to sabers. If Kenobi goes Soresu, waiting for Yoda to make a mistake, it doesn’t happen. Yoda is a proven duelist. If Kenobi goes offensive, Yoda wins more quickly and decisively.

Nobody that favours Ben argues he is relative in the force, they argue he is superior.

Sidious is stated to be inferior to Anakin in sabers and Kenobi matched him for the whole fight.

You can't really compare LA feats to comic ones, the latter will always be superior. Vader has much better feats than Yoda and far more consistently.

I'd take Old Ben's defensive dueling over Yoda's offense seeing how he competed with a far stronger Vader for a significant amount of time

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@lord_tenebrous:

Well, we've no indication that Mace Windu grows more powerful from the age of fifty to fifty three. In fact, we're told that his powers have quietly diminished since the age of forty, as is the case with the other Jedi Masters. The dark side has been growing, casting a shroud over the galaxy, dampening the potency of the light side's senior practitioners. Yodamightbe considered more powerful in the Force after his trials under Qui-Gon Jinn and the enlightened priestess, but that's a nebulous gauge, and his starting point was already decreased, so at best it may cash out as a recovery of his former connection.

Mace is never stated to have regressed during the war. The Dark Side growing in the galaxy doesn't necessarily mean the Jedi grow weaker. Anakin and Obi Wan both grew vastly stronger throughout the war, as did other Jedi. If it's not directly said that Yoda or Mace got weaker then it's safe to assume they became stronger.

It's not that Yoda was only equal to Count Dooku; it was that both elder wizards were ultimate masters of their sides of the Force --beyond masters, actually -- and therefore a contest of their powers would be futile. They were as powerful as you could get -- no mortal could overpower them "pretty comfortably," if at all; Darth Tyranus' own master, Darth Sidious, would only have been marginally stronger, the hairbreadth's edge that Master Yoda would have held had his ability to use the Force not been somewhat diminished. On that note, Lord Tyranus had reached the zenith of his power by that point. So, if we fast forward to three years later, he can only go down. Possibly, we can assume that the increasing galactic darkness might generally swell his strength, but that'd be it.

That's cool and all but Dooku is stated to have grown in power aboard the IH and being in his peak. Anakin was stated to be stronger than any Jedi after the he defeated Count. Kenobi was off guarded, which was the only reason he got taken out so quickly. Anakin as of ROTS is on par with Yoda. Kenobi's mastery of Soresu is always described as second to none, so if anyone can hold off Mace's attacks long enough it's him. So Anakin is a near equal to a Yoda who is superior to his AOTC version and Kenobi arguably has the perfect style to counter Mace. Even if Kenobi doesn't win, Anakin is still more than capable of dealing with Yoda and assisting Kenobi against Mace.

We have seen this duo in action against Count Dooku, and while they pressed him, engaging in a great sword fight, it didn't exactly finish well; Skywalker, stunned and downed, and Kenobi, suspended in air and strangled. Skywalker's rage turned the tide of that battle, finally getting the better of the otherwise superior Count. Yoda's demonstration of fighting prowess on Geonosis showed why he was considered the Master, and Mace Windu is second only to Yoda.

I agree with all of this (although I repeat that Kenobi was off guarded according to the JR novel) but Dooku as of ROTS is stronger than either AOTC Yoda or Mace and Anakin can fight on par with him (even if he is unable to overcome him).

We've seen Mace Windu's powers withstand and overwhelm those of the Emperor, at least when channeled through his lightsaber. He'd be even stronger in this fight, and he's facing inferior opponents.

Why would Mace be stronger against the duo? Anakin per Sidious himself was possibly stronger than him or could at the very least rival him. And I don't see why Anakin is inferior to Sidious in combat as he is described as "peerless with a lightsaber" as of Season 7.

If Mace Windu found himself in a two-on-one against Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi, he'd take them down singlehandedly, after the fashion of Darth Maul versus Kenobi and Qui-Gon Jinn. As would Yoda, with an even greater advantage. They'd need to clear Count Dooku before facing off against Yoda or Windu, let alone Yoda and Windu.

Not at all. Mace would heavily struggle to penetrate Kenobi's defenses alone, throwing Anakin in the mix is a death sentence.

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KFVnegs

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Setting the incarnations of Mace Windu and Yoda to Attack of the Clones is to the advantage of Team 2, for their powers aren't quite as diminished by the growing galactic darkness as they will be by the end of the Clone Wars. Yoda is the master of lightsaber combat, and Master Windu's fighting abilities are second only to the aforementioned Grand Master -- if you get within range, you're dead. Team One presents some formidable opponents, but they aren't going to win; Obi-Wan Kenobi isn't as powerful as Anakin Skywalker, and both were outfought by Count Dooku aboard the Invisible Hand in Episode III; while Skywalker is generally considered stronger than the Count, he is not as skilled or experienced, and if the elder swordsman had gone for the kill in their final duel, Skywalker probably would have fallen. Based off of what we have seen from the dynamic duo, they wouldn't be able to defeat Master Yoda or Windu alone, let alone together.

It's be a good fight, but somewhat decisive.

I disagree here. Remember Yoda and Mace in AOTC aren't as powerful as they became in ROTS. Yoda is more or less as powerful as a Dooku who is inferior to his ROTS version. Anakin should be able to take that pretty comfortably. Mace on the other hand is unquantifiably below Yoda, at least power wise. Kenobi's defenses should be able to hold him long enough before Anakin deals with Yoda and joins Obi Wan in a 2v1 which Mace will lose badly.